Tesla Powerwall 2 was it worth it - 2 years on in the UK in Dec 2020.

[@MrAryindia]

This panel can put out close to 100 watts kzbin.infoUgkxOqI2yqX0XVrhR2BMJciTWrHJpG8FhJyg when positioned in the appropriate southernly direction, tilted to the optimal angle for your latitude/date, and connected to a higher capacity device than a 500. The built in kickstand angle is a fixed at 50 degrees. Up to 20% more power can be output by selecting the actual date and latitude optimal angle.The 500 will only input 3.5A maximum at 18 volts for 63 watts. Some of the excess power from the panel can be fed into a USB battery bank, charged directly from the panel while also charging a 500. This will allow you to harvest as much as 63 + 15 = 78 watts.If this panel is used to charge a larger device, such as the power station, then its full output potential can be realized.

[@johntisbury]

Thank you

[@matthewround7836]

Great video John. Enjoyed watching. However with the cost benefits quoted, even if the Powerwall lasts much longer than the 10 year guarantee your looking at 25+ years to pay back. That said, with energy prices having soared in recent months to 25p+ per kWh this comes down somewhat. Even so, I think Tesla need to significantly reduce the price point of this system to ensure its financially beneficial in the long run.

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching Matthew. Payback will depend on how you use your Powerwall and the import/export approach you take. As you point out the savings will only be right at the time of filming with electricity prices doubling, and most likely going up again in October in the second Price Cap review by OFGEM the return on investment will be sooner.

[@carlosoruna7174]

25 year payback is not worth it. And the issues of disposing and replacing the battery.

[@johntisbury]

Batteries are being 100% of raw material recycled. Payback period is just a forecast it’s likely to be much sooner. However, everyday I get benefit from it and reduce my reliance on the grid.

[@carlosoruna7174]

@@johntisbury payback is actual numbers. I figure it at 35 years. Ya all elements are organic. Some more toxic than others

[@johntisbury]

All the elements are naturally occurring and 100% recyclable. Unlike the alternative fossil fuels that are burn once.

[@just1boronut]

A really informative video, I think I grasped most of it, however the one question I would ask is.. How much money are you saving by using solar, combined with electric cars ? With the current fuel crisis, this reason alone would be a major factor in deciding on installing or not. Is money saved on vehicle fuel included in your figures, or is that just another bonus.?

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching. I'm working on an updated version of this video as I didn't include some savings, e.g. the electric cars as you pointed out. With the current electricity and fuel prices we are seeing even larger savings than expected or forecast. The original video was purely about the powerwall battery and how it have performed. The updated video will cover all components in our setup and overall savings.

[@johnd4273]

Great deal of information John. With the cost of batteries coming down and electricity prices ever increasing these are additional variables which over a 10 year period would needed to be considered if and when someone was looking at installing the TeslaPowerwall. The killer are the winter months for my solar PV from October - February. This October and November being the worst since I had them installed since 2002. Keep the interesting video's coming.

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching. Agreed in the longer term home storage battery looks like a better financial proposition. Like most technology Moores Law comes into play. The Winter months can certainly be make or break months for solar, so unpredictable.

[@johntisbury]

How did I miss that! Thanks to @bonbon who pointed this out. @15:04 should have been times 24 months, not 48! This means the saving is £36.78 per month. So £57 - £36.78 = £20.22 per month for the cost of the Powerwall! Even better value! I have not included the cost of the solar installation for 2 reasons. First, the 2011 4kW solar install had paid for itself with FiT payments by Dec 2018, the same month the battery was installed. Secondly, the video was about the Tesla Powerwall 2 battery and was it worth it. Whilst it's part of an overall system, it was this component I was concentrating on.

[@markwright196]

lol thats 20 more for your energy.... lol I think it would sound more reasonable if you said "I am happy to pay a extra 20 a month to have all of that 30% be green energy" .

[@antoinekurukchi283]

Oh nice. I recon with agile + if electricity prices increases + green factor + convenience = it's going to be worth it in the end with hopefully neutral cost/small profit.

[@johntisbury]

Totally, it’s not all about financial payback!

[@chrissowerby69]

Battery production is not green; it takes a lot of energy to produce. Best way to save energy, if you want to be green is to keep your old car running so that a new one doesn't have to be manufactured.

[@antoinekurukchi283]

@@chrissowerby69 agree but there does come a point where the other resources (time and financial viability) make it prohibitive. At that point moving away from fossil fuels makes sense to a lot of people.

[@MrCrazyplayer]

This is a carefully crafted video that has lots of information for anyone who is considering a similar setup! Thank you John! I love all your videos!

[@johntisbury]

Thank you for saying that, it means a lot as for me these videos take a long time to prep, record and edit. Thanks for watching.

[@gio4447]

@@johntisbury Hi John, after following your experience I would like to install 18/20 kw of solar panels and 2 powerwalls 2 of tesla, so 27kw total, do you think I could totally disconnect from the network? Knowing that I have an average daily consumption of 13-15kw? I live in central Italy, I would like your opinion .... Thanks bye

[@johntisbury]

@@gio4447 hi Gil thanks for watching. I would suspect that for the majority of the time you would not be needing any grid pull. The key thing will be what the annual solar generation pattern is like year round. You may struggle in the winter months to generate enough from the solar to top up the batteries and run the house. However, that said you'd not be pulling too much from the grid I suspect.

[@fontane007]

Great video and very interesting though I have to say it doesn’t blow my hair back on wanting to go self sufficient. For me I want a way to be much closer to 100% self sufficient, so it seems costs for solar panels and batteries need to come down much more before we really start to get a big take up of these green energies!

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching Wayne. Yes price point is a stumbling block for many, prices are coming down, plus the recent Spring Statement of 0% VAT will be an incentive.

[@campbellmorrison8540]

Forget the economics, that changes, reducing your dependence is the most important in my opinion. When it all craps out will you have something to cover your arse, yes it looks like you will

[@johntisbury]

100% this.

[@dizzyikea]

Hi John, 21,000kwh seems like a lot (or is that both years still 11ish). I have a large 3 bed house and a Tesla M3 i use less than 4,000 kwh a year. I can't do any man math to install a battery as much as i would like one for the hell of it. Since getting solar i have spent much more time making sure i preserve power when needed and as such my annual bill for electric is around £300. For me proper management of passive electricity use has been the biggest saver nearly halfling my bill. At £300 a year it would take around 25 years to break even if a PW2 reduced my bill to zero which it would not. It costs nothing to drill down into your usage of power and reduce it, i think this should be the first step for many people.

[@johntisbury]

Thanks Darren for watching. Yes, the 21,221kWh home usage is over 2 years. Solar generation was 11,644kWh. 100% support looking at reducing usage, it's the same with making the property as energy efficient as possible with insulation, cutting draughts, LED light bulbs etc. That's the first thing I did before getting the Powerwall and additional solar, and I'm still doing it. During lockdown I cleaned behind every radiator in the house and the fins at the back which collect lots of dust and reduce the efficiency of heat convection. Amazing how dusty and filled with fluff they were, our heating is much more effective now.

[@bigpete1986]

I guess the glass kiln will take a fair bit of power as will 2x electric cars! Have you thought about an air source heat pump for heating and hot water?

[@james160987]

We have a 4 bed, and looks like 4500 a year , we both work full time, average units are about 350-400kwh per month, what things have you done that reduce your energy consumption, i cant think of how we can get ours down lower, ( wife works from home at the moment but hasn't added much ) all lights are led, and are smart so there often turned off automatcily by schedules at night etc, Did solar make a big difference to your bills?

[@johntisbury]

@ James Sturman we have done quite a few upgrades to reduce our energy consumption. Mainly to the fabric of the building to reduce heat loss and improve the insulation qualities of the house. I've covered these points in later videos, one example here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hofPe3ylj6eLpZY

[@johntisbury]

@Peter Kent apologies for the slow reply, only spotted your question when diving into the comments to answer another question. We have looked into ASHP but there are too many constraints and compromises to make it work financially and aesthetically. I did a video on the thought process here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hofPe3ylj6eLpZY

[@gary8397]

I have a powerwall 2 plus 10 kW of solar cells. I worked it out at previous rates it wasn't really viable financially. I installed it to contribute to lowering greenhouse gases as much as a financial setup. Well, a few weeks after I installed it there was an announcement that the power prices will double in the next two years. Most likely double again over the following 2 years. This is making my decision to install solar and a battery look like a good decision both environmentally and financially after all. When considering installing a system like this you need to take into account how energy prices will go up over time. This has been accelerated by the war in the Ukrain I doubt the prices will ever go down.

[@johntisbury]

Thanks Gary. 100% with you on this. I have just done an updated video on total costs as this one is now out of date by some country mile! The new video paints a much rosier picture. kzbin.info/www/bejne/l5nKpp2JZpqtm9U

[@richardteychenne3950]

Thank you for a very informative, honest and well structured video. Much more convincing than the hype from suppliers.

