Why the Fenders in the Helix Sound WRONG

[@callaway5148]

Cutest video ever, John! I love how you didn't scold your girl for walking in, but just accepted it and embraced it. Beautiful!

[@JosePineda-jn8jk]

Dude if he scolded his kid for just waking in that would be wild. 😂

[@antipsychosoup6709]

I guess I’m in the unfortunate fortunate position of never having owned or played thru most of the amps that are modeled in the Helix, so I have no reference point other than my ears and what sounds good to them. I couldn’t be happier with my HX Stomp XL and the presets I have dialed in. I’m still always tweaking them, just because I’ve never been a set-it-and-forget-it type of gear owner. Tone is a journey, and I’ve never had more fun with the journey than I have since I got the Stomp, and your videos have made it even more fun! Thanks, John!!

[@davidmeatty5922]

Do people actually pay heed to the numbers? My process is just to slide things around until they sound good to me. Maybe that's why I never experienced this problem.

[@intenzityd3181]

Yeah I've always treated modellers as their own things and dialled them in by ear rather than copying real amp settings, I never understood that. Especially since microphone sims colour the sound very far from the sound of the real amp in the room.

[@Shekius]

El alivianado

[@AaronNGBnTech]

​@@Shekiussaludos hermano, he aprendido mucho sobre modeladores con tus videos

[@johanneschristopherstahle3395]

Sometimes setting that are known to work on the real thing can be a great starting point. But dialing in should always be done with your ears. 🎉

[@jacksonrepetskimusic]

Same haha. I don't pay attention to numbers whether its an amp, pedal, or a modeler. Its better to set it with your ears, rather than getting your eyes involved (at least for my brain lol).

[@Semach]

As a father of 2 little girls. I appreciate you embracing the chaos they bring. I don't like it when people pretend that they're not in your life every minute of the day.

[@cmonsterz]

Ah Jonny lad, quite the subject you’ve initiated discussion on! I think that the Fender models are very well done and this video does a great job of helping people understand how to dial things in. Part of what I do is run the amp level high, but back the guitar volume down halfway. I slowly increase the guitar volume till I find the proverbial sweet spot. That Core Silver Sky has touched you, hasn’t it? Once I got my core, things have never been the same!

[@nathanwhitneymusic]

You"re a freaking good Dad. Respect.

[@loopie007]

I am one of those that are disappointed by the DR on the Helix. L6 has lots of amps, so I know they can replicate amps successfully. For me, the DR has no output volume unless I really crank it. The Helix has adjustments that the DR doesn't have. I should be able to select DR and get a sound that is very close to a DR. I should never have to adjust the drive as it's fixed by the amp. If you want an amp drive, that's ok, but I want DR clean sound. I wish L6 would revisit this amp and deliver something that's much closer to a stock DR. Having multiple gain blocks to raise the volume shows something is wrong.

[@mainstreetmusic4665]

Yup exactly.....................

[@pearsonart]

Another great video. Have been adjusting mine by ear. It’s been said but try pushing the mids - 6.6-8.8. Blackfaced amps have more midrange and tweeds have even more! Drop the bass too - 1.1 - 2:2. Treble halfway - 5.5 to full. Also, try bringing some presence in - very low 1.1 or so. Low negative feedback mods bring in more presence. Finally, spend some time with mics and distance / angle. If you use dual cab, pull one way back.

[@kennvillegas2014]

Not that anyone is asking me, this ain't my channel. However I find that since I am playing Jazz generally in minimalist mode, just like I used to on my silverface Twin Reverb. And remember that the tone knobs are -Subrtactive. They reduce sonic frequencies - - My opinion is this. DON"T go for edge of breakup. Get your solid clean tone and THEN add your (unnecessary) 'Edge-of-Breakup' and your efforts as desired

[@ollegrane4654]

Thanks a million! This really made a difference to my clean jazz presets, I got the right kind of woolly bottom end and chime on top - and somehow it takes drive pedals better too, in my opinion. Happy family! ❤

[@Nineset]

You're a lovely Dad. Keep up the awesome Helix vids dude.

[@AlecBourneMidiMadScientist]

Cutest kid going, what a star ⭐. I was noticing this yesterday messing with the Fender mustang micro plus, everything is offset a bit, they represent it with rotary knobs on their app and include the percentage floating over it. No big deal really if you just dial in listening instead. Knobs vs sliders on screen you can clearly fit in a lot more with sliders in the same screen realestate. Best practice is to use your ears no?

