Roon 2.0 & ARC: WHAT'S GOING ON? 📝 ('Dear John')

[@DarkoAudio]

PLEASE READ *before commenting*! 1) All comments here are moderated by a third party 2) Polite comments that advance the conversation are most welcome 3) No URLs, racist/sexist remarks or conspiracy theories, please

[@GodfreyMann]

John, don’t buy into Danny’s story - I’ve written software just as complex as Roon and in software anything is possible. What Roon have done here is either an implementation choice or is extremely poor architectural design. Both are worrying. Let me explain. I’m not saying that Danny’s wrong about server-based search being the future in the sense it allows more possibilities…that’s certainly true, but there’s no technical reason why one would need to remove local file search and break local application functionality to achieve it. Back in 1999, I developed a client-server based data repository with dynamic folders that could operate on a corporate intranet but would allow users to copy folders offline. Users could store any kind of BLOBs (music, videos, office docs, etc). We could easily have implemented local (client-based) offline search functionality in addition to online search working seamlessly in tandem. It’s simply comes down to managing two separate index trees and having the system either automatically switch between the two depending on whether the user is online or offline (which the system would automatically detect) or allowing the user to manually force a given search. The variation in Roon’s uptime once the internet connection goes down seems indicative of the flaky way Roon has handled index caching on customers local clients/cores. The question is whether this is by design (on purpose) or simply an oversight? The fact that you’ve managed over 5 hours of normal use shows that Roon could provide functionality that keeps stable offline indexing and app functionality, so I find Danny’s response to you rather puzzling and extremely concerning because it smacks of fobbing you off with nonsense that has a similar M.O. as the MoFi engineers obfuscating with Mike from The In Groove. If I’ve understood the situation correctly, there are two lines of enquiry (both not pretty): 1) Roon doesn’t want to give users offline search and offline app functionality. Finding out the reasons for that might uncover interesting features of Roon’s business model that are currently opaque to us. 2) Roon simply over looked this issue in their rush to release Arc, which implies their software development team is third rate, because it means no one asked the question “what happens when the internet goes down”…it’s the most basic of questions begging to be asked in any design meeting. The worry with option 2 is whether or not our data is in good hands in the sense of our investment of time in Roon…after all it’s Roon’s metadata that we create and that it generates and processes as services that is Roon’s unique selling point, but if they’re using third rate engineers then data corruption/loss is a worry. Option 2 would also make Danny a bit like Liz Truss & Boris Johnson i.e. the kind of person to not admit mistakes and lie at all costs to save face. Personally, I just don’t buy into option 2, which makes option 1 the front runner which is so concerning as to make me rethink my loyalties…I really like Plex those guys have delivered in spades. If they were to offer sophisticated metadata based services then I’d switch in a heart beat. Sadly, I’ve too much invested in Roon to divest at this point, but if it carries on down this road trigger points will be reached as Truss/Johnson similarly discovered.

[@willx9352]

You might have written software - but you don’t run a company that yes, horror of horrors, actually needs to make a profit if it is going to continue to exist to supply us with its wonderful and transformative software and continue to employ its staff. I don’t know why you believe that Roon should disclose “interesting features” of its business model to you or anyone else. It is not a public company and is under no obligation to do so. Roon has made it clear that the reason for the shift is your option 1. There is plenty of other options, including Plex (which I think is awful, but each to his own) which is the joy of the free market.

[@batteries671]

Do you believe that they could offer their "cloud" server software to paying customers, perhaps a docker image that we could run on our own hardware if we had the means? After all, there is nothing special about the "cloud" it's just a series of server computers somewhere else

[@michaeltaormina4395]

If they can add offline access for the ARC mobile app, they should be able to make an offline mode for local/home core listening. Disable streaming services, disable advanced search/UI, and AI radio, but basic offline listening for local files should be available while the core is offline.

[@smudgybuzz]

Agreed. A limited, offline mode should be possible.

[@misterwoody_]

If I'm understanding this though, offline mode on mobile works by downloading files to your mobile device so they're different situations. I'd agree that it should potentially be possible though with a limited interface.

[@miguelbarrio]

My expectation is some offline functionality will be reinstated.

[@pablovi77]

@@misterwoody_ They’re not different, because your files are already downloaded in your server. They are there, is just a matter to make a application that can function offline.

[@willx9352]

They have - it is called Roon 1.8!

[@gregstevenson7401]

I work in software John and I totally understand the technical imperative behind the decision to move to a cloud solution and as a fortunate in Western Europe my offline time is at worst, minimal. That said, as a vendor you have two choices - either be transparent about your changes with your customers or try to do it in the background and deal with any fallout on the sidelines. It seems Roon have taken the latter approach, which is understandable but like anything that shouts “cover up” it gets more exposure. They took a decision and that decision now says “untrustworthy”. It will take a long time to recover that trust from customers whether they were impacted or not.

[@quicksilver9365]

Well Said. I just tried to post this on the Roon forums regarding the offline mode. "I just watched Darko’s video and yes he does address it in a fairly elegant way but… I’m sure this has been asked but here it goes. Why not have the development team add a “feature” that simply gives access to the local audio files in a “sandbox”. No artist bios, no like artists no fancy calls to multiple servers to request information about the audio tea data etc. Simple playing of the files at their bitrate. I know that would be sufficient for me. * I am not a dev only a network engineer so I have no idea who difficult this would be."

