John Calvin vs John Piper: Doing vs Permitting

“CONTROLLING” VS “IN CONTROL”
A pilot is “in control” of his aircraft, but that does not mean he is “controlling” the thoughts, choices and actions of his crew and passengers.
Obviously all analogies fall short when speaking of how an infinite Being interacts with a finite world, but language does mean something and we must draw clear distinctions between what it means to be “sovereign” and what it means to deterministically control everything.
For a more complete look at how the word “Sovereign” is used in scripture please read ... soteriology101.wordpress.com/...
Dr. Leighton Flowers, Director of Apologetics for Texas Baptists, shows the inconsistency of those who promote Calvinistic "sovereignty" (as meticulous control) using the word "permission" in defense of their worldview. This inconsistency is best seen in the words of John Calvin himself who clearly denounces those who appeal to such verbiage when speaking of God's providence.
Piper's original broadcast can be found here: • Does God Control All T...
For more on this topic go to: www.soteriology101.com

[@ethandowler4669]

dude. around 20-23mins, I was about to start clapping lol. Leighton was on FIRE. I was one of the people who didn't understand Calvinism in its original form. I can't say I ever fully adopted it, but I definitely considered it. Dr. Flowers has made me reconsider.

[@DrgnSlyr]

Calvinism is so logically inconsistent it's hard to understand why any intelligent person with even an inkling of common sense could buy into it.

[@gregjay9933]

The growing popularity of Calvinism is a fulfilment of the prophecy - IN THE LAST DAYS THEY WILL NO LONGER ENDURE SOUND DOCTRINE

[@robertofunk673]

Excellent&helpful brother!

[@athb4hu]

Excellent at usual. Thanks for pointing out that Calvinism is Gnostic.

[@kimberleerivera7062]

Glory to GOD!!! Thank you Leighton Flowers for this very important explanation of the difference between "determining" and "foreknowing." That it doesn't mean that GOD has to determine something to happen in order to foreknow it happening. (The example of the boy kicking the dog) was an excellent explanation!

[@jefferypassagecpa9125]

Sovereignty in the dictionary refers to one's Being, not Doing. Using sovereignty to claim "meticulous divine determinism" is a misapplication of the word. God is definitely sovereign, because He is Who He is.

[@inTruthbyGrace]

no doubt... it's as if Calvinists think they are getting more points w men and God because they recognize He is God... like a swimmer continually reminding everyone how wet water is to show off they are soo familiar with water. Sorry guys but even atheists can comprehend that "God" would, of necessity of job description as Creator, be sovereign... They don't repeat it because it suits God, they say it to suit themselves that they are sooo pious: Jesus clearly states "I receive not honor (Δόξαν/glory) from men"... this little epithet of repeating God is "sovereign" is like the Jews not using vowels, the Muslims' allahuh akbar, or Catholic's doing the sign of the cross... its a pathetic exercise of meaningless piety meant to draw attention to the individual so others will consider them distinct and pious. It's vain.

[@JamesMC04]

@@inTruthbyGrace That is an attack on Calvinists - it leaves the Calvinist understanding of Divine sovereignty untouched. And that understanding has nothing at all to do with being thought well of by men. If Calvinists were so eager to be thought well of by men, why would they preach, insist upon, explain and defend so many doctrines that cause them to be attacked instead ? If the Calvinist understanding of Divine sovereignty is to be rejected - what do its critics propose instead, and on what grounds ? The doctrine known as the Sovereignty of God follows from what Scripture says about His Providence, His being the Creator of all things, His Universal Kingship, His inexhaustible Wisdom, Greatness & Majesty, the subjection of all created things to Him, the impossibility of escaping His knowledge, and other such truths taught in Scripture. This doctrine glorifies the Tri-Une God, reminds man of his dependency on God, promotes boundless confidence in the Power, Wisdom & Goodness of God, underlines the boundless Majesty, Royal Authority, and saving Power of Christ the King, and suggests many other thoughts that exalt and praise God & everything about Him. God is always and in all things to be blessed, praised, magnified, glorified, adored, thanked, honoured, loved, obeyed, and meditated on. And the doctrine of God’s boundless sovereignty over all things, is a very powerful motive for Christians to do these things, gladly, often, and with joy. So it is a doctrine of great practical value. As such, it is a gift of God, and further evidence of the Mercy of God. None of this doctrine has the remotest connection to being thought well of by men. The only approval that matters in the end, is God’s. As someone has said, “What we are in God’s eyes, is what we truly are”. People who are convinced, as in the presence of God (which all creatures are) that they are only what God thinks of them, are not going to angle for human praise.