[@shlee0202]

Not sure, if this was mentioned in the video: with Fender blackface amps that don't have a mid knob such as PR and DR, you should set them to 6.8 on Helix. That's how they are permanently set on those amps.

[@dimerocks123]

Really? I read (I believe on some sort of L6 blog, I can try to find a link) that L6 modeled all amps without a mid knob on the physical amp to 5.0 on the models. And with presence, it's 0.

[@johanneschristopherstahle3395]

On most modelers it should be 5. But I guess 6.8 is what you would have to set a usual tone knob to.

[@dimerocks123]

My comments are not showing up so let's try it this way.

[@dimerocks123]

@shlee0202 So I found the article I was referencing. Scroll down to the part on the '64 Dlx Reverb though, and within just the part about that amp it says both things: "the tone controls are exactly like that of a twin reverb except the 10k linear midrange knob is replaced with a fixed 6.8k resistor. If you want to match the model to the actual amp, set the model between 6.1 and 6.8 (values drift in the real amps). The idea, though, was to make the midrange knob on the deluxe behave like the midrange knob on other black-face fender circuits that have a midrange control" Anddddd... "The Deluxe Reverb itself has only Bass and Treble controls, leaving us, once again, with the prospect of a couple knobs with nothing to say for themselves. But fear not; in this case, we've set up the model's Middle knob so you can add some post-Amp Model Midrange contouring for a little more flexibility, while Presence adds, well, Presence. Once again, set the Middle knob to its "neutral" 12 o'clock position and the Presence knob to 0 for the classic Deluxe sound." So I'm not sure what the actual answer is 🤷 line6.com/support/topic/19961-helix-amp-model-gallery-real-controls-vs-invented/

[@jarushin]

Btw, why should you spend a block to boost volume instead of boosting at the end of the chain? In Helix Native you could boost the output in the "Host" block. Seems like this might work with a dual amp preset at least. Dial channel volume down for the not-fender-amp.

[@Cadet44642]

Enjoy the time they grow up so fast. I love seeing people kids in videos. We are all real people who just love music. Keep doing your thing dude.

[@SuperBatiskaf]

You can check few different vintage deluxes - each one will sound different. The problem related with the tone circuite of the black pannel. The volume itself also acts as mid control, more volume makes more mid.

[@samizdat113]

Stop dialing in tone with your eyes

[@whatmusiciwant]

Something I have learned from a bunch of research, and why I have decided to change my entire rig around, is the frfr conversation. Yes, you can run these amp modelers through a poweramp into a cabinet, the issue is, you are losing a big percentage of functionality of the modeler, that you paid for. Essentially you are stuck with 1 cabinet sound, even though you could have the choice between so many different IR's. On top of that, frfr (full rage flat response) is going to give you the most accurate representation of everything the amp modeler does, amp head algorithms, IR's, mic placement, you name it. I just bough the Fender FR-10 and the Tonemaster Pro and it's hands down the best thing I have ever done. At the end of the day it's up to you, of course. For me I thought if I am going to spend 1500 dollars on an amp modeler, I want to use it to it's full potential. You can't do that with a normal guitar amp/cab.

[@writewheel]

A thoughtful response. How and why did you decide between the FR-10 and FR-12?

[@whatmusiciwant]

@@writewheel Every single thing I read said 2 things. 1. This is by far the best FRFR I have ever owned, followed by a list of the most popular and expensive FRFR's. 2. They also said "You will be perfectly happy with 10, don't get the 12" Also, it was cheaper and I don't need much.

[@writewheel]

@@whatmusiciwant Thanks for your response, I've been on the fence. But next question...did you play both? I'm hoping to do that.

[@whatmusiciwant]

@@writewheel well, was supposed to be here but FedEx kind of sucks. So, it won't be till Monday. I will let you know though

[@writewheel]

@@whatmusiciwant thanks!

[@foxmeisteruk]

I think there's a further nuance to this - as I understand it, Fractal virtual "pots" are "ideal" and represent the precise specification of the pots in question, whereas when Ben Adrian et al at Line 6 model an amp, they measure the actual pots on the reference amp - which can vary considerably from amp to amp because anecdotally these can be out-of-spec (by +/- 20% according to Cliff @ Fractal on the Fractal Audio Wiki). Neither approach is correct, or "better", but it just goes to show that you need to dial in your tones by ear, not by numbers.