[@gregstevenson7401]

@@quicksilver9365 In and of itself this seems a perfectly logical answer and one that wouldn’t take too much work to design and implement. Sadly, that’s the easy part. What this means in real terms is a fork in the development code. Double the code base to support technically, double the test scenarios to cover in your release management and documentation. These things are far from trivial and are an expensive, no revenue overhead. I get it. For me, the problem is transparency - being open and honest is a scary proposition for many companies but if your customer base is as invested as we are - its a fantastic product that has little competition imho - the reputation has been diluted. @Roon - just be clear and honest and people will understand…

[@contact2001]

Sorry but this was actually the reason why I bought a lifetime subscription with Roon, I am very disappointed that they can’t implement offline local file access on my server when the internet is down. As others said it shouldn’t be rocket science to implement this. I kind of feel robbed, since Roon wasn’t a cheap Software to buy. I wish I continued with the subscription which I could have cancelled now….

[@Eraserhead51]

You can have both worlds. Internet On you have the full experience. Internet Off you have access to you local library with limited features. That seems simple enough to avoid this kind of conversation. I understand the moving forward in technologies and features, but you should be able to access Roon locally (with limited features) if you internet is down.

[@dividead100]

Danny from Roon is full of it, there's absolutely no reason as to why they could not do anything you said and also have local files play.

[@jamieirwin6333]

They could easily add a toggle for fail safe such that only local libraries play if internet connection is lost. This isn’t rocket science.

[@thegalileanlibrary]

Since they found a way to download the local files on your Roon ARC app, and play them while offline, they should also have found a way to play them locally via your Roon server.

[@kaadhome5821]

It sounds like laziness and wanting/hoping to capture more sub fees by hostage/Stockholm syndrome on Danny/Roons part. They say they need the cloud to do all these features meanwhile projects like Home Assistant and Mycroft/Rasspi are figuring out how to do way more complex things like AI voice assistants, locally on much inferior hardware than NUCs (like Rasberry Pis). Seems Roon is going to go the way of Plex (piss folks off and cause break off projects), and possibly, probably eventually Insteon, where one day it shuts down due to the crushing ongoing cost of cloud infrastructure and lack of enough revenue coming in due to lifetime subs and limited appeal to enough customers (especially now).

[@OriginalgEd]

I'm a Roon lifer with a generally stable internet connection but I do have the occasional drop-out and it certainly troubles me that I might be in the middle of a listening session (especially if I have friends over) and lose Roon completely if the internet going down. Of course I could just download some alternative music management software (like Plex) and use then in the unlikely even that I find myself in this situation but that's a hassle I shouldn't have to deal with. While we need to accept that Roon needs to phone home occasionally to verify the subscription (even for lifers) I definitely understand why many people (especially in regions with unreliable internet access) are angry about this. I understand why Roon want to leverage cloud-computing (and maybe AI) to deliver an even better discovery experience but I would have though that it should still be possible maintain some form of local search (isn't that how it worked originally?). Ultimately this is a business decision, not a technology problem.

[@batteries671]

1) for lifers, roon could provide an encrypted usb key to plug into your roon core that validates that you are a lifer and never have to phone home 2) even if they needed to go to more cloud based development to save costs of development, they could offer a the software for their cloud server just like they do with the core software, that way, for customers with the means to run an instance of their cloud server, those customers could run it all locally without internet, and it wouldn't affect roon's development costs. There is nothing magic about the cloud, it's just a computer somewhere else, there isn't any good reason they couldn't let you run a dedicated server in your own home

[@sveneschholz9319]

Hi Darko, just to comment on internet connectivity here in Germany, Frankfurt, main hub for Europe: I do have daily outages ranging from seconds to minutes. This does happen on a pretty fast 1000mbit cable connection with Vodafone as ISP. So, Roon 2.0 means that I have music drop outs with "Uh oh, something went wrong" happening on my playback. Solution: get out CDs... I am with Danny went it's about search etc. but simple playback should work. Full stop. Best Sven

[@yugen0o]

Lifetime Roon sub here. Soooo... Huge WTF... Why does ARC have an off-line mode, but they couldn't be bothered to include an off-line mode on Roon 2.0? This makes absolutely no sense and is incredibly tone deaf and customer-hostile... especially for those of us that don't live in dense urban centers.

[@wannesfey]

As a decades long IT proffesional: That whole ' you need to be online' is bullocks. Roon should always guarantee access to your local files. It should be part of their dna. Yes, it could demand some more development resources. But over time they will alienate their customerbase. Technology is always a choice, never a limitation. Here the wrong choice is made. It is the convenient choice. Wrong. Just put that cloudcode as a tier in your server.

[@ailurophile71]

Regarding inability to play local files without internet, I reject the choice Roon is proposing. Granted it's not exactly the same due to library size, but when the KZbin app on my iPad detects that there is no internet, I can easily play anything I've downloaded to the iPad. Well designed systems fail gracefully. Lack of internet is a failure that can and should be dealt with properly. No one is expecting full Roon functionality under those condiitons. But zero local playback is a joke and a failure of design. If I happen to be in the more inconvenient position of using my PC/laptop as a core then I can open any number of software GUIs that will let me bypass Roon and play network files. So why doesn't Roon offer something similar at a bare minimum? Surely a much lighter, less optimal local search/playback option could be included, without retarding development of future online features or whatever nonsense was claimed here.

[@WMalven]

LOL!!! I was just about to jump on the Roon wagon. Not any more. Here in Houston (hardly a backwater), we have almost daily outages running from a few seconds to half an hour or more. When all of your entertainment depends on that connection (and as a retired 70 year-old, that comprises most of the days amusements) those outages are a constant source of frustration, even though I have a large collection of films and music files on my home system and Audivana. I certainly don't need to further complicate my life with a "service" that no longer considers its customers' needs as high a priority as their technical advancement. No Roon for me. I think Roon just "jumped the shark" with this decision.

