Johann Hari on uncovering the real causes of depression, from his new book

Benjamin Ramm talks to Johann Hari about depression and its unexpected solutions.
Buy the book and support openDemocracy, Independent Bookshops and the author from this link: uk.bookshop.org/a/8711/978140...
Article here: opendemocracy.net/johann-hari

[@mowthpeece1]

There are many causes. Something bad/traumatic triggers it, this is physiological. Then add conditions like no sun, bad food, weak social support, weak family support, weak work relationships, and it's physiological AND psychological AND emotional ... But yes, underneath it all, could easily be a lack of control of the particular environment. If you're ill, lack of control over your body. If you're socially outcast, lack of control over other people, (love interests or platonic). Professionally unsuccessful, lack of control over work. An initial trauma would absolutely prove a lack of control over circumstances. So yes. I think he's hit the nail on the head. Factor in that depression is anger turned inward and what we've got is anger over our lack of control in our lives. And seeing as how most of us are slaves to this money obsessed system and we can see how so many have become depressed. People are stuck. Trapped. Life is not really living. Brilliant. Thank you!

[@Mad5am]

Excellent comment.

[@oceanriccard]

I'm an anthropologist and I like the argument about the "participatory", tribes. Nice narrative and it makes sense. Humans evolved in the EEA, environment of evolutionary adaptations, an homogenous space where we lived as nomadic clans of gatherers and hunters.

[@LIQUIDSNAKEz28]

The 50+ hour work week and NO exercise

[@cesarbravo822]

I don't think his theories are that fringe, to be honest. His recommendation ought to be common sense by now.

[@joaovianeidasilva4310]

Just slow down the playback speed

[@justgivemethetruth]

There is a documentary on depression from Japan. I think it was in NetFlix, but they say that in primitive hunter gathering societies there is no depression because they are all at more or less the same social level and they are connected to their society. They said that people evolved in a tribe usually, and their brains are built for small community/families, and that in modern life we are out of sync with who and what we really are. In Britain they just invented a government cabinet ministry of loneliness. What is cool but kind of depressing from the US point of view is that at least Britain is doing something about this problem. The upper class in the US seems to be happy that they can cause such misery and punish everyone else. It seems to be a Conservative political tenet that the more money you have - only then will our society care about you. Doesn't matter if you are a great person or a criminal, if you have money, you are connected.

[@robertvinkesteijn5059]

Great story about the hunters and gatherers, just too bad that we don't have reliable data on the percentage of people being depressed in any society that goes further back than the 1950's, and that what we do know about depression and melancholia (to simplify somewhat: it's pre-19th century equivalent) suggests that there have always been people with the symptoms of depressions across history and cultures. Also from the periods we do have data, it appears that in the past decades there has not been a notable increase in the amount of people being depressed, and it has stayed pretty much stable around 5%. There are many problems with our modern society, that should be firmly addressed in all possible ways, but to spin the story that depression is a consequence of cultural or societal circumstances specific to our modern age is, sorry, just plainly wrong.

[@johnvaughan7096]

That's why proper teamworking, with everyone properly contributing, is so important in the modern organisation.

[@justgivemethetruth]

@@johnvaughan7096 That certainly helps, but as Noam Chomsky often points out, the modern organization as you put it, is a tyranny, so it is not really a team, it is more a military-type organization at war, and that is why the team meme is BS rah-rah to get people to sell themselves. As I stated, and was proven the the British Social Services study, depression also is aggravated by hierarchy and inequality.

[@johnvaughan7096]

@@justgivemethetruth Thanks, that was exactly my point!

[@justgivemethetruth]

@@johnvaughan7096 Oh, cool, I didn't get that from the way your expressed it. But I guess the question is, when all human organizations are basically at war, how does anything get changed for a better model, and would it just go too hard against human nature?

[@brianmccaffrey1234]

Thomas Moore's Care of the Soul came to similar conclusion

[@Mohamed-bm6yk]

a man who's aim is something big would get depressed definetly

[@pauldickinson5316]

If you cannot simply be by yourself then you are obviously in bad company. 🙏

[@Be1More]

watched 2nd time, and still helpful insights

[@sollayegi7041]

I figured it my self years ago:life is only and only exchange of energy.Depression is the lack of necessary type and amount of energy that your soul (the streem of energy)requires.