[@johntisbury]

Thank you for watching Richard, glad you found it usefulI. I appreciate your comment.

[@joel0932]

Great video John! Just one Absolutely key part you missed in your savings is the price of petrol/diesel! (Apologies if you did and I missed it.) Like you say, too many variables to factor in. The only way to get a good overview imo would be to compare what what you would be paying right now if you put all that setup in the bin and went back to gas,electric and petrol/diesel. Fascinating stuff there and I’ll keep a look out for update videos from you. All the best 👌🏼

[@johntisbury]

You are right, I did miss the savings from petrol/diesel. Thank you for watching. This video is almost 2 years old now, I've updated it with a newer version. kzbin.info/www/bejne/l5nKpp2JZpqtm9U

[@G6EJD]

Another well presented video John, I enjoyed watching it. I think you should have used a NPV (Net Present Value) calculation on your initial PW outlay to give a much better indication of its true value by taking into account what the initial outlay would be worth in say 10-years - buying power reduces each year due to inflation and the same applies to the value of system savings too. The problem with all of these calculations is; as you rightly mentioned, that the number of variables is so high that it really does make it quite impossible to work out. I think even if someone applied a highly rigorous analysis of all variables then they would not be able to summarise the benefits. I do all this for ecological reasons rather than anything else.

[@johntisbury]

Thank you for watching David, you bring up some great points. Interesting approach using NPV, I'd not thought about that. The Powerwall is not a tangible investment and those that think they will get a ROI in the short to medium terms will be disappointed. I perhaps didn't stress enough the ecological benefits and feel good factor in the video, giving just a small nod to using 26% less grid energy, plus we're not using grid power during peak demand periods when electricity is expensive and potentially dirtier to produce.

[@protectiongeek]

@@johntisbury David makes an important point. If you're considering the capital cost over a significant timeframe like 10 years, you really should factor-in that £57 this month won't have the same value in 10 years' time! I agree that a lot of people installing solar batteries are more motivated by environmental benefits and a limited degree of energy independence than having a very sharp pencil when it comes to the -exact- cost down to the last penny.

[@geoffnewman3109]

Really need to consider the potential income the original capital cost would deliver if invested as an alternative. What if it had been in TSLA shares?

[@johntisbury]

If I had invested in Tesla shares I would be better off financially for sure. However, I'm no stock market analysis, pundit or toe dabbler. Not my thing.

[@MrKlawUK]

Do the modes allow for the following use case? Charge off peak during octopus go 4hr window, discharge during all peak times, and use solar where possible to top up during peak? I only have a small 2.6kw pv which won’t generate enough even in summer for the full 24 hours, but I do want to leverage it as much as possible. I estimate I’d probably need about 5-10kwh charged overnight to carry me through depending on season (5 in summer, 10 in spring)

[@johntisbury]

No they don’t, you cannot force export. You can add your outgoing rates (recent feature after this video) and let the Powerwall manage export. However you lack full manual control.

[@EnsoTB]

As 2 retired individuals, 21,000 kWh is quite a large energy draw compared to an average household. As an individual who leaves home to work 4-5 times a week, I imagine that if the power wall can cover 26% of your usage, it could potentially cover nearly 100% of mine as I use around 7000 kWh and am usually home in the evenings when panels wouldn’t be generating. Very informative and useful video! Thank you

[@johntisbury]

Thank you for watching James. Good pick up on individual usage, everyone's energy needs is different, as you point out we are not a typical usage case. We do use a lot of energy. 2 x EVs, 2 x glass kilns, 1 x 13kW battery all adds up over the course of the year. It does sound like a Powerwall would indeed cover your evening usage based on your data. Food for thought perhaps. Glad it was useful.

[@clubrepedd]

John, thank you for this video. Can you help me with my missing logic? I don't have solar, but my usage is similar to you. Let's say 20KW per day, 365 days, 7,300 KW per annum. Cost at the current tariff around 28p(!) £2,044. If you utilise the off peak energy to charge the battery with Octopus Go at 7.5p, then discharge it during the peak hours - you're getting 13.5KW at 7.5p total annual cost of £369.56 and the remaining daily usage of 6.5KW at the Octopus peak rate of around 35p at £830.38 annual. Total annual bill of £1199.94. That's an annual saving of £844.06 or £8,440.60 over the 10 year battery guarantee. This is all without taking into consideration your solar. Arguably two of your batteries would give a total capacity exceeding daily usage and a spend of 7.5p per KW, total annual bill then at £547.5 saving £1,496.5 annually and £14,965 over the decade paying for your second battery with change. Again, without taking into consideration your solar. What am I missing?

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching Rich. This video is really out of date now, plus there's a maths error in it. I detailed this as a pinned comment and in the description. I've updated it and included our total costs and savings rather than trying to isolate them as I did here. kzbin.info/www/bejne/l5nKpp2JZpqtm9U Your maths seems sound.

[@marktiller1383]

I've had my Powerwall 2 since August 2017, performance lifetime 46% solar 54% Powerwall. Selfpowered is easy when you live in Australia. And I also own a Ev and a sanden heat pump for hotwater, AC and heating is electric. Power outages, quite a few and long lasting 13 hours and 45 minutes for the longest, I was the only house with power in my street. How to piss your neighbours off when its dark during a blackout, open your curtains.

[@johntisbury]

Thank Mark, geographical location is everything. Lol at curtains sideshow! Thanks for your stats, 54% self-powered is impressive with AC and heat pump.

[@marktiller1383]

That's Powerwall 54% + 46% solar =100% selfpowered

[@johntisbury]

@@marktiller1383 ah got it, even better then! :-)

[@peterryan7340]

Is that South Australia

[@danielyoung8936]

I don't get it I'm afraid John. You're dropping (as of Dec 2020 anyway) £40 a month for the privilege of a simply having a Tesla battery occupying space in/around the house but not *really* seeing it as a negative. I appreciate the world has moved in the last 18 but even at the time of the video's creation, I couldn't imagine anyone thinking a ten year £6800 investment resulting in £4800 still owed at the end of the period as anything other than bonkers. And luridcrously I'm saying this as someone who has just spent the best part of £10k on a 5.5kWh solar / 11.6kWh battery solution (March 2022!)

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching Daniel. A couple of points. There's was a maths error in my video, the correction is in the description, pinned comment but I know not everyone reads those. The cost I quoted I'd double so it's just £20. The savings quoted, as you pointed out, were only ever correct at that point in time. If we look at current energy prices in the UK which have doubled/tripled, then the savings will be dramatically reduced. Energy prices are only ever going to be going one way. In this video I just looked at the battery cost in isolation rather my whole system. What I didn't mention is we get FiT payments which have already covered the cost of the solar array that I was referring to. The battery cost has also been covered by the FiT payments and the additional solar array fitted in late 2019 will also be recouped next year 2023. Finally, being more energy independent, especially in the current political and environmental does bring with it a sense of relief and certainly reduces stress levels as you have more control over your energy use. Congratulations on your solar and battery.

[@SimonAmazingClarke]

Excellent video, you put a lot of detail into that. As the prices of these installations continues to drop they will get more and more economical. So in addition to a 4 bedroom house you have three kilns. They must use a lot.

[@johntisbury]

We only have one kiln on at a time. They use 5kW maximum on their longest programme. Which is about about 50 pence worth of electricity at cheap rates. Thanks for watching, glad you enjoyed.

[@MD-kv2gc]

John, forgive what might be a dumb question/failure to listen properly... You note £57mth cost 10yrs, saving £18/mth over 10 yrs in theory. But... How much car fuel are you saving? What is capital cost of solar over 25 yrs, what about all the other capital costs - eddi zappi etc. At first glance it seems like you will not break even. What am I missing?

[@johntisbury]

Good questions and there's a number of things I didn't include in the mix as the video was purely about the Tesla Powerwall. However, as you've intimated it's not a standalone item and part of my overall system. The capital cost of the initial solar PV array was paid back in Dec 2018 from the FiT payments. This was the same month the battery was installed so I've not included it in the costings. Likewise I've not included the zappi, eddi costs either as both these have been covered by the FiT payments we get for our first solar array. The FiT payments will bring us into profit next year against everything we have purchased, both solar arrays, the battery, eddi, zappi etc. I have not factored in the fuel savings so that would certainly shorten the return on investment timeline especially as we were doing 500 miles a week commute. I found it difficult to exclude/include things as in some cases a) I don't have the data, b) it's difficult to see where the energy is going / coming from and to account for it c) changing energy suppliers and tariffs add complication to the equation. In the end it becomes way too complex to map out and calculate. I know this doesn't really answer your question, but in short we have in effect already broken even on the battery. By end year, everything we have will be paid back and we will be in profit. The money from the FiT payments I'm putting into more home energy efficiency improvements.

[@dombaker6210]

Can you do a breakdown of the cost of the system including the cost of both solar arrays over their life span, the gateway and the eddi etc and break down the whole system cost into the savings for a final figure.

