John Blackthorne Faces Lord Toranaga - Scene | Shōgun | FX

[@FXNetworks]

I am not a pirate.

[@lyrilljackson]

IT IS WAR.

[@BBD1]

Well he kinda was 🙄

[@antoniopena8101]

Remember the words of Aristoteles to Alexander the Great: This man has a boat he is called a pirate, this other has 100 boats he is called an admiral.

[@Alminox]

@FXNetworks, if the show is consistently this perfect, it deserves to have the story expanded beyond the ‘Shogun’ book. I’ve witnessed a masterpiece and I want more (greedy perhaps, but what do you expect when facing perfection?)

[@barneydenstad2148]

@@BBD1 really not pirate. He was a corsair, with the right / marquese - to attack and plunder spanish and portuguese. None other! it WAS a cheap sort of warfare for the state. So for the spaniards he was a pirate, but not for any others, as Japan... So he could explain this more clearly than here, now when he had 2 interpretors. His problem was, Japan WERE in coalition with spanish / protuguse, sort of,

[@Fey418]

As speaker of Japanese language, I must say not enough credit is given to the actor playing the priest in this scene. The fact that he switches between English and Japanese with such fluency is harder than most people think. Specially considering he is using archaic Japanese vocabulary, albeit with a hint of English accent, it is flawless in its delivery.

[@barneydenstad2148]

Of course, he IS playing the role of a trained, experienced, gifted interpretor. But yeah, he plays his role perfectly - I trust your description.

[@Fey418]

@@barneydenstad2148 I know what you mean. If he is playing the part, one would reason he doesn´t have to know the meaning of the words he is memorizing for this scene. But judging by his accent, intonation, and fluency, it seems to me that he is actually a western who did learn Japanese before playing this role. If am mistaken, then all the more reason to admire his professionalism. I have seen countless Hollywood movies where the western characters spoke with butchered Japanese despite the role considering them "experts", and even "Japanese characters" (usually Asian actors not from Japan) speaking weird Japanese. This series is a blow of fresh air, where I feel like I am watching a "Taika dorama" (Japanese historic dramas) airing in NHK.

[@tyree9055]

I'm glad to see that someone's trying to provide a reasonable representation of a foreign culture, because the unique differences that makes them unique is what makes them interesting. But, I guarantee you that my mimicking of Toshiro Mifune's gruff voice will not be recognizable by anyone from Japan, unfortunately! 🤣👍

[@rachelcoleman4693]

This is cool to hear.

[@TheCoolProfessor]

I believe you. Can you suggest any books that might help me to learn Japanese? It's a beautiful country and culture and I've always been very curious about learning this language.

[@antoniopena8101]

Remember the words of Aristoteles to Alexander the Great: This man has a boat he is called a pirate, this other has 100 boats he is called an admiral.

[@Shamino1]

Aristotle.

[@denisrivarola2387]

@@Shamino1 Arseturtle

[@CrniWuk]

@@denisrivarola2387 Arsentitle

[@grombrindal567]

@@CrniWuk Arsenio

[@nivekian]

Sue-crates.

[@heskrthmatt]

I like the way it transitions into a conversation between just Toranaga and Blackthorn, despite them speaking completely different languages.

[@raniermendoza]

That transition was seamless. So masterfully done.

[@richardruff8712]

It helps to shorten the story, and make the discussion easy to follow,,,

[@Arkkimonni]

Yeah, very good directing decision, after they establish that the Priest will not twist the words, so we viewers can ignore him when Blackthrone and Toranaga talk to each other.

[@richardruff8712]

@@Arkkimonni I seem to recall, in the 1980 version, they did show the more tedious inter-translating sequences, and it did take longer to get through the conversation....

[@JK-yk5ws]

通訳がいたと言う前提で2ヶ国語をミックスさせたこの演出は素晴らしいですね

[@hashbrown77]

The second Toranaga finds out Blackthorne isn't catholic, you can see in his eyes the wheels turning and he starts planning on how to use this to his advantage. Brilliant acting 👍👍

[@PhilipPetrunak]

The way I see it is, he is starting to realize just how big the world really is.

[@Hugh_Morris]

Toranaga is truly one of the smartest men in all of fiction. Never lost a battle, and it shows.

[@condorX2]

First time hearing that name. Is he Nobunaga?

[@thebonfireofgains]

Ieyasu apparently

[@Hugh_Morris]

@@condorX2 no, Goroda is mentioned sometimes as the former leader of Japan, he was killed before the events of story and that's who Nobunaga is based on. Mariko's dad, Akechi Jinsai, had Goroda assassinated.

[@robrkarl]

This show better win alot of Emmys

[@abc92800]

they picked the perfect date to air it

[@collinpace6522]

Nah, it’s not pink enough. No famous actors & not enough boobs so probably not. 😅

[@LouieR.4682]

Unfortunately shows that air in the spring never get any nominations. Besides if white lotus comes out this year forget it.