[@justgivemethetruth]

I guess you have to attack something that challenges the bedrock or something so key to America, which is the authoritarian self-righteous argument, a kind of God is on our side, and we are on God's side, so in God's name we can do whatever the hell we want with people if we can designate them in some way as sinners. Drug addicts are sinners according to the narrative, and the most miserable things have been done to them. Hari's book is brilliant, and the guy is an amazing writer. In fact both books are MUST READS in my opinion. People who take drugs are anesthetizing themselves from pain, and the misery in the US is isolation and neglect. Compared to the problems drug addicts cause, the problems from the war on drugs is a total negative externalized cost. It was designed to keep minorities down is another evil of the drug war. The arguments in both books are well-researched, so well articulated and the done so even-handedly they are a real joy to read, and so informative.

[@johnmckie6563]

This is interesting and it’s not new at all. A German physician treating me for a potential heart complaint which ended up being a symptom severe anxiety referred to “hidden tigers (versteckte Tiger)” in the brain which is a great analogy for the contrast between the effects of modern living and the ancient responses hard wired into parts of the brain particularly the amygdala.

[@1LaOriental]

What causes low serotonin???

[@PaulSmith-pf2uq]

WHAT CAUSES OR CONTRIBUTES TO SEROTONIN DEFICIENCY? Many life stressors can lead to low serotonin: 1) Prolonged periods of stress can deplete serotonin levels. Our fast paced, fast food society greatly n contributes to these imbalances. 2) Genetic factors, faulty metabolism, and digestive issues can impair absorption and breakdown of our food which reduces are ability to build serotonin. 3) Poor Diet. Neurotransmitters are made in the body from proteins. Also required are certain vitamins and minerals called “cofactors”. If your nutrition is poor and you do not take in enough protein, vitamins, or minerals to build the neurotransmitters, a neurotransmitter imbalance develops. We really do think and feel what we eat. 4) Toxic substances like heavy metals, pesticides, drug use, and some prescription drugs can cause permanent damage to the nerve cells that make serotonin and other neurotransmitters. 5) Certain drugs and substances such as caffeine, alcohol, nicotine, NutraSweet, antidepressants, and some cholesterol lowering medications deplete serotonin and other neurotransmitter levels. 6) Hormone changes cause low levels of serotonin and neurotransmitter imbalances. 7) Lack of sunlight contributes to low serotonin levels SYMPTOMS You may have a shortage of serotonin if you have a sad depressed mood, low energy, negative thoughts, feel tense and irritable, crave sweets, and have a reduced interest in sex. Other serotonin related disorders include: Depression Anxiety Panic Attacks Insomnia Irritable bowel PMS/ Hormone dysfunction Fibromyalgia Obesity Eating disorders Obsessions and Compulsions Muscle pain Chronic Pain Alcohol abuse Migraine Headaches Obesity Eating disorders Obsessions and Compulsions Muscle pain Chronic Pain Alcohol abuse Migraine Headaches

[@joeshmoe7899]

Took a small healthy cactus from Arizona. Brought it back to my tropical home. It looks depressed, dying. I think it is low on seratonin.

[@johnvaughan7096]

What you say at 10:35, Johann, Herzberg proposed as a result of his work in the 1960s. Control over one's work is one of the 'Motivators' as opposed to the 'Hygiene' factors such as salary. Motivators affect job satisfaction and stress whereas Hygiene factors only affect job dissatisfaction.

[@dominggus6726]

Good👍👍👍

[@yvonnedyer5371]

Depression is caused by childhood trauma

[@antielite5379]

I’m not quite getting the gist of his angle here, CBT has said that thoughts lead to feelings for many many years, what is he uncovering?

[@antielite5379]

Marten Dekker i’m sorry to hear of your struggles. Have you tried a transactional analyst therapist?

[@innovationinterviews]

Hi Marten, There's a saying, to feel good, do good ... Have you tried that? I know it works for me, I'm trying to help a number of Africans who are genuinely disadvantaged, through Facebook groups, and we are getting close to being able to make a real difference, starting with nothing more than fresh air, vapours and our own ingenuity ... And it has to be society is a factor, because despite all their hardships, depression is much less of a problem outside the developed world, as the #CowAntiDepressant story Johann tells shows us ... I don't comment or respond much here at all, so you might like to try finding "Ecology of Systems Thinking" on Facebook, and there I'm Peter Jones ...

