JOEL WAS WRONG - Last of Us ENDING EXPLAINED

Joel made a choice in the finale of the Last of us, and that choice was wrong. In this video, we break down the moral ambiguity of the Last fo us, the ending, and why Joel was wrong.
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Written and Edited by Pavel Terehovsky (pavel8866.wixsite.com/pavelt) [e-mail]
Hosted by Ryan Arey ( / ryanarey )
#LastOfUs #Finale #EndingExplained
After a long journey, Joel and Ellie finally found the fireflies. But the hope for a happy ending with the cure turned into a heartbreaking bloodbath.
Joel chose violence and killed everyone. He saved Ellie, but in doing so he condemned everyone else.
Doug: yeah but Ellie is safe now, so that’s what matters.
Well that’s the question, isn’t it? Was Joel right to do it to protect Ellie? Or was Joel wrong, and in his selfish need to protect his surrogate daughter he robbed humanity of a second chance?
This is a debate that goes back to 2013, when the original game came out. Both the show and the game create this powerful moral debate about Joel’s actions.
Well you saw the title of this video, so you know where we stand. Joel was wrong.
But that doesn't that mean the fireflies were right.
This is the beauty of Last of Us. There’s a complicated moral debate in every aspect of this story. Every perspective is sort of flawed. Nothing is simple, and there are no easy choices.
This is why exploring Joel's decision is so interesting. But as complicated as all of it is, the simple fact is this: Joel was wrong, and this video will explain why.
Alright, first let’s bring everyone up to speed on Ellie’s condition and why she had to die to make the cure.
Ellie’s mother, Anna, was infected with Cordyceps while she was pregnant. It happened mere seconds before Ellie was born, but Cordyceps works fast, and it infected Ellie since birth.
Ellie lived with the infection since she was a baby, and the cordyceps grew with her, producing a chemical messenger that tricks normal cordyceps. And that’s how she’s immune when she’s infected as a teenager.
The fireflies believe that Ellie’s immunity could create a cure.
But to make the cure, they need to remove the cordyceps from Ellie, a process that will kill her.
Doug: why’s that?
That’s because the cordyceps infection grows inside the brain. So the fireflies’ doctor needs to remove the cordyceps from Ellie’s brain, and this procedure would kill her. Joel couldn’t allow the fireflies to take Ellie from him. So he killed all of them.
20 years earlier, he was powerless to save his own daughter. Sarah’s death broke Joel. He even attempted to kill himself. Due to dumb luck, he survived, and after that, he kept on surviving.
Though it was a bleak existence, he was a shell of a man who did some really horrible things. He had no real purpose, nothing to live for. He became a cynical man, a murderer, a monster even.
But he regained his humanity thanks to Ellie.
Joel needs Ellie. She’s his purpose now, he must protect her at all costs. Even if it means killing everyone who threatens his surrogate daughter.
So from Joel’s point of view, there is no choice here at all. Joel is a parent, and what parent wouldn’t do anything to protect their child, cure or no cure?

[@ScreenCrush]

Was Joel right or wrong?

[@TheShunts]

He shouldn’t have lied to your mom

[@Sandeep-xp9zo]

Right

[@bryanheilman4376]

Gonna say right, the threat of the infected doesn't seem so bad to me, and I don't trust the fireflies.

[@Starwarsgames66]

I respectfully disagree. I believe Joel did the right thing.

[@banonKING]

Definitely VERY wrong. But understandable, and makes for a much more interesting story.

[@paulcoulonjr]

She explicitly said that she wanted to go places with Joel after the procedure. That means that she expected to survive after the process.

[@sujoydutta920]

Dude she had no idea about the process when she said, things can change. It was 90% chance that Ellie would have sacrificed herself for the humanity but the cure wouldn't have worked because of these worthless Fireflies and Joel would have taken his life but Ellie gave him the purpose to live for fight for, so its a hard choice but "This is the way"

[@paulcoulonjr]

@@sujoydutta920 that still doesn’t change the fact that they never asked her consent. They need to clearly inform her that the procedure will kill her and give her the opportunity to say a simple yes or no.

[@jamesandrewchan2791]

Of course she did. However, if circumstances presented that she could not survive the procedure and looking at how ellie literally went through hell and high water to find the fireflies, its safe to safe she is more than willing to give up here life, just for a possibility of a cure.

[@jenishmaharjan9655]

​@@sujoydutta920 Indian ☕☕☕

[@isabellamartinez8656]

I would understand if she was told she would have a chance to live but a greater chance to die and she said yes to it but that show and the game both show that she was just told that she could be a cure. Joel was right to save her but was wrong to lie to her, it’s a complicated situation cause they jump to the extreme before looking at all options. Killing Elie shouldn’t be the first choice nor should it be a choice that isn’t told to her.

[@us3990]

Everything Marlene, the fireflies and the doctor did was so incredibly stupid and reckless. Immediately drugging (and then killing) Ellie without her consent, for a surgery that they had no idea would work, and was presented as a hunch at best, was asinine, immoral and heartless. Thinking Joel would just accept this and walk away was beyond ridiculous. They 100% brought it on themselves.

[@mdb45424]

yup and this was shown in the first game which they tried to retcon to justify bashing joel head in. infact in the game the fire flies were way less prepared having failed extracting from another immune they happend on. could be that their head surgeon was an animal vet or that he was trying to make a vaccine vs parastic fungus ( doesnt work ) and that the fire flys out right left joel for dead after knocking him out and kidnapping ellie, leaving him with out equipment uncounious and to rub salt in the wound unpaid lol. but no they try to make joel the bad guy

[@mdb45424]

after reading transcript from 1. I must take back the vaccine qoute. the animal vet was aiming for gene therapy as a means to counter the fungus into a symboitic relationship. somehow

[@coachleif]

100%. This doesn't even factor in, even if they do make the cure that may not even work, if it did work, FEDRA would violently take it from them. Can we really expect word to get out there is a cure and then someone doesn't violently murder all of them and take control of it? What about the concept of seeing if Ellie can pass immunity on hereditarily? Totally reckless by the Fireflies and they got what they deserved.

[@TheIronDuke9]

"without her consent" - do you think the concept of consent would exist in a post-apocalyptic world? She got treated better than she could've ever hoped by them wasting valuable drugs on her. She'd be lucky if they gave her the mercy of just chopping her head off right away when they found her but most likely they'd just tie her down and dig into her skull while she's still awake

[@Bkgiest]

​@@mdb45424holy crap spoilers!

[@HenryZhoupokemon]

Joel realized the real cure was the friends we made along the way

[@FelixSunMusic]

HAHA love that comment

[@ladyyunie]

😂😂😂

[@nawepmukwan7502]

😭😭😭😭😭

[@shortangel333]

Most of the people Joel met along the way died tho...

[@senpai5016]

I found an NPC fr

[@Agk3los]

3:30 This is the thing that always confused me. You have literally one shot at this and the Fireflys jump DIRECTLY to fuck it lets kill her. Just goes to show they were actually incompetent and taking a shot in the dark. No reason Joel should sacrifice his "daughter" on the hopes that the Fireflys might accidentally come up with a cure. Hell, just before Joel has to make his decision she tells him how incompetent they are by saying how she had a whole gaggle of protectors and barely made the journey herself.

[@dp2120]

Good point about Marlene’s comment re: the journey

[@sdaniels7114]

I agree with much of what you say, but why lie to Elie then? Why not tell her it was a radically stupid plan that had no real chance at success?

[@dianeranville7752]

Are fireflies incompetent?… Or are the show's writers incompetent? Are the villains stupid, or are writers unable to write any credible villain?

[@nadiaga7929]

​@@dianeranville7752they're not villains, they're desperate and desperate people do really stupid things.. and the majority of them are also amateurs. I don't know what you saw, but the writing was brilliant both here and in the source material.

[@dianeranville7752]

​@@nadiaga7929 Well, I saw a show trying to make me empathize with a selfish murderer, using heavy strings like "poor guy lost his daughter" ^^" I'm conscious that the show is well rounded and most people actually empathize with Joel. It just didn't work on me. Also, if the Fireflies were supposed to be portrayed as desperate amateurs, it's not well shown in the series (maybe better in the game?). That's why I said (quite provocatively I admit) that there's a writing problem. It's difficult to tell whether the fireflies are serious competent people or not. According to how they're treated in terms of tone, they sound serious. But some of their actions look hasty and clumsy. But it's not obvious whether they are *actually* clumsy, or the script is clumsy. For example, why do they tell Joel that they are operating Ellie? Why don't they wait until the surgery is over, keeping Joel on sedatives? You might say "because they are amateurs". I'll say "because it's a video game script and it has flaws". The point is, I don't think the show is even trying to prove that the fireflies are wrong and Joel is right. The story is just saying that Joel is desperate, because if Ellie dies, he'll shoot himself and this time he won't miss. He chooses to put his own survival above the lives of dozens of fireflies and above the hope of a cure for all humanity. His attitude is clearly selfish. And in the end, it doesn't matter whether the fireflies are competent or not: either way, Joel would have done the same choice. That's why I was arguing in the first place: a lot of people seem to think (or want to believe) that Joel did the "right" choice, or that his choice is somehow justified. But I don't think so. I think the show is telling us he's selfish. That's all. (Buuuut, at the same time, the show is also saying that selfishness is OK as a motivation, which justifies the whole thing in a different manner - and which is also the reason why I didn't like it). Sorry for the long comment o/ I hope my point of view is clearer.

[@krio.]

It was wrong of the Fireflies to sacrifice Ellie without her consent. Joel just returned the favor, to sacrifice all of them to save Ellie.

[@qmanization2375]

Joel also did what he did without Ellie's consent and lied to her. I completely understand why he did what he did. But it was honestly the most selfish thing he could have done. Ellie even feels this way. Everyone has a right to feel however they feel about the ending, but it's massive cope to not think what Joel did was incredibly fucked up.