[@johntisbury]

Hi Dom A great question. I'm pulling together that very video at the moment as a number of people have asked for it. Thanks for watching. Cheers John

[@bikepackingadventure7913]

You should re-do your savings now - April 2022 - now that the cost of electricity has gone up through the roof to put it mildly 😳😳 Now your Tesla system seems a massive good decision 👍 It’s not just about money, when we start having blackouts in the U.K., I presume you will be protected by being more self sufficient of the grid ?

[@johntisbury]

Funny you should say this. I am recording a video to do just that. Total costs, total savings including running cars over petrol versions. Coming soon.

[@Barrybristle]

Thanks John. Your detailed analysis has helped to convince me that a Powerwall 2 should be a worthwhile addition to our Solar/Eddi/Zappi setup. I have just signed the contract but will have to wait until mid-January to see it in operation due to delivery constraints from TESLA.

[@johntisbury]

Thanks Peter, exciting news on your Powerwall, not so exciting on the delivery timeline.

[@BlackBuck777]

An enjoyable video, thanks. It's interesting to read the comments from folk I can only call luddites, there are some seriously odd statements made. In November 2021 I happened to have some decent savings so invested those and took a 0% government loan to purchase a Powerwall 2 to hook up to my existing solar panels. My rationale was that it was more productive to invest in my home than having savings doing practically nothing. At least it was an investment in my future comfort, as I'm closer than I would wish to retirement. As things have turned out my timing was good, however the bigger bonus is that I can maximise my use of solar panels. The Tesla app shows me when to use power and I'm much more disciplined to use power serially (i.e. one consumer at a time) rather than in parallel (all on!) as the P2 outputs at just over 3kW. I note my system is very simple compared to yours yet my savings at 46% are approaching yours 55% self powered - with a few months to go to complete the "installed" year. Winter costs will be high but when half the year costs almost nothing I'm not concerned. Living in an area where outages are possible, the alert and off grid (Gateway2) features are ideal. I would only add that now having a PV + battery system it only begs the question - why are panels still sold on their own? (At least in the UK) Some incentive action is needed to push integrated systems forward.

[@johntisbury]

Thank you for watching. Agree about the comments, many of them don't age well. I'm sure those same people are now looking at solar and home storage batteries along with 10 million other people! I was chatting to our solar installer, he was saying that he and many of his fellow companies are booked up for 12 months in advance now, they just have too much work. It seems many people now get having rooftop solar and a home storage battery is a good idea. Seems a shame our UK Government has always been pushing gas and oil. Too many conflicts of interest around fossil fuel investments and lobbying for their own selfish gains.

[@Jaw0lf]

I have now had mine for just over 1 year and at the same time, I doubled my solar as East / West location, adding a further 4KWh solar to the front of my home. The main save is that my use of electricity is now 89% night use, which has been a massive change from around 33% before the extra solar and Powerwall2. So not only is there saving as you have worked out, but it is at the lower rate, therefore extra savings. Using your sums, I used 16,000 KWh for my home during the last 12 months, 27% Powerwall 2 from my Self Powered Lifetime. This is saved from my expensive daytime tariff of 19.35 pence, so £835.92 in the first year. This multiplied by 10 is £8359.20 meaning I have saved over my initial purchase price of the Powerwall 2 and I expect the savings to increase as electricity prices increase. For extra information my Solar generation was approx 10,000 KWh. Great video and i must admit thinking of adding a second powerwall 2.....

[@johntisbury]

Great to hear about your savings. As you point out, electricity prices have risen and will continue to do so, shortening the payback period.

[@Jaw0lf]

@@johntisbury Thanks John and as mentioned, you have had extra savings when the powerwall fills at cheap rate and lets you use that instead of paying the high rate as in my nightrate offset figure. My daytime rate is approx 3x that of night, so again that would be a large saving! perhaps that is something you could add in to your calculations..???

[@johntisbury]

This is very true. It’s very difficult to record how much electricity is used at cheap rate to charge the Powerwall without downloading the data from the app. I don’t feel the need to record and collect even more data.

[@animalmotherdk2649]

COMPLETE VAPORWARE. DONT INVEST. What normal person could even afford solar pannels the price is shocking and dont get at me about saving in the long run savings in the long run dont help out now. The prices to this are just to high for any real person to eevn contemplate doing this.

[@johntisbury]

There are many options to get solar panels. Many energy companies will pay to install the panels and you benefit from the free electricity generated. Like many things in life there are options and choices. It's worth pointing out that solar panels installations have come down in price and are now more than 70% cheaper than they were 10 years ago.

[@roadbikeman]

Amazing thanks for sharing this I’m looking into getting one! I noticed you calculated based on 2 years being 48months :-| so the 18.39 a month may be half that? It’s really interesting to me though as my family are using so much energy and I have the long range tesla using even more!

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching Darren. Yes I made an error on the calculations, there's a pinned comment to that effect. This was posted in Dec 2020 and the position on electric prices has changed considerable. I'm working on updating this video, however the short outcome is that it is almost certainly worth getting a home storage battery now! I cannot see electricity prices going anywhere until the green levies are removed by 2028 and the gas/electric pricing structure is revised to better reflect production efficiencies and carbon footprint.

[@rakeshjanu]

All seems fine,good project.I am on the way.Only one thing I want to ask that in UK ,you can only install 3.65kw in single phase and 9kw in three phase supply system. How you installed more than 3.65kw system ...? I installed 3.65kw and looking to extend it to 5kw,haven't got clue yet....

[@johntisbury]

Hi Rakesh, thank you for watching. You may want to watch my video so you want solar kzbin.info/www/bejne/pJbMZJihqsSLa7M as this explain the limits on solar installs and approval process in a little more detail. In short, if it's below 3.68kW then it's reapproved by your DNO. If it's above then there's a different form and work cannot start before approval. Most installers will suggest the first option as it's quicker, guaranteed to be installed so it's a win for them and a win for the customer.

[@JeremyMacMull]

Very interesting video and more interesting in how different our stats are. I have a 7.7 Kwp system with gateway 2 and powerwall 2 however one hell of a lot more power generated in 12 months (9Mwh) as such the maths changes a lot. Secondly the Gateway 2 has allowed me not to buy UPS's for my servers and arguably saved well over its cost. I reckon pay back in about 9 years but to be honest its not all about the payback is it. sods law though ive had no outages at all during the 14 months ive had my system.... well apart from me testing things.

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching Jeremy our stats are very different aren't they. The larger solar array is certainly catching more sunshine and would make a large difference in terms of savings. Totally agree about return on investment not being the main driver. With the Gateway 2 at least you have peace of mind if and when you have an outage - that's always a bonus. I looked at getting ours upgraded to a Gateway 2, but just not worth the cost tbh.

[@salokin1]

Have you tried an "artificial" power outage by flicking a grid master switch? Would be interesting to confirm whether the switching to Powerwall backup is quick enough for your servers not to be affected.

[@daviniarobbins9298]

I noticed you didn't say how much the whole lot cost to install? Installing the solar panels, the battery(I know the powerwall 2 costs £5000+vat to buy). Maybes things have changed since I last looked at battery charging but doesn't it take over 3 hours of sun shining to charge fully the battery. I live in a flat though so this isn't really a thing in my future(well unless the government forces it, don't know how it would work with flats a mixture of private and public owned flats sharing the same roof).

[@johntisbury]

In this video I just looked at the battery cost in isolation rather my whole system. What I didn't mention is we get FiT payments which have already covered the cost of the solar array that I was referring to. The battery cost has also been covered by the FiT payments and the additional solar array fitted in late 2019 will also be recouped next year. Have you looked at Ripple energy? You can purchase part of a wind farm and get credit on your utility bill directly from the generation it creates. Ideal for people who cannot fit solar PV / batteries etc.

[@JamesPrenter]

Great explanation and very helpful. Financially not so good as payback is probably over your own lifetime. For those concerned more about carbon emissions and self reliance it may make sense but to me at age 73 its a no go scenario.

[@johntisbury]

Thanks James for watching and you make a fair point about payback. Most home battery solutions will struggle to give a payback. Not aimed at you but I do think that perhaps we're a little too programmed to think that way due to sales and marketing spiel of products. Double glazing stating savings on energy bills, insulation companies stating savings on energy bills, solar panel companies stating savings on energy bills. Whilst some of these products do and will get a return on investment it's not guaranteed or it's a long payback period. How often do we expect a return on our investment when we buy a new car, a gas boiler a new bathroom, kitchen or similar. Just my thoughts for a Sunday morning! LOL As you point out those concerned with their carbon footprint and wanting to be self-reliance and cut down on grid usage, then a home storage battery makes perfect sense. As a return on investment, not so much.

[@sahhull]

@@johntisbury I buy a new car when the old one is uneconomical to repair. That's why I'm driving a 20year old van with 450,000 miles on the clock. My boiler and bathroom are the same. If it's working, it's staying. The last time the bathroom got a refit was when the bath cracked. The kitchen was fitted over 40 years ago. It still works.