[@redkurn]

@John Nathan Cordy it would be awesome if you could tackle the pre amp issue. I’ve been told some are -24dB just to balance them out. That’s a lot of gain blocks that could be effects… granted the mandarin rocker wouldn’t need a lot of effects for example, but it doesn’t sound right boosted +24dB and so I gave up on 4 cable method.

[@brianwall8834]

Always amazed by your tone. Loving this video about Fender tone, something that I have been trying to get right and struggling sadly. You have mentioned the better fender tone preset but whilst I have looked on your site I am struggling to find this. Is it available and where will I find it? Much appreciated, keep up the excellent work.

[@angrybuzzy]

She left a bro hanging for that high five! hahaha

[@cyrilcrn]

Very helpful thanks JC. They're definitely much quieter than the Marshall type amps

[@bobprince1539]

Lovely little girl. So miss that. Best years of my life.. Enjoy, John. Excellent video. I had a Deluxe Reverb and Twin for many many years. I love clean tones and, “Yes”: it’s lacking in a my modelers. Just not as crisp and clear. This makes sense. Soon as I’m home I’ll give it a go. Thanks!

[@dscataglini]

Ok, incredibly entertaining to see you interacting with your daughter, adorable, and also you trying to pronounce "Shark" ;)

[@sjsphotog]

JNC you could also go to the OUTPUT block and add some +db to boost the lower volume setup. Wow you daughter is getting big fast (I've been away a long time as well). Cheers

[@jobposthuma4068]

Commodores ;)…lovely song!

[@Timtime67]

Awesome John much respect to you dad!

[@tims6824]

Gosh your daughter is adorable!

[@michaelschneider7590]

I’m really enjoying so many days of your playing the Silver Sky!

[@andybimson-sp2fx]

Never actually worried about matching “real” settings, I just go with my ears. Although this may explain why I like the Fender models far more than real amps. *high five* (couldn’t have you left hanging)

[@picksalot1]

If you have the basic tone right, but the volume is too low, you can simply go to the "Output Node" at the end of the Signal Chain, and boost the volume there. Jason Sadites has a recent video called "The Helix Parameter Nobody Talks About!" that addresses the different Blocks where the "level" can be changed and the consequences.

[@acousticglue]

why not raise level some of the cab? I generally do this on IRs, not huge gains but 1-3db

[@picksalot1]

@@acousticglue You can increase the volume level at the Output Node up to 20 dB, if needed! In my tests, adding 1-3 dB increased thickness, crunch, and smoothes the high end in a pleasant way on some Presets. Where you increase the level in the signal chain has its own effect, and increasing at the very end is worth exploring. 😎

[@localpm]

Superb Video.What a Great Sound and Great Playing as always.👌

[@Chibi_Bendrix]

Dude your kid is a sweetheart!

[@limpeacock573]

Great video! Thanks John.

[@agharta42]

My favorite helix amp is the Mail Order Twin which I think is a Silvertone but it sounds great

[@marcodado7473]

It is a very old story, most people say modeller are now as good as the real amps and I would say yes, if you play with medium gain and up, cleans and edge of break up is where you really test a unit. IMO we are not there yet .

[@Skyne_E_Vader]

Never change your bedroom set up. It makes this channel more personal.

[@music2me23]

Bingo! Thanks for this knowledge.

[@gtrburn]

I could never get a good sound out of the Twin until I stumbled across a mesa 4x12 IR - it provides the fullness and tight bottom end. The Helix cabs are way too bright, and the adjustment to correct the shrill highs or flubby lows never seem to find a good middle.

[@gtrburn]

Btw your echo is amazing - maybe I missed the video on that?

[@10sassafras]

Clean sounds are hard to copy. I’m not surprised modellers struggle. Clipping hides a lot of what makes sounds distinctive.

[@rmp5s]

"...that today's?" "Hopefully." 🤣🤣🤣

[@peterhall4852]

I think the problem now is, people are modelling algorithms of other algorithms. I have a bassman and have played older bassman and they never sound the same. As already mentioned, manufacture tolerances were different, and,like guitars, you just need to embrace the differences (flaws)-it part of the magic.

[@GrahamSatterwhite]

Hey man - how do I get the level monitors to show up in Hx edit??

[@Sagerydian]

If the modeled amp sounds crappy cause I turned the gain to 5 instead of 4,4 then there is a problem with the amp model.

[@RandomVideoGuy02]

Despite the fact they’re keeping the interface consistent, they should change the values to actually model the real amp imo. If they want to keep their model with extra controls and 0-10 sliders, they should just create an additional DR “Classic” model that only has the real parameters (no mids, no presence) and 1-10 sliders to accurately model the proper amplifier.