[@dmagyo6631]

@@qmanization2375 the biggest cope

[@bandigustin1038]

She WANTED to help the world

[@CorbCorbin]

@@qmanization2375 And what if this one doctor, in a small lab, is wrong? They’re working off a theory, that the doctor has. It may be something that only works in a procedure at birth. It also doesn’t stop the creatures from killing, or does it stop all the horrible people, who took over groups, snd want to keep their power. Also, as said in the video, the Fireflies are pretty shitty themselves. Just because one woman seems trustworthy, doesn’t mean the all are. I mean how many Fireflies even cared about there being a girl who may have a cure? Why aren’t they all there? It’s actually an annoying ending, just as I thought about the game. I think Joel’s decision is good writing, and how many parents, adopted or blood, would react. If she’s the only one in 20 years, and they still aren’t sure, that cutting this out of her brain will work, I think more testing is needed. Why waste the one person on a maybe, unless there are more people who are immune?

[@madtitan0825]

@@CorbCorbin everything is a what if tbh, not everything have a guarantee sometimes it’s just a leap of faith

[@SpammytheHedgehog]

Joel went Mandalorian in this episode without any armor.

[@chiefbd]

This is the way

[@zero1188]

He wasted his plot armor. Should of saved it for next season

[@indrashinaga]

@@zero1188 yeah, he really NEEDS that

[@DarthPsAyTko]

"This Is The Way!"

[@brucewayne8158]

I can’t wait for Joel to get killed, scumbag deserves it.

[@june7963]

So a huge distinction in the game was that simply breathing spores could get you infected, and that shit was everywhere... in the show, becoming infected requires a bite, which can be avoided. So in the TV series the onus of not accidentally becoming a zombie is WAY more on the individual. You'll mostly likely live if you just try. But I think the bottom line has always been this: there was only going to be an emergency vaccine to prevent people from turning IF they got infected, not a cure or reversal for those already mutated with Cordyceps. Ellie's sacrifice wasn't going to suddenly poof all the fungus away, everyone would still have to figure out how to work together and contain the spread. And they can do that and stay protected and live 100% healthy, happy lives WITHOUT a vaccine if they just fucking coordinate without the power trips or revenge arcs (this is why Jackson works... Maria for Prez 2024). Sacrificing Ellie just to make a whoopsie-daisy-I-done-got-bit equivalent of the day-after pill is not remotely worth it, and Joel knew it.

[@nottopcat5956]

Good point, but too much credit to Joel at the end imo

[@sneakernomics]

The stupid reason they didn’t do spores is because pedro got tired constantly wearing a mask on madalorian

[@chistinelane]

Not worth it to you from 5 miles up maybe.... But ask a child that just got bit if it's with it or not. You're missing the trees for the forest.

[@RealBradMiller]

"Time heals all wounds." "It wasn't time that did it." Gets me right in the feels, every time!

[@berad3574]

It definitely wasn’t time. Speaking of: Joel was almost dead, then within hours went full Rambo and killed everyone with no problem. Terrible, terrible mistake by the show.

[@RealBradMiller]

@@berad3574 nah, as someone who has had to take penicillin, when it starts to work, you feel better pretty darn quick, and I think add in some adrenaline and it's not that far off. It is TV, so you have to give them some leeway. That's why people stop taking antibiotics early instead of finishing off their prescription, and this can cause issues as well.

[@shortangel333]

@@berad3574 He didn't have to go full Rambo those cannibals were incompetitant as fuck my guy

[@colonelb]

Neil Druckmann said in the podcast that when they were making the game and playtesting it with audiences and asked them, "Did Joel make the right choice?" That if the playtester DIDN'T have kids, they were split 50/50, but that the playtesters who DID have kids were in 100% agreement with Joel and I think that reveals a lot about human nature and parenting and what changes in your brain when you have kids. Joel would rather her live and hate her the rest of her life than for her to not live at all, and that's parenting in a nutshell. And there is a thought experiment called "the prisoner's dilemma" which this reminds me of, because almost everyone would sacrifice OTHER PEOPLES kids to save the world while also NOT being willing to sacrifice THEIR OWN which also speaks about the nature of humanity. Neither Marlene nor Joel were willing to wake Ellie up to ask her what she wanted to do (which would be the obvious logical compromise) for the same reason: they were afraid of her answer.

[@javiermd5835]

In addition, Joel already experienced that kind of loss when Sarah died. Metaphorically, the world stopped for him at that point (“your watch is broken” after all).

[@Odd_pictures]

This was so well put..

[@EMTedroni]

A sacrifice is something you choose to give up. Ellie gave her trust to Joel because he *loves* her like nobody she can remember ever has (including Marlene) and she loves him right back. He could not/would not sacrifice her to the Fireflies' purposes. By contrast, the Fireflies could not *sacrifice* Ellie, they could only *murder* her... and hope the ends would justify their means.

[@diagonotter]

Yes to all this. I was just saying.This very thing. No parent would ever not side with Joel. As for Marlene, who wants to bring back a working society, needs to be reminded that there is a reason doctors get parental consent for children under 18. She is 14, and her shoulders are too small to carry the weight of the world.

[@lovinlorne]

@@diagonotter - I’m not convinced Marlene wanted anything but another way to control FEDRA. I think it had less to do with “saving the world” and more to do with giving the Fireflies the upper hand.

[@RedSonya4]

Did they really need to remove ALL of the Cordyceps from Ellie’s brain? Cordyceps replicates so quickly, I would think that just a biopsy-sized amount would be sufficient to replicate enough cells in a lab for their nonexistent cure they don’t have the technology to create anyway lol. But Ellie should’ve been given the choice. So, both the Fireflies and Joel were wrong.

[@bjorn00000]

It's a story. Cordyceps can't function like that in the real world, which means that the needs of the doctors are specifically defined by the plot.

[@mikeevans4585]

I believe you hear the medical team ask if they have enough power to even perform the procedure so I take it that generators are the source, not a very promising hope for a "moonshot" outcome

[@Girruuth]

You're starting to hit on the problem with the Doctor in the game. No GOOD Doctor would put Ellie under the knife within a few hours of meeting her. A GOOD Doctor would run blood and tissue tests doing a lot more research before even coming close to cutting open the skull of the only known immune person on the planet.

[@bjorn00000]

@@Girruuth Part II provides more context about the decision and the moral crisis that he and Marlene had with it. Still, it's a game and a TV show. The point was not to have a deep discussion of biochemistry or clinical methods, but to present a moral issue and see how the different characters face it.

[@tm5173]

Idk, I think it's feasible that the firefly's "doctor" may not have been a surgeon, much less a brain surgeon. Especially given the fact that he was spearheading the effort to create a vaccine. Maybe that's his specialty. Maybe all he is skilled enough to do is remove the whole thing and kill her. Plus, maybe they don't have the proper tools to do anything but that anyway. It's important to the plot that this was a life or death choice for Joel, but I also think it works logically.

[@evanragland4930]

Firefly's plan was the equivalent of I know a guy who knows a guy who might be able to get a cure if we just sacrifice your daughter ... yeah we all knew what Joel was gonna do next whether you played the game or not 😂😂😂

[@hannahwatkins7992]

No the point of his decision is that she IS the cure, and he takes that from humanity. In the real world, yeah no one would be 100% certain, but in the show and the game, they know that she is the cure. So the writers want us to ask ourselves "If the world were facing such a crisis, would it be better to sacrifice one life to save everyone, or let that one person live and doom the rest of the world." I think she should've been sacrificed. She will die anyways, why not for a greater cause, why not to end unnecessary suffering.

[@snarf0596]

​@Hannah Watkins should we sacrifice one life for the world most people will say sure. Then you tell them that life has to be thier daughter or son 99% will say no.

[@Lilyanna08]

@Hannah Watkins I despise the argument "it's for the greater good". She is not the cure , you are reaching here. She is immune and maybe that one doctor has an idea that may work for finding cure. Look at how long it took us to make a COVID vaccine when we already had technology to make vaccines against viruses and we had already had experience with SARS-CoV-1 epidemic. This is one huge experiment with who knows how low chance of success. Their moral high ground looks pretty suspicious.

[@nathanpont3831]

@@hannahwatkins7992 i think you missed the people like David who rule over this world. Fedra are tyrants and the fireflies would be no better, just better at hiding it until everything inevitable crumbles (like every one of their labs and outposts since leaving Boston, which they also failed to take but sure got a lot of people killed). Tommy's town in Jackson is an outlier. there is nothing else left to save. a cure in the hands of the fireflies just puts them in control. "want the cure? you work for us now."

[@user-dnf83n0s8sg9u]

@@hannahwatkins7992 No, they don't know that she is the cure. That's one of the key parts of this whole dillema. Lol?

[@Azenithf]

The cure isn't hope. Communities like Jackson is what hope truly looks like.

[@izzyxblades]

Agreed!!!!!

[@laratheringfabian]

PERIOOOOD you’re so right !!!! The outbreak happened 20 years ago and people have learnt how to adapt and survive. Jackson is the proof that life can go on without a cure

[@ThrghmyEyeZZ]

For how long though? Matter time.... that's not living its surviving

[@midnightfury4584]

@@ThrghmyEyeZZ The train of thought, though, is that people help within the community. They keep the power, food, clothing, etc. going. Surviving is more like something within a FEDRA site.

[@nathanpont3831]

the cure is a means to control "wanna be immune? get in line soldier. kill those fedra guys and you'll get a shot."

[@joeschmo7834]

The moment the Fireflies took that choice from Ellie and took her ability to consent away, they were automatically placed in the wrong of this situation.

[@Dubaikiwi]

They are always in the wrong, they're killing a child. But its the lesser evil.