[@tobiasrietveld3819]

It's a shame there is no Emmy equivalent to the Oscar for constume design.

[@QualeQualeson]

It's decent. It's not _that_ good.

[@Lord_Fenrir]

I love this scene with hows it's shot with the diffrent angles when toranaga and blackthorne are talking and with the diffrent language it makes it look like they are in a world of their own with no else but them. Beautifullly shot🤩

[@bennewnham4497]

But did you also notice that as the questions got more tense and more dangerous, the camera angle slowly moved into close up? At the end, when Toranago is considering if Blackthorne is an enemy "very easily" (and if he decides that, your next stop is execution), all you see on the screen are the faces of the two of both actors.

[@nenad-seguljev]

4:54 am I just noticing Lord Toranaga's face at the end. when his jawbones move, it's like he's smiling without smiling or laughing.

[@mitchellsmith746]

I think some would call this a "knowing" or "scheming/plotting" face, though I don't know if we have a specific term for the expression.

[@Lorrdd]

@@mitchellsmith746 it's called a smirk.

[@mitchellsmith746]

@@Lorrdd I'd argue it's not a smirk since he didn't turn either lip up, but it's close

[@FireOccator]

This is how he laughs.

[@danvol3835]

He's not smiling; he's measuring Blackthorne up.

[@Sarah-jd7zv]

Never had a resounding interest for japanese history. I think its a testament to the show that ANYONE can enjoy this. Not just people with an interest in history. What a show.

[@evangreenberg1666]

You should. It’s pretty wild tbh

[@masterexploder9668]

I always was, mostly the time of Sengoku Jidai and Fall of the Tokugawa Shogunate in XIX century. I can blame certain Total War games for that and also books related to the topic. Overal the show is great, in certain ways it actually improves on the original series. Book is also a recommended read, Clavell writes quite historically accurate books, though he self-admittedly plays with a lot of facts, basing his characters on real people, but also changing other stuff. It's still entertaining, but it's not a historical documentary so keep that in mind.

[@shawnoconnor4633]

So this is based off the novel Shogun which is based off the historical character William Adams?

[@Kumire_921]

@@shawnoconnor4633 Yeah, the book romanticize his life and many things are different from the historical records.

[@beethao9380]

no. you only watch this show for the white dude. hypocrisy and racism at its finest: complains about black people replacing white actors, but don't mind whites being a main character in asian movies.

[@mikehughesoutdoors2774]

I have read Shogun 5 times, watched the original twice that. This is a masterpiece of cultural history as was the first. Only better than the first. The language is impeccable.

[@Ross-e9o]

My daughter in law is a Tokyo girl but now an Australian citizen. She was a trained high school history teacher in her homeland. She tells me that this series so far is a highly authentic depiction of feudal Japan.

[@FailHoernchen]

Same here. But what I dislike so far, is the pace of the show.

[@Lorrdd]

@chinngis83 In what way is Australia west?

[@PenganutAgamaDamaiKolohBakwan]

​@@Lorrdd West he mean is civilizations that built or transformed by westerners...

[@PenganutAgamaDamaiKolohBakwan]

​@chinngis83 I know you fed up with immigrations, but she is japanese ancestry. Japanese is famous for assimilate peacefuly, they also stays polite and not cause much troublesome when the become immigrant. Just look at brazil, japanese in there is peaceful people. But we on the other hand (im indonesian btw) suffers brain drain due skilled workers emigrate to the west then decided to stay in western and not comeback to share their knowledge/expertise.

[@benjaminjane93]

Three episodes in and I love this show. Small detail, but I love that Mariko says "Padre-Sama". She could've used a Japanese word for a priest. But makes the clear distinction of a authority within the Christian faith to differenciate between him and the other shinto priests.

[@shivamarya5225]

She could've just said Priest or father but she used Padre which is what portuguese calls them, indicating the whole sequence is in portuguese not english

[@aimanmarzuqi4804]

Except the sequence was not in Portugese

[@joltic7]

​@@aimanmarzuqi4804in the show, when you hear english they're actually speaking portugese

[@benjaminjane93]

@@aimanmarzuqi4804 The conceit of the English dialogue is that it's portoguese. I believe also he speaks "Dutch" with a Dutchman when he's locked up and it's in English as well.

[@HomemdaFaina]

it's not portugese, nor portoguese, it's Portuguese, ffs.

[@JohnSmith-il7jn]

The tension between the Catholic Priest and the English Blackthorne is greater than most would understand. England at that very moment was seeking out and executing those Catholic priests who were Jesuits. The Jesuits were trying to bring Anglican England back to the Catholic fold. This fact would have been well known to both of them.

[@MeAbroad2004]

i live in Munich: the centre of the counter-reformation. In the city centre is St Michael's Church; a Jesuit church. Next to it was a Jesuit training college - where they would train missionaries like in this clip, but also to go into Britain to try and stir things up. If caught, they faced agonising deaths.