[@philippayne8901]

Hi thanks for your information, however one thing doesn't make sense to me. How can your power saving only be 26%. If in the summer your powerwall fully charges in a few hours and provides enough power for a full day's electricity? If it gives you 20kwh storage in a few hours then the rest of the time you should be putting power back into the grid. You don't mention your solar panel costs. I would very much like to have an overall appreciation of the cost for both and how much you save each year on electricity cost and when you would expect to have paid back for the entire installation. Thanks.

[@johntisbury]

Hi Philip thanks for watching and for your follow up questions. The saving from grid power of 26% is just for the battery, e.g. the battery has saved 26% of our total energy to power the house from a grid pull. Remember this is over 2 years worth of data, 2 winters, 2 summers. Solar added 30% saving giving us the overall 56% self-power saving. The video topic was just about the Tesla Powerwall 2 and not the costs of the solar installation, which is why I didn't mention it. The solar cost 15k for a 4kW array but this was way back in 2011. The FiT (Feed In Tariff) payments we get for the solar allowed us to break even in Dec 2018, when the Powerwall was installed. We means the panels had paid for themselves. With current prices payback to for a typical installation is 7 - 10 years, however that's a real ballpark figure as there's just too many variables in each installation to make it more than just an estimated RIO figure.

[@pieter1102]

It should be possible to look back two years and find out what tariff you would probably have been on if you hadn't had the solar/powerwall system. So you could just calculate the baseline cost using that tariff for the two year period. If variable rates would make it too complicated (and not knowing the time of usage), you could use the "average cost" figures that must be around somewhere. Compare that to what you actually paid and you have another estimate for the savings that you can compare to the number you presented in the video.

[@johntisbury]

Good suggestion Pieter, I'd not thought of doing that.

[@MrXamolaml]

Great video. The little green energy company just quoted me £14k for 1 Tesla battery and £16k for solar panels so £30k. Wow!! Definitely not worth it.

[@johntisbury]

Thank you. That sounds a bit pricey on face value but not knowing the underlying detail difficult to comment.

[@daubentons1]

Hi John, One point not being made is how different the situation can be with a larger solar array. Most probably can't fit a 10kw array in the space available like we can but it makes a substantial difference to the figures. It also costs little extra at the fitting stage to add a few additional kw of panels. My main reason for looking at these is power cuts. There is nothing more frustrating than freezing during a winter power cut because your solar energy disconnects and all you need to power up the boiler controls is a few measly watts.

[@johntisbury]

Good point, yes indeed.

[@rogerphelps9939]

The regulations as they are at the moment make it rather difficult to have a grid connected system that is rated at more than 4kW. I have a 4kW system for which I get FITS at the original rate so I am paid rather well for that. Any additional capacity would have to be connected past the generation meter but as I understand it, since the whole thing would exceed 4kW (or 16 amps at any grid voltage) different more onerous regulations apply. Is there any way around this?

[@alexpotter9998]

Does your £8000 initial cost include the cost of solar panels? You said about buying some more 12 months in. Is this added on? Looking at whole cost per saving especially with rising fuel costs. Does that include labour and parts

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching Alex and good questions. The savings quoted were only ever correct at that point in time. If we look at current energy prices in the UK which have doubled/tripled, then the savings will be dramatically reduced. Energy prices are only ever going to be going one way. In this video I just looked at the battery cost in isolation rather my whole system. What I didn't mention is we get FiT payments which have already covered the cost of the solar array that I was referring to. The battery cost has also been covered by the FiT payments and the additional solar array fitted in late 2019 will also be recouped next year. I am about to record a new video that looks at our whole system, the total costs, the savings and payback. Including EVs and so on. Should be live very soon.

[@AndyRyan]

Very informative John. Thanks. It would be interesting to factor in the increased value of the property into your savings/return calculations. Of course equity value will change over time, but I would expect this to have quite an impact.

[@johntisbury]

Thanks Andy, glad it was helpful. Hmm, not thought about doing that. We would have a circa £200,000 profit if we did that. On 30/03/2001 it was £196,000 now £400,000 based on sales in 2019.

[@chihuahuadachshund4264]

My whole house is solar powered…. The nearest grid is about 5km away😔. Being off grid devalues your house. But I love it.

[@johntisbury]

Thank you for this input. Very interesting and to be honest I’d love to be in your shoes.

[@jackwatsonepic626]

I pay for my electric bills monthly from a power company I would rather keep it that way because I keep thinking of the cost of all this solo panelling installation and then the cost of things if it all go wrong yes " I understand there might be a guarantee but what if that company goes bust and your buildings / insurance won't pay up everything is fine when it's brand new or a few years old come back and do another video in 20-years time say I bet it's a different story then It's like buying a new Tesla electric car (brilliant at first ) but not in 10-15 years time it won't be I bought a fridge years ago with a year's guarantee the salesman in the shop said do you want to extend that to a 5-year guarantee for a one off payment I then looked at him and said nothing should go wrong with it anyway in the next 5 years to me the guarantee should start after the 5-years I think personally it's all false economy So really it's cost you another £38 a month because you were daft enough to listen to these salesman it might be ok for you but you've not changed my mind .

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching Jack. I guess you didn't see my pinned comment pointing out the mathematical mistake I made in my calculations. I'd doubled the costs which means that it's not costing me £38 per a month it's £19. I too pay my electric bill monthly, however I only pay for 47% of what I actually use as the remaining 53% comes from our solar panels and the battery storage. We have had solar panels for 11 years now. Both the solar panels and the battery have already paid for themselves from the Feed In Tariff payment which we get for having solar panels. I don't believe I included this information in the video as the video was just about the Powerwall battery not the solar installation and it's associated costs. Solar panels have no working parts which means there is nothing to go wrong, they are guaranteed for 25 years. The only thing in the system that can go wrong is the inverter. This can easily be swapped out for £1500 or so. Our current inverter is 11 years old and still going strong.

[@jimhailwood2873]

Have you thought about going on the Tesla energy plan from octopus? It’s something I’m considering switching to from spring to autumn.

[@johntisbury]

I have Jim yes. There’s a couple of things that put me off. Mainly giving control of my Powerwall to Tesla to fill and empty as they need it. Also to get signed up for the tariff you need to provide proof from your DNO that they have approved your installation. I’m not sure whether that’s a one off, or you need to do it every time you change tariffs.

[@rodden1953]

@@johntisbury Thanks John thats just what i thought about the Tesla plan and i hadnt really investigated in , But i like to have control .

[@johntisbury]

Yeah, I’m like it’s my ball! ⚽️ 😂

[@jimhailwood2873]

@John Tisbury Agreed. I’m not the biggest fan of giving away control of it but with net metering it kind of makes sense. 11p in/out is a good deal. But the way it’s ‘anticipated’ the weather/my forecasted usage I’m not sure I trust it’s ability to predict much of anything really.

[@johntisbury]

@@jimhailwood2873 I don't think Tesla get the UK weather!

[@GeneralLiabili]

Spotted a couple of errors in your calculations. You divided your savings by 48 months as opposed to 24 months (2 years). You also used average electrical cost as opposed to peak when the power wall would deliberately discharge. I suspect if you correct these two you’d likely come close to even.

[@johntisbury]

Thank you for comment and well spotted. I have added that maths error mistake as a pinned comment, in the description and the chapter titles, but appreciate not everyone sees those.

[@davidbarnes5953]

Well done John, I got one question about the two electric cars that you charge at home. This I would be a cost saving due to the fact of not having gas purchases. I think this should be added to your overall saving for your systems. Thanks

[@johntisbury]

Good point David, I’m planning a video that covers everything, so will include that.

[@dougrennie5668]

@@johntisbury how would be a cost saving ? the money you would of spent on buying electric cars would of paid for two normal petrol cars and upkeep for a few years .

[@johntisbury]

@@dougrennie5668 agreed that the cost of buy a brand new electric car is more than the equivalent ICE powered car. However, many reports have determined that running one is around 70% cheaper over an ICE car. That figure is probably higher with the current fuel prices. Since making this video we have sold one of our EVs, with marginal depreciation after 3 years and purchased a secondhand EV for 14K. Comparable to any secondhand ICE car price point. Source for costs: www.drivingelectric.com/your-questions-answered/466/what-cost-running-electric-car

[@rogerphelps9939]

Does the EV charger track the excess solar generation so that, even if the excess solar generation is only a kilowatt or so, the car does not exceed that? The standard brick charger that plugs into a 3 pin socket clearly doesn't have that ability and neither does my Rolec fast charger that just charges at around 6.6kW. Charging when the sun shines is OK but with clouds coming and going it is not ideal

[@johntisbury]

Yes the zappi tracks excess solar and diverts it to the car rather than exporting to the grid.

[@richardcjay]

Great video and thanks for your open and honest stats. It seems that the financial benefit is slimmer than I thought 🤔 but I do appriciate that there are associated benefits beyond just the financial ones.