[@tommywallberg]

I believe TMP + Fender FR 10-12 is closer to an analog set than other modelers and easier to use like an apple iPhone 🧐

[@uktmaxx]

i've always thought that the Helix edit should have rotary style controls

[@PascalM-ld9xn]

PodFarm looks far better 😉

[@Michel-r6m]

How on do you hang your toiletpaper? Front flapping or wall? John, it is a joke.

[@Rich-NH]

No modeler gets Fender exactly right, though UA’s Dream pedal comes closest imo. It’s hard to recreate that BF vibe. A fender amp is its own thing, and the subtleties don’t always pass through. Just buy a Princeton RI and enjoy it for what it is 😁😎

[@Filhelm]

My understanding is that Ch Vol is a pure volume dial that does nothing more to the sound of the amp block . Crank it!

[@RandomVideoGuy02]

Correct, channel volume is purely the output level. The Master Volume emulates actually turning up the amp’s volume pot, leading to further tone shaping from power tube compression and distortion. Both will change your actual output level, but Master will change your tone, whereas Ch Vol changes only output with no effect to your tone.

[@DaveSheremata]

I really appreciate this video - totally makes sense. However, the method is too complicated when trying to apply it to multiple amps, IMHO. A couple of decades ago, after years of frustration with my Boogie Mark IV, I broke down and finally read the manual. ;) Since then, used the Mark series technique to tweak settings in everything every amp and modeled; i.e., dial by ear, not by eye. Whatever works!

[@CameraLaw]

On my Fender George Benson Hot Rod Deluxe, the volume knob, set at 2, is truthfully 0. No sound until 2.2, I’d estimate. And around 2.7, my neighbors would probably call the cops. Not sure how to figure that weird curve into a modeler. Love your daughter. Get her a channel’

[@thisgoestoeleven]

I think a big thing that's missing from the modeling conversation in general is the fact that in the 50s and 60s Fender in particular had much wider tolerances in their components, I think in a recent Five Watt World video he said up to ±20%, so any given Fender is going to behave differently at different knob settings than the one specific Twin or Princeton or whatever that is being modeled in the Helix. I mainly use my Helix for musical theater applications. Unless it's a heavy rock show, I tend to stick with clean "pedal platform" amp models in the Helix, usually a Deluxe or a Twin Reverb, and then just turn knobs til it sounds good, rather than worry about what slider settings are "supposed" to correspond to knob settings on a hypothetical vintage black panel Fender I'll never be able to afford to be in the same room as ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[@ggus8512]

A modeler is exactly as the name says. As a hamburger made from processed vegetables. To add to this, I would like to say that one could get many really great sounds from a modeler. Just not the exact sounds or response of an analog guitar amplifier.

[@howheels]

Appreciating my Revlaver 5 plugins faithfully reproducing all of the knobs of every amp!

[@basiltiffani8850]

Was hoping cordy was going to drink from that bottle.

[@gazzabiker8540]

Do the Fender models sound bad then? I thought they all sounded pretty amazing??

[@ctsguitar]

My issue with the Fender amps in the Helix is that they are too dry! I understand that Line 6 didn’t model effects on other amps, but c’mon, the reverb is such a huge part of the sound of these amps and I think it should have been modelled.

[@SundaySolos]

So, add some spring reverb then. My Princeton Reverb amp is pretty dry until I turn the reverb dial past zero.

[@ctsguitar]

@@SundaySolos True, but Fender amps have a unique spring reverb character which is very much a part of the sound. The general Helix spring reverb block is not the authentic sound of these amps.

[@SundaySolos]

@@ctsguitar Agreed! I use my Helix mainly for home practice through headphones and recording into Logic. When I gig, I use a real amp (Princeton or my Boogie) and my Helix for delay and modulation effects, the reverb is coming from my amps spring tank. The Helix amp models sound good to me, but I still far prefer my tube amps, especially when I am able to turn them up loud!

[@ctsguitar]

@@SundaySolos Agree 100%. I much prefer using tube amps: sound, feel, simplicity. I’ve had great success using my Helix as an all-in-one effects pedal board going into a tube amp as well as for practice with headphones as you mention. I’ve decided to create one last Helix preset to give away on my channel and then I’m selling my Helix.

[@robrobbins4906]

I don't think I ever worry about what number a dial is on. Do people do that?