[@brandonday2494]

Yep, this was only a decade or so after the Spanish Armada debacle.

[@dragonade85]

@@brandonday2494 And the English attempt to place Don Antonio on the Portuguese throne. People forget that up until Spain took over Portugal in 1580 the Portuguese had traditionally been English allies, despite the religious differences.

[@horacebond9394]

The book covers all of this in such detail, sadly, all the nuances and backstory of these characters will not be shown because it would take too long. If you have not read the book, I strongly urge all interested in this truly remarkable tale to buy it and read it. The show doesn’t take away from reading it after viewing. Such much backstory to these characters

[@brandonday2494]

Yeah there is plenty more depth to the book, for sure. That's just how it goes. But I'd definitely recommend reading the book, and for the true history, Sengoku Jidai by Danny Chaplin is a great starting point.@@horacebond9394

[@normanbarnsley7803]

The attention to detail in all areas especially in the ancient Japanese language is incredible, it looks and feels so true and real, very well made series, got me hooked

[@TC-cd5sm]

This show is an absolute masterpiece

[@catsupchutney]

So glad Blackthorne wasn't gender swapped in a "daring" re-imagining of the story.

[@StevenLeeStudios]

I was hoping for no woke indications, and so far, i am pleased to say the least.@@catsupchutney

[@aliwalil4160]

First movie you watched?

[@T-h-a-t_G-u-y]

@@StevenLeeStudiosThe directors and producers said they want this show to be as authentic as possible, both to the book and Japanese history.

[@StevenLeeStudios]

ya dont say???@@T-h-a-t_G-u-y

[@wyzedfz1495]

4:40 I think this is appreciated by Toranaga. Gives him a hint that Blackthorne may be a trustful and predictable man, since he is openly recognizing that they would become enemies in such a case without hesitation. Blackthorne is not threatening him, but being completely honest, and that is the virtue Toranaga is testing by asking such a question. He also knows that the response from a Portuguese lad to the same question would be completely different by this point, since they have something to loose.

[@sophieamandaleitontoomey9343]

The editing of them talking back and forth like they’re having a conversation despite the language barrier was absolutely genius.

[@XiaoP76]

I love how the translator gradually disappears from the scene and Blackthorne and Toranaga communicate directly through him.

[@lcoopcooperl]

For me, this was the best scene from the series so far. Absolutely loved it!

[@acay5722]

0:47 if i ever get rich, im hiring a japanese man to announce me just like he did "TSUJI-SAMAAAAA"

[@MetalGamer666]

This show is so good, and has reignited my interest in Japanese history.

[@MusicismoreImportant]

🇵🇹🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿

[@antonironstag5085]

@@MusicismoreImportant happy freedom day my portuguese brotha

[@Lorrdd]

Hmm, mud, Shogunate, Empire, Modern. What else is there to know, exactly? About how they boiled people alive and murdered their own children? What a rich culture....

[@PiscestheDirty]

This 5 mins can be 45 mins lecture in film making school. Every frame, every single word and the color. Emmys, oscars globe what ever give them all the awards

[@williamscottgordon628]

I've lived in Japan for decades and speak the (modern-day) language fluently; my business Japanese only started improving as my career changed over the past 10 years or so. I can't imagine mastering the formalities required to speak in the presence of ancient Japanese royalty, and yet, someone back then did! It's nice to see linguistic and cultural aspects of this bygone era being given such care even in a series that is, ultimately, a piece of streaming blockbuster entertainment. Looking forward to watching this with my wife, who like me is quite a fan of Sanada-san. Hope he finally gets his due Stateside after all these years.

[@alexandrefernandes7444]

As a Portuguese person, I congratulate the film's technical team, they did a good job of researching the Portuguese historical personality.

[@Putinism2024]

Why are you so happy they are trying hard to denigrate the portuguese catholic by distorting history here

[@alexandrefernandes7444]

Despite being a work of literature, the author James Clavell, probably out of envy at the success of the Portuguese in their relationship with the Japanese, tried to denigrate the image of the Portuguese, to promote his book. unfortunately this type of behavior is normal in Anglo-Saxon culture.

[@AFGuidesHD]

@@alexandrefernandes7444 There's literally nothing to be envious of Portugal lol. He obviously researched William Adams and found a very interesting story to tell. Adams was English and the Catholics were the enemies of England. It's not hard to understand.

[@valeriodelaurentiis5614]

​@@AFGuidesHDPortugal quite literally opened the doors for colonial expansion, there is a lot to envy, just like Spain or Britain were great Portugal was great aswell

[@vatsal7640]

​​@@valeriodelaurentiis5614oh careful, praising Colonialism in today's political correct/ woke world might get you lot of hatred 😅😅.