[@antielite5379]

Ok so basically he wants to reorder society. Good luck with your marxisim

[@syta657]

@@antielite5379 hey Anti, he does not want to reorder society, he points out symptoms that show that our culture is sick.

[@hauweiguy9587]

@@antielite5379 I think its more the case of the natural order of society has become disordered.

[@stevenfielden8955]

I'd be depressed if I looked on Wikipedia and saw this under my name and beside my photograph; - Hari was suspended from The Independent and later resigned, after admitting to plagiarism and fabrications dating back to 2001, and making malicious edits to the Wikipedia pages of journalists who had criticised his conduct. He has since written books on the topics of depression, the war on drugs, and the effect of technology on attention spans.

[@michaelshannon9169]

All work is meaningful, just some work is more impactful. Those at the bottom are going to feel the sting of their lesser capacities and tendencies for drive, intellect and success by the work they do, sad but true. Not everyone can be a CEO or a the star man of a the football team as their will always exit a hierarchy in any diverse species. No one claims nature is fair yet we somehow feel it should be. The fact that is takes everyone in the end should show you that nature plays by it's own set of rules. Depression is a particular physical response that there is a need that's not being met I agree. Whether we feel down or empty, something is amiss. Sadly, we may not be able to resolve these needs as life doesnt yield to those needs nor does it reveal the solution so easily. Some ppls lives are lived as though life had paved it out for them, they just need to put one foot after the other, we encounter these ppl all the time. Conscientious ppl are known to be less likely to feel depressed as they feel accomplished merely completing a task. We see with neurotic and highly sensitive ppl that they are more prone to depression. Meaning for these ppl is harder to attain as they often have a very macro-cosmic, philosophical view of life. This applies to the old adage 'ignorance is bliss'. Take a pigeon. U see it's plight - it spends all day looking for food and trying to out-compete others. If a human were assigned to live this life, hypothetically, he or she would likely kill itself. To a neurotic, highly sensitive person they see humanity having a similar the same plight. They no longer see survival as a privilege. They are disaffected to conventional norms and forms of entertainment. This is a plight of it's own and unchosen. To address this is extremely difficult. Nature is on different terms with everyone. We would all love to feel a sense of fulfilment looking at a sunset, achieving a particular result, travel etc but the law does not negate the exception. We are a diverse species looking for the same results - satisfaction. But by our very nature and diversity, it's impossible. By this principle people have to suffer, some more than others.

[@justgivemethetruth]

Meaning is a personal thing ... there is just no way possible for you to make the statement that all work is meaningful. It's an idiotic and very dishonest comment ion service of opaquely justifying the inequality that exists today, sorry.

[@michaelshannon9169]

Name a job that has no meaning (that doesnt provide some kind of service/usefulness)

[@justgivemethetruth]

It is not for me, or you, to tell someone else what meaning is. The meaning must come from the person, and if they do not feel their work is meaningful, you cannot say otherwise.

[@michaelshannon9169]

In a perfect world all our personal sense of meanings would somehow fit together like a jigsaw but that's not reality. Someone has to do bin man, post man, 9-5 in a cubicle. You're paradigm is idealistic but that's it.

[@justgivemethetruth]

Idealistic? ... hardly I just know the meanings of English words. Personally, I wonder if people would not be better motivated if everyone was paid the same, at least the there would not be profit in enslaving people or destroying the planet, and we might think more about what did. But still, the meaning should be thought of as from the perspective of the worker. What about slaves, do you think they thought there was meaning in their work, or is all you care about the owners?

[@PaulSmith-pf2uq]

What about Depression and Anxiety in Autism? There is nothing of it in Hari's book.