[@RandomVideoGuy02]

Absolutely, if you have a Deluxe Reverb with settings you adore, but don’t want the weight of a real amp at gigs, it would be simple just to dial in your sweet spot on the Helix, which is meant to have a very similar sound at the same settings. The obvious overall answer is to just use your ear to fine tune, but I can imagine it would be rather frustrating to plug the numbers in and realize it really doesn’t sound like what you’re expecting. Even though the Helix is very capable of sounding similar, the fact that the numbers don’t line up makes things unnecessarily complicated.

[@robrobbins4906]

@@RandomVideoGuy02 Personally, I wouldn't trust 2 different Deluxe Reverbs to sound exactly the same with the exact same settings. Almost all modelers will set up the tone controls in a normal fashion, even if the original amps have odd controls. Some amp models might even have a mid-control even if the original amp didn't. Never trust a small imprint on a plastic knob to tell you where the setting is.

[@bluwng]

Wooden salad fork the kind a grandma use to hang on the walll….yeah ..that’s the PRS headstock. That doesn’t belong on a strat same for bird beak Suhr.

[@martymay9723]

With the arrival of your beautiful daughter, I've noted that you don't have any guitars in the background now! Why is that?

[@VincentPeer]

If I wasn’t already subbed, I would have when you welcomed your daughter in.

[@hartlee1160]

I set all my channel volumes real low so can turn up the amps that are quiet.

[@cohnjordy]

Didn't expect this video to make me want a daughter! 😭

[@uwedasler425]

Was a bit astonished about the title... While I am mainly using the Tonex and Kemper nowadays, I always considered the Fender amps (with the exception of the Twin, which is garbage) the absolute stars among the Helix models impersonating "real" amps. The Deluxe Reverb, the Princeton, the Tweed Deluxe, and the newish Bassman can, using the right settings and eventually IRs, absolutely rival captures / tone models. They are for sure more realistic, dynamic, and touch sensitive than anything in the Axe-FX III. I always solve the volume issue by leveling all presets (including those that use models in the Tonex or Kemper) using either the output block or a high/low-pass eq's level at the end of the signal chain. Since these levels are not having any influence on the sound at all (just our perception of it, which is just how our ears work), this works all the time.

[@philf4086]

"It goes to 11".

[@PascalM-ld9xn]

Because it's sounds better in the older AmpFarm and PodFarm 2.5 😂

[@martymay9723]

If you are going to survive in your household, you are going to have to get your daughter hooked on pedals, amps and guitars quickly!

[@mickelemineo6397]

Sorry mate, your interaction with your kid is way more interesting than twisting knobs! Hahahaha

[@jacobquinton9525]

Bro just fucking turn it up

[@jordanprysmiki5361]

She is so sweet man. enjoy that!

[@joemiller9856]

Elody! 😂

[@Newnodrogbob]

It turns out there’s a downside to models that are accurate to the originals…

[@vox1962]

The stock sounds just don’t sound anything like the real amps, this is across all models. Not to mention that the interface is overly complex, non -intuitive, and not inviting at all. Why do I have to spend 15 mins tweaking when I can just plug into my Deluxe and have a usable sound in under 30 seconds; it makes no sense

[@Andreas_Straub]

You do have to tweak just once. Then it works as easy and also faster than the real amp.

[@nuendo2496]

That PRS is terrible….

[@PuRe_AdDicT]

Precisely why I moved away from Helix, all the updates they put out and this seemed ignored

[@IYF_Productions_SL]

Why the fenders sound wrong? People are lazy and want numbers when they have to spend time setting it up and playing into the gear. Everyone wants a quick fix and there's not one on Helix. I have one and it's very complicated if you want to get a good sound you're happy with. It's treated like a guitar pedal when it's so much more. Treat it like a pedal = sounds like shit. Just sayin.

[@Francis23777]

Fender Amps on Helix are great with York Audio Cabs Factory sound dull and lifeless

[@GrzegorzSadowski-q7n]

Yes york audio Wow for me best ir

[@Andreas_Straub]

Tried it and liked it a LOT!

[@yuudee3132]

闺女很可爱

[@BrunodeSouzaLino]

Ah yes, the endless drivel of KZbin guitarrist tone-chasing.

[@danyeo]

Next video. “ we need to talk about how great the Fenders are in the Helix”

[@brin57]

Too much faffing around. Makes the Express user interface a clear winner compared to this !

[@jimbaxter8488]

Everything in the Helix sounds wrong.