[@prestonalexander3904]

@@Dubaikiwi how is killing a child without her consent the lesser evil lmao

[@ThrghmyEyeZZ]

What about Joel lying about his part in the fireflies demise to Ellie? What's your thoughts on that....

[@lour8237]

@@prestonalexander3904 lmao?

[@chrisreed6191]

@@prestonalexander3904 Sacrificing 1 child to potentially save humanity (which includes countless children) is a risk worth taking.

[@jonathanguerra4332]

Facts: 1. Ellie is tricked into getting a procedure that will kill her without her knowing. 2. There are no guarantees that a cure will successfully be obtained. 3. Joel killed many people (innocent or not). 4. Marlene played god by deciding who lived and who didn't. She decided to sacrifice Ellie and spare Joel. 5. The doctor decides to proceed with surgery knowing that the patient will die. 6. Joel lies to Ellie twice. Thoughts about the facts mentioned above: 1. As a patient and human being, Ellie should have been informed about the consequences of the procedure and let her decide if she wanted to go on. 2. Is this the only doctor left in the world? What about second opinions? What about building a panel of health professionals who could discuss and come up with different solutions or at least a high rate of certainty that the procedure will probably get a cure? All this while keeping Ellie in the loop if she decided to go on with the procedure. 3. In a civilized society, killing is bad and that's the end of it, but we can understand why he did it. Ellie is his surrogate daughter and no father would walk away knowing that he could have done something to save her. He knows that what he did is wrong, but for Ellie, he would do it again if he had to. 4. Marlene should have talked to both of them about the truth and let them decide what to do. Lying a child into getting surgery that will kill her is messed up. She claims to know what Joel is feeling but this is a lie she believes in. You couldn't decide to kill a child for the greater good unless you don't care about the child. 5. So ethics are out of the door with this doctor as well as doctor-patient confidentiality. Why the rush for proceeding with the surgery? Since Ellie seems to be the only person immune to the virus, shouldn't she be studied, respected, and informed? This doctor decides to kill a girl for the possibility of getting a cure, not informing the patient about the outcome of the procedure. 6. No healthy relationship can be built on a lie. Joel shouldn't have said that there were others like Ellie. This hurts her and took away from her the idea that all that she lived through and the sacrifices made were not in vain. But, he received a second chance when Ellie asked him to swear and he looked her in the eyes a lied again. He should have been brave enough to tell her the truth and deal with the pain of her reaction. Killing and lying are wrong, and the decision-makers in this episode did this as they pleased. The right and ethical decision involves telling the truth and taking no lives without consent, but it is difficult to imagine that this could have happened given the world the characters live in and the individuals they have become.

[@paulamersy]

regarding 6. in the game player can find the records that there were "past cases", which essentially means that they have experimented on other people who were infected but were unable to find a cure, but notes that Ellie's immunity may be the key to creating a vaccine. Killing Ellies even for possible vaccine is stupid .Just because Surgeon thinks that he can "hit a milestone in human history equal to the discovery of penicillin" and Ellie wants to sucrify herself for humanity is waste of unique resources. If the purpuse of lie is to convince someone that dying is not only the purpose of life should we still say that lying is wrong?

[@chrisquaresma7136]

Don't worry cuckman is such a genius he foresaw that Joel would be such a dirty nasty little liar and gave Ellie a chance at life, that he makes sure he gets what he deserves. Dirty little liar. What a GENIUS revenge porn story mmm

[@hamadalkaabi2160]

Facts Joel killed a possibility of saving millions of lives on his daughter complex which he should go to therapy to look at 😂 what a joke even if it was my own daughter I won’t mind sacrificing her for the greater good

[@Ronruk]

@@hamadalkaabi2160bro you sound like a 13 year old edge lord.

[@hamadalkaabi2160]

@@Ronruk You think so ? Am 20 btw and am sorry that I have more emotional stability then you. That am willing to make decisions for the betterment of others. Instead of trying to insult me like a 13 year old would why don’t you actually try to justify what Joel did ?

[@jim568]

I'm a dad, I'd attempt the same choice Joel made. Any parent who loved their child would do the same

[@blackdandelion5549]

As a Mom I agree and if Ellie's Mom were around I'm sure she would have a throw down with Marlene after she promised to keep that baby safe.

[@michaelshigetani433]

@@blackdandelion5549 I could see Elle's Mom working with Joel, back to back.

[@sneakernomics]

He’s not her dad. She never gave him that privilege

[@michaelshigetani433]

@@sneakernomics she may not have explicitly said it, but they behave as father and daughter.

[@sneakernomics]

@@michaelshigetani433 your mom may not have said it but she behaves like I’m her daddy

[@robertzenniful]

I could be wrong, but just gauging by Ellie’s facial expressions. I don’t think she believed Joel, but she had him tell her what she wanted to hear.

[@nadiaga7929]

that's exactly it, she's in denial, acting was on point! you could tell just watching Joel's face that he lied, little tells on his face

[@alaskahelo]

What would be the point of telling her, "Yeah, I butchered my way through a dozen people to get you out." That is his burden to bear and his alone.

[@KarlyNicole]

"You've kept him alive so that he can die at the proper moment. You've been raising him like a pig for slaughter!" - Professor Snape

[@lovinlorne]

Yes! I thought the exact same thing.

[@SvElAdKe]

Yep

[@Dubaikiwi]

Yeah, but imagine if the books had ended with Snape refusing to let Potter sacrifice himself, which results in Voldermort killing everyone in Hogwarts and then people saying Snape was the good guy.

[@SvElAdKe]

@@Dubaikiwi That's a bad comparison because there's actual risk there. In Last of Us most people are already dead. It's a foolish cling to hope, for the possibility of salvation. A better comparison would be if Luke Skywalker joined his dad in villainy. The world already sucked so him joining the dark side would suck but wouldn't change much

[@ThrghmyEyeZZ]

All humans in this world have a part to play

[@brendannoerper7717]

Ellie should have known and been able to make a decision

[@Halfcraft4224]

But the thing Joel didn’t want to admit was that everyone knows she would have said yes and he couldn’t accept that he would lose her. She pretty much did make the decision already

[@chaseb5376]

@@Halfcraft4224 Exactly

[@elishawilson5342]

Bro she clearly would've wanted them to go through with it

[@MrTensaikan]

Ellie's decision wasn't going to matter, she was going to be killed by the fireflies either way which is why she never got a choice. Ellie's dialogue throughout the episode shows how conflicted she is and when faced her own mortality, she might have chosen to live.

[@RuminatingRaptor]

@@MrTensaikan She thought her blood was the cure, not her brain, so basing what she would have done when her life wasn't on the line doesn't make sense. Plus, there's no guarantee the cure would even work.

[@danilomello5632]

Joel was right: he saved Ellie so that in the future some decent and capable doctor could examine her and discover a cure.

[@TheSundayShooter]

It's hereditary, Ellie's father is the cure

[@debrh.b]

That's what even a doctor said . That killing her right away wouldn't make sense . They should have just taken blood and ran tests . The doctor they had didn't even know what he was doing !

[@stanm4410]

This dilemma is always framed as Joel taking the choice away from Ellie rather than what actually happened: The fireflies taking the choice away from Ellie first, and then Joel taking the fireflies' choice away from them. People often say that "It's what Ellie would have wanted though. She said it couldn't have all been for nothing." But that's definitely not clear in the original game or the show. Because she also said that she would go anywhere Joel wanted after it was over. She only thought they needed to draw her blood and run tests. Had she known ahead of time that she would have to die she might not have ever said "it can't be for nothing." And even if it was likely that Ellie would choose to sacrifice herself, it's also very likely that her decision would be driven by her survivor's guilt and recent mental trauma. We also would have to assume that Joel wouldn't be able to talk her out of it or she might reconsider her life's worth due to the bond they formed on the journey. And on top of all of that, the fireflies completely botched the whole situation. If Marlene was so certain that Ellie wanted to give up her life for the cure, then the fireflies should have woken her up first and recorded her consent on tape. Then play that recording back to Joel (or anyone else who questions them in the future) so he has to accept it as her decision. But they didn't inform Ellie that she would have to die because they had already decided they were going to kill her REGARDLESS of her answer. So they didn't want the chance of her saying "No", because then they would all have to live with the guilty conscience of killing an unwilling sacrificial lamb. Which would make them just as bad as FEDRA or worse. Not waking Ellie up was extremely cowardly on their part and probably just as wrong as Joel lying to her at the end. People tend to forget the fireflies' role in this messed up situation because of how they are reframed to be more empathetic in the sequel.

[@iamerror5751]

In the game, you can find a voice recording at the medical facility that, unless I misunderstood, heavily implies there have been others like Ellie that were unsuccessfully experimented on and expresses hope that the next one would be successful. I always thought Joel was referring to that at the end. Regardless, I think that omission gave the end even more of a bleak mood in the show.

[@0verWay]

This should've been added to the series, too. At least have Joel find a note or something after/before he kills the Fireflies

[@chrisquaresma7136]

No no the writing is perfect and soooo amazing. Cuckman is the perfect master story genius story teller. They totally missed the mark on portraying the proper feeling the ending fight had in the game compared to the show. All they had to do was slow it down a bit, have Joel find the audio in the hospital and have him have a flash back of Sarah and then relate it to ellie. Instead we got a rushed fight scene where he just magically Rambos down open halls. The only part they did justice was killing the doctor quickly and Marlene quickly, both a mercy Joel gives them but is not given by Abby. Sometimes I wish I could forget both games, my life would be fine without the story.

[@abhisumatparashar]

@@chrisquaresma7136 Do you not fucking understand how the human brain works? This is exactly what goes through the minds of people that carry out school shootings or bomb blasts: nothing. That’s exactly what Joel felt. He wasn’t thinking about anything, nothing was going on in his mind other than saving Ellie.