[@jonathannewman4357]

I don’t understand why they can’t differentiate between online and offline modes. Retain the search functions within Roon Core for ‘offline’ mode. If tidal and others can do this with dowloaded/‘local’ tracks why can’t Roon? It smacks of them cracking down on licensing issues and forcing end users to be online all the time. People have paid a significant amount of money on lifetime licences and suddenly it all changes. As always, a great video and thank you for taking the time to look into the issues raised!

[@petert9323]

Thank you, very useful to be made aware of the “off-line” limitations. As a new Roon convert I was about to do a lifetime subscription, however I will now sit back and have a think about things. Although it may be unusual for the internet to be down, even in a well-connected world stuff happens - be it a user local fibre cut, or Roon’s server side becoming unavailable (what happens when their servers come under a persistent DDoS attack). I think people would find it acceptable to have very limited functionality, but still the ability to play music, but totally unacceptable that it would completely stop working. Arguably when all online content has become unavailable, local music will be at its most appreciated. I struggle to believe that, if it was important to Roon the business, a modular approach couldn’t be made to work - its not like it currently can’t play stuff if there is missing meta data... Hopefully enough pushback from the community will get them to rethink things into a solution that caters for the not always connected world.

[@ruz5499]

A lot of people here thinking "the internet being down" is a local to themselves issue. The bigger issue is likely failures in the cloud provider that Roon uses, I'm sure they would be using one of the big 3. These outages have been severe and widespread in recent holiday seasons. I can only imagine the uproar if your music goes unavailable at a time of the year you are most likely to want to show it off to your friends and family.

[@davidhunternyc1]

I've had Roon since the begginning. As soon as Roon ARC came out, I downloaded it. It took me more than a year to set up !!! Truth be told, I'm not a gear head. I'm just an average guy. I kept giving up on it. What a headache. Well, today, after another 8 hours of trying, it's working properly. It's a wonder to behold. I'm amazed with the technology but it's not fun setting up.

[@TheDealer1228]

I'm not a Roon user, nor am I a software engineer, but I have a very hard time buying the defense the company had to kill the offline component in order to "advance" the program. To me, there seems no logical reason they couldn't have the program switch to a "lite" version when the connection is lost in order to maintain access to local files. For my money, my guess is they didn't want to invest the time and money into making this possibility a reality, took a shortcut, and are ultimately going to end up losing money because customers are going to cancel their subscriptions to the service. If you're going to take away previous features, you'd best reduce the cost of membership. If not, you're gonna lose business. Just my two cents.

[@PaulMcElligott]

I don’t see how “Roon continues to evolve” and “playing my local music” are mutually exclusive.

[@Casmael01]

Yeah it’s a pretty stupid move isn’t it

[@billyballbag3389]

Well, that's killed any desire of me purchasing roon.

[@blakeedmondson4889]

Internet access is needed to check licenses since cracked/pirated versions cause profit loss. An added bonus is that they can now collect data to add to their profits. I've been making efforts to use free open source software (FOSS) as much as possible rather than the commercial or closed source variants. I'm currently using a Pine64 with the NAS case (can install HDDs or SSDs) for my media server rather than Synology or something similar. I use an RPi, or any other computer, with a DAC (Allo or HiFiBerry) with LMS on one and Squeezelite on all of the others. Using duckdns and port forwarding, you can access your stored media from anywhere. So other than hardware, I haven't spent any money on licenses and don't have many of the limitations of their paid variants.

[@Waderunner626]

Had the internet down issue today. Our internet went down and had no access to the core whatsoever. It's a real shame. We used to be able to use Roon for several days when the internet went down during blizzards playing local files. This can happen frequently during the winter

[@jorgengerstel]

If Roon needs the cloud for Indexing/elastic search and similar services, they can also build a solution to cache these "cloud computation" results on the local server at your home, similar like a CDN does for website. So if your internet connection is down, then still the local cache can be used with the downside it is the older cached version. Once the internet connection is restored the the cloud can be used again and store next version of local cache at your home server etc etc. This way you have a hybrid setup which should satisfy most Roon users...

[@batteries671]

they could also offer a docker image for those customers that want to run the server software on premises

[@tgp-2]

Thanks for these Dear John videos, they're great! In your first Roon ARC video, you mentioned that you'd be setting aside your dual Roon/Plex server setup to go Roon-only with their dedicated Nucleus server. I hope you'll reconsider and find a way to maintain a separate server for Plex and other solutions (Squeezebox, etc). Plexamp continues to develop as a great option for both mobile and home audio streaming, and I'd love to see future updates from you on my favorite app! Plexamp on the Raspberry Pi is a recent addition that's improving all the time, and I hope Pi supply improves so you can make a video that folks without a Pi can act on :)

[@gregfd]

Roon is an expensive piece of software that was luxurious and appealing to me. I was wishing to save enough cash to buy it (upfront) at some point, just like a “piece of equipment”. It looks like the lifetime licence is now far less attractive with this latest modification. It’s not a product anymore, it’s a service. I’ll wait for Plex few years, it will be just as good for a fraction of the price

[@batteries671]

I was in the same boat, was saving up for it, but the whole point of it was to avoid a service. Having to always be connected to the service makes it a service.

[@cassio-eskelsen]

As a software developer for over 25 years, developing from embedded systems to distributed systems, I find this dichotomy absurd. There are several ways to create software that works locally with most features, leaving the most advanced to run in the cloud. The only reason anyone wants to keep files local is to not have a dependency on a service that is on the internet and can be turned off at any time. Not being able to listen to local music without internet makes Roon almost completely meaningless.

[@dougcampbell2814]

I appreciate your follow ups like this very much. Thank you for all of your reviews too. 🎵

[@stephenscharf6293]

John, for many wireless routers in the USA, you *cannot* go in to the router's setting panel and toggle on "port forwarding" or UPnP for Roon 2.0/ARC to work. For example, AT&T U-Verse Pace routers do not allow this. So for us, Roon 2.0/ARC is a total bust.