[@garyvahl7658]

Blackthorn and Lord Toronaga play chess while the others play checkers

[@sgttoasterface5282]

The scene plays out almost like a game of chess. The floor is square panels, you have the lord at the end of the room/board as the king, his daughter who speaks both languages/moves any direction as the queen, and his soldiers on the edges like rooks. The priest enters the room and moves like a knight. Blackthorn always moves straight ahead like a pawn, which normally would die early on, but every now and then you get the pawn that makes it to the other side and becomes a named piece, like when he’s named hatamoto in episode 3

[@weffyj6427]

@@sgttoasterface5282 Mariko is not Toronaga's daughter. She's a weapon.

[@1998rg]

Toranaga is playing chest with blackthorn as one of his pieces be real

[@Quinntus79]

Toranaga looks more like a Shogi player to me.

[@hannotn]

The Jesuits were master chess players, when it came to statecraft and politics.

[@Dhark0rion]

I love how the "conversation" is portrayed.

[@shingshongshamalama]

"See, there's Catholics and Protestants..." The entire Byzantine Empire: [stares in greek]

[@1412Bunny]

Byzantine Empire was long gone by this time.

[@meekmeads]

Eastetn Roman Empire was no more in 1600 😂😂😂😂 Unless you meant the Greek Orthodox Church

[@ottotot2097]

@@1412Bunny Yep, the Turks took care of than by than.

[@dlxmarks]

Let's just say Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox which covers a lot.

[@thebighurt2495]

To be fair, to an Englishman of this era, the Orthodox Church might as well not exist given both the distance and irrelevance

[@dsadawrware]

good job fx posting scenes that would be reposted anyway, promote your awesome show

[@mindfulskills]

So far, this series is GREAT.

[@artistcomplex]

This is a fantastic scene, and one of my favourite from the book. I'm particularly impressed as the book gives the inner monologue of several of the characters here as they scramble to find any advantages in the conversation, the actors have done an incredible job of conveying small emotions to us the audience, while still acting so carefully guarded and poker-faced as they do in the book.

[@tacobellalugosi2527]

The birth of a legendary friendship if you never read the book or watched the original mini series do so they are amazing . As is this version

[@SgtPrice1000]

I've been trying to learn Japanese for the last few months and this show is helping a LOT more than I thought it would. The constant exposure and the different dialects and ways of speaking is awesome!

[@matiasrocha317]

Cosmo Jarvis is wonderfull in this role . Everything in this show is so good , I can't wait to watch the next episode of Shōgun ⚔️⚔️⚔️⚔️⚔️ .

[@paulhoffmann4521]

I have to disagree. No disrespect, he is playing it well. It is just, when you saw the first movie with Richard Chamberlain, read the book and expect a roughneck as captain and see instead a babyface....it is disappointing. Sounds mean, but he is just the wrong chap for this particular job

[@Shamino1]

@@paulhoffmann4521 I much prefer Cosmo Jarvis so far to Richard Chamberlain's portrayal of Blackthorne. I believe Jarvis' portrayal is hampered by the changes in how scenes are being portrayed: Focusing on the 'purity of women' rather than drunkenly dancing and pissing off the guards, or failing to point at the Priest and shout "TEKI!" and so on, are stylistic choices that neuter the possibilities Cosmo Jarvis has to really demonstrate Blackthorne's character.

[@charliewatts6895]

@@paulhoffmann4521 Yeah, I feel the same way. But I grew up with the Shogun from the 1980s and Chamberlain's portrayal. I will say this - with each viewing I find it easier and easier to accept Jarvis in the role. I do like this remake.

[@paulhoffmann4521]

@@Shamino1 He does everything right. It is just the looks that - in my opinion - don't match the character of John Blackthorne. He just looks too soft, like a schoolboy, for that role

[@ShingoShojiPL]

Well, real sailors werent like Chamberlain - softspoken and clean looking. Jarvis is more fitting in historical context.

[@shivamarya5225]

This whole sequence was just so good

[@brucelee7782]

just that small smile by hiroyuki at the end there. Brilliant

[@BelloBudo007]

I recently watched again, the Shogun of Richard Chamberlain and after many years, enjoyed it all over again. This though looks like being a very good take on the story. I look forward to being able to watch and enjoy it.

[@andymccurdy5029]

its rare i watch a period drama getting me to watch 1 with sub titles is like squeezing blood from a stone but god dam you got me

[@sveng35]

You spoiled Americans, you.

[@maaz322]

they have pretty good English voiceover if you're interested, though I prefer subtitles

[@andymccurdy5029]

@maaz322thank I know thanks. this is prob one of the very rare times I'd rather have the subs. The authenticity would be ruined with dubs.

[@davidholaday2817]

This show is absolutely fantastic.

[@mfhex1398]

FX truly making a name for themselves with quality productions like this or reservation dogs. Thinking outside the box and letting people do their best. Kudos from Germany!

