SMALL ROOM ACOUSTICS for beginners

This episode is brought to you by T+A:
👉 www.ta-hifi.de/en/
🎥 Cameras: John Darko
🎬 Editor: John Darko
🕺🏻 Motion GFX: John Darko
💰 Ad segment: Jana Dagdagan
🎵 Song IDs? Playlists of all music heard in this video - and other videos - can be found on PATREON: / johndarko
0:00 Intro
1:26 Voodoo
3:57 RT60
8:04 Schröder
13:04 Bass first
16:29 Priorities
18:02 One surface
21:25 Side walls
22:30 Open plan
25:43 Curtains
27:25 Furniture
31:20 Wishful thinking
32:59 Room vs. speakers
35:30 Speaker position
40:02 Rugs
40:50 Object size
42:32 Walls
45:17 Windows
47:24 Windows again
48:31 Narrow or wide
52:24 Room Correction Software
55:22 DSP again
59:17 Late night listening
1:00:28 All speakers
1:02:29 Music choices
👉 As mentioned in this video...
All room treatment/s by Vicoustic
📖 audioadvice.io/Vicoustic
What are those green speakers?
🛒 howl.me/cl1S8kB69fo
Jesco's website
📖 www.jescolohan.com/
More about RT60
📺 • Your ROOM is messing u...
My first room treatment (Berlin)
📺 • Your ROOM is messing u...
My first interview with Jesco Lohan
📺 • Jesco Lohan (Acoustics...
Cables and power products by AudioQuest
🛒 audioadvice.io/Audioquest
Hi-fi furniture and speaker stands by Solid Steel
🛒 howl.me/ckbW9947Hdi
Darko.Audio may earn a small commission from items purchased via affiliate links, which are indicated with a '🛒'.
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[@syanhc]

It's not a small thing to say that Darko Audio is the best channel for audio. Of course, John covers reviews of new gear - speakers, DACs, amps, daps, headphones etc. But the channel also looks at room correction. John covers hifi shows. John discusses source material whether digital or physical. Darko gets into discussions on the future of audio formats and technology. This channel is consistently the best there is for audio. Period. He even compares audio to coffee! I mean - what more can we ask for. Yeah, I'm happy joining Patron a year ago and supporting the channel and getting John his cup of coffee. I'm happy to spend an hour watching the content too❤

[@4thewinir344]

John and his thoughtful approach to audio reviews through this channel is the antidote to the clickbait-y Cheap Audio Man.

[@pistopitpit]

You forgot to add his (subjectively speaking) great taste for music and even photography. Dude has Todd Hido’s Homes at Night book on display 👌

[@BARTSKI75]

💯 agree

[@maximumsoftness7469]

John - you are doing a GREAT service to the audio community. I can't think of another channel producing such outstanding content. Not just boilerplate "reviews" (reading the product spec sheet on a sponsored video), but rather interesting content for audio lovers. I think you've hit a proper stride with these interviews. The Steven Wilson interview was perhaps the best thing I've watched in ages (the format with both of you in front of the camera).

[@syanhc]

Agreed❤

[@roberthurley1685]

That was a great conversation. I especially dig the 'both/and' vs. 'either/or' approach to effort to make the best of what you have ... listening in a field, eh? . . . back in the day, I worked as a sound tech guy/roadie for an outdoor mid-70's music festival situation in a literal pasture surrounded by Vermont's Green Mountains (USA) - think where Maria von Trapp settles down after the Sound of Music story ... we set up our scaffolding and speakers (think opening scenes of Woodstock), get everything set up just after dark on a warm summer night and literally thousands of young folks settling into hundreds of campsites in the surrounding area, the night before the festival and we test the system with the Sticky FIngers album - you know the opening ... ... that riff echoing across that valley on that night and every camper screaming their rebel yells all around us and almost drowning out the speaker system ... my favorite night as a roadie

[@thefourthcolor]

Love the alternate camera angles to give us a better understanding of "the room." Very thematic!

[@jimfarrell4635]

There are so many rigid ideologues in audio, it is great to hear someone who understands nuance and complexity and clearly is in command of their subject. Good job, gents. Also my wife hasn't ruled out ceiling treatment in our main living room. Potentially, at least, a result.