[@leafyleafyleaf]

You would need to put your current router into bridge mode so it just acts like a modem (its own wifi gets turned off), then feed the internet signal via wired Ethernet to a separate wireless router where you can set up port forwarding. It’s an extra cost and extra pain, but doable.

[@superhoops73]

This Dear John video is going to need a Dear John video.

[@robrosiebeenhakker2030]

Roon Arc certainly came in handy when my Gen.1 KEF LS50W didn't connect via WiFi last week. Did a hard reset on the speakers and still wouldn't connect. So, in the end I ended up using Roon Arc and it worked a treat. Got the speakers connected again via WiFi 5 days later but its good to know to have Arc as a "standby" at home.

[@gamerfinn3634]

The verbal gymnastics needed to explain Roon mirrors my own experience with the product. Difficult. Music should be fun. It’s pleasurable. Roon was a barrier. It was promptly removed. Keep it simple folks.

[@FastTechLimited]

Another reason some like myself are on 1.8 Legacy is 2.0 requires an OS my older MacMini can't run. So now I need new hardware to run new cloud features which shouldn't be dependent on my hardware!

[@kitdenerley]

Hmmm - as a techie myself I understand the logic of moving computation to the cloud but Roon ARC has an offline mode so it seems to me that they could implement something similar as a fallback for when the internet is unavailable - even if it was a dumbed-down or restricted version. Also your choices are more limited if you've bought a lifetime sub!

[@cheeky1664]

These new(ish) "response" videos are really, REALLY great. So much insight and fascinating to watch. Thanks John 😁😁😁

[@muddymike10]

Always informative - thank you John. And, happy to notice that your are currently enjoying music from "The Irresistible Force". That first release /extended Ep is a Winner!

[@michaellong9039]

We drove from north of Atlanta to Charleston, SC and then back via a very rural route for a long weekend. We listened to our Roon playlists the entire way without a hitch. Just amazing that we get listen to our playlists of ripped CD's and Qoboz streams in the car without any problems. Call me impressed.

[@miguelbarrio]

Danny explained in the Roon forum that there is still a basic local files search in the core - this has to be the case because you can have content that does not exist in any database, and it would obviously be untenable not to include that in the search results. I do understand that many features depend on cloud-based code, but a basic playback functionality should remain.

[@georgeballow7028]

John, Great video showing us both sides of the issue. Throughout I was thinking, just move to another software to play your library for the time being. Glad you suggested at the end. As my Roon is on an old cranky desktop, I am very often greeted with “cannot connect to Roon core…..” I just jump to mcontrolHD and in about 10 minutes Roon pops up ready to go.

[@dowster64]

I had to smile when you mentioned Squeezelite / squeezebox as a solution to being offline. It absolutely does still provide a music / album / track centric way of listening to your own music, especially with the right skin. I only got 'into' streaming just before Covid when my CD player started to fail. I got a second hand Graham Slee Bitzie and used your videos and others to set up a RPi4 with PiCorePlayer, (tried others but this was the least painful) built in Squeezebox and an external HD with my CD rips (EAC to flac - I'd done a few discs for my phones over the years). The bug bit and I subscribed to Tidal and Qobuz. The Bitzie was swapped for a Hugo2, a Dragonfly Red was bought, then a Cobalt, then finally a HiFI Rose 150B an Roon entered the mix. But Roon couldn't be set up by me to work across a subnet to my office in my garden, so the PcP stays in there, runs the Cobalt DAC into various pre-amps over the few years The LMS (Squeezebox) went on to a Truenas server jail with my rips on Samba share. This provides my music to my PcP, the Hifi Rose and Roon. Now I downloaded Roon Arc, but initially it wouldn't auto configure. However I was able to manually prot forward across 2 routers and it works!. I sympathise with anyone with wanting a non connected solution and that, if they can, try Squeezelite. Squeezelite X runs on windows, I use that to control my player (PcP) and the LMS is on the NAS. The big problem with all that is the blooming nomenclature - I had to go through the post and work out where I wrote Squeezelite and mean Squeezebox. It's really easy to forget that messing with routers, port forwarding, security, and setting up hardware means you are not only an audiophile, but still need to be a technophile in order to DIY. So Roon fills that gap fairly painlessly. Managing change - not so painlessly.

[@ecr80]

I live in Puerto Rico. And I was considering Roon but this issue has really turned me off. We are constantly without internet and power. Thanks for the update!

[@stephendixon8575]

Hey John, think you hit the nail on the head in that the crux of the issue is communication, in failing to be clear on what the changes mean. As a Sonos user since the early days I fell out of love with them because of their failure to be honest about their updates and future intentions, but I guess it was the lack of respect for customers behind some of those decisions which really got me. Roon came along (after seeing it on your channel) just at the right time, as Sonos fell out of favour. It also made me realise just what I’d been missing; 27k tracks on my NAS and unlimited streaming choices but yet no useful means of interaction with my music anymore, or inspiration on what to listen to next. Roon was all my dreams come true, costing only about the same as another Sonos player for a lifetime subscription - What’s not to love. Having spent hours on Roon Communities forum, it’s clear that Roon listens to its members but doesn’t attempt to please every ‘feature request’ (unlike Rose HiFi for example, which quickly became a mess), and I have huge respect for that approach. All that said, if you manage people’s expectations properly, you’ll have few complaints, but you’re right that longer term legacy support for a workable alternative to an internet dependent product has to be part of the solution 👍

[@SiavashTechDaD]

I think using a home NAS is much more reasonable that changing hard drives every year . You can buy a NAS server from Synology or Qnap or WD . It can be a mixture of SSD and Hard drives with long life for hard drive when you use NAS specific drives . The OS on the NAS servers usually monitor hard disk health and inform user if a drive is going to fail and using RAID like RAID 5 will make sure you never lose any data .