[@johntisbury]

Thanks Richard, glad the data was helpful

[@philipsheldon5975]

Looks To me like if you don't have to pay for the equipment you can save a fair amount of money but having to keep adding things and changing supplier is going to be even more expensive. So if you have lots of money to buy this stuff go ahead you will be dead before you get a return. Just my opinion, video was ok 🙂

[@johntisbury]

Thanks Philip for your thoughts. Things have changed significantly since this video was made with energy pricing. I've made an updated version which covers our whole system, total costs, plus total income. kzbin.info/www/bejne/l5nKpp2JZpqtm9U Your point about getting a return is interesting. Many people refer a return on investment as have I in the past. My thinking nowadays is along these lines. When someone shows you their brand new car they just purchased we say "Oooh nice car". When friends have had a new kitchen fitted we say "What a gorgeous kitchen, love it" or similar. When someone buys solar panels or a home storage battery they ask "What's the payback on that?" To me it seems odd.

[@roberthenderson83]

Thank you for an interesting video mate !

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching Robert.

[@CJTongue]

Did you include the money from the power you sold? It seem you only accounted for the power you didn't buy. The other question was why not calculate the longer term monthly price, doing all that maths then assuming it will pay off eventually is a bit odd. You know how much you need to make to pay it off (including a nominal interest rate) so why not see how long it would take at either your year 1 or year 2 rate.

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching. We don’t get paid for export per-say. We get FiT payments which includes a 50% deemed export of our generation total for each quarter. In terms of calculations I’m just finishing off a video that covers all our costs and savings which is perhaps a better way of showing the savings than this video does.

[@jno5]

Another great informative video John; I’m in the process of getting planning permission and would like a full setup just as yours....but the upfront cost is an issue, how much was your total system (Solar, Powerwall 2, Gateway, MyEnergi Systems etc) and how much has the whole system saved you; if you take what your system has produced and what you’ve used in total and workout what your saving / costs would be (at your average electric rate).....how long will it take to get you outlay back in savings....?

[@johntisbury]

That's a tough question to answer in the comments section. I feel a video is required to cover this topic fully. Thanks for the suggestion. Just as a tease, our total outlay for all our equipment is £27,880. However, if you were buying again today you could easily knock 40-50% off that figure.

[@jno5]

John Tisbury - The would be a very useful and informative video if you did decide to do one. Earlier in the year I had an estimate of around £8000 for a 5kWp SunPower system, so add in a PowerWall 2 and it would be about 40% less....

[@johntisbury]

@@jno5 I will certainly do a video about it for sure. I've already created a folder on my computer for it! The benefit of scale in manufacturing has really made an impact on the price of solar panels. Our original 4kWp system was from 2011 it was very expensive back then.

[@iantyrer1155]

@@johntisbury If you had the solar installed in 2011 you would have surely received the best FIT rates at the time as did I in 2012. Having upgraded your system with extra Solar panels and the Powerwall have you been taken off those excellent FIT rates? I'm wary of upgrading in any way as these original FIT rates are guaranteed for 25 years and index linked.

[@johntisbury]

I do get the gold plated FiT payments, although I’ve not included them in the savings shown here. When we added more solar in 2019 we added a completely separate system and left the original system intact.

[@richardharrison5663]

Does this cost include the solar panels as well and insulation of the full set up. I worked out it would take me about 25 years to break even and buy that point the solar panels may need replacing and probably the way ev cars have gone needed 2 new ppowerwall's don't know if anyone has any data on the likely efficiency and life of these power walls. Great video though I do really want a set up like this but our electricity is £40 a month so maths don't add up for me.

[@johntisbury]

Thank for watching Richard. Powerwall guarantee 70% SOC after 10 years. In the description under the video and in the pinned comment I explain why I didn’t include the PV costs. Basically they were already paid for when the battery was installed, so no need to offset those costs.

[@mentality-monster]

This is the problem I have every time I look at battery storage, it can't be justified financially as the payback period is far too long for a normal person. Putting £7k into something that hopefully pays for itself in over 10 years (at which point the warranty has run out) is something only an enthusiast will do. I like the idea of it in theory, but until it actually pays for itself, in reality, it's a non-starter.

[@johntisbury]

This is very true. Until home battery storage becomes more mass market the benefits of volume production reducing the price. Today's price points and payback time will be the stumbling block for many. Tesla Powerwall is top of the range for home battery storage solutions and there are other more affordable options, however as with most things, if you are price led, then the product range you are looking at may have reduced features, performance or longevity.

[@GM-ii8gs]

@@johntisbury Alas the Powerwall is not the top of the range battery in the market, you're fallen for their marketing, it's made with grade B cells, we were offered exclusive rights on the Powerwall in the UK market when Tesla first launched it years ago, but our insurers wouldn't allow us to touch them, we can only get insurance on grade A cells, thank god, because we now do a battery with a much higher capacity, costs way less and has a 15-year warranty with individually replaceable cells, force charge ready and in stock, sales are flying, we're killing the Powerwall with it in the UK.

[@DaveJonesTrevescan]

@@johntisbury can you send me details of your batteries please

[@johntisbury]

@@DaveJonesTrevescan what details did you want other than what is already in the video and in the description below the video?

[@N0xiety]

@@GM-ii8gs Mhm, and why don't you give a company/brand name? Why do you only mention Tesla? Do some advertising, why won't you? That's quite strange huh? Who are these 'we' you keep mentioning?

[@samthomas1457]

You say at the end you have reduced your reliance on the grid by 26%, So 74% of your usage is still reliant on the grid which doesn't seem great, but then again it's 26% green energy which is good all bit it with the impact of the solar panels and powerwall.

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching. The video really looked at the Powerwall only, I’ve done a follow up video that covers all our components and costs / savings. Our total costs for our home energy generation kzbin.info/www/bejne/l5nKpp2JZpqtm9U

[@zzpaul01]

I realise this is a couple of years old, thinking of doing something myself to offset the new increased costs, we don't use as much power as you and I don't have either hot water tank or Evs, I like the look of the givenergy hardware. I assume your CBA will look much more likely to recover all your costs in a few years, and enjoy some free energy.

[@johntisbury]

Thanks Paul. Yes the payback period has greatly reduced. I have done an update video 2 weeks ago that covers all our costs over the 10 years and how we are looking in terms of debit or credit. Spoiler, we are in credit.

[@andrewdarby8827]

As to savings, lifestyle also plays a part such as using high powered appliances when the sun shines directly on the panels if like us you don't have a battery. Looking on the roof and shouting to the wife " OK you're OK to bake your cakes"

[@johntisbury]

Very true, we do this even with owning a battery!

[@beadlesastout]

The way to look at it is on average is the monthly payments for the wall and the electricity bought more or less than if you just bought electricity? If your monthly payments are lower then it is worth it. If it works out more costly per month then it's no good. You can't take future trends into account as they haven't happened yet.

[@johntisbury]

Thank you for watching. You can certainly forecast projections, but they may be wrong. That said looking at recent events with energy pricing globally it's a safe bet to say that energy prices will always increase. I like you approach to looking at the cost/savings.

[@lascellesreid-barlow8250]

Have you heard of Tesla energy services ( electric company basically) , the price seemed to offer some great advantages? What are your thoughts

[@johntisbury]

Hi, thanks for watching. Yes I've heard and investigated the TEP via Octopus Energy. It's a great concept, 8p/kWh and no standing charge. My reservation is around giving control of my Powerwall to Tesla to charge / discharge as they wish.

[@automotivel3501]

Surely John, even with all the variable changes you have done. You know what your energy use was pre-install, versus last year in kWh. the price per unit is immaterial.

[@johntisbury]

No I didn't which is why I mentioned it. Apart from the factors I'd already mentioned there was another underlying factors which I was aware of but didn't at the time know the cause. It turned out that our smart meter was incompatible with our Tesla Powerwall leading to erroneous usage data and phantom draw. This took 18 months to resolve. It was only when I had the Powerwall installed and sometime later a smart meter that I really started to track usage data. Before then I was not recording it or taking any notice if it.

[@cleasberg3461]

must say happy me live thailand grid energy 5 bath 1kw hour goverment pay 2.2 bath kw hour yes i make good money from my own money bank only pay 0.5% n your money if can sell grid dont invest battery ore a small 5 kw al buy from huawai made china for me its no one

[@johntisbury]

Makes sense, doing micro generation pays off

[@VadasNWS]

I guess now your powerwall cost you 0 a month. As electricity price have doubled and looks like will go up again in October.

[@johntisbury]

Yes it's certainly made things much more viable.

[@SteveErhardt1]

Really helpful thanks, also recognised your glass room from your Fired Glass channel which I already subscribe to.

[@johntisbury]

Haha, small world indeed Stephen! Glad it was helpful. Thanks for watching and subbing to FiredGlass. Top man!