[@davidparkes1508]

By far … the most informative and helpful discussion on room dynamics and sound treatment that I’ve experienced. Thank you so much for taking the time to discuss all these different scenarios and concepts. Truly enlightening.

[@Philear4124]

When it comes to furniture, I think a fabric-covered seat is preferable to a leather one. But you can be sure that we have become wiser from this interview. Grtz Phil

[@tomislavvukusic5051]

'babes, I know we've just spent £15k knocking the wall down to open the rooms up, but can I put a curtain up now to seperate them again?' She's gonna love that 😂

[@riccitone]

This has been EXTREMELY helpful. Thank you 🙏🏼

[@824tonimarie]

Wonderful interview ! Thank you John.

[@budgetaudiophilelife-long5461]

THANKS JOHN , for educating with someone who has the experience to help us🤗👍😁💚💚💚

[@erics.4113]

Thank you both for doing this. Great conversation with lots to think about!

[@rotaks1]

Absolutely fantastic episode! Loved every minute of the conversation.

[@garrygrube]

absolutely the best interview of this very complex topic.

[@adsph]

This is great content. Production is top notch. Thank you John.

[@dan-sc7fm]

Very informative. I am happy to see that you continue to educate and emphasize the importance of room treatment. And, it if you are a DIY person, it can be done relatively inexpensive with a little more information and investigation. I even emailed Jesko when I was doing my room treatment, and he answered back promptly with good feedback. The 15 absorption boxes I made (2'x4'x7" thick using 703 corning insulation, enclosed in light weight garden fabric and finished with a colored burlap fabric) dispersed at reflection points on walls and ceiling, along with floor treatment, makes all the difference in great sound. I spent aprox. 1500. dollars. total. Best money spent and was not difficult at all (actually a fun project to do yourself).

[@stephenmeckley]

Would love to hear more of this about diy'rs and what worked for them! Thanks for sharing

[@Dimitris_Pappas]

Very informative! Thank you both!

[@Krell666]

Fantastic interview, enjoyable and informative. Thanks!

[@christophernoto]

Great timing, John Darko! I got my Forte IVs a couple of months ago, so, now, it's time to look at treating the room. 👍👍

[@ora600]

What is your room size &amp and how do they sound?

[@michaelrossmaessler200]

Excellent video today John. Thank you for bringing in a guest expert who was very informative.

[@guillermobrito4987]

Thanks John, one of the best videos up to date. Hope you keep paying attention to us, humble begginers in the audiophile world. Greetings from Colombia

[@MH-mi6mk]

Hi all, great interview! The last points about the sort of music - the best place to enjoy Gregorian church music is an actual cathedral tells an important thing: next to perfecting your hifi SAVE, save some money for going out to real music concerts! Sometimes I calculate the number of concerts a hifi enthousiast could visit incl. travel, hotel and the opportunity to take a partner along - just for one pair of speakers…

[@tedrackley6233]

Excellent video, John. I watched the whole thing.

[@SaintDC42]

Excellent excellent interview! Thanks for this guidance

[@CandidSeagull]

Very interesting but I think I'll need to listen to it several times!

[@TS-ex4dl]

Excellent--explained no hype -make your own directions/decisions/lists. Check your hearing. Look forward for something important too recordings and transmissions. So many variables! Keep going on your discovery.

[@mikepedersen2042]

Thoroughly enjoyed this video. Your friend does a great job of speaking of these topics in real world ways that are far more than just dry academia.

[@davidmorris8121]

That was OUTSTANDING!

[@freovegan]

Fabulous interview John. It was useful as it was entertaining. Nicely done - great if you could do more like that

[@gln121970]

Thanks! This was very helpful!

[@Jim-pn8sc]

Great podcast!!!!

[@ericharrelson32]

Quite informative. Thanks

[@cesargutierrez4999]

Great information This guy is a genius in room acoustics!!! Ty!

[@davidread4342]

This is such a good video that explains what the real ossues are and that solutions are not blackb or white. Brilliant job.

