S23E16 Firing Line w/ William F. Buckley, "A Bishop Rethinks Sexuality" Richard Neuhaus, John Spong,

[@rrickarr]

I once played (organ) at an adult confirmation service which Bishop Spong presided over. He was one of the most down to earth, kind, loving, and uplifting clerics I have ever met, and I have played in churches for 25 years.

[@johnnyd.5466]

Spong is so patient and respectful, while being attacked for being a thinking Christian. And he hasn't wavered. I have such admiration for him.

[@metatron4890]

John Davies he is a clown.

[@judsondunlap2923]

I also find Spong warmly engaging and easy to listen to, but at the same time, I believe his views are ultimately hurtful to those on the margins of society. He naively argues that embracing our society's narcissistic approach to life in the name of a Pauline "ethic of love" is the better way to worship God today. I completely disagree with this and fear this view has taken hold in much of our society and the church. But I pray that all can continue debating these good things in love and invite God in to help us see more clearly and compassionately.

[@MrAquinas1]

How much "thought" does he, or you for that matter, give to the masses of babies whose slaughter he aids and abets, in his cold-blooded support for abortion?

[@ianp.7536]

I would agree; though I don't always agree with him; he is a man of great intellect, compassion and care. He is also often categorized unfairly by Evangelicals.

[@PrenticeBoy1688]

Listen to what Spong says, not how he says it. It's empty spiritual nonsense. One cannot claim to be a Christian whilst rejecting the tenets of the historical Christian Faith. It's arrogance on a stunning level to disbelieve but rather than withdrawing from the religion, to try to set about reorienting the religion to suit one's own beliefs. In other media appearances, Spong says that he doesn't want to compete with those who hold orthodox theology, but rather wants to walk with them. He demonstrated his sincerity by actively subverting orthodox Christianity in his diocese and in the national church.

[@grahamcombs4752]

Fr. Neuhaus's compassion, experience, and thoughtfulness never fail to hit their marks in his response to the bishop's numbness to the plague of promiscuity and infidelity.

[@brildidge9523]

He keeps interrupting Bishop Spong and not giving him room to answer one question at a time.

[@grahamcombs4752]

As a former Episcopalian and a convert to the Catholic Church, Bishop Spong is one reason why I left his church. His theology is not only radical, but incoherent, and essentially post-Christian. The Church of England throughout the English-speaking world is literally moribund. Only in Africa is it robust and that is because Anglicanism remains recognizably Christian there. As for the late Fr. Neuhaus, if you want to have a debate with him, you have to equal him in thought and energy. He played a significant role in my own conversion. @@brildidge9523

[@edwardbaker1331]

@@brildidge9523 He has no answers. He never gave any thought to the damage done by moral nihilism.

[@HansLiu23]

They both make some interesting points.

[@edwardbaker1331]

No, only Neuhaus did. Sprong is an idiot.

[@rypoelk997]

It would’ve been nice if they didn’t interrupt the wise man and let him speak

[@edwardgarcia3718]

Spong comes at faith as an open-door where anything goes as long as it's in the name of his twisted idea of "love". It's bizarre that he even thinks of himself as a Christian.

[@PrenticeBoy1688]

In his debate with Dr. James White, White asks Spong that if he (White) were to dress like an imam, claim to be a liberal muslim but deny that allah exists, deny that the koran was inspired, and deny that Muhammad was a prophet, could he be rightly called a muslim. Spong didn't answer.

[@vincent.mazkett187]

They still talk like in the 1950s But I love the JSS thoughts

[@sketchbook1]

When seeing Bishop Spong's debates and sermons on this very topic from recently, before he passed-- MY thought was the same as pastor Neuhaus': NOBODY CALLS BISHOP SPONG on his ANTI-TRADITIONAL DOCTRINE BIGOTRY. Because that's what it is. It is prejudiced. He always mentions "science" and "modern thought" and so on, when he dismisses traditional evangelical beliefs. ESPECIALLY if those beliefs are sincere and fundamental. That is, once one still believes in traditional Christian morality or the scriptures, that person is labeled ignorant or backward.

[@edwardbaker1331]

Not only that. The definition of atheism is the belief that truth changes. Man creates no truth at all. All truth is the reflection of the unchanging mind of God. We can articulate truth and do so creatively, but we create none of it. God is not an idiot who deprived the peoples of the past adaquate knowledge of how to order their lives together morally.