[@dutch6947]

For this to be viable you are ultimately dependent on the amount of solar power accumulated and your usage to be high even then its questionable. Not including an average or a current standard cost for your solar panel configuration is wrong as this element (battery) within your household entirely depends on the solar panel array. A household with an annual usage of 2400Kwh with 50% coverage via the battery would only reduce the cost of the battery from 6480 to 4440 over a 10 year period. Also, the difference between power out 6897Kwh & 26% of home usage (5517 Kwh) is this because of the battery sending excess to the grid or an error in efficency? 5517/6897 = 80%. Ultimately to isolate this device when it is dependent on various elements of your current set up doesn't make sense and when we try to, applying your saving of 36.78 in relation to the cost of the battery means it would take 14.6 years to pay for itself. With a shelf life of 25 years thats more than half in just paying for itself again if we keep the battery 'isolated'.

[@johntisbury]

In this video I just looked at the battery cost in isolation rather my whole system. What I didn't mention is we get FiT payments which have already covered the cost of the solar array. The battery cost has also been covered by the FiT payments and the additional solar array fitted in late 2019 will also be recouped next year. The savings quoted were only ever correct at that point in time. If we look at current energy prices in the UK which have doubled/tripled, then the savings will be dramatically reduced. Energy prices are only ever going to be going one way.

[@Elliott_Wave]

I guess you saved on petrol...

[@johntisbury]

Yes indeed.

[@iannonhebel677]

Your costs allowing for inflation before your new system was installed against the current system including depreciation for all of its components not just the battery is the only way of establishing whether it was worthwhile

[@johntisbury]

Thanks Ian good input and suggestion.

[@etourtchaninoff4361]

Electric is now 52ppkh from Oct 2022 so you could do with the savings compared to this figure.

[@johntisbury]

It would be a very short return on investment. This was is now well over 2 years old. I've done a newer version looking at our total investment and payback which gives a much rosier picture. With October's price point solar and a home storage battery is a no brainer.

[@frankschlanker]

Sounds great, but surely having a spare storage facility would allow you then to go "off-grid" altogether?

[@johntisbury]

In principle yes you are correct. However, it depends on a number of factors. The Gateway 1 does not allow off-grid operation, the current Gateway 2 does. We have a Gateway 1. Our battery holds 13.5kWh, sounds a lot, but that would not power our house for a typical day if we used power like we normally do. This means we would have to scale back our demand, not impossible, but needs managing.

[@eliotmansfield]

Agile pricing since Jan is bonkers unfortunately - hopefully you went back to Go.

[@johntisbury]

I did! 👍

[@garethrees8237]

If you are on the fence re the cost and detailed analysis then suggest you simply decide based on green credentials and the urgent need for this country to be energy self sufficient and not rely on Putin et all. Sold.

[@johntisbury]

This is very true. However the financial proposition makes much more sense now with energy prices as they are. This video is now out of date as it's 2 years old. I have done a refresh video which covers my total costs and total savings to give the whole picture. kzbin.info/www/bejne/l5nKpp2JZpqtm9U

[@reviewassistant6891]

Do a solar Vs powerlall savings analyst One without electric car and one with Powerlall is cheaper so might actually save more with octopus go

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching. I’m just finishing off a video covering those very points.

[@lamayengineeringservices]

Thanks for this. I'm torn between the power wall & two giv energy batteries(8.2kw)

[@johntisbury]

Check to see what the ramp up rate is on the GivEnergy batteries. Powerwall will deliver 5kW instantly. It will also charge up to 5kW too from excess solar. Not sure of the specs on the GivEnergy ones.

[@dakinane]

Is not charging your cars also a saving that should be factored into the equation as you now purchase one less fuel?

[@johntisbury]

It can be for sure, you make a valid point. Most charging of the cars is done with excess solar, rarely boost direct from the Powerwall. We certainly save loads on petrol costs now we have 2 EVs. We used to do 100 mile a day commute in the petrol car which then was done in the EV. A massive saving in fuel.

[@GRANTY960]

Power wall will be more beneficial when using electric cars for example. When you can use he power wall to charge the car overnight when the batteries have been charged through the day. The days of earning money off solar panels are long gone. Power walls are the way to actually use that generation.

[@johntisbury]

Good points Grant. A home storage battery is ideal in the winter and through the night time in the summer. That's where it wins by storing excess solar production and/or cheaper overnight electricity to power the house / car during more expensive times.

[@michaelmcclafferty3346]

Thank you so much for such a well explained and informative video. I’m thinking of buying a Tesla Powerwall 2 and your video is the best by far of all those that I have viewed. Thanks again.

[@johntisbury]

Thank you Michael for watching and glad it was useful.

[@hardergamer]

And now with electricity costing £0.35p (37p BG) a unit, which would be now costing you £210 a month for electricity at 20 units a day, so, you are now saving loads.

[@johntisbury]

Very true, the ROI has reduced significantly

[@hardergamer]

@@johntisbury Tonight's BBC news has stated we could be looking at blackouts this winter, and we just had one for 20 hours 2 days ago after a substation failure, I'm so happy to have a solar setup. Plus, BBCQT is now talking about blackouts this winter.

[@ricobass0253]

You've not explained how you set up the system to maximize the savings available from being on the Octopus Agile tariff. Do you have to enter the next day's 30min buy and sell rates into a phone app manually?

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching. The only thing you can plug into the Tesla app is the Peak and Off peak timeslots. So the 4pm - 7pm is peak, the rest is off-peak. There's no facility to drill down to the 30 minute rate changes it's more high level. It's not perfect, but so long as you shift your usage away from peak then it works fine.

[@ricobass0253]

@@johntisbury So no-one offers software that tracks the Agile prices and forward plans times to charge and discharge?

[@daviniarobbins9298]

I estimate you generate up to roughly 6120khw of solar electricity during March to October which if taken from the grid would cost you roughly £1,652.40 at current cap price.

[@johntisbury]

Thank you for this. Yes that's very true, I was intrigued enough to look back at our stats on my spreadsheet. In 2021 March - Oct inclusive we generated 5.3MWh in solar and that would be £1,590 at 30p/kWh.

[@daviniarobbins9298]

@@johntisbury I was going at 27p a kwh but anyway... In June and July you should get up to 9 sun hours per day. Of course not every day is going to be sunny perfect(we live in rainy Britain after all).

[@pwilliams1995]

Great video presenting an end-user perspective of the market leading domestic electricity power storage device.

[@johntisbury]

Thank you for watching

[@josephdewuhan]

I’m sure you are a systematic and smart person that typically puts everything in your life under your neat control. However, your video is so boring for me that I had to quit watching after less than 10 minutes. Why don’t you just cite the prices of the power wall+solar panels+installation and the total amount of kilowatts the system generated over the time you used the system. Cut all other craps and the watchers will be able to figure out the rest.

[@johntisbury]

Well done on making it through 10 minutes - top man.

[@josephdewuhan]

@@johntisbury Hi John, I was really attracted by the title to your video. I'm using my spare time trying to set a solar system at my own house. I have already successfully set up my own solar power system at a lakefront cabin. I'd really like a comparison between my DIY system with your professional system using the Tesla wall. But the info you covered for the time I watched is totally useless. Nobody cares about the fluctutation in electricity prices in your area. You only need to tell others the average kwh you get daily in different seasons.

[@davesoton20]

Not sure if anyone else has mentioned it but it would be worth a comparison to both the standard variable and best current fixed rate tariffs. Comparing to an Octopus average is not something you would be doing if you didn't have a powerwall. Unless you would get up and turn on the dishwasher, washing machine, dryer etc at night to use the off peak tariff. This would give a good comparison for those coming from normal tariffs to the more green tariffs as you would with a powerwall and time based controllers.

[@davesoton20]

Might be worth a revisit with the energy crisis as well as surely its a month on month saving from April?

[@johntisbury]

Thanks David for watching and good points. All our appliances are Miele brand and they feature the ability to set timers to start / finish. We use them all the time to run them during off-peak rates if there's no sunshine. The comparison savings and figures I've used is what it cost me rather than what someone on an average tariff could save. I plan to update the video to cover the increase in costs of electricity, however our tariff does not end until early August so not sure when I will be doing it. I've started pulling together my data all the same.

[@eliotmansfield]

I’m on the old Go tariff. So 13kw x 13.45p=£1.74 grid cost, less 13kw x 5p overnight recharge =65p equals £1.09 per day saving using a powerwall - which is £30 a month - which means any ROI is far in excess of the warranty. Long term electricity will go up and it’s my opinion that ‘cheap’ overnight electricity will cease to exist because of batteries and indeed everyone charging their cars which will put as much load on the overnight grid as we use during the day. Edit 1:- ROI is 17 years using your figure of £6800 for the pw2 Edit 2: Even at 15p a unit and assume no recharge costs - the maximum it can store a day is £1.95 - which is still a 10 year roi - and you are not going to recharge a pw in the winter with solar

[@MrCalumKnox]

Hi John, I live in a rural property and really struggling to understand what’s required to implement solar / battery in my home. Would you be able to give me a hand with any of this at all? Seem to know your stuff!