[@thebestoffools]

This episode on room acoustics is brought to you by a pair of headphones (T + A). 😜

[@jptinc55]

Excellent video

[@Martin2002tii]

Thanks so much for this. Your videos on listening room acoustics have helped me a great deal. 1) I did a lot of experimenting and measuring to find the best listening and speaker positions. 2) I added some absorption and diffusion to the ceiling and walls, as much as practical for me. 3) I used Focus Fidelity software to make a room correction filter that I apply with Roon's DSP engine. I am really happy with the results in my small guest bedroom listening room.

[@CapnJack100]

Great info

[@fabianstein9470]

always nice to see someone listening to Syd Barrett.. Gigolo Aunt is a great tune! also a very interesting topic and very well explained by Jesco

[@sonusancti]

Given the fact that each room has its unique acoustic signature even after investing on treatment, our best efforts will still fall short. This is exactly why i advocate that passive treatment be augmented by active treatment i.e. the much derided tone controls and equalization devices. Used judiciously you will be surprised at how your itch to upgrade components melts away. Great subject John.

[@Montyzuma123]

How much......did I enjoy this. Absolutely fascinating. Thanks guys.

[@labalo5]

Incredible pieces of information being captured here. I see other people referencing this video indirectly. Kudos John. Thank you Jesco!

[@DPSingh-px4xu]

This is fascinating....

[@jyrkih6960]

One point on speaker types vs. room treatment: Most home speakers are designed to work with the support of room boundaries. Ie. their balance is expecting room gain to boost bass. Heavy acoustic treatment for lower bass removes the room gain and can make a home speakers sound lacking bass and also their output capacity on bass can run out.

[@phrwn]

Can't believe how interesting and informative 67 minutes on room acoustics could be. Great video!

[@genkifd]

This vid is what those objective speaker reviewers on youtube need to watch. i totally agree DSP should be used as a last resort. however DSP didnt work for me in my system.

[@erwindewit4073]

This is great! Thank you! I never really knew how the low end behaved and whether solid big furniture would tame it a bit. I guess I am lucky to have a wooden ceiling with MDF, 2 layers of insulation, oak floor and an upstairs, which seems to dissipate much of them energy...

[@zadraroberto275]

Great interview and great questions asked. Greetings from the wider Lisbon area from another audiophile expat.

[@markolivan224]

Despite what the manufacturer manual says, you have to treat the PSI AVAA like speakers. They are sensitive in response down to a millimeter in orientation and placement. You know it's sweetspot when the haze and black is better on one channel vs the other and no edge. Use high DR tracks to test then reconfirm with loud tracks where it doesn't congest.

[@leodesforges161]

My listening room is 7x11. I've been tweaking it for 18 months now. A lot of the things I though I couldn't do were proven wrong. The room is oriented the WIDE way. Much bigger sound stage this way. Speakers, which are rear ported are slammed against the wall. Philharmonic BMRs, so NOT small speakers. 64" equilateral triangle. I also have a DSP'd DIY sub so I am flat to 20 hz. Lots of room treatment, a bit of DSP and the result is stunning. WAY better than I could have imagined.

[@leon23leon]

My listening room is set up in a spare bedroom as approved by the financial controller. Maybe 4.5 metres by 4ish… Compromises… I get a dedicated space to pull music apart. I’ve measured the space before adding treatment and corrected. I’ve measured the space after adding room treatment and I found myself getting obsessed with correcting curves and chasing numbers. I force myself to remember that this is fun. Adding room treatment is fun!

[@djhmax09]

Way more informative than the series done by new record day, which had a lot of misinformation

[@eddents]

I'm watching this while literally crafting a plan for sound absorption in a new condo we moved into. Perfect timing. Thanks John!!

[@bobmcdade5217]

I can only go so far with creating my perfect listening room because I have to respect my wife's aesthetic. By far my best investment was 2 pairs of 'B' grade acoustic curtains that look like regular curtains (if a bit on the heavy side) but have utterly transformed the rooms acoustic. Admittedly, they cost thousands but my wife loves the way they look and I love them for the huge improvement in sound. FWIW they cover perhaps 25% of the wall space.