[@EJR914]

Government basically

[@davis7099]

I listened and read the articles that Hari wrote during his earlier career notable for his righteous ridicule and finger pointing towards his ideological opponents. This funny Guardian reader comment is in response to Hari's review of his own book on addiction. "You've gotta hand it to Hari for callowness and entitlement. After years of being over-feted and overpaid for writing sanctimonious squirts for various newspapers that fawned on his youth and metro chic cred, his constant lying, fabricating, scheming and libeling get outed; he attempts to quash the disaster with more lies, attacks, and then outright (and outraged) denials; and finally, when all is lost, he makes a sour little non-apology for it all by blaming The-Culture-Within-Which-He-Worked." Now - because such a pompous little poppinjay needs a redemptive comeback - he slides off the naughty step with this touchy-feely nonsense that any self-help guru might have penned, essentially skipping back into the spotlight across the backs of the addicted, the dying, and the dead"

[@antielite5379]

David B that person should be a professional critic

[@innovationinterviews]

So David B, why is it that Africans are so much happier than us in the developed world, mentally healthier, when they have such severe physical hardship to endure by comparison ..?

[@justgivemethetruth]

I am not seeing your point. Where is this review of his own work you are talking about, and what is it? That is a pretty nasty quote, so putting it out there without context makes you are real rotten individual bent on dishonestly attacking Hari, but with no real basis for it. At least that is what it sounds like to me.

[@ruthsowter503]

Anyone who needs to be so mean in a comment seems to me someone who needs this book. Just saying.

[@sunahangrai3601]

not easy ti understand tajes more time

[@dianarutherford6593]

Jesus cured me of depression. No Doctor could help me and even with treatment l was getting worse. In the depth l despair l turned to the Lord, who rescued me. I am so glad and grateful that today l can say l belong to Jesus. He is all l have, and all that l have ever needed. I belong, l have a family. And yes, l am extremely grateful. Praise the Lord! And l love you all! Only Jesus could cure me. I love him with all of my heart. God Bless you all with so much love. Yes, l had wonderful earthly parents, but the emptiness, lack of purpose, and feeling of loss, mental pain, could only be cured by the Lord Jesus Christ. Amen. And to God be the glory. Gratitude, thankfulness, happiness!

[@joeshmoe7899]

4 years, and depression isn't cured. Got any other ideas?

[@user-eo8jx7jq4u]

Why spoil all your good work by making widespread judgements on every UKIP candidate? Are you saying they have/are breaking the law? I would appreciate it if you currently your political slurs, they offend me and cause damage to innocent individuals, thank you. I still respect your work, I just noticed nobody had complained about the handful of deadpan comments I've heard you make in videos. The accusiations are wild cards, have no bearing on the subject matter and I feel are totally unnecessary.

[@MrRai101]

So instead of blaming depression on a chemical imbalance, this guy is blaming several external factors for people's depression. This guy has suffered from depression because his mind doesn't stop, and goes hundred miles an hour as you can see by the way he talks. The only thing that makes you depressed is your thoughts. Very simple

[@bryanlettow4389]

I like the theory of the Democratic work place but in reality it would cause a headache not everyone is as qualified or experienced in certain job positions so I could see how it could mess up the stability of the company. I don't think there's anyway of avoiding what we're capable of and where that puts us in relation to society. A man like myself with a low IQ doesn't have the ability to do the job of an aerospace engineer. I could barely spell aerospace.

[@CC3GROUNDZERO]

IQ is far from set in stone. It can improve massively with empowerment and a sense of purpose and agency.

[@bryanlettow4389]

l I'd like to agree since increasing my i.q. as well as others could be potentially better for society but from what accurate information I've come across it seems to be more within limits of your genes/what you're given. I.Q. is more complex it's not like a muscle.

[@CC3GROUNDZERO]

It is very much like a muscle. Use it or lose it.

[@bryanlettow4389]

l I'd like to agree but is there anything you could share with me to back up that idea? m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/naDbg2SjatZ1qMk

[@bryanlettow4389]

l This video touches on increasing I.Q. specifically. J.P. has longer videos on his own channel. I believe in "use it or lose it" to a certain extent but I.Q. is the measurement of overall intelligence. Use it or lose it is about keeping what you have to begin with. I.Q. is what level of intelligence you have to begin with.

[@axlbernard]

"Award winning plagiarist" Fixed it for you

[@antielite5379]

Which book has he plagiarised out of interest?

[@oceanriccard]

He's written two interesting, best sellers books. What have you accomplished in life, two kids??

[@justgivemethetruth]

Can you qualify that? Are you saying that Hari stole some words without attribution? Can you prove that? Personally I don't care, so why do you think it is such a big deal?

[@StefanTravis]

Man discovers people with shit lives get depressed. Writes book about it.