[@johntisbury]

I can do my best. The best place to start is having a look at this video I did which covers this very topic from the very start. You can do as much or as little as you want in terms of the preparation and finding out. however what is critical is to find out your typical electricity usage over the past 12 months. What the video, it explains it all. Any questions, drop me a line. So you want solar and a home storage battery: kzbin.info/www/bejne/pJbMZJihqsSLa7M

[@MrCalumKnox]

@@johntisbury Very much appreciated John! Will take a look at the videos and review the usage, may be in touch soon. I have an EV too and a calor LPG tank. So going fully electric makes sense

[@MrMoo272]

Bet you're laughing now though, those savings have just increased nearly as much as my costs have

[@johntisbury]

Yes, the tables have turned somewhat. LOL

[@pauldestefano663]

How much carbon is produced in the manufacture and disposal of Tesla batteries?

[@johntisbury]

There's been plenty of science based studies showing that the total end to end life cycle of a battery electric vehicle verse a conventional combustion engine counterpart is significantly better in carbon emissions. Here's a link to a recent study updated in Feb 2020 taking into account electricity carbon intensity and battery manufacture. www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-how-electric-vehicles-help-to-tackle-climate-change

[@mrgadget1485]

Insanity! Your stupid powerwall can store 13.5 kWh and the price of one kWh is about 17p. That means that the wall stores 13.5 x 17p = £ 2.30 worth of energy!!! The idea of a centralized power grid (as opposed to these individual ones) is that there is no need to build these kinds of things in millions of households - the carbon footprint of those millions of powerwalls is INSANE!

[@johntisbury]

In the UK 17p/kWh is a price we just won't be seeing for much longer. Variable tariffs will be changing in April 2022 with the recent price cap announcement. Those on fixed tariffs will see massive increases when their tariff comes up for renewal. Most on fixed tariffs are already seeing 30p/kWh as the standard unit rate. In October there's another price cap review and prices will go up again without a doubt. Out of interest the average variable unit rate in the UK in 2021 varies from region to region. Cheapest is Yorkshire at 18.2p/kWh the most expensive is Northern Island at 19.6p/kWh. In 2022 the estimates are 26.0p/kWh and 28p/kWh respectively. Source: nimblefins.co.uk The standing charge for electricity has also doubled, from around 25p per day to 49p per day.

[@mrgadget1485]

@@johntisbury , Mr. Musk wants obviously to sell this thing to as many clueless buyers as possible. I just want to give my two cents - as a physicist - to this conversation. In my opinion these powerwalls (which are just a pile of batteries) are a hack to make uneducated people believe that they are making sound choices, when they are actually making a huge mistake.

[@johntisbury]

You are welcome to your opinion, that’s all it is, an opinion.

[@brianwild4640]

Did the cost of installing the power wall 2 and the gateway 1 include the first set of solar panels ?

[@johntisbury]

In this video I just looked at the battery cost in isolation rather my whole system. What I didn't mention is we get FiT payments which have already covered the cost of the solar array that I was referring to. The battery cost has also been covered by the FiT payments and the additional solar array fitted in late 2019 will also be recouped next year.

[@scottscott3463]

I've always said to my wife, when we finally afford to buy a house, this something I'd love to get into, especially with the massive increase in energy bills at the moment.

[@johntisbury]

Makes sense. As you say with energy prices increasing regularly being as energy self-sufficient as possible makes sense. Reducing you energy usage by improving the thermal efficiency of your home so you lose less heat is the first step on that journey.

[@scottscott3463]

@@johntisbury I know I would like to get my future house to the point of being a passive house, I remember watching this episode of Grand Designs when they mentioned that the house they're building would be a passive house. I'm pretty sure it had a parabolic arch on it. Well, this is where my interest of having an energy self sufficient house.

[@johntisbury]

ah yes I remember that episode too. Was that the one where it partly collapsed whilst they were building it. It was a wonderful house once it was finished. Passive houses are the way forward for new builds, retrofitting an exiting property can be done, but it's expensive and has difficulties.

[@nickchapple593]

Thanks for sharing your information and data John. Well appreciated

[@johntisbury]

No problems, this video is rather out of date now as it will be 2 years ago since upload with the data being 2 years before then. There's a newer video I've done which covers all our costs and savings across our whole setup, rather than just the Powerwall.

[@danieltpope2518]

Hi John, enjoying the videos! Quick question - I now have my Powerwall. How do you manage zappi boost during octopus go window? I hear it drains the battery even with ‘avoid drain’ setting when it’s on a boost. Thanks!

[@johntisbury]

Hi Daniel, thanks for watching the videos. I don't have a problem during the Octopus Go window with charging the car from the grid, it never takes power from the battery. My settings are: Setting > Time-Based Control. Advanced option Grid Charging set to Yes. Utility Rate plan for the Schedule is Super Off-Peak for the Go period and Peak for the rest of the day. Pricing is as per my rates; £0.08 and £0.34 for buy price. Sell price is £0.01 for both Super Off-Peak and Peak. The zappi will pull power from the battery during the peak period if I set it to charge and there's no solar. It will pull from the grid if I schedule a charge during the Go period. Hope that helps.

[@danieltpope2518]

@@johntisbury I’ll give it a go tonight then! Thanks John!

[@johntisbury]

@@danieltpope2518 let me know how you get on. My fingers are crossed for you.

[@liamh153]

I’ve just installed a 8kw solar system and 13.5 kw a month ago. But now I can’t seem to get any economy 7 tariff at all now. It’s been a nightmare. Be carful as this system is useless if you done have the cheep rate at night Does anyone know if company’s doing tariffs now? Thanks in advance.

[@johntisbury]

Do you have a smart meter? You won't get a sensible tariff without a smart meter. Octopus energy are still doing good tariffs like Intelligent Octopi, but you need a smart meter to take advantage of them.

[@liamh153]

@@johntisbury I have a smart meter. But it’s not compatible with them. The i rang British Gas and could not seem to get them to change it.

[@johntisbury]

It would only be non-compatible if it's the earlier SMETS1 standard, rather than SMETS2. Octopus CAN get a SMETS1 to work however it's more hit and miss not guaranteed it will work - it's just a lot more work for them. BG are unlikely to change the meter if it's not faulty. Eventually the SMETS1 will be onboarded into the data centre, but not sure not the current timelines. It would seem that your problem is not so much that the suppliers are not doing cheaper evening tariffs, it's your meter is impotabile with them. You could swap to Octopus, or another supplier, and request a meter exchange. You could even push back at BG as escalate your issue.

[@patrickhawthorneLS]

Sorry,are you using elec heating .. no gas ? Is this a combined fuel total ? I ask because your total is about the same as my monthly elec .. roughly £75, less than £20 a week and gas is about £45 winter months and half that at all other times,this is pre pay key payment and includes running cost and standing charges for maintaning. To me,i would be interested in the powerwall as a back up for power cuts and i would expect a 25% reduction in total elec costs however i would expect a 25 year warrenty of all parts and in turn i would like to also see all homes in the uk with solar with a shared grid tap so we can all reap the benefits and be more green to boot .. every tesco should be covered in solar amd contribute back to the grid let alone all of the retail parks buildings This should have been the case 15 years ago but we live in a pathetic country

[@johntisbury]

We run gas for central heating only. Hot water is heated by electric / solar excess. The figures are just for electric. Comparing monthly bills is not reliable, compare electricity usage. Unit rates, standing charges etc will all impact the bill. Electric usage will be a constant comparable measure.

[@patrickhawthorneLS]

@@johntisbury yes i know what you mean as prices change constantly and units are units however i do have to say that my elec and gas monthly costs havent exactly went through the roof in the last 3 years yet i cant say the same for car running costs .. but what i have found is that home energy costs can be very different from one home to the next and not always dependant on the area or supply which i dont understand nor agree with. For instance some homes here in scotland in more remote areas have oldet meters,same supply but near double costs and the council and energy supply refuse to take responsibility,there should be a law against this and the price should be standard across the country but nothing ever changes in the uk,this alone is why taking control of your own power supply amd usage is a good thing. Your video was very informitive, i wonder is there a reason to only panel one side of the roof ? Does that mean you could be near off grid usage if you were to panel both as your usage was around 55% before using the grid,would that mean also having to install more cells to fill the capacity if you were to install more panels ? Also,i read a comment from someone about elec cars,honestly i think the cost of this install would be worth it alone if it could just run your car and act as some sort of back up in a power cut and the fact it would reduce your home energy bills a little by sending unused energy back to the supply,i think every home should have them Time the uk went green and stopped thinking about it Thank you for reply

[@johntisbury]

I agree about the standardisation of pricing. Petrol is the same isn't it, it costs more in rural remote areas that in heavily populated areas. However, the cost of posting a parcel or letter is the same throughout the UK. It can be done, but seems that living remotely often means you are penalised. We have only panelled one side as panelling what is the street side would require planning permission and most likely be declined. Seems town planners are more interested in aesthetes rather than renewable energy. Positioning panels on what would be the north side of our house would mean we would get a 50% reduction in performance over the panels on the other side of the roof. So it's a low return for the investment. The green agenda is thankfully being pushed up the priority list thanks to recent global events and our desire to wean off fossil fuels. I only see this increasing commitment and desire to have more renewables.