[@GPintoFerrao]

I watched this video very carefully and I have never felt myself as much in agreement with what was said as I did about acoustics and acoustic treatment. Thank you very much for providing us with this interview and this learning moment. Now if it's not too much to ask, I think it would be interesting to make a video on how to use acoustic processing such as Dirac as a complement to the most optimized hearing possible. Thanks once again

[@sudd3660]

small room acoustic is where i had my speakers for the last 6 years. tiny cube shaped, think you can forget about large soundstage, but still get a pleasant other sound. the improvement from non treated and non dsp to having large thick absorbers and doing dsp by ear is enormous. do all that you can to a room and use dsp, going back now is so bad sounding it is a joke of a hifi.

[@DAMN11KIDS]

I loved this!

[@sivasankar3349]

Hope you are doing well john... Long time no see.

[@Big-J-8579]

Very interesting. Yes headphones have there place but rarely for my listening.

[@andreasmisundberntsen9237]

Regarding DSP, over the past couple of months I built my own music server where I've implemented filters I've generated through the Acourate software. At 495 euro it's pretty expensive, and there's certainly a learning curve, but it's made the frequency response and focus (from correcting phase) a lot better. I have a couple of house curves that I can hop between, from having made different filters. These are loaded into the Hang Loose Convolver software, which runs as a VST plugin in Audirvana. Audirvana is connected to Tidal, as well as my flac library. This is certainly more work than just buying some streamer, but hey, tinkering is fun and I like to think that I'm getting more for my money. I did start off with a room with sub 400ms RT60 though.

[@klaushollinetz7494]

Great video, good advices from a pragmatic scientific base, which never neglects the actual situations. As a person who works in both fields, I know there are a lot of misconceptions and assumptions. But a room is a room, with all that acoustic purposes, there is no way around it (except headphones maybe).

[@yuriy8057]

Maybe the best overall solution for most people who can’t do very extended room treatment for each personal reason (cost, visual, rental etc etc) but who actually enjoy quality music is just get a great headphone amp and headphones and a good all in one music system for casual playback music/even movies.

[@audio_tron]

After watching this, I think I had some beginner’s luck with the room where my 2.1 system resides. Dimensions, speaker placement, walls, curtains, everything in its right place. I consider myself fortunate to have avoided the struggle of designing a good audio room.

[@suryadnb]

I'm surprised how much room we can hear on John's voice! Excellent interview

[@DarkoAudio]

That's because my chair was backed into the kitchen doorway behind the camera.

[@suryadnb]

@@DarkoAudio Oh, so that's the reverb of your untreated kitchen? You should consider putting acoustic panels in there!

[@DarkoAudio]

Well, that and I had major audio sync issues with my audio track on the video (that causes a reverb like sound)

[@Kukkema]

Would love a video on how exactly to measure and find the best listening position and speaker placement.

[@kyleo2113]

Excellent video have been watching both of you and then seeing you come together on both channels has been fantastic!! I am on the hifi end of the spectrum. I would love to hear more on rephasing as part of dsp/convolution etc. I have used it some and roon and Audirvana offer ways to use a convolver and I think some people like myself would be interested in learning more. Also, is half a wavelength the dimension when a frequency will begin seeing an object acoustically or full wavelength? Thank you!!

[@paulstebbing1171]

I have a big problem with bass modes at 40hz. I had a couple of 3 seater sofas purchased from a high street retailer, last year I replaced both with better quality handmade sofas and there was a definite improvement in the sound. But the biggest improvement was made when I used REW with Roon DSP.

[@ridinglifestwisties]

Great informative video. From your experience can you talk about room treatment when it comes to playing ATMOS music using say Sonos Era 300s? It seems ceiling treatment might hamper the reflections. Thanks!

[@ke5943]

This was such an interesting watch. Much appreciated. John have you heard about the Bristol university scientists who are working on soundproof wallpaper based of moths and how they absorb bat sound waves for survival? Very interesting and fingers crossed it works for our frequencies.

[@angi733]

Was looking for my endgame small room speaker without compromise; the Dynaudio Confidence 20 came out as the winner; a downward firing port (on top of the stand) is a rare and wonderful thing, solved a lot of my placement issues whilst not compromising elsewhere.