[@mzytryck]

Interesting that Toranaga had Mariko here for this meeting when he didn't in the book. In the book Toranaga trusted Alvito completely and Alvito justified that by translating accurately even without a second interpreter present to check his translation. He communicated a lot of Blackthorne's statements that were damaging to the Portuguese, apparently just out of personal integrity and the certainty that Blackthorne would doom himself even without any manipulation from him (although he might also have known that Toranaga was discerning enough that he might notice signs of Alvito being dishonest even if he couldn't understand the words). Here, his consternation on seeing Mariko suggests he was hoping to weigh things against Blackthorne, (though, to give him the benefit of the doubt, he might have just been worried by the sign that Toranaga didn't completely trust him.)

[@marcp.1752]

I've watched Shogun with Richard Chamberlain, legend Toshiro Mifune and Yoko Shimada at the age of 11...i instantly disliked Father Alvito into #1 place into the original series..there was something sneaky, fishy from that character, i couldn't stand.

[@ronny2shoes]

^ 100% agree. I knew as soon as he appeared on my screen that he was going to be a sneaky little rat. Glad Mirako-sama was here to make sure he couldn’t mistranslate Blackthorne’s words.

[@Talyrion]

@@ronny2shoes The irony is, of course, that he turns out to be one of the most straightforward and honest character in the show. Albeit one stuck between a rock and a hard place.

[@kamiageonakmas7078]

Frederik CRYNS Born in Belgium, he became interested in Japanese history after watching "Shogun" as a child. He entrusted with the overall historical research for remake of "Shogun ". 1993 Licenciaat, KU Leuven 2000 M.A, Kyoto University 2003 Ph.D., Kyoto University 2022 Professor, Deputy Director-General, International Research Center for Japanese Studies p.s. He said the job was deeply moving. I think he is the best person for the work because with his Western sensibilities and deep knowledge of Japanese history, he can tell both the U.S. and Japan exactly accurate picture of the samurai period.

[@raykhetab4890]

Hiroyuki Sanada is such a well respected actor its very hard to see the character he is playing. Sanada speaks English very well and a lot of people know that, I for one was expecting him to speak it in the series somehow.

[@CarolineNiggAyaLee-Janet]

As a person who lives in Japan and studies history academically for job, the show did it better than the book. I know people will come at me for diss the OG, because people just blindly protect the OG. The fact that this series dealt with the westerncentric nuances in the book and made it more critical is what makes this show great.

[@めておら-b6p]

The translator in this scene is probably the best part of this entire episode. Code switching on the dime like that is something difficult to do. Even between Germanic languages. Imagine trying to code switch like that between two languages that are completely and utterly alien to each other.

[@EliSkylander]

Theologian and philosopher here. I want to point out how well the priest is depicted as a man with full confidence in the truth, so much that even the show treats him as a pure translator. He dissembles not, for he believes the truth is a greater ally against this declared enemy. The show gave this much character to a side character. As a Christian, i cannot disagree with his actions, but instead must applaud him. Doing so, i must applaud the actor, the writer, and the director. I am amazed to see, in a show not about Christianity at all, an exemplar of the best Christianity has to offer the world outside of a religious sense.

[@jaycee4504]

One of the dopest shows i ever scene ✨ So beautiful, well written, interesting culture and a fresh vision outside the box of common bs tv.. Thank you for making this ✊🥷

[@erikcote9241]

Love the way towards is portrayed. He is obviously highly cerebral and intelligent. Every word is carefully crafted.. he doesn’t waste his time emotional responses. This after all, would give him away to anyone seeking to do him harm.

[@JohnDoe-bh2lp]

No self respecting Asian man will accept this show as good. It didn't get half the hate Yasuke got, but it's a white-washing Oxford study white male asian female projecting show. Blackthorne didn't do half the things the real life counterpart did, but is being portrayed as historical. Awful show, white agenda pushers like you love it though.

[@mistavimes3366]

This show was the best thing I’ve seen in years

[@JohnDoe-bh2lp]

Garbage

[@yvettemckinzie9082]

As someone who is old enough to remember the book and the original this right here is outstanding so far!

[@LegadosCulturales]

For the people in love with Japanese culture, this series is flawless.

[@Jack-uy7ie]

I think it is good they chose the story of William Adams.

[@badfoody]

I remember the 80s miniseries, such a well made show despite feeling dated. glad this series caries that same energy

[@abc92800]

i love his voice

[@KK-45]

The intensity of this scene is so good.

[@solokalnesaltam3015]

This show seems phenomenal

[@majemaje0805sweetvoice]

Toranaga (Tokugawa Ieyasu) defeated Ishido (Ishida Mitsunari) in the Battle of Sekigahara, unified the country, and established the Edo Shogunate, a military government that lasted for about 264 years from 1603 to 1867. This drama ends with the story up until the eve of the Battle of Sekigahara. Where will season 2 start? I would like to see a drama about the epic battle of Sekigahara, where 70,000 samurai from Toranaga's army clashed with 80,000 samurai from Ishido's army.