[@axtonjcranston1064]

Really? That would have made the show so much better! I wondered if Joel was lying, but this video says he did lie!

[@mdb45424]

@@0verWay they left it out cause the director is going for his retcon. so hes trying to justify killing joel of next season. In the old game there is no issue that ellie death would have gain humanity nothing.

[@Zintag]

As a dad, I'm on Joel's side

[@ogierthedane6025]

exactly!!!

[@michaelal20]

That and this cure wasn’t saving shit, the people would fight for control of the cure and infected weren’t going anywhere.

[@cky7765]

Yes sir

[@chizeru37]

Yes!, there is no choice..

[@toddbarr2735]

Yep, there has to be another way. don't effin kill my kid.

[@lexluthor5358]

Joel's decision isn't selfish cuz no one knows if it's even possible to produce the cure. Family and the loved ones always comes first. Go Joel!

[@filmgirlLisa]

Yes...to selfish people.

[@kingmuzzy8275]

Blinded person

[@alien777]

It is so selfless to Kill a child. It is Selfies to expect another Person to die for you without every asking them. No they are surly willing to die for murders becouse that is what i need to believe so i can be cool with sloutering a child. Dehuminising a girl like men and Media too since ages. You take her agancy away like the people in the Show. You see her as a Tool not a person. Jole is right becouse he sees a Person what he dose to get the right outcome is horrific but understandable. Look at her as a Person not a cure she is a person. Murderer dehuminace there victims you see who is in the wrong i hope.

[@krazak2863]

@@filmgirlLisa selflessness is for the weak and for the delusional. Ironically, there really is no such thing as selflessness because people like you would love to kill a child just for YOU to survive. You can deny it all you want, You don’t care about others. You only care about yourself. Such irony.

[@hannahwatkins7992]

No the point of his decision is that she IS the cure, and he takes that from humanity. In the real world, yeah no one would be 100% certain, but in the show and the game, they know that she is the cure. So the writers want us to ask ourselves "If the world were facing such a crisis, would it be better to sacrifice one life to save everyone, or let that one person live and doom the rest of the world." I think she should've been sacrificed. She will die anyways, why not for a greater cause, why not to end unnecessary suffering.

[@Ic3h0rnEt14]

The worst thing that can happen to a human being is losing their child. Joel, or anyone in his situation, was not about to voluntarily go through that again.

[@mbogucki1]

Yeah, causing the extinction of the human race is worse.

[@eme.261]

@@mbogucki1 - It's the very rare human being who would sacrifice someone they love for the world. A larger quantity would likely sacrifice themself, but not the person they love above all others. It's basic human nature.

[@hannahwatkins7992]

@@eme.261 Not everyone is that selfish, believe it or not. Joel doesn't know how to process his loss. That's why he saves her. That's what the writers said. They said he was selfish, and didn't know how to handle his rage.

[@eme.261]

@@hannahwatkins7992 - Most people aren't honest about or lack awareness of that level of self-centeredness. Neil Druckmann revealed that during the game's creation, before its release, they interviewed many individuals and asked them how they felt about Joel's decision. 100% of parents said they would absolutely do exactly what Joel did. It was 50% - 50% for those who weren't parents. The parents were honest-- they knew-- and those who weren't parents had yet to learn just how deeply the urge to protect one's reason for living can truly go. Was Joel's choice selfish? Yes. That's judgment, not understanding, and when it comes down to the moment, it's irrelevant. The choice will be made. A loving parent who chooses the world over their child may as well choose to pass with their child. They'll be ending their own life soon after that, anyway.

[@bjorn00000]

What's interesting is that in the official podcast, Druckmann said that while opinion was split evenly amongst people without kids, parents were 100% behind Joel.

[@OziJo1]

Yep. It’s a no-brainer for me as a mother. The fact that Joel doesn’t hesitate shows how much he has bonded with Ellie throughout the course of the season. “I got you baby girl” was the final layer. He was all in and thus his decision was inevitable.

[@VenomtheOne]

I'm a person without kids and i'm easily on Joel's side. I mean, what "Humanity" would Joel be saving by giving up on Ellie? Rapists? Thugs? Cannibals? After the outbreak, only the worst of Humanity remained, so who cares, really? Besides, there's no guarantee that Ellie would generate a cure, and it would 100% kill her in the process either way.

[@bjorn00000]

@@VenomtheOne He'd potentially be saving his brother and everyone else in his town.

[@Azenithf]

Nah, there is no outcome where Ellie dying was the right one. Even if her death did make a cure. A cure doesn't always mean hope.Jackson rebuilt a community just fine without one.

[@VenomtheOne]

@@Azenithf exactly.

[@kambam1851]

The doctor really brought a knife to a gun fight

[@bdbear10]

😂

[@jermainelong6789]

Hot take from a father: His only wrong was lying to her....

[@tomadon]

If they wanted Joel to consider their side. They should have explained it to them without kidnapping Ellie. Plus they are quick to cut up the only immune person they know. Its an extremely risky situation.

[@jamesandrewchan2791]

They weren't willing to risk debating. In their eyes, ellie was the hope for humanity. Given the situation, it was a reasonable decision. I would have put joel in a cell handcuffed till the operation was over, just to be sure.

[@tomadon]

@@jamesandrewchan2791 kill the only person with immunity on sight. That’s the decision you’re siding with. So no testing, research, or developing alternatives. Kill the only person immune and they already know how she got immunity. Joel did the right thing. It’s not like they are going to stop an outbreak they’ve been living with it for quite some time. There plan was to kill the only person they knew to have immunity on sight WOW.

[@richardbarton5910]

​@@jamesandrewchan2791 it was unreasonable maybe Joel's did not know this but the cure wouldn't save humanity humanity was already done for.

[@josepharrington8391]

AND HE WOULD HAVE MURDERED YOU LOL@@jamesandrewchan2791

[@jryanw1159]

Henry isn’t a comparison to Joel at all. Henry obviously understood that his brother was no longer in there. Ellie was still Ellie.

[@morningowl43]

This is what I love about both the game and the tv show. With the game, you’re playing Joel, you’re in his shoes, you don’t care who you kill or mow down just as long as you save Ellie. The feeling of anger surges through you and you continue to play the last level until everyone is wiped out. You as a player feel justified in your actions since you are the one playing Joel, you are the one that took Ellie halfway across the country, who the hell are they to take them from you? As with the TV show you’re not Joel, you’re watching joel, you can’t do anything about it and to see him kill everyone out of selfishness and PTSD. In the game you feel justified, in the show there is no justice. Two sides of the same coin. 10/10 television.

[@Xuejinyuan]

There still is justice in the show. Just different perspectives.

[@CBH0072]

P

[@jaskierdelettenhove2995]

Joel killed everyone out of love to Ellie, not out of selfishness and PTSD.

[@samuelcharris2511]

Really like you take on it. Feel the same as you. Game make you feel like the character, most of people will empathize with Joel in the game, but in the show makes you think about his actions.

[@morningowl43]

@@Xuejinyuan my point exactly just vice versa, one can see the game as no justice/justified actions while another can see a total opposite with the show, and vice versa again, it’s all two sides of the same coin like I said, it’s what makes TLOU a masterpiece in storytelling that we’re still arguing about if Joel was right or wrong a full decade later

[@aidanquinn2282]

When Ellie's mom had her. I thought it was handled pretty quickly The infection might not have spread to Ellie at all by the time the cord was cut. I personally think Ellie got infected from the bloody knife her mom used to cut the cord. I rewound and she didn't even wipe it off after stabbing the zombie

[@blackdandelion5549]

I saw it too and not even a shirt wipe for the knife. . . . .

[@abcron3788]

The irony is if Joel let the fireflies kill Ellie and they failed to make a cure, the same people saying Joel made the wrong choice now would say he made the wrong choice then, especially since it's so obvious they had no idea what they're doing.

[@Sandsawks]

Not only was Joel right but Marlene was wrong. She had the pieces of the puzzle on how/why Ellie was immune and there shouldn't had been a rush to kill the only known living person who was immune. The Fireflies didn't even consider any options they just went to the extreme and I don't think it was to save humanity. It was to make their own lives "better".

[@mwheeler37]

Infect a bunch of women in labor and see how it goes. 👀

[@chrisquaresma7136]

And what does Joel get for all this? Revenge porn!!

[@summacee2759]

Right, I think in the end when Marlene begs for her life it reveals her true colors. SHE wanted to live. You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become a coward. What i took from it was that for marlene, It wasn't about saving the world. It was more about saving hers and the fireflies legacy

[@Dubaikiwi]

@@summacee2759 Lol, wtf? When someones BEGS FOR THEIR LIFE that shows their true colours of ... not wanting to die?

[@summacee2759]

@@Dubaikiwi yes. Like how they say in your last moments you reveal your true self. An honorable warrior accepts their fate and whatever led to their approaching death. If she was for her cause she would have died believing her choice was the right course of action but what we see is regret. From her not allowing ellie to have a say in her sacrifice, aswell as breaking her promise to ellies mother reveals a major lapse in her character. Of course ellie would have chosen to sacrifice herself but only because the weight of the world has been placed on her shoulders, on top of everything she has been through. Marlene in my opinion was taking advantage of ellies vulnerability to get what she wanted. If she could do it over again i bet she wouldn't have crossed joel to save herself

[@Gwilherm]

I think both parties (joel and marlene) were wrong in this situation.

[@Alfieliu78]

Exactly!! They should've let Ellie to decide, period.

[@SheikhAhmadShah]

​@@Alfieliu78But Ellie is just a kid. She is not an adult person.

[@ImperiusRex74]

This is the way.

[@harryo82]

How was Joel wrong?