[@SiavashTechDaD]

In Synology products you can install Roon server on the NAS itself and you would not need a PC anymore .

[@SiavashTechDaD]

You can look at something like Synology Disk station 1522+ then you add five NAS hard drives and an nvme SSD for fast cach and you can set the drives in Raid 5. It can store all your music, movies, data and.... You can install roon and other music managing software on it. You can be sure you will never loose any data and incase of a hard drive failure, you just replace the failed drive without any other worries. Because of its powerful cpu it will be able to decode or recode any file on the fly. I don't work for any of these companies, I'm just a Nerd and an Audiophile. 😜😉

[@tomjory9894]

John, I agree with all you have said in your video. The change should have been more clearly articulated . However, Internet outages do happen and many users have made a significant investment in Roon Core hardware under the assumption that it is a local solution. I don’t see the change as a reason to jump ship, but it does make you consider running another service simultaneously.

[@timkolacny967]

There is zero technical reason that my local files and playlists can't be played offline other than lazy coding. The stated reasons are attempts to rationalize what they did after the fact. They should restore this functionality in an update ASAP.

[@lemonfocus]

Face it. Internet connection has become as important as water and electricity in your house. It's part of the infrastructure. No one would complain that roon needs electricity to operate.

[@vinguarinovg]

@@lemonfocus Basically for licensing..I don't need or use the internet to listen to my collection of FLAC files. J River Media Center has had online/offline functionality for years.

[@willx9352]

@@vinguarinovg Roon is more than a music player. If all you want is the ability to listen your collection of FLAC files, J River Media Center is more than adequate - and a lot cheaper as well!

[@batteries671]

​ @Andreas Kohl how does kaleidescape offer a smooth user experience for it's users without internet access?

[@batteries671]

@@willx9352 kaleidescape offers a smooth user experience for it's users without requiring internet access, this could absolutely be done

[@freddavidson73]

This kind of analysis is your strength, John. Nicely done 👍👍.

[@yyams]

I'm sure it's been said before but couldn't Roon revert to limited functionality when disconnected from the internet yet still move their development onwards the majority of the time when internet connection is active?

[@robbiedunn2953]

I love Roon and Roon ARC but I also have a Plex subscription ($129 lifetime) and JRiver media player software. For those instances where I don’t have an internet connection, I can use Plexamp or JRiver to play my 30TB of music stored on my NAS. It may not have the same user experience but I can still play my local music. .

[@markhyland1783]

So the solution would be to download ALL of your Roon Core ripped files to your phone (assuming your phone storage is large enough - NOT) and now that ARC has an OFFLINE mode, play them from there without an internet connection if you must. Great job Roon - it shows how much they are banking on a move into the personal audio and cloud space and moving away from the home audio connoisseur. The "maths" will say that more and more people will just buy a music server such as Innuos (and use Sense) or Aurender or Auralic etc that doesnt have (impose) these limitations, as opposed to buying a lifetime subscription to Roon.

[@PeterHebert]

Even if most of the computational power moves to the cloud, they easily could implement a local cache for info about local files, even if it's just the basic metadata.

[@batteries671]

they could also offer the cloud server as a docker image to technically minded customers who care. but yes, I agree, they could totally meet customers in the middle, but honestly seems like they are trying to get rid of local file customers

[@miguelbarrio]

What I have done is upgrade to Roon 2.0 and set up a local MinimServer server if I need to play local files - there are many clients that can play UPnP-served files (i use dCS Mosaic).

[@my_key]

I like supporting developers, don't get me wrong. But we as a community really need a solid open source music server/player that guaranties playback of our local files without being locked out of our own music, without anti-features and without vendor lock in. This is IMO not mutually exclusive with supporting a solid dev team. Maybe we have to do a group tender or something, like a sort of reverse crowdfunding?

[@wilson7596]

I have a had zero issues with ARC save for some port forwarding tweaks to start. As someone who has lots of hard drive space used for local music including my CDs and personal vinyl rips (and rarely uses streaming services), Roon has been amazing for organizing my music and artwork. I can now access all of that outside the house and had been hoping for it. I had to use Plex previously to do this, but had no interest in having to organize in 2 different spots. Thanks Roon

[@amdenis]

I have done cloud based and split architectural design and programming for major military contracting groups for decades, as well as a few of the well-known international media and content providers for over the past 19 years. As such, I know that whatever their cloud plans are (literally whatever), they can most definitely treat local continuity and security validation independently of their cloud delivery and how many concurrent on any given account. If their lead devs, CTO or CS say otherwise, it is only because of a lack of architectural options they have thought about. It would also increase their cloud DS efficiencies, while endearing them to their users.

[@frankbernharduebler]

While your explanation about cloud services and their benefits makes sense, I am not convinced by Roon’s statement that you can’t have both. It should be possible to offer an offline mode for local music, just like music apps on phones work with limited functionality on airplane mode.

[@sandybee01]

excellent explanation actually, very much appreciated. As a Room user, I can live with the 2.0 change. The onus of course will be for Roon to continue to evolve and improve to justify customer interest. And thats something I actually look forward to.

[@Politicianssuch]

Thanks for the work you do in providing great learning experiences and teachable moments. Outstanding!

[@markhumphries5191]

They just need to have the roon cores have the ability for a "roon basic" functionality, with caveats about metadata availability, search, data mining etc whilst offline. All cores have that now. If they go for cloud based processing then existing cores are massively overpowered and virtually redundant.

[@Dean_O.]

Please produce a video on how to revert to Roon 1.8. The process seems somewhat complicated.