[@andreasmisundberntsen9237]

The Confidence 20 is very high up on my list of speakers to audition. I've heard they're power hungry though. What amp are you using?

[@captainmarvel69]

😂 11k damn hope there’s no compromise my friend ! Enjoy !

[@henriksrensen3220]

My endgame speakers are the Audiovector R1 Arrete

[@angi733]

@@andreasmisundberntsen9237 Actually not power hungry from what I have heard, but yes I do run them on my NAD M22v2 which is 300w into 8 Ohms with M12 Pre Amp. Sounds great. There is room to up the ante Electronics wise when I get to it. I haven’t heard them on a less powerful amp but reviews said they still work well. I did get them secondhand/ex demo from a dealer for £6250 which is still a lot of money but oh so worth it compared to others. They have scale and impact that most stand mounts kits can’t do, and all the detail and insight of a high end speaker but without the harsh and analytical leanings of the likes of Focal or Bowers speakers in the same price category. The tweeter is a real star, and everything is so palpable with strong bass too. About as good as I’m going to get for now in my small approx 4x4m room.

[@brownixx]

Thanks for the great video. I understand almost nobody acumulates books anymore, but what about the efect of big bookshelves whit lots of books in the four walls? I only have a small window and a door, in a 20sq meters with a very high ceiling.

[@christopherviers8302]

Let's say I'm building my dream home which will have a dedicated listening room... What would the dimensions be of the aforesaid room...? Should it be a square, or better yet, a rectangle to allow for generous speaker placement away from the front wall...? Great video...!!! Kudos...!!!

[@midmodaudio6576]

Great video, very informative but i do get lost sometimes because i don't fully understand some of the terminology. It would be great if your guest would do a primer on room acoustics.

[@KITFLETCH1]

Oh no… That base trap reveal moment!

[@gpapa31]

Any recommendations for ceiling acoustic absorption panels that I can also super glue?

[@garyherman6623]

Hey John...thanks for the video. I still have 20 minutes to go but have you provided some general parameters for room size dimensions....small room, medium, large?

[@RichL123]

Does anyone have a good video or forum post to suggest that reviews top monitor speakers? Or if John himself has one that would be preferable. Looking to buy a couple monitors for my new office setup soon

[@yukinok25]

super interesting video. really enjoyed it!

[@TriAmpHiFi]

Retractable room treatment?........................... Personal pictures, artwork & decoration is probably preferable over typical wall treatment panels. So think riffles in a sluice box. Ceiling to floor vertical blinds with pvc slats & fabric inserts. A ceiling height head rail could run 20 feet down the side walls hidden by crown molding or a valance. Touch the remote & run out the blinds. The slats' angle is variable to the wall or speakers. A little high frequency absorption is possible plus they can focus the reflection coming in to either the front wall, side wall or anywhere in between. It takes away the entire walls 1st reflection angle to the listening position. When done, touch the remote & pull back the whole thing to behind a drape or something. This then re-reveals all the personal pictures, artwork & decoration (windows too). WAF solved? Acid Jazz, Funk & Brass 🔈🔉🔊

[@enrico-nx1ow]

John, superb video. one question, are your speakers placed exactly the same distance from the sidewalls in your Berlin room? ❤

[@Cencolor]

So the room might be why I listened a couple of days ago to a Kef R3 and sounded way better than a Kef R7 towers?

[@richardpretorius4929]

Great video, John! A useful question to have asked Jesco might have been "what constitutes a small room from an acoustic perspective?" Fortunately, Jesco answered that question here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/o56Vip-jgrd2bNksi=vzNcX-r2pBIhs4px Jesco's tl;dr is that an acoustically small room is any room smaller than the average school classroom (after some Googling I found the average classroom is 900cm x 900cm x 280cm, but I guess this could vary a bit across the world).

[@carminedesanto6746]

Great video …and I went with headphones 🎧…a lot less “domestic issues “…😎

[@Staybrown11]

I’ve seen folks place small brass bells 🔔 in front of the tweeters or placed on ceiling or walls….any discussion on these ideas? I’ve also seen wood resonators….