[@chaddejong3942]

I agree they are both wrong for stealing Ellie's agency Though I think Joel is more wrong Marlene steals Ellie's agency because she believes the cure is too important to risk Ellie not being willing to sacrifice herself and Marlene is willing to sacrifice Ellie and a part of her own soul for the cure. Joel steals Ellie's agency because he KNOWS she will sacrifice herself for the cure and he is not willing to sacrifice the part of himself that is fixed now that he loves her.

[@hanielrodriguez4496]

When this game came out in 2013 I was in 6th grade, played on release finished it, and was burdened with the decision on if Joel was right or wrong, now not only have I passed middle school, graduated highschool and on my second to last year of university, I still for the life of me cannot make the decision on If Joel was right or wrong.However, something that I have found peace of mind in over the years is knowing WHY he did what he did and understanding that it wasn't some irrational choice made by some middle-aged man and the show adds more layers to the WHY which I love. But my silver lining my middle ground the melatonin that helps me sleep at night is the simple fact that it should've been Ellie's decision regardless of what Joel did or what we can say Ellie would've chosen to let them kill her the fact that she was robbed of that choice is what matters. So yes in a way Joel was wrong AND Marlene was also wrong, she lied to Ellies face instead of being upfront and letting her choose like a adult regardless of how hard she fought to get to that point and how many people she personally knew that died to get Ellie there marlene shouldn't have lied to Ellie and even if Ellie didn't wanna be killed and wanted to stop the surgery and Marlene didn't care and let it happen anyway at least she would've let Ellie die with some type of dignity and Marlene would have to had lived with that terrible decision for the rest of her life but THAT was the choice she had to make and was ready to make but the choice was robbed from Ellie and in the show, we get another layer to why Marlene was even more wrong as well because we see her relationship with ellie mom and stillllllll lied to her face and didn't give her a choice . Joel and marlene were both in the wrong for many reasons but the beauty of it all is that they still made very human decisions. Even in a post-apocalyptic world we still see humans making very human decisions if it's for love , revenge , or even selfish self-desires, these ppl have to make these choices and that is the beauty of the last of us. I think.....

[@masterYoshimistsu]

Marlene told Joel that they MIGHT get a cure from Ellie, not that they WILL. And while, yes Joel just didn't want to let Ellie die because of selfish reasons, Marlene was willing to sacrifice Ellie, the only immune survivor, for a possibility that they might get a cure that they have no idea how to reproduce or distribute. Joel's selfish action was right.

[@Babylauncher3000]

Both Marlene and Joel simultaneously being right and wrong within their own context as a characters is why the ending is so thought provoking. Joel does a terrible thing for a selfish reason. Anyone who would harm her (even for noble reasons) is an enemy. That much is undeniable.

[@brucewayne8158]

Oh spare me, it’s to fix the human race.

[@smg6013]

What selfishness? Its love...

[@smg6013]

@@brucewayne8158 f*k human race

[@brucewayne8158]

@@smg6013 Oh shut up, this world is screwed. Taht child is gonna get gangbanged and almost did in their road. It’s a terrible idea but Joel should’ve did the right thing. I can’t wait to see Abby carve his head open.

[@lacrartezorok4975]

Marlene doesn't have proof that the brain surgery would be successful or even necessary. For what everyone actually knows they could have actually killed humanity last hope. They should have made many test on Ellie before deciding they had to open her brain.

[@tauriusmagnamus3281]

Druckman put a scene in this episode to focus on this subject. When he was walking down the hospital, he passed an drawing of a White Elephant and 3 monkeys. The elephant can be either seen as the "elephant in the room" or "white elephant gift" motif. A problem both Joel, Marlene, and even Ellie had to face. The "3 monkeys" maxim of "Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil." is also something all characters are facing. Not wanting to face/speak/hear the truth of their situation.

[@chrisquaresma7136]

You spelt cuckman wrong

[@ThrghmyEyeZZ]

Reeeeeach

[@RyanBruss]

There’s a scene in the game where they find a voice recording from someone at the Colorado lab who is very pessimistic about the research, saying it had been going on for years and they had nothing. I think that was a miss by not including it in the show. Given how Ellie became immune, there is 0 chance she’s the only one. What was wrong was the fireflies not getting consent from Ellie before the procedure and for also not doing more tests prior to putting her in that position.

[@kaleidoscopechameleon3067]

Ellie still gets aggressively attacked by the Cordyceps Runners and Clickers. The way the show explains the "immunity" is that the infection doesn't spread in her body because she already has Cordyceps in her body so it recognizes her as already infected. This would make her not ""immune" but Asymptomatic and a carrier of the virus. The Show hints at her blood possibly transmitting the virus. I don't think the doctors in this world would have the ability to make a vaccine from material collected from Ellie, and if they did it would still have a chance of just transmitting the Cordyceps and killing them. I think its more likely the Cordyceps infected new born Ellie and spread through her system but could never take control of her brain and nervous system because babies aren't fully developed and lack what the Cordyceps need to take control, not having what it needed the Cordyceps spread and then went dormant. Now when new Cordyceps gets introduced to her system they sense themselves already present and don't spread thru her body. If this was the case then Ellie doesn't have immunity and none can be developed from her.

[@mdb45424]

correct. basically the solution would be gene therapy. the games lore back this up . Babies are full of stimcells in some areas for a few months as bones firm into place. they wouldnt have gotten this info from killing her since it just show what they already know from their examanation. Of course this is lore form the game and the showrunners decided to gloss over that for reasons ;3

[@ShelbyT5034]

Ellie wasn't given all the information to make the decision, so as far as I am concerned Joel was only wrong in lying about what happened. [I was asked to delete a statement I made here about information we learn in LoU2 as it's considered a spoiler. I am not clear on how much time needs to pass before we can discuss a subject or make comments about things on the internet. Three years seems a long time to me, but due to how many people stated it was spoilery, I now need to ask, when is it safe to talk about topics?]

[@jryanw1159]

Nor is she, at only 14, old enough to make the decision.

[@adriandenton6637]

Spoiler huh

[@Scott.Sandifer]

@@jryanw1159 Exactly. This is the type of decision a *parent* should make. (Which... is essentially what happens.) But to *Ravena-B's* point, no. Telling her places the burden of that choice she wasn't allowed to make squarely upon her shoulders. Joel _should_ have taken that lie to the grave. He was wrong to confess in Part II.

[@dps0610]

@@Scott.Sandifer disagree. Him confessing is just further showing the love he has for her. He knows he fucked up, but you can only lie to those you love for so long. Especially when they know you’re lying

[@evatesche]

Thanks for the spoiler..... ☹

[@nicholasgarrick8855]

Feel like so much of this could have been avoided if the fireflies didn't just throw Ellie's consent out the window. If Joel could have given time to see Ellie to talk about the procedure and Ellie given time to talk to him ,I feel like she could have convinced him that was what she 100% wanted to do with her life, and was ready to lay down that sacrifice. While it would have still hurt to let her go at least Joel would see that it was in fact her choice to go through with the brain surgery, and respect that. So if we're choosing teams on im personally siding with Joel on this one.

[@davidd.3555]

Pretty sure in the game she did know and she agreed to it. Idk why they left that out of this.

[@ignacioiturrieta9570]

​@@davidd.3555 Nope, she didn't. Only in part II she knows de true

[@davidd.3555]

@@ignacioiturrieta9570 that literally makes no sense. They’re all dead by then, so they either told her before surgery or never.

[@Ronruk]

@@davidd.3555they literally said in the show they didn’t tell her so she wouldn’t have any fear

[@midniteoyl8913]

@@davidd.3555 They never did tell her.

[@chrisv9000]

I love that this finale, especially this portion being so close to the game version as well, is opening up the same discussions as before. There are right and wrongs, black/white/greys, and personal interpretations. I hope the future installments keep this going

[@whaisnmaisn]

there is only one right decision and im 100% backed up with proof, evidence and by science 1. The "Doctor" in the show and in the game has literally no experience in neurology 2. Ellie is the ONLY persoj on this planet thats immune and they are killing her because of a hypothesis that is realistically speaking completely stupid..... even if these messengers were to only be produced in the brain tissue, you would only need to do a biopsy 3. to make a vaccine u need neurologists, doctors, immunologistsetc... (very many of them) and a high end fully functioning lab and hospital and also test subjects and very good knowledge of the cordyceps for this to even work 4. even if they really had to kill elli, the chances of a vaccine working the first try are slim to 0 5. the fireflies are a hated group among the whole world, they are seen as terrorists so how would they deliver that vaccine 6. and last but not least, IF this vaccine produced messengers that tell the cordyceps that the person is cordyceps and therefor doesnt need to "transform", how would that cure those that are already trasnformed? it would only stop those to get infected that are not already..... this wholw shit makes no sense and i bet they will go with the story of the second game and try to make us hate ellie and love abby even tho joel did everything right....

[@calgoulden8223]

Good video I really enjoyed your analysis

[@christinaj.2867]

We don't even know if the cure would have worked. There must have been a way to keep Ellie alive incase they needed more later.

[@mdb45424]

before retcon no chance in hell would a vaccine work. the fire flys were understaff, under equip and going about the fungus the wrong way. the " doc" wanter to collect white blood cells from the brain since he couldnt find any in her blood....... the games lore says as much in audio tapes and files you can find in last level.

[@Dubaikiwi]

The youtube clip addresses this, if you ignore the fact that this fictional story was telling you it would have worked, you're failing to address the philosophical question. Also, it's kinda hard to keep someone alive once you get to the fungus growing inside their brain.

[@dgmilloway]

​@@Dubaikiwi The problem is, the viewer can't just ignore all the realistic details that would be required to get to that philosophical question. Kill Ellie and save the world vs Save Ellie and doom the world is nice and all, but that's not the circumstances that the story gave us save through mere assertion that those were the circumstances. The fireflies botched what they were doing. In reality, the chance of finding a cure this way was vanishing small and not worth the risk of the life of the only immune person they had. The world they built told us there were pockets of civilization like Jackson, and that even enclaves like Boston FEDRA was growing it's population, so humanity wasn't doomed. They were surviving, and it looks like they were evolving a way to live with cordyceps. ie Ellie. Even if a cure was found, facilities and transportation did not exist to mass produce and sell it. The small amount that could be made would, more than likely, trigger more death and destruction as factions fought for control. The reasons are endless for why saving Ellie was the right thing to do. Lying to her, not so much. But saving her, yes.