[@kellyneumann8234]

Preach it, my dear brother!

[@michaelgrosz27]

I need to read that book again

[@Bogonavt]

Would you please give me a reference where Calvin says these things? I don't want to go throught all his writings but i want to to be able telling people i read it myself, not just heard from someone misrepresenting me Calvin

[@michaelgrosz27]

I enjoy your teaching by the way

[@DanThaSuperman1]

Your thumbnails are always hilarious.

[@20july1944]

Dan: Everyone, past present and future, is already and irrevocably either a sheep or goat in God's foreknowledge.

[@Hebrew42Day]

Sovereignty isn't even a term in the greek text. (or Hebrew for the Old Testament)

[@inTruthbyGrace]

Calvinists don't really care _what_ is in the Greek text... they translate κόσμον (world), παντὸς (every), πᾶς (every) as "elect", they ignore entire portions of passages like the "ἐν αὐτῷ" (in Him) part of Eph 1:4... they could care less that God is not even mentioned in Acts 13:48 let alone doing anything, but that nations are the ones doing the appointing unto eternal life because the Greek is a 3rd person PLURL active indicative IMPERFECT (they believed as many as they were appointing to eternal life)... no. calvinists do not care much for the authority of Scripture unless it was written by Calvin.

[@michaelgrosz27]

I do have the that book The eternal predestination of god I thought somewhere in the book you said you can go against God‘s will but you can’t go against God’s will without God‘s will God I may not want you to do a thing but God’s will might allow or permit you to do a thing

[@tatie7604]

What happened to Piper's son?

[@sanctuarystone]

Great teaching, thank you so much.

[@lansan3430]

Provisionalism sounds good. I am a Provisionalist then! :-)

[@JonathanGrandt]

Lan San or a Bible believer... 😏

[@malcolmjabier3846]

Have you have never read the Old Testament?

[@michaelgrosz27]

did John Calvin ever contradict himself

[@JohnQPublic11]

Actually Calvinists believe their potter god *DECREED* the motion of every atom, so by definition it is axiomatically true that the goat hating potter god is the personal author and cause of *EVERBODY’s* thoughts, words and desires.

[@jefferypassagecpa9125]

John Q. Public John Q, brutally honest. The Cal brain is swirling.

[@davidpufahl1834]

I remember reading what you wrote on another video about God intervening in Mans free will only in relation to accomplishing the Gospel and that those people would be judged accordingly. So do you still hold to that God only intervenes in mans free will in accordance to the direction it was already going? Like pharoh for instance, he continually hardened himself over and over before God ultimately hardened him for his own purpose. Or are you implying there is a possibility that Pharoh or Judas actually would have desired to be faithful servants of God but he interfered with their free will causing them to do otherwise? Sorry if this is dumb, im just still learning. I guess the simple question might be would God harden a believer to accomplish the goal of the gospel or only the already lost/hardened? Thanks!

[@JohnQPublic11]

Andy --- While GOD has the power and authority to do whatever HE wills, it is unlikely HE would harden the will of a believer, but HE could. Likewise, while GOD may further harden an unbeliever to accomplish HIS will, it is still possible the person whose heart was hardened could be released from GODs hardening and become a believer after GODs will was accomplished, i.e. it is possible Pharaoh could have become a believer before he died.

[@davidpufahl1834]

Then how do we ever really differentiate what is and what isn't accomplishing Gods will when we consider every act small or large does have some significance on Gods greater plan? My point is everything we do ultimately fulfills Gods ultimate plan so by what you are saying, it sounds like God could indeed be acting in a meticulous determination type fashion? Again, please dont think I'm coming at you lol, I'm really trying to understand this stuff because clearly i don't. When I start leaning one way(free will) i come up with a question for the other (calvinism) and i seem to keep going back and forth not really making any progress. When I was saved 3 years ago, my walk beared much fruit but as of discovering calvinsim which has lead to conversations and questions such as these my walk has beared little fruit and is not the same. I know Pastor Flowers takes a side but the more i dig into this stuff the more I believe in a very soft calvinistic approach (probably not the right name), kind of meaning both TULIP and Free Will are ultimately correct, one neither more correct that the other and that our finite minds cannot understand because we are not God, but in faith (ultimately what christianity is based on) we trust it works with God. Letting the secret things of God be just that. The bible preaches election and free will equally so even though we cannot understand how this can be it must mean they are both equally true and we just have to accept it in faith. Again please do not think im making a dogmatic statement because I dont claim to know but honestly the only thing that seems to make sense is that I cannot and will not be able to make sense of all the things of God. It seems the more I try to figure out God and his ways the more i greive the Holy Spirit in some ways. Its like just believing the bible at face value for what it says and not trying to emphasize one more than the other exercises faith(the spirit) and trying to understand how I can reconcile the two into one exercises the mind (flesh). Again thanks alot for your response, God bless!