[@davidchesters7040]

Hi John. Can you explain to me why your intro and incidental music sounds better with all my equipment over YT than my Pioneer PD-S904 or Spotify over my PC or through my Roku Boxes. Is it just the bitrate???.... Over my 4.1 stereo through my trusty brick of an amp (TEAC AR-630 MK2) and my Srythm NC25's (A much underated set of bluetooth headphones) it sound brill! Very few Audio reviewers seem to give themselves credibility in this way as you do. PS. any chance you could list tracks or link to them on YT if available, as I've never heard some of the stuff you use to test your systems and I have to keep skipping back, then going to find them to listen to what you were on about withing those tracks....Many Thanks, Big Fan DC :)

[@paule3999]

So, what is the best way to make soundstage wider? Distance between speakers and me is 2.7m.

[@kitereh]

Use Linn Tune Dem and Space Optimisation via a DSM, very helpful especially for larger loudspeakers in small rooms to address room modes.

[@jacobfreeman7427]

You read my mind just wiring my new house for audio. 5 1, 2.1 and 2 x 2.0. Can't wait but worried about overdoing it for the room size

[@zekiy6597]

Can anyone advise what material would be good to put into paintings?

[@air870]

So if I understand correctly, in a sequence of actions, first treat the ceiling, then the bass traps, then side/ back walls and finish it off with DSP.

[@stephens2r338]

Treat your corners first with bass traps then early reflections. Bass treatment takes up a lot of space that most cannot afford to loose. Corners offer best bass treatment for space used then ceilings they are an unused surface.

[@777galamian]

This is a great video if you want to fall asleep.

[@steenbondrop]

It's sience. It's physics. It's numbers. And they are real. When you want to have a soft "general" rule as an answer, it is almost abstract nonsense. Especially if you don't want to follow the advice anyway. But don't give up. Make a drawing...maybe with some arrows of how you imagine the different frequencies travel. The ideal for me is yo build a room within a room. I don't want to listen to the neighbours stereo etc either. Plasterboard and cheap wood and a drill for the screws. If people knew how little that actually can be made for, then a lot of audiophiles would do that....parallel walls reflect bass and can have "standing waves", but if you angle some side to be a slight funnel, you can kill bass. Also materials like rubber mats on a frame for low frequencies. The higher frequencies should be easier. Wool, curtains, books, paintings, carpets and even those fancy "acoustic" things you hang on the wall. But no one should start with thinking that it's a mystery. Calm down. It's a project. Listen to your music on headphones once in a while, even though you spent on speakers.

[@DeeDeeDanone]

Was expecting a Sonos headphone review tbh. 😂

[@remcogreve7982]

Headphones are the ultimate room treatment.

[@danwheetman6914]

A lot was over my “audio head “ but really interesting.

[@kaneltube]

One thing that I've found intriguing in your videos, is that your speakers seem to be placed asymmetrically, at least if you compare with your front wall absorbers and tv. Is this just an effect of where your camera is placed, or are you deliberately placing your speakers a bit asymmetric - if so, why?

[@klauskaan6320]

Schnitzel?

[@kalle3880]

On the left there is a vinyl with a house at night on the cover. Which album is that? I know it will ve something familiar but cant figure it out 😊

[@fen3184]

I'm reasonably sure it's a photography book - Todd Hido, House Hunting.

[@vondy4430]

Silversun Pickups - Neck of the Woods, great album

[@iariag1]

that was a good one, what size would you consider a small room??

[@DarkoAudio]

According to Jesco, 99% of lounge/hifi rooms are small rooms.

[@iariag1]

@@DarkoAudio I have a dedicated room in my garage in Portugal, 5.2 x 4.6 meters, is that considered small??

[@nowlistenherehifi]

@@iariag1yes, that is still considered ‘small’ in terms of “small room acoustics”.

[@ricardoreid2991]

Hi John how would i know if i need room acoustic treatment to my rooom ?

[@TheMinijobber]

Als erstes im Raum Klatschen und dem Ton / Echo zuhören.

[@homeaudiobasics]

Clap your hands