[@GjbMcN]

I’m not a room user BUT I am a smart home user who’s seen the offline functionality debate for Apple, Amazon and Google going differently. Development is towards “local” not in the cloud functionality. As a database familiar ( I wouldn’t say knowledgeable) person surely they could allow “snapshots” that could allow the present state of local file’s metadata to be “frozen” and workable. This smacks of the Apple, Amazon and Google as media sellers where do you own or did you rent purchased digital content is still highly contentious ,untested and dependant on the goodwill of the corporations who often shutter services like Microsoft, Google etc for music sales.

[@willx9352]

It is called Roon 1.8 and is available now.

[@gameconsoletherapy4434]

Plex lets you stream in house without internet. You have to set it up while online first. But once you do it will let you stream without internet. Roon could probably do the same, maybe they will in the future.? I have been really happy with my Plex / Plexamp setup. I primarily listen on the go through my phone, yo ho the dongle life for me.

[@whitehatbob]

Love this type of frank topical video, and you do it very well. Nevertheless, be very skeptical about Roon’s feature-based explanation for the always-connected internet requirement, as a lot is happening behind the scenes. IMO, this is all about licensing and expanding ongoing subscription revenue, a scourge that is sweeping every product in every market. For example, licensing companies are likely trying to kill purchasing music via files because there is no ongoing revenue with downloaded files like there is with the subscription streaming model. IOW, if you own the files but have to have a subscription to play them, what’s the point of owning them? Roon likely knows this is coming, and they are complicit where they should be resisting it for the benefit of their customers. This issue will only get bigger and is not simply about poor corporate communication. This was a great first reaction video, calm and cogent, but dig deeper and keep your eyes open. Change is coming, and you’ll probably have stronger feelings about it as time passes. Audiophiles will likely need your voice to raise awareness about what’s really driving these changes as your own understanding increases.

[@brandonhall4429]

My Mac M1 is running Roon Core and Arc works fine when the laptop is asleep. The "Wake for Network Access" setting on the Mac is the key to making it work.

[@batterytestchannel-v4v]

Very thoughtful video as always. It does seem somewhat egregious that ability to access local data files should be hostage to an internet connection. As others have suggested, how hard would it be to have a stripped down local player which would also accumulate usage stat.s until the net comes back up? On e upon a time cars had spares that were the same as regular wheels. Then automakers switched to skinny spares that were less functional to save space. Now some just provide a repair kit that will hopefully get you to a garage. There has to be some way to tide you over in the event of an easily foreseeable and relatively common problem.

[@jasongibbons6836]

John, another fine video 👍🏼 just a small point it shouldn’t be forgotten that your home ripped files can be accessed in times of internet outage just not through Roon, they are still accessible and playable on your LAN using other client software

[@uchuyagi]

Yeah, Roon isn't being 100% real here. I write software for a living. And Danny is certainly correct in saying that these computationally heavy tasks are better handled in the cloud. I don't question his rationale there. But this is still poor software. More specifically, bad User Experience. In web development, there's something called Progressive Enhancement. Where your software is built so that any level of hardware capacity can still have a subset of the features based on what they can handle. This ensures everyone can have good UX, even if it isn't the same experience for all. Let the people use the app offline. Just let them know they will loose some features. Just like when I put my phone in airplane mode; I can still use most of it and I'm aware that the internet and Siri won't work. It'd be stupid if my photos won't open because I'm offline. The original commenter was right. They are abandoning a whole portion of their user base and calling it "advancements in tech". It's Apple and their "brave" excuse when removing the headphone jack. It's bad UX with a shiny wrapper.

[@kelvin000uk]

Agreed. My work involves, to lesser extent, apps development. I can see that machine-learning based search and content delivery would need to be based on cloud servers, but a fallback to a simple 'business continuity' mode is pretty basic, standard stuff. Especially when their app is already built for local, off-line use. Very little extra dev needed (I assume although I recognise I don't have full knowledge of the IT setup) to have a mode switch and a few extra GB required for the app. But I remember Roon 1.8 was a little bumpy with some not completely thought though UI changes. They got there in the end, I think. I expect we'll see similar update improvements over the next few months. But I do find Roon's attention to UX a little inconsistent. It does album library and associated facilities very well (even the best) but can be quite clunky about other things - playlists management, boxsets, compilations, custom file tags etc. I find I have to keep JRiver as a parallel app. I think this gets exacerbated when they roll out these big new feature updates.

[@uchuyagi]

You're right, they are not consistent in their experience. It seems they are trying to provide the same experience they do at home, on the go. And they don't know how to do it. When people listening to music on the train, gym, or work aren't thinking about reading through the album description or doing a little bit of discovering. I'm sure I'm generalizing a bit here, but most people pick a playlist, hit play, and go about their business. They can provided a great experience that is tailored to the on-the-go consumer, without the need to force them to do something to suit the companies needs. It's user hostile design.

[@amdenis]

Great video. Note that you can get a 4TB SSD starting at about $160.

[@hifihometheater]

Thanks for this, John. I can definitely see why some would be upset about this, especially those with Lifetime Subscriptions that counted on being able to use their local content without internet. The reason for that is irrelevant. I think we all expected to be able to do that when internet is down to some level.

[@tomvivian]

Wow! Was considering Roon but no longer.

[@jvandekant]

Funny coincidence is that my internet has been down during this whole weekend, since last Thursday actually. I did get data from the mobile provider, but cannot stream onto my local wifi network. Playing local files is the only option.

[@gsus3918]

As a software developer, these changes sound like BS. Thank you for covering it. Navidrone is sounding better all the time, $0 and it solves most of these problems.