[@beebob1279]

We should be saying goodbye to batteries that are toxic and pollutants. We need to be looking at solar / water generation into hydrogen. It's safer, and clean.. Hydrogen got a bad name for itself but is actually safer than gasoline. Mike Strizki from New Jersey proved that it could be done safely. He has everything on hydrogen. Cars, house, lawn equipment, etc. the storage is safer and cleaner than batteries.

[@johntisbury]

My money is with battery technology for many things. Hydrogen has its place but it's overhyped and still very expensive to produce. Herbert Diess CEO of VW Group tweeted only yesterday "It’s time for politicians to accept science: Green hydrogen is needed for steel, chemical, aero,... and should not end up in cars. Far too expensive, inefficient, slow and difficult to rollout and transport. After all: no #hydrogen cars in sight."

[@beebob1279]

@@johntisbury Not when you're producing it at home. It's nothing at that point. Watch Mike Strizki and interviews on how he did it.

[@johntisbury]

@@beebob1279 yes I'd seen that after you referenced it. Agree about at point of use generation, much more effective and sensible. Not something I can see being replicated across every home in the short to medium term.

[@juttley72]

Hi John, I had my power wall installed in mid December after a 6 month wait. Can I ask a question regarding the settings in the app and how you manage them. I have noticed that during winter I need to set the settings to time of day in order for the power wall to charge overnight on the cheap octopus go tariff. However, when the sun comes up, if I leave time of day selected, any solar gets exported to the grid, and does not top up the battery back to 100%. I therefore have to change the settings in the morning to self sufficient mode in order to capture the solar in the battery. I have twice forgotten to change the settings and resulted in my battery being flat in the morning. Are you aware of anyway to automate the changes between the settings? I assume this annoyance only lasts during the winter and during the spring and summer you just set it to self sufficient mode. cheers John

[@johntisbury]

I'd suggest firstly looking at the monetary values you have plugged into the Utility Rate Plan in the app. Check what the Sell Price is set to, mine is at £0.01, which is the lowest allowable value. If the Powerwall sees that it's more economical to sell the excess solar back to the grid over charging the Powerwall it will do just that. You can also confirm in Advance Options at the bottom of Operational Mode (where you set Self-Powered or Time-Based Control) the option of Grid Charging. Set this to Yes if you want it to charge from the grid, set it to No and it will only charge from solar. Mine is set to Yes and charges off-peak on Go tariff. Any excess solar always goes to charge the power wall and never exports unless everywhere is full. A final point on the Utility Plan, set the Go rates against Super Off Peak, rather than Off-Peak, I've found this is beneficial for charging too.

[@juttley72]

@@johntisbury Hi John, thanks for taking the time to respond. It worked a treat and now works as I would expect. I did not notice the sell values in the plan section and they were set to the same value as what it cost me to buy, so now downgraded as you suggested. thanks again. John

[@johntisbury]

Perfect, glad to hear it worked.

[@paulralston9532]

Since you think their are 48 months in 2 years, how accurate is anything.

[@johntisbury]

Read the pinned comment Paul 😀

[@gmatthews7632]

Reading these comments makes me think that actually these storage devices are more suitable for drawing energy from a grid whose ultimate fuel source is green (e.g. offshore wind) using a dynamic tariff rather than also having solar PVs on your home which is a big up-front cost. Maybe the end of solar PVs in places like UK where we have short days in winter? Surely what they allow us to do is use the most abundant source of energy that is available wherever you happen to be, rather than trying to make each house an off-grid island? I am curious John, if you were starting again from scratch would you get solar panels now we have smart meters, dynamic tariffs and home storage?

[@johntisbury]

This is a very interesting observation. Grid Battery storage would be the ultimate goal, however most of the DNOs (Distribution Network Operators) seem slow to pick up on this. It's happening, but not at a pace. The DNOs ability to store renewable power in battery banks and supply it during peak times and once the sun goes down is a perfect solution. I think that's a few years away to be honest. In the interim a home battery solution makes more sense. Allowing users to energy shift, charge up at off peak and supply the house at peak electricity times. To answer your question. If I was starting again from scratch I would still install solar and a battery. The ability to be as self-sufficient and green in your power consumption and generation is the best option. In the summer months we can be 100% self-powered from our solar during the day and battery, charged from solar, during the night. Winter times, as you allude to are more difficult. I still feel solar makes sense because even on dull days you can generate power. Today it's been a grey day and near the shortest day and we have still generated 2kWh. Not great amount on it's own, but multiply that by half the year that's 365kWh I'm not pulling from the grid.

[@gmatthews7632]

@@johntisbury my house of 6 uses 45kwh a day of electricity so for us that would be less than 10 days, but our useable roof not bigger than yours. Bearing in mind the amount of coal burned in China to make the silicon for the PVs I am not sure over the whole supply chain whether or not it is worth thinking about solar any more. I know what you say about having storage at DNO level because that should be way more efficient (basically the same idea as cloud computing, the big DNOs should be able to acquire all the equipment far cheaper and run the capacity to a far higher degree of efficiency) and that is probably the final step, but in meantime having a scalable home storage without PV is my next step, and I am thinking I will never have PV as the upfront cost introduces too much risk.

[@allwaysinquire6212]

@@gmatthews7632 not to mention the production cycle of the powerwall battery ( mine to wall cost would be quite high I would think) also how is the battery health? Tesla factors in a large battery discharge % so they would I think be at least 85%+ capacity thoughts?

[@jeremyahagan]

You can do further and more detailed cost analysis by extracting the data into a different systrem. I have a very similar setup to you and I pull all of the data from my Sunny Boy and Solar Edge inverters, the Powerwall and my Smart meter into a system I can then use to analyse the exact cost of everything. It takes a fair bit of technical knowledge to do however.

[@johntisbury]

Thank you for suggestion. Our Sunny Boy inverter is 11 years old and has no data extract option. This then limits my options. 😏

[@jeremyahagan]

@@johntisbury mine is similar age. It has a Bluetooth connection which allows data to be extracted with a special app of theirs.

[@johntisbury]

@@jeremyahagan mine was never fitted with the bluetooth option and the board is no longer available unfortunately.

[@devastatn]

I just can't get past the price of electricity changes every thirty minutes.

[@johntisbury]

LOL yes it's a bit head scratching. That's how the wholesale price of electricity is costed here in the UK. The Agile tariff is a beta tariff and tracks that same pricing methodology. It does make comparisons therefore tricky as it's like wack-o-mole

[@abiemogul2204]

Can one use lithium iron phosphate batteries instead of Tesla power wall?

[@johntisbury]

Yes you can, Tesla use the chemistry in the standard range M3 now. . www.allaboutcircuits.com/news/a-closer-look-at-lithium-iron-phosphate-batteries-teslas-new-choice-of-battery/

[@alexandermccarthy]

Excellent breakdown of the many overall bigger pictures relating to solar and the Tesla Powerwall 2.

[@johntisbury]

Thank you Alexander for watching.

[@alexandermccarthy]

@@johntisbury I am contemplation the installation of a solar array with Powerwall 2, so your video is very timely.

[@johnelrick3341]

Why did you not factor in the cost of your solar panels?

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching John. A good question, my solar panels have already paid for themselves with our FiT (Feed In Tariff ) payments, so factoring them in again would mean result in double counting. The solar panels were installed 8 years before the Powerwall was installed, with a second array installed 12 months after the Powerwall. Even if we didn't have FiT payments I took the decision that they were not part of the Powerwall installation and therefore did not need to be factored into the costs of the Powerwall. It's difficult to determine where to draw the line in terms of what to include and what to exclude in costs. Do you include solar panels even though they were not part of the Powerwall installation. If you decide to include the solar panel costs what about the cost of the house as without the roof for the panels to sit on the panels they would not exist. Perhaps a bit extreme, but you hopefully see my point.

[@danjones9999]

It’s all well and good if you want to be ‘green’ but it doesn’t make any financial sense at all. After 10 years you’re still 5 grand out of pocket!

[@johntisbury]

The savings quoted were only ever correct at that point in time. If we look at current energy prices in the UK which have doubled/tripled, then the savings will be dramatically reduced. Energy prices are only ever going to be going one way. In this video I just looked at the battery cost in isolation rather my whole system. What I didn't mention is we get FiT payments which have already covered the cost of the solar array that I was referring to. The battery cost has also been covered by the FiT payments and the additional solar array fitted in late 2019 will also be recouped next year.

[@danjones9999]

@@johntisbury well that’s certainly encouraging, I was disappointed to learn that it didn’t sound all that cost effective. Perhaps going forward it really would make sense to go solar. Probably only worth it if you can come off grid altogether though I would have thought?

[@johntisbury]

Off grid will be the ideal option, the big ticket item is the amount of energy usage. It would not be viable for us as winter time just would get covered by solar/battery without a solar farm. 😏

[@NextDoorFlyer]

Hi John, great video! Would you mind sharing how the benefits of the power wall + solar have changed with the current