[@whaisnmaisn]

​@@Dubaikiwi 1. The "Doctor" in the show and in the game has literally no experience in neurology 2. Ellie is the ONLY persoj on this planet thats immune and they are killing her because of a hypothesis that is realistically speaking completely stupid..... even if these messengers were to only be produced in the brain tissue, you would only need to do a biopsy 3. to make a vaccine u need neurologists, doctors, immunologistsetc... (very many of them) and a high end fully functioning lab and hospital and also test subjects and very good knowledge of the cordyceps for this to even work 4. even if they really had to kill elli, the chances of a vaccine working the first try are slim to 0 5. the fireflies are a hated group among the whole world, they are seen as terrorists so how would they deliver that vaccine 6. and last but not least, IF this vaccine produced messengers that tell the cordyceps that the person is cordyceps and therefor doesnt need to "transform", how would that cure those that are already trasnformed? it would only stop those to get infected that are not already..... this wholw shit makes no sense and i bet they will go with the story of the second game and try to make us hate ellie and love abby even tho joel did everything right.....

[@javiermd5835]

“If somehow the Lord gave me a second chance at that moment, I’d do it all over again” I’m with you, Joel!!

[@Dubaikiwi]

I'm not. Joel murdered lots of men and women Firefires, plus thousands of men, women and children who will get infected, to save his surrogate child he selfishly needs and knew would disagree. Why should the girl at the start of the show die, but not Ellie?

[@javiermd5835]

@@Dubaikiwi a father will kill the whole world for his child, and Joel already experienced that kind of loss. Love can be that destructive, as harsh as it may sound.

[@Rubiecat]

@@Dubaikiwi because he has the chance to save Ellie for sure so he takes it. imo Ellie doesn't owe humanity her sacrifice just like people don't owe others the organs they can live without

[@javiermd5835]

@@Rubiecat the world already died for Joel when Sarah died. As Tommy said “that the world stopped for you doesn’t mean it has to stop for us”. And, as he claims in this episode “it wasn’t time”. No one is asking anyone to root for Joel or the Fireflies, but at least we have to see where they come from.

[@arpitshivhare217]

@@Dubaikiwi they'll were working for a bad thing so it's fine

[@robertjarvisii984]

As Marlene explained, this "cure" wasn't a for sure thing. Ellie should have had a choice, but also known all the possible outcomes. From my POV, Joel was right, because Ellie's survival was more sure than a possible cure/vaccine.

[@MeowCatReturns]

Let’s assume the fireflies can create a cure from Ellie (which is a stretch). There isn’t a situation in which a child can consent to die. It doesn’t matter if it saves millions of other people. Asking a child to make a sacrifice they can’t fully understand is unethical. And when you realize that Ellie would have made that decision out of guilt/shame/trauma it becomes even more unethical to ask that of her. Ellie can find another purpose. She can’t find another life. Ellie doesn’t owe the world her life.

[@DushawnxDaisy]

Haha, ethics in an apocalypse… Joel was the epitome of ethical

[@janschmid281]

Joel doesnt need a cure, Jackson is his perfect world without any looters or infected. And as a wise captain once said "we dont trade lives"

[@harryo82]

🎯

[@jryanw1159]

Nailed it.

[@davidd.3555]

Lol you missed the whole point of infinity wars…Cap was wrong that’s why they lost. Vision was right but they waited too long and thanos made them pay for their mistake.

[@Dubaikiwi]

Yeah, see, that's where you're wrong. Cap says 'we don't trade lives' and then proceeds to go to war, resulting in trading MANY more lives and then failing, resulting in trading half of the Galaxy's lives, including Vision who dies anyway. 'Any means necessary' is dangerous taken too far, but so is the opposite dogma.

[@janschmid281]

@@Dubaikiwi was just a quot that fitted, not saying cap was right in infinity war

[@kylehessling2679]

I totally agree about the fireflies going about it all wrong. I feel like even if they had been able to cure everyone by killing Ellie, that should have been a conversation they had with Joel and Ellie! I feel like Joel wouldn't have killed everyone if he had heard her say she wanted that. Also, they could have done other tests and studied her more thoroughly without killing her. Honestly, taking the fungus out of her to try to examine it may just kill the only possibility of ever replicating her circumstances. The fireflies acted like they took immense care in taking Ellie, but when the time came, they saw her as an experiment and went about it way too hastily, disregarding her intrinsic value as a person. The fact that they didn't take more care in approaching the process makes me feel like Joel did the right thing keeping her alive to be examined by more capable and less careless doctors in the future. It's honestly a perfect storm of bad leadership decisions on the fireflies' part to get to that outcome.

[@paulamersy]

There is possibility that they've hired Joel for her "transportation" just to not get attached to her

[@codyshelton1405]

​@@paulamersyyeah well they should have told him that to avoid him killing everyone then lol

[@blackdandelion5549]

In the show she was taken in for immediate surgery and you never saw lab tests, spinal taps, MRI's, CT's, days of examining her lab results and testing as more blood and specimens can be examined while she is still alive, but there was such a jump to "operate and the patient will succumb to the needs of the experiment now" when they were only working on theory and the doctor had not had time to really go over his theory based on Ellie and her lab results. I understand the game was different, but the show was very sudden with "operate now". I don't have an MD for people and I still want to know every variable about this person from if the PH in her urine is off to know if that is why her body handles the fungus differently. I want every spec so I can compare it to an average human and look for anything outside normal parameters before I just cut open a person to access their brain. Also, people have have brain surgeries and lived before so why are we presuming the patient is going to die? Are we simply take a blunt force route, do we not have appropriate tools/medicine, or ???? I would have tested on every sample I could to see reactions. It was simply too sudden.

[@tcrpgfan]

And that's the rub that makes Part 2's story so much more bearable. Ellie was more willing to forgive Joel, because he admitted he'd do it again. Thus giving her what she actually wanted more than anything, a parental figure who loves her. That is the root of why she wanted to go through with the procedure. If she can't feel parental love, then she wants to feel special in other ways. Joel just went and said to the fireflies in Salt Lake City 'Nah sorry. DAD MODE ENGAGED!'

[@blackdandelion5549]

@@tcrpgfan I agree and her original reasons were also emotion based which was she didn't want what happened to her best friend/girlfriend, Riley, to happen to anyone else. She had to fight the infected that was attacking Riley and then sit there and watch while the infection only took one of them and then put Riley dwn instead of "going mad together". Ellie also said "and then Tess, and then Sam, and . . . ." so she was basing her value on the good people she had met along the way who she cared about that had become infected. She never had imagined the other options of having a family/parental figure and living in a non FEDRA town. Marlene had Ellie make the decision just after Riley died out of a place of trauma seeing her best friend die. That's manipulative and Marlene never told her what the cure actually entailed. If she had would Ellie have fought so hard for her life and made plans with Joel for after the medical procedure?

[@lukeparenteau3051]

A key detail that is being missed is that yes Ellie wants a cure, but she never expressed a willingness to sacrifice herself for a cure. Her intentions throughout the show were to get to the fireflies develop a cure and live a life with Joel afterwards. The vaccine is not the end of the road for her because she doesn’t know that it will cost her life. Joel makes his decision not solely for himself. He wants to save Ellie because she expressed a desire for a life beyond their currently journey. Joel is not stealing this choice from her because Marlene already stole it from her first. Saving her can give Ellie the choice back, but he decided to take the choice from her when he decided to lie to Ellie about what happened. Marlene knew what she was doing was morally bankrupt otherwise she would have given Ellie the choice. Joel lied to Ellie to dissuade her from seeking the cure in the future because he believes that it requires her sacrifice. On either side it is a pair of adults being unable to trust a child with a decision like that, or it is their fear of the answer they don’t want that keeps them from giving the decision to Ellie. Joel only killed the people that were between him and Ellie. The nurses he didn’t kill we’re positioned behind Ellie when he finds her. He only kills the doctor when he tries to stop him.

[@Wholesomewebs]

The thing is, it was predicted from Ellie that they would just test her blood. No one predicted that it was cost her life until Joel got to the hospital. That changes a lot. He made the most human decision maybe any parent would do. The right decision for him, but overall he was wrong.

[@Quanic2000]

Joel is right in saving her because it doesn't appear as though the Fireflies told her how the procedure would go down; that Ellie would have to be sacrificed to find a cure. But he's wrong in lying to her. I love the drama!

[@andrewebersole8454]

Was she really infected from the bite her mother took. Could it have been from her mother using the same knife she used to kill the zombie to cut the umbilical cord?

[@capnjohn7455]

It could be. Unfortunately in the game you never see Ellie’s birth or find out why she is not affected by the cordyceps.

[@xxxphilippxxx]

I think this is one of your best videos. Bravo!

[@alessandropiccione7695]

Thank you so much for this fantastic journey. Every time I ended an episode I was searching for your breakdowns. I’m so glad that no-gamers can enjoy amazing stories like the last of us. And you Ryan were THE BEST OF US while you breakdown the entire season.

[@rochabroplayz6896]

If Ellie ever had kids of her own, would they be immune as well?

[@FupaDoncic]

We’ll never know, she’s a Muncher

[@chaddejong3942]

Probably not? I think the weakened cordyceps in her brain are what prevents her from turning, for whatever reason they are too weak to turn her but they send out messages to tell any new infections to back off this brain is taken. (Which thinking about it wouldn't any infected zombie be sending out the same messages and they could use those?) Either way... it isn't something with her DNA that makes her immune so I don't think it would be passed down.