[@dannyzero692]

The influence of the Catholic Church upon the world throughout history should not be ignored, almost every culture throughout history have at least interacted with one of their priest.

[@raduvladimirmihalache9226]

Nasty business the catholic church has been running around the world for way too long. History has testified it in countless times. Thank God I was born and raised in a family of 2 different rites, other than the catholic mobsters

[@RA-dq4ro]

This is the best series I have ever seen. And I have seen quite a bunch. It's impeccable.

[@txfl467]

Watch the 1980s miniseries Shogun. Much better, and much more authentic in terms of Japanese language and culture.

[@finkejdf101]

This scene gives you goosebumps.

[@MrTeniguafez]

Toranaga was impressed by his show of deference without losing face. Not many people could learn to navigate the intricacies of Japanese court manners so quickly

[@P.Whitestrake]

This series better win some Emmys.

[@REOGURU]

Gosh. I hope there are additional seasons. I very much enjoyed this series! It was flawless. 🤟

[@papallegatepoope3010]

Portugal and England have never been at war with one another. They have the longest standing alliance

[@allyup3404]

You beat me too it. The treaty of Windsor was signed in 1382 and is the longest in history

[@Internoobs]

Someone mentioned that the conflict is likely the 80 year war, which saw Portugal and England at war as opposing allies to other nations, with Portugal being in the Iberian Union and therefore basically Spain in terms of foreign policy.

[@michaelmazowiecki9195]

At the time , 1600, Portugal was a vassal of Spain (1580-1640) having been conquered by Phillip II (he of the Armada) who crowned himself Philip I of Portugal.

[@TonyTylerDraws]

I love how the priest in this version doesn’t seem as manipulative as in the old miniseries. You get the feeling he’s just much as a pawn as everyone else

[@alexandrefernandes7444]

This scene is important because it tells how the ancient Portuguese related to other cultures. They invested in young people, not devaluing their importance for the future local society, and they had the trust of the Japanese elites, without deviating from the truth and maintaining honesty during the translation, as you can see.

[@allyup3404]

To my knowledge England and Portugal have never been at war. Treaty of Windsor

[@MrThhg]

@@allyup3404 they were under Spanish crown during this time. which was at war with England so yes they have.

[@PrinceOfDolAlmroth]

@@MrThhg Correct. Portugal wouldn't get its independence from Spain until I think 50-60 years after the show, and having Blackthorne as a privateer from Holland also is VERY accurate given how much damage the Dutch dealt to portugal's empire in southeast asia, which was the catalyst for Portugal declaring independence from spain later on.

OMG SO GOOD!!!!! wish this wasnt stuck behind hulu's crap

[@gibster9624]

Something subtle that I just picked up on was the Priest says their countries are in conflict but Toranaga says war. Can mean a lot of different things but the camera panning to where it is only facing Toranaga tells me that that was the moment he realizes Blackthorne can be useful and only Toranaga was able to sense that in the room. Great way to fully contrast Toranaga from Ishido and Yabushige.

[@Cornerboy73]

Excellent performances here all around.

[@drab2000]

2024: Portugal crying silently...

[@TamaKo-sc3es]

I think Cosmo did a great job as Anjin. And Tommy Bastow did a wonderful job as Father Alvito!! I am Japanese and I’m just amazed how perfectly Bastow mastered the language of like 400 years ago!!

[@wattlebough]

Wow. Amazing scene.

[@ernstlangmann]

Wasn't really planning on watching this show... This scene gave me enough chills to make me reconsider.

[@Softload3r]

04:50 why is he bowing down here? Out of respect? And why does Toranaga seem to be smiling? Because he's showing him respect, or showing him how loyal he is to his god and that he would commend himself to god if Toranaga would see him as an enemy?

[@Shamino1]

He bows in capitulation. He understands that he is in a foreign country with no friends and that his religious enemies are his only means of communicating. He's prostrating himself before the Lord to demonstrate that he understands he is fully at the mercy of Toranaga and his Japanese hosts. Toranaga smiles because although he is a total stranger to Japanese rules, etiquette, and courtly customs, his bow of capitulation is in line with courtly behaviors and is a sign of his integration into the power-dynamics of Japanese society.

[@SupahBro535]

@@Shamino1That was extremely well said. Thanks!

[@weffyj6427]

@@Shamino1 Yes, well said, but Toronaga smiling is a nod to Blackthorne's wiley intelligence.

[@Shamino1]

@@weffyj6427 Which is inferred through the language I utilized in my description. But yes, I appreciate you spelling it out more clearly for the grade-school readers.