[@panadolrr]

As software developer for more than 20 years, I can confirm this "explanations" are bulshit

[@MrGonzoid]

Hi John One of my minor problems with Roon that I believe has not been picked up on is the screen mirroring function. I have a 2021 model Samsung TV similar to The Frame in that it hooks up via a separate Samsung box and a single cable. Screen mirroring in Roon does work but instead of displaying the album art it defaults to displaying the main image with a small icon size album art picture in the bottom left corner of the screen. I cannot find any way to display the album art only unless of course I am missing something. I’m a photographer by profession and for me, many of the images associated with artists in Roon are either low quality in resolution or low quality aesthetically and often both. I’m aware this is probably a niche issue but I would have thought there would been an option just to display the album art and perhaps the track progress.

[@NeilLavitt]

Great follow up. I have had good success with PlexAmp running on an iPad and MacMini running into a DAC VIA USB and controlling it on another device. This plays bit perfect. Still, not of course as elegant as Roon. ARC takes this to the next level indeed. The offline issue still baffles me as it should be possible to cache most data to allow functionality offline. Sure, make radio and some searches inaccessible, but at least allow basic metadata searches and catalogue finds. The computational model makes sense, just not 100%. Plex is of course an option as a local Plex server does not require an internet connection function. It will work fine.

[@michaellong9039]

This is the very reason I still have a CD transport and a large library of actual CDs'. But one would think that you should be able to access these same ripped CD's on your local server when your Internet connection is down.

[@willx9352]

Of course you can. There are a multitude of products, some free, that will allow you to do this. Roon is so good at this - organising and integrating your own collection with that of streaming services and allowing you to play it on almost any streaming device.

[@balooo2863]

One more reason love Sonos is you can access your local library if the internet goes down. Library size is limited but you still have approx 35,000 songs to choose from if you max out the library allocated size. The more I research Roon the less I feel I want it, too expensive and convoluted for what it is.

[@bauxi11]

Thank you for your great content, really appreciate it. Here I also must comment something regarding the Roon functionality. I understand the necessity to bring it forward and to use all the tech available. If tech is available only online or on the own Roon servers, then OK. But to keep Roon usable at all when internet connection is down is a must for me, there is no discussion. At least a basic functionality also must be available without an internet connection. I am actually testing it, but this makes it easy for me to not buying it.I don't wanna buy Roon and then having the need to use another solution as well. I want one solution that really works for my music, that's why I am willing to pay money for a player software. I am not buying into a solution (for my home) that doesn't work at all, in case internet is down but wifi and networking is working. If I am looking for that I stay with Tidal only.

[@jikenj]

I relied on fubar 2000 in the past and I still have it just in case but I am enjoying the roon Arc also and my connection is pretty solid.

[@batteries671]

I think the main issue is not "what if my internet goes down" but more a matter of sovereignty, can I listen to my music without relying on a 3rd party. It's also relevant to people with remote vacation homes, boats, etc.

[@bhbacon]

Hey, John. Just wanted to commend your efforts on this. So often when there are issues with a new release of software people will approach it with one-sided anger or frustration without digging into the reasons for the changes. I agree with you, I feel there should be a legacy mode built in but the advancement of the software more important. Thanks.

[@MrRhearns]

This roon zero minutes as a software development choice is not a solution to grow its a unusual one! For example, you could offline your entire library to a player then move your core into the cloud and now we are in a situation where “ what do we need a roon core for?” Is that where roon is going, you upload your library and pay another monthly fee for storage because the computational power is now in the cloud? So after buying an life time licence I might have find an alternative local music storage system!!! Very strange business decision.

[@CarltonCrothers]

Roon’s response is not 100% truthful. They are wanting to transform into a a Software as a Service (SaaS) company. With modern database and cloud technologies, it is possible for even a SaaS company to deploy a solution that can seamlessly switch between cloud-based and local-based databases in the event of an internet connection loss. This concept is often referred to as "hybrid cloud" or "edge computing".

[@dhaosandy]

Glad I didn't buy the lifetime sub, because I require access to the local files regardless of internet connection and won't now renew my roon sub even though I love the interface.

[@audio_acoustic_engineering]

Excellent video and argument 👌🏽👏🏼👏🏼

[@vinguarinovg]

I’ve been a long time user of J River Media Center which has had remote access for years. Recently I’ve been testing newer options such as Volumio and wanted to try Roon. I was turned off Roon by the fact that I could not test it without giving them my credit card. This new news makes my selection much easier. I’ve run into situations where applications (Adobe) will not work without internet. Quite frustrating when you are in upper Maine and cannot work on your photo images. The same situation will happen with Roon Thank you for all the information you provide.

[@BrindleBrown]

Regarding the zero minutes guarantee, it’s all about value. From a technological point of view, there is zero doubt that Roon can provide both local basic search and playback features and also advanced cloud features. Whether or not they do is completely driven by whether or not they perceive it as worth the engineering effort. If Roon believes they can drop the legacy features without loosing the vast majority of their user base, then it is gone, because, from their perspective, they are making the most efficient use of their engineering resources. If enough of their user base communicates that zero minutes is not acceptable, Roon will reprioritize. Unfortunately, the thousands of users in small villages and towns throughout the world with almost non-existent connectivity have almost no voice in this kind of ruthless decision making process.

[@astroman269]

Very well said. It's not about being "able" to do it or not. It's about dedicating resources to Adress the problem or not in their new architecture / code.

[@sjyoung]

Wonder how the many manufacturers who have gone to the trouble of making their products compatible with Roon will react to this. If I remember correctly they don't have to pay fees to Roon, but there must still be some cost involved. Did Roon even consult them before making a change that removes existing functionality from the service?