[@johncarldelossantos7345]

it cant because she's gay.

[@AndrasMihalyi]

@@johncarldelossantos7345 being gay doesn't prevent pregnancy...

[@jamesbarnes9097]

​@@johncarldelossantos7345 wow...

[@Jiu-JitsuJourney257]

Wonder why Marleen wouldn’t just lie to Joel and tell him she was already dead.

[@mdb45424]

because in the game which 90% of the show was based on, the fire flies ambush joel knock him out, rob is equipment so he shouldnt be able to follow them and kidnap ellie. Mar felt guilty for doing this so she doesnt out right kill him. When joel wakes he he scavange for what supplies he could and head to the drop point ( fire fly current base) to find elie. when he gets there he finds an auido log of marleen sobbing over tricking ellie into volunteering to have samples collect (not knowing its fatal) Joel then tries to find elle and the fire flies consider him a threat at this point and open fire. only the guards attack joel its up to the player to decide to kill civies. along the way joel finds audio logs showing the incompatance of the doctor and how he failed to harvest from another immune person. Being that their best doctor was an animal vet. after a few more floors marleen confronts joel, dies, and joel walks out of the building with ellie in arms asking what happen.

[@Dubaikiwi]

Because she believes she's doing the right thing, and so she tells the truth. Joel knows he isn't, so he lies to Ellie

[@mdb45424]

@@Dubaikiwi oh he lies to Ellie to protect her form the PTSD that knowning she is partialy responsiable for the death of 20+ people more in the game. Like any caring parent would. Kinda hard for someone her age to handle wouldnt you say? Especially with the stress of a zombie attack at anymore, constant lookout for bandits and the trauma of having killed a person herself already.

[@dalepetersen1166]

This show is 10 times better than anything that won an Oscar the other day. Why can't they put shows like this in the theater??

[@name7ess]

sitting 8 hours in theater to watch it?

[@dalepetersen1166]

@@name7ess it could be a three-parter like the hunger games that would be fine I would go to a movie once every 6 weeks to see the sequel

[@michaelbattlejr836]

My mind says Joel was wrong but my heart says I would’ve do the same thing 10x over

[@keydawsable]

No healthy Parent or Parental figure sacrifices their Child. Elle was being killed for a "potential" greater good, without her consent or knowledge.. Joel did what any parent would do! He tore that place to pieces to save his Baby! Call it what you will, Grief, Love, PTSD, Selfishness, Abandonment Issues, WHATEVER! As a Father of a Daughter, I'm coming through like Commando too!

[@izzyxblades]

Agreed!!

[@whaisnmaisn]

joel did absolutely everything right .... there are millions of reasons why killing ellie was wrong... here are a few of them 1. The "Doctor" in the show and in the game has literally no experience in neurology 2. Ellie is the ONLY persoj on this planet thats immune and they are killing her because of a hypothesis that is realistically speaking completely stupid..... even if these messengers were to only be produced in the brain tissue, you would only need to do a biopsy 3. to make a vaccine u need neurologists, doctors, immunologistsetc... (very many of them) and a high end fully functioning lab and hospital and also test subjects and very good knowledge of the cordyceps for this to even work 4. even if they really had to kill elli, the chances of a vaccine working the first try are slim to 0 5. the fireflies are a hated group among the whole world, they are seen as terrorists so how would they deliver that vaccine? there is no transportion, good enough to deliver this to anyone 6. the amount of "vaccine" you would get out of this if it even worked wich it wouldnt, would be able to cure 100 people at max and to reproduce it for masses is literally impossible, they do not have the biologists, nor the equipment or place to do that 7. and last but not least, IF this vaccine produced messengers that tell the cordyceps that the person is cordyceps and therefor doesnt need to "transform", how would that cure those that are already trasnformed? it would only stop those to get infected that are not already..... this wholw shit makes no sense and i bet they will go with the story of the second game and try to make us hate ellie and love abby even tho joel did everything right.....

[@hulzebos9760]

Ending well executed, you could really see Ellie not believing Joel when she questioned him about the Fireflies. Still I think Joel made the right decision but should've told Ellie. Also at 4:11 I was waiting for an echo of "the greater good" by the townsfolk from Hot Fuzz.

[@theoutlawking9123]

Dude, they literally just copied the game, stop pretending like this was revolutionary, it's just the game in live-action.

[@sharptojo6420]

@@theoutlawking9123 this is your take: 🥶❄️🧊

[@theoutlawking9123]

@@sharptojo6420 Speak English, not twitter.

[@sharptojo6420]

@@theoutlawking9123 Twitter isn’t a language. It’s a social media platform.. Are you typing these replies from the short bus, mate? You Americans are very silly. *I’m sipping a pint right now and wankin me Willy*

[@jayyy1677]

@@theoutlawking9123 jeez you guys are annoying af

[@IamNoTaBotBruh]

Have to commend your editing sir ❤

[@aaronbrown9110]

2nd does the fungi have to be in the brain to transfer infection? does it branch out(wide) then up to brain for higher % or reached the imbilical cord first. And more?s

[@MALLYGEEZ1]

This decision is heart wrenching.

[@katesullivan4707]

Its hard to say Joel was wrong when Marlene was wrong too. Who knows what Ellie would decide, we think we know, but she likely would question the surgeon better than either of them. What Joel was really wrong about is lying to Ellie about it. She might have been able to understand and just think the journey hasn't ended. They know how she's immune, lets kind a neurosurgeon to help. She is pissed about Marlene but she could see it a duel Joel won. She could flip out at first, but hell, Maria could help mediate.

[@Dubaikiwi]

Question : What happens if Ellie wakes up, and says no? If you were Marlene, and Ellie said no, would you let the cure to humanity walk out the door? You've already killed thousands in the name of Democracy.

[@whaisnmaisn]

joel did absolutely everything right .... there are millions of reasons why killing ellie was wrong... here are a few of them 1. The "Doctor" in the show and in the game has literally no experience in neurology 2. Ellie is the ONLY persoj on this planet thats immune and they are killing her because of a hypothesis that is realistically speaking completely stupid..... even if these messengers were to only be produced in the brain tissue, you would only need to do a biopsy 3. to make a vaccine u need neurologists, doctors, immunologistsetc... (very many of them) and a high end fully functioning lab and hospital and also test subjects and very good knowledge of the cordyceps for this to even work 4. even if they really had to kill elli, the chances of a vaccine working the first try are slim to 0 5. the fireflies are a hated group among the whole world, they are seen as terrorists so how would they deliver that vaccine? there is no transportion, good enough to deliver this to anyone 6. the amount of "vaccine" you would get out of this if it even worked wich it wouldnt, would be able to cure 100 people at max and to reproduce it for masses is literally impossible, they do not have the biologists, nor the equipment or place to do that 7. and last but not least, IF this vaccine produced messengers that tell the cordyceps that the person is cordyceps and therefor doesnt need to "transform", how would that cure those that are already trasnformed? it would only stop those to get infected that are not already..... this wholw shit makes no sense and i bet they will go with the story of the second game and try to make us hate ellie and love abby even tho joel did everything right.....

[@hannahwatkins7992]

No, the writers said that Ellie would've wanted it. She would've sacrificed herself for the rest of the world. If the choice had been hers, she would've let it happen. That's why Joel can't tell her the truth. He knows he betrayed her, and he knows she'd hate him for it. He stole her only chance to fulfil what she thought her only purpose was. It wasn't his choice to make, it was hers. She wanted to save humanity, but instead Joel "saved" her for his own selfish gain. She will die anyways, so why not to save the world?

[@SamuelPearlman]

Joel realized that Love was the cure all along...

[@ramachandra7729]

Mando needs to protect his foundling above all else. This is the way.

[@loracorwyn3713]

It’s what I love about this show. It’s very human. You do make the wrong decisions sometimes.

[@vcuheel1464]

To many people assum that the procedure and the unconsented sacrifice of Ellie would have worked. There was absolutely no reason for them to rush to do this procedure so quickly. Joel was right.

[@mdb45424]

yup lore in the first game back this up. the doc was trying to collect white blood cells from the brain. the reason they deceided to do this cause the blood cells from the blood didnt do anything...... yeah he was an animal vet not a surgeon but the best fire fly could get. All this to make a vaccine which doesnt affect fungal parasites by the way. IRL those require antibotics

[@mdb45424]

@Roniixx you know how hard genethrepy is ? the resources required to matian the supply. happy dream i guess

[@lady_elle]

I was conflicted watching Joel in this episode but understood. Even if that means it will haunt him & Ellie forever. And as tragic as it is to see them finally learn its safe and okay to love each other, only for it to be overshadowed by the fact that they can't trust each other anymore 😢. I'm excited to see how they do the 2nd season and hope they break it up into 3 seasons.

[@filipponeri4571]

I just thought everyone was wrong in a way or another. It makes it more lifelike.

[@SpammytheHedgehog]

Mandalorian had Beskar armor Joel had Plot armor

[@newfacepaula]

some doctor's daughter say "I stomp on the fool"

[@hanshotlast]

LOU isn’t nearly as bad with the action scene. In mando everyone shoots him hundreds and hundreds of time per season. Yet not a single one hits him where his armor isn’t

[@Superdimensional]

Shocked you could make and edit a video this detailed in 1 day. You must’ve had early access lol

[@lynx655]

It’s a 10 year old story. They could make the script beforehand, and also have all the cuts from the game as placeholder. When the episode airs, you just need to review the material, at most retake some parts, but it could have largely been done any time in the last 10 years, waiting to release in a timely manner. :)

[@subreel12000]

They get screener access 4 days early

[@treyous3395]

Personally I feel like both the Fireflys and Joel was wrong. I personally think if they would of allowed Joel to see Ellie and than explained to Ellie what they needed to do in order to possibly make a cure. The decision should have been up to Ellie it was her life they were going to take. I also think had they given Ellie the choice in front of Joel wouldn't have killed everyone because he would lose Ellie by doing so. Another thing to think about is how much trust should be put into the Firefly? If they 100% could make a cure? What would they have done with that cure? Do you really believe they would of passed it out to everyone? Or would they have given the cure to only Fireflies, so they could take over everywhere?