[@mattsoca1]

He is bowing out of respect, and to some degree, to accentuate the fact that he is speaking the truth. Moreover, by bowing such that his head touches the floor, he is recognizing (and accepting) the "great" difference in position. Prior to the Meiji Restoration of the Emperor in 1868 (basically reestablishing government by the Emperor away from the Samurai Class), commoners were required to prostrate themselves on the ground (including the head and not looking up at anyone) whenever a Samurai Lord's procession passed. It should be noted that the Samurai class was not at the very top of Japanese society. The true royals in Japan were an extremely minute number by birth, and constituted what many refer to as the Noble Class that included the Emperor. The Samurai were the warrior class below the nobles, and were expected to show due deference to them. (Note: Using the English tern "noble" for accuracy sake, should not be used for those from the Samurai Class. The Samurai were warriors, not Royals.). Hence, Toranaga is apparently smiling because Blackthorn is paying him due respect, in the same manner as any other Japanese warrior or citizen of lower rank.

[@JDarach]

The way that it removes the translators from the scene entirely is so fascinating because that - that's the job of a good translator, to make themselves effectively invisible.

[@joec9693]

Blackthorne: There are two Christian Religions, Protestant and Catholic. Eastern Orthodox Church: Ummm we were here before you Mr. Protestant.

[@Threshk]

Orthodox Christianity was Eastern European, and there are no Eastern Europeans on this show.

[@xXxSkyViperxXx]

centuries later, they will learn about the religion of the roshia-jin

[@remzi-bs1vy]

Ah the Portuguese accent while speaking japanes and and english was so on point.

[@hystericbunny76]

What an amazing scene

[@tupaicindjeke275]

Greatest show I've seen this year...

[@simonbridges3835]

Bingo effort, Blackthorne! Top tier bit of grease-arsing, there! Never underestimate the potency of sycophancy 😂

[@JohnDoe-bh2lp]

No self respecting Asian man will accept this show as good. It didn't get half the hate Yasuke got, but it's a white-washing Oxford study white male asian female projecting show. Blackthorne didn't do half the things the real life counterpart did, but is being portrayed as historical.

[@wintermooonwolf]

like enjoyed the FRAMING of the shots...getting closer and closer und closer to the face of the speaker....wunderbar...

[@alexsky88749]

This scene, apart from being brilliant in the authenticity of the ancient Japanese language and the arguments, portrays the deep conflict between the Protestants and the Catholics in Europe (and beyond).At that time we were really talking about "religious wars", much different from todays wars in general. It was a full scale war in the name of God to obliterate your enemies.

[@Alexandros.Mograine]

Thats gotta be the best pirate i have ever seen.

[@rkem1000]

Amazing show I must say! I’m hooked

[@vinceb8041]

Gotta love the dialogue "I could not conceive of us being enemies." "I could, very easily."

[@terrarum8947]

To any history fans in the comment, I just want to ask. Were the tensions between catholics and protestants were really this bad? I understand why the priest would act this way, but would Blackthorne be really this negative to the priest even though they're both in a completely different land? I don't know much about pre 1700, so that's why I'm asking

[@sydryi3086]

yes it was this bad, the catholics saw the protestants as heretics and therefore an ofront to god, the protestants saw the catholics as greedy, liars, who hoard the wealth of innocents.

[@lembitmoislane.]

This was the time before the 30 years war, the peal of the internal Christian conflict and there had been wars over faith by this point so yes. Us Christians until relatively recently did not have friendly relations with Christians that had different beliefs and practices.

[@winter-jager]

History fan 🙋🏽‍♀️, I’m not sure about the pre 1700s per say, sorry, but I do know that King Henry the eighth, one of his kids, his eldest daughter, was Catholic, she was overlooked in favor of the King’s son and when she tried to fight the son, the fact that she was not of the same denomination as the country was a huge source of contention across England. And years later, under the reign of King Elizabeth II, Britain was Protestant while Ireland was Catholic and it was a problem when Britain tried to claim Ireland as a territory that is still an issue today. It caused Ireland to separate into Northern Ireland which is a British territory and the Republic of Ireland which is a country separate of British rule. So I could see how back then in the 1700s the tension could be that bad.

[@shayk4791]

Yup, this is the time of the Thirty Year War where Catholics and Protestants were massacring each other. The war was actually one of the most destructive time periods in Euope comparable to the scale of WW1 and WW2. Blackthorn grew up in that environment and genuinely thought the Catholics were 17th century Nazis.

[@MadJackMcJack]

There were multiple wars between the two faiths for almost 300 years, culminating in the brutal 30 years war. But on a personal level for Blackthorne the show is roughly set about 10 years after the Spanish Armada, where Spain tried to invade England and depose the protestant Queen and replace her with a catholic. So he'd be very wary of a Spanish ally.