[@electrosaurus]

So glad I never stumped for a lifetime license - I almost exclusively use it for stored content. I'll stop when this subscription runs out with zero regrets. I was blissfully unaware of this change until now (so thanks for that DA). Every time I dive back into the Roon "community" I'm reminded why I stay away. The attitude of the developers and so many of the forum members are - unsurprisingly I guess - as elitist as the worst of the audiophile community in general. Finally, speaking as a software developer, their justification is also 100% rubbish. It's all economics - a small development team lacks the skills to properly develop in-house so jumping on the cloud-compute train is the easy way out. I see an increasingly niche future for Roon.

[@mattwhite532]

Thank you for the vid John. It's disheartening to know products I've bought lifetime licenses for become useless when the internet goes down (Plex also relies on internet access to work). We're paying for convenience, but apparently not the convenience of being able to listen to music (using Roon) or watch over the air TV (using Plex) when the internet goes down. Surely, with all the advances they've made in tech, they could find a way to do both. I believe you mentioned Danny from Roon commented they couldn't imagine the advances made since Roon's founding in 2015. Therefore, why wouldn't future advances allow for the convenience of using Roon w/o internet access? I mean, if ARC can play offline content, why can't Roon core?

[@gaeliclands5064]

Perhaps Roon's business model has a component of monetizing the users local file play history and needs that constant connection to ensure that data flow continues? Thanks John for walking that fine line between consumer advocacy and product promotion. A great follow up video that has helped my decision making process.

[@demazy]

Simple: make a 2 part app. One part that is dependent of the cloud computational system while working when there's an internet connection and the other that get activated when there's no internet connection that is old fashion on site computational system. Actually, when you don't have internet access and just want to listen to your digital files, you don't need much bells and whistles. They could do it until 1.8. They could Just embed that code in the 2.0 that would kick in when there's no connection. Or create a legacy version downloadable app that they would keep up to date for off line listening that would about the info data base when there's internet connection available. It's 2022 now, it is coding and maintaining, it is possible to have both. They did a second app, why not a third one ?. They should include it to justify the hefty lifetime cost. It was as mentioned a core feature and a safety net for audiophile listeners and why it seemed to be a viable solution. I actually wanted to invest in Roon and was really close to pull the trigger with ARC and felt that this compony is going in the right direction.. It is kinda deal breaker really.

[@pberv6109]

Thx Darko. Besides the technical aspects, there is also that of the correct attitude. I mean, Roon should explain with every upgrade, what is not anymore accessible and why. And that should be based - also - on costumer-oriented market survey, besides decent communication. It is a big mistake if you don’t. Then for many/some, in the end, this is a downgrade.

[@Phil_f8andbethere]

John Please do a video on everything you wanted to know about Plex but were too afraid to ask.

[@terryife8823]

Great video and very informed John, thanks

[@pathworks]

I like the update. Now, I'm more likely to create roon playlists of my local content, download, and take it on the road. Can't wait for roon Arc on Android auto.

[@jameskennedy5795]

What happens in the ARC App when internet is down? Isn’t this one of the selling points - that the ARC App has offline listening? How is it possible for the new ARC App to support offline listening (even of Qobuz/Tidal track?? but no offline listening for existing Core-attached local files? (PS, how are offline ‘plays’ in the ARC App tracked and retroactively passed back to calculate artist royalties?)

[@DeanVRS20VT]

You can only download local files in ARC. As John said, and as Roon have detailed on their forums.

[@ksbav8r]

Was actually looking at moving from LMS to Roon in the near future, but without an offline mode I absolutely will not be doing that. The idea that their software HAS to be in the cloud is absurd, considering the system requirements of Roon core. I hope they rethink this.

[@PJC53N6W]

I run both LMS and Roon. Every time I consider just having Roon I find reasons I can't do that. The cloud connectivity requirement now has me asking do I really need Roon at all.

[@David-qf9tw]

the reason roon requires you to have an internet connection to use your local files is to avoid using pirated copies of its program

[@ccapri9357]

Yes, that must be the real reason. That and maybe they want to have the information of what you listen to in real time, all the time. There is no reason I can think of why the program can't go into a "local search mode" if you don't have an internet connection.

[@willx9352]

@@ccapri9357 I am horrified - someone might know that today, I listened to Mahler Symphony No 1 followed by Mozart Violin Sonatas followed by Suppe Eighty Days. I am sure the CIA, KGB and MI5 are eagerly waiting for this information. Listening to the Suppe will surely prompt an investigation! My music search history is even more suspect. It could be that Roon could this information to better tailor my own listening experience.

[@pr4efectus]

All well explained. Thanks John!

[@merrillaldrich9170]

I think you did a great job explaining this technical fork in the road. Roon's communication might have been lacking, but I work in tech and I can endorse the fact the underlying problem is real. People are used to using smartphones at this point, and the "magic" that phones deliver has to do with processing on a much more powerful server. Think of Google Maps computing directions - doing that activity on the phone's processor would be absurd. It's natural that they will expect powerful features like that across all software. On the other hand, it really doesn't seem like it would be a big technical problem to structure the code to deliver local music in a limited way, on a LAN without Internet. Anyway, mainly I wanted to say 👍nice job accurately explaining a thorny problem to a "lay" audience. As ever :-D

[@markulrich3016]

Google Maps is a good example of using the cloud to enhance capabilities of a mapping service while still providing offline support for the basic mapping and routing functions. Computing directions is not going to stress a phone's processor, but an offline phone cannot tell you how busy alternate routes are or if your destination is currently busy.

[@imaxximus]

I completely enjoy your channel. Great insights and taste. Meanwhile I can’t get my Roon library to accept more than 200k songs.

[@taliosnz]

If search is in the cloud - does that mean they're keeping/tracking all your local music in the cloud? That's a larger change regarding privacy as well…