[@barelyprotestant5365]

This debate is awesome. Dear Lord, Spong is embarrassing.

[@PrenticeBoy1688]

Have you seen his 'debate' with Dr. James White? Spong is completely blind to his own arrogance.

[@brildidge9523]

@@PrenticeBoy1688 Well, surely he is no more blind than the person next to him who won't allow him to answer a question without interrupting.

[@PrenticeBoy1688]

@@brildidge9523 Are you referring to the host whose show this was?

[@brildidge9523]

@@PrenticeBoy1688 No. I refer to the priest.

[@PrenticeBoy1688]

@@brildidge9523 Is that arrogance on the part of the Lutheran minister? Maybe. However, Spong thought that traditional Christianity was nonsense, that it needed to change, and that he was the man to save the Christian Faith from itself. He disingenuously claimed to subscribe to all the creeds of the Church, when, in fact, he subscribed to his own reinterpretations of the creeds. Furthermore, he maligned those who actually held to traditional Christian doctrine, accusing them of homophobia and hatred. I'd say that somebody who lost, or perhaps never had, faith in the Christian religion but rather than leaving it, sought to redefine it to his taste, is pretty darn arrogant. Imagine taking a cheque for being a Christian clergyman when you believe none of the tenets of that religion. Dressing up as a representative of a Faith you despise...

[@jerryklooster438]

Isn't it remarkable how history has shown Buckley and his cohorts to be wrong on so many topics: Vietnam, gay marriage, American military intervention into eastern Europe, civil rights, and the list goes on. And it's not just that he was wrong; it's that he was so proudly and confidently wrong. That's not to say he wasn't some kind of gatekeeper against the far right lunatics of his day, that's just not a justification for his own reprehensible positions.

[@faith_alone]

Gay marriage was wrong 6k years ago when God made the earth, was wrong in the 1980s, and is wrong now that the fake Christian bishop went on home to Hell where he belongs

[@jerryklooster438]

@@faith_alone Faith is not a virtue.

[@faith_alone]

@@jerryklooster438 Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Good luck Judgement Day. You'll find out just how dreadfully wrong you are.

[@jerryklooster438]

@@faith_alone "the problem with the world is that fools have faith, and wise people always question themselves." Bertrand Russell

[@faith_alone]

@@jerryklooster438 God doesn't care what Bertrand Russel, or any other fragile sinner thinks or says. You could quote 10,000 like-minded God haters, they mean nothing. You will find that out one day.

[@WintersWar]

I see Spong was divorced the year this was aired. no wonder he's bitter towards marriage.

[@Abr022575]

He's bitter toward marriage?

[@MrAquinas1]

@@Abr022575 Obviously. He's bitter towards fidelity.

[@eds5047]

The d. In wiki with respect to his first wife means deceased, not divorced. Bishop Spong was never divorced.

[@rypoelk997]

Newt Gingrich has him beat by three today.

[@ryansumpter6993]

I pray for Spong. He's dead now I believe. How he could continue to call himself a Christian up to his death, I know not. Of course he could have possibly repented and accepted The Truth who is Jesus Christ!! His arguments got more and more strange as time went on. Nehaus never wavered in faith, soon after this recording he was reconciled with The Church of Rome and was ordained a priest. The last time I remember watching a video of Spong preaching he denied the Resurrection of Our Lord!! So sad. May their souls and the souls of the faithful departed rest in peace. Amen.

[@brildidge9523]

Well, at least you know that you are on the right bus.

[@madshadows7083]

Buckley and Neuhaus exhibit their typical condescending, snobby, North Atlantic judgmental attitudes whereas Bishop Spong speaks with his gentle spirit of peace and acceptance. I'm embarrassed for Buckley and Neuhaus. As usual, conservatism has proved to be on the wrong side of history.

[@MrAquinas1]

Truth and decency is always on the wrong side of history, but it's on the right side of goodness. If you would take a timeout from your snotty, condescending secular judgmental attitudes that demands moral nihilism for all, you too might cease making such shallow embarrassing comments.

[@PrenticeBoy1688]

John Shelby Spong has the arrogance to reject the historic definition of Christianity and calls those who hold to Christian orthodoxy a bunch of names. He lumps us in with klansmen, misogynists and Nazis. He's a true blue-blood elitist who thinks he's far nobler and cleverer than we poor, ignorant spiritual peasants.

[@judegeorge3201]

Interesting.