[@HappyBoxer-nb1mb]

This series is a masterpiece

[@日巻やってた]

ショーグン見てから知ったがブラックソーンかっこええわ

[@sergeantsonso3490]

it is so interesting seeing a power-thirsting and conniving man like Toranaga have respect and admiration for exactly the opposite kind of person. It's not just about control here, either, at least, i dont get that impression. there is an aspect of the relationship, and truly the primary driver, is that the Anjin is a valuable tool for a leader like Toranaga, a sort of wild-card, or ace, so-to-speak, but I've seen time and time again Toranaga's eyes shine with a kind of love for people who are loyal and honest with him, and with others. To me, it seems like Fuedal Japan is a world where, at least in politics, conniving and plotting and scheming is the only tool for sucess, and Toranaga understands this and uses it out of necessity for his goal of building a better Japan, but at the same time this is the person he has to be, not who he necessarily would like to be, it's pragmatism at it's finest. brilliant acting and writing all around, this director is in a league of his own.

[@Softload3r]

I love everything except the camera lens they used, the fisheye kinda effect is really annoying and makes it seem more like dreamy or something. But in Episode 3 it seemed like they removed it? Or it wasn't as noticeable as in the first two episodes. Other than that it's an amazing show as of yet and I wholeheartedly recommend it to everyone! It feels so authentic!

[@shartley5343]

The only times it really bothers me are when the scene's on a boat in the daytime. It feels like a bad job at chrome keying a greenscreen, even when it's clearly a fully practical shot

[@hanscumyeah4216]

They intentionally do that so the scenes can fit in tiktok/reels vids format, thus extend this series publication

[@jangtheconqueror]

I want to watch this series again but watch specifically for all the moments Toranaga gives his tiny little smirk. I didn't notice he was doing it until the end, or maybe even after.

[@adb2165]

During this period of conflict, Country sailors are just well-groomed and properly dressed pirates..no difference in their deeds..

[@nationalsocialism3504]

He has a Letter of Marque from Holland... he's an active combatant in the Eighty Years War not a "pirate" (which the show has so far managed to not handle well.)

[@songsfromtheblackbox]

Okay, I've seen 2 preview videos of this series and it is goddamn good. I can't wait to actually watch it in full. O_O

[@SomeFactsYouMightNotKnow]

Bro forgot orthodoxy 😂😂😂

[@Shamino1]

Between 1590-1617 (the period this is taking place in) Orthodox-majority countries are being utterly blasted by the Ottoman Empire or too busy being serfs to project power abroad.

[@alyssalemoine00]

I think he views Christianity as catholic vs Protestant because England was at war with itself for hundreds of years over which was to be accepted/not accepted. I think. If I’m wrong.. I’m sorry

[@shartley5343]

IIRC by 1600, the only countries with a high Orthodox population were Greece and Russia. Everything else in Europe was Protestant or Catholic

[@j.a.pelaez6435]

Tbf Japan was still a century or SO to encounter Russia, and Greece was under Ottomans Rule,

[@Remitonov]

It wasn't relevant to the conversation, since Russia hadn't yet expanded to the Pacific, while the rest of the Orthodox world was under Muslim Ottoman rule or vassalage.

[@bugvswindshield]

One of the best series ever. GoT, Sopranos, Breaking Bad and now SHOGUN!!!!

[@HoleHunter9001]

Cosmo Jarvisa is gorgeous❤

[@CyberJoeyO]

These “first contact” moments in history are fascinating to read about and learn about. Both sides are dealing with something totally alien to them, and they are viewing things through their own “cultural lenses”.

[@crisjapopcris1564]

The most visually striking difference between the old 80's series with this new one is that dark foggy cloudy Japan which reminds me more England. I enjoyed very much the sunny external scenes of the 80's version, which were actually shot in Japan.

[@TrippyTimesTwo]

This has convinced me to watch this show. Wasn’t sold on it before, but this was interesting

[@alexandrefernandes7444]

In literary terms, John Blackthorne is just an ambitious English adventurer who tells the Japanese lies about the Portuguese, and at the same time does the dirty work of the Dutch at the time.

[@rokhnroll]

Anyone else notice the glaring error, The treaty of Windsor 1382. England has one of the longest peace treaties in history with Portugal.

[@mathyou33]

There was a war going on between the Netherlands and Spain in the early 1600’s which is when the show takes place. England was an ally to the Netherlands and Portugal was an ally to Spain. I think it was called the 80 year war if you want to look into it

[@rokhnroll]

@@mathyou33 Ah ok thanks I will take a look. It did seem odd to have such a huge error spanning the series, but nothing surprises me with regards to film makers bending the facts.

[@yanongkristohanonmusic7695]

I thought no one beats "Akira Kurusawa's" Movies....this one indeed beats all of them...

[@augustingarnier4625]

I read the 1,000-plus page novel twice (!!). Watched the Richard Chamberlain television series. Was mesmerized by this updated adaptation. However, it just dawned on me that in Father Alvito's meeting with Toronaga Sama, when Fr. Alvito sees the Anjin for the firsts time, he has kept Toronaga Sama waiting. That is a major clue of what has been, and what will become. After all these years there is still something to learn.