[@Arashikage32]

Love the show, I love your video. Always enjoy your deep dives. Referring to the last of us is one of the greatest stories ever told, well, that’s a pretty heavy opinion, in humble opinion.

[@RAKKAR7]

I was skeptical about Ellie's actress' acting ability in the first view episodes. I WAS WRONG. She killed it. Also, as mentioned, we HAVE NO idea if they could have created a cure!

[@cutaiam]

Being a father I empathize with Joel; it would have been losing two children

[@zachmiller4575]

I side with Joel making the cure wouldn’t just fix society like the fireflies think it would

[@CandaceEsponosa]

I’m a parent, and quiet nihilistic. I would save my child. This is a hard situation but human beings have natural survival instincts and a need to protect their own, even if Joel played a step dad role to Ellie. Like many parents I know have and would say the same thing. Save your child and find the beauty in the moments you have now. The rest of the world lives for themselves. So why shouldn’t Joel? It is an individualistic society we live in. Joel in my POV did the right thing. There is no definite way to know if she was the cure if this organism was growing and evolving. They also lacked resources and the availability of other scientists and researchers who can objectively give their view points without jumping into experiments that could be life threatening towards the only human that showed resistance to the spread of the infection. Soooooooo I think that in a post-apocalyptic fiction world, it is about surviving and evolving around the living virus… when they have better resources and a clear and succinct plan of action then they could draft a better way on survival. As of right now, live your life bruh!?! Protect your own and live your life😂😂😂😂

[@RealBradMiller]

Well put, Candace!! I'm right there with you. There is nothing good or bad, it's thinking that makes it so.

[@jryanw1159]

Also Ryan, none of the Fireflies Joel killed were innocent. They were either trying to kill him or trying to kill Ellie. Marlene needed to die because she would’ve found them. She knew Joel would go back to his brother and she would’ve found them and killed everyone in that commune to get to Ellie.

[@chrisquaresma7136]

Marlene was pretty much unhinged on her agenda that ellie being a "cure" gave the fireflies and her life meaning other than killing other humans. Why aren't people talking about how selfish Marlene was for force feeding delusions to ellie for her own selfish reasons. Joel's character was the only person in the world that could and would have saved her like that. There is no right or wrong. Joel gave ellie what she deserved, a chance at living her own life

[@mdb45424]

@@chrisquaresma7136 mostly because the show runner is trying to cast joel in a bad light so they can do TOL2. They followed the game up to the point they were going to show the dark side of fire fly and how its was a near pipe dream. filling in the gaps in the story from the ps3 game they were going to kill elle to get a sample of her brain in hopes of idenity what cause her sypboitic releationship with the fungus. so they need to find a way to sythinize a hormone as a supplement or find the gene ellie has ( ps3 lore) for the masses. Those goals are a bit rediculous in that setting so they decided to keep it vague instead of showing how grim and hopeless the setting is

[@SpammytheHedgehog]

Joel was right to kill the Fireflies, but was also wrong in lying to Ellie.

[@TravelsTTG]

Yes but he should have lied a little better. Like it won’t work.

[@harryo82]

This I agree with. Joel made the correct decision to save Ellie but he should have trusted and respected her enough to tell her the truth.

[@tmm4195]

@Roniixxthe fireflies did everything wrong and it’s exactly why they are where they are now

[@talukderhasinraihan3324]

Even an hope of a cure is more than a petty girls life. A probable win against this extinction has more value than a small girls life I don't know why many people don't understand this.

[@RoJoMe]

“Sooner or later Joel will die…” Unfortunately, it’s sooner rather than later (I’ve played “The Last of Us Part 2”😕)

[@bryankidd3966]

To me it's option 3 Ellie should of been ask Marleen was maybe right about that she would of sacrifice herself but can't be sure unless they ask her if she told Joel that was her decision maybe he would of reacted different but maybe not but we will never know

[@MrTensaikan]

The fireflies didn't care about Ellie's choice which is why she didn't get a say. They didn't believe they were doing anything wrong because they believed they were saving the world. People can relate to Joel and understand his decision because he understands what he did was wrong.

[@izzyxblades]

The fact that Marlene chose to use force and deception already makes Joel's decision justified. If Marlene approached them in good faith, used reasoning to appeal to them, then she would be in the right. But she didn't. Regardless of what they believe and what proof the doctor had, they kidnapped his child and told him they are killing her. They essentially invited him to kill them to save her. They chose that. It's like if I see a bear cub and the bear mama, and I choose to attack the bear cub. That is what they chose. It's dumb. They didn't need to do it that way. It also tells me they are not as honorable as they claim.

[@rojobroko5979]

Joel did the right thing, if humanity had the cure, they would weaponize it and keep it in one group.

[@MindoftheNorthStar]

That's a wild assumption to make. Even in that case, more people would be saved than Joel only thinking of himself

[@Quanic2000]

Then he should've told Ellie that so she can decide for herself.

[@kingpinpasta2934]

If that’s true that is not the reason why he saved Ellie

[@chaseb5376]

Translation = "Joel Main Character so Joel Right".

[@qmanization2375]

COPE

[@illomens2766]

I'd doom the world to save my daughter, I wouldn't even think twice about it

[@kevinvolchok14]

Honestly, I love Joel and I know he's a beast... that being said, if one guy can kill the whole armed organization in the building and escape with a girl on his arms, they were NOT able to cure humanity

[@guilherme-not]

I love how The Last of Us (both the game and the show) turned a simple thing like the trolley problem into an irresistible story. It's a masterpiece.

[@walelu777]

This episode reminds me of a quote from Game of Thrones by Maester Aemon. “Love is the death of duty.” How true that is Edited to say that as a parent, I would have done the same thing as Joel. I started thinking about all the things I’d do to save my children and there’s literally nothing I wouldn’t do to protect them. As wrong as it sounds, I’d pop off every person in this world to save them. Which brings me back to the quote above

[@Chudsic]

this, what an episode that will be remembered in tv history

[@walelu777]

@@Chudsic I agree! I don’t understand the hate it’s receiving

[@Dubaikiwi]

You would be the first to join the Dark Side.

[@walelu777]

@@Dubaikiwi do you have kids? Lol. It’s an instinct. I’m a good person believe it or not, I’d just do anything for my children

[@nodisceyes]

Word up dude! Am impressed with the nuances & nouse (intelligence) your showing in this video. Am equally intrigued by where they take "The Last of Us" for Season 2...

[@filmgirlLisa]

My main issue with the episode is that the writers (though I know they wanted to stay true to the game to a certain degree) were trying to pretend they wanted to ask a complex question but they weren't really. If they were, they would done with Marlene the same thing they did with the other essential and non-essential characters on the show and given her a good backstory. Yes, she had to kill Ellie's mom, but why not show her putting Ellie in the school for her own protection or what the Fireflies went through to get to Joel and Ellie and how many they lost on the hope of finding a cure? If they had've shown Marlene's personal drive to eradicate the disease, then maybe the question would've been adequately presented as complex.

[@SilkyJohnson625]

Joel made a devastating choice but there was no guarantee that there was going to be cure. I'd be more on the side of the Fireflys if they gave Ellie a choice.

[@ricksmith7490]

How this would have happened is Ellie would have died the cure and hope for mankind as well and than Joel would have killed himself. What a shitty ending I'm glad of the one we got

[@jeffreycarman2185]

11:08 the dilemma was more like “let Ellie die, for the slim chance that this half-baked cure might be able to work, and reproduced, and be distributed” we also know that it doesn’t cure the infected from attacking people, and as we saw in episode 5 the bloaters don’t bite, they just kill. So even what Ellie has is a cure against getting infected, it’s not a cure against getting bitten or ripped apart.

[@BillyDHughesDrums]

Pretty simple . People with kids say he's right people without kids say he's wrong

[@bryankidd3966]

I have I kid but I'm not sure if he is right...I know they spent a year on there journey and got close and she becomes his surrogate daughter...so I understand why he did it...but it should of been Ellie decision Marleen and joel took that away from here...but either way his decision has consequences and part of my understands Abbys rage later on

[@BillyDHughesDrums]

@bryan Kidd lol true but fuck Abby. She would have done the same thing if it was her kid. It's all perspective Noone is right or wrong. Ellie didn't have a choice because the world around her didn't let her have one.

[@lour8237]

I wonder what James Mill would have said. He basically invented utilitarianism (whatever begets the greater good is morally right) and he had a son (who he raised to think exactly the same).

[@moneppeli]

The fact that Marlene could’ve guessed that Ellie is immune due to having an infected mother so she could’ve put two and two together and made a immune baby farm

[@ghostmove2427]

Ellie’s mom swore she got infected after she gave birth

[@aless65]

​@@ghostmove2427 I'm sure Marlene figured out it was a lie after discovering that Ellie is inmune

[@rosecity_chris]

When my son was a baby, he and his mom were hit by a car crossing the street at a cross walk. They were both concussed and his mom lost her pulse at the scene, requiring cpr. When the person who hit them came up to me saying sorry...I saw it was a dude I knew who was a heroin junkie and I lost it. I attacked him in front of about 8 cops and they had to pull me off him. Point being, Joel's decision was irrational but very realistic. Any father or mother would do the same.

[@PopeJohnBeatoIV]

If the Fireflies were so convinced it was what she wanted, why didn't they wait for Joel to regain consciousness so they could say their goodbyes. That way no killing. They didn't give her a choice.