[@JohnQPublic11]

Andy --- Thanks for your comments. All I can tell you is this. [1] Outside of the time where the bible is talking about the Apostles being "the elect", the elect and those predestined to salvation are a *"group"* of individuals and not *"specifically named"* individuals. [2] GODs sovereignty means HE has the power and authority to do as HE wills, it *does not* mean HE meticulously controls the vibration of each individual atom in the universe, HE solved that problem/worry when HE invented the four laws of nature. Once a person understands those two things everything else should fall into place. Good luck and GOD bless.

[@bobbyadkins6983]

Why do you insist that those who blame God are saved?

[@bobbyadkins6983]

No matter what fancy words you use, if you blame God for all the evil in the world, you are not saved. Piper needs to find the true JESUS of the Bible.

[@JonathanGrandt]

A super Calvinist recently said “one rouge molecule and God does not exist..” in his argument for the “fact” that God meticulously makes everything that happens to happen. I had said once, “God is infinitely intelligent and wise so He doesn’t need to meticulously control everything...” I was told this was a silly way to frame it. I would like to say I am stoic enough that such a comment doesn’t have any impact on me but let’s face it, stoicism is boring. I much rather attack him like a volcano made of teeth and fingernails... ok ok no it made me a little sad... but... that’s the point of that type of remark, no argument just a little dig at my silliness. 🙄

[@JonathanGrandt]

Why limit an all-wise God to needing to control every little thing? And if I were to extend them the same courtesy that they offer me, by calling me a heretic or silly... sigh. But that’s not love to return crap for crap.

[@JonathanGrandt]

He said, “Why would a being all wise and intelligent NOT need to control everything?” I said, “all you’re telling me is what you would do... not what the Bible says God does...”

[@dogangregory4507]

Horrendous! Blind.....

[@jerem0621]

Curious...when a Reformed theologian presents their position it’s usually accompanied by many supporting scriptures. I hate to sound rude, I don’t mean it as such, but I found 33 minutes of monologue with very few scriptures used to support your position. Of course, I’m new to your channel as this is my first video on your channel. I would like to know what you think of the word “all” in the following scriptures. And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. - Romans 8:28 And ... also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, - Ephesians 1:11 Genuinely curious.

[@JamesMC04]

The difference between controlling, &, being in control, reflects a real distinction as applied to activity by creatures. It is not clear that, whether, or how this distinction is applicable to God’s action toward or within creatures. God, after all, is the Transcendent Holy One, the One Who is not comparable to His creatures in any way: They resemble their Creator in some ways - He does not resemble them. God acts like God - not like man. If it were not for the gift of God’s gracious Self-disclosure that we call Divine Revelation - principally in Jesus Christ, but also in the Bible - man could know nothing certain about God; nor would it be possible to say anything true about God, nor could truths about God be recognised as true.

[@JamesMC04]

@HillDueceua God is not a created being. Man, the angels, and all other beings than God, are. So our human talk is bound, limited, by: (1) our limitedness as human creatures (2) the discourse between human creatures that is known as logic. The rules of logic arise from the use of it, so that different minds can be, and remain, mutually intelligible. God is not “bound by” anything - but we are. (3) Because humans are humans - and not, say, angels, cats, or subatomic particles - we perceive and respond to God in a human manner, affected by the fact of our being human, and also, by the kind of person each of us is. How does Calvinism say or imply that God is bound by the rules of logic ? Calvinism (1) draws conclusions from Scripture - as do all Christian theologies; (2) seeks to reason systematically about God; but that does not imply that God is bound by the rules of logic. (3) emphasises the transcendence of God, and very strongly too - but that is almost the opposite of saying God is bound by logic. (4) There are Christian theologies that might not unreasonably be criticised as trying to limit God by logic - but I don’t see Calvinist theology as one of them. I don’t deny that that is a temptation - but I don’t think it is a fact. (4) There are many passages within the Bible that act as checks on the all too human human tendency to reduce and limit God by thinking of God as something bounded by human reason and logic. (5) Calvinist Christianity is acutely conscious of the danger of idolatry - its constant, repeated, immersion in the Bible helps it to be wary of this danger. A God who could be limited by human logic would be far too small a god for Calvinism. (6) If anything, Calvinism might with some plausibility be accused of tending to emphasise the majesty, glory. exaltedness of God so strongly, as to make God unknowable. The Calvinist distaste for natural theology could be seen as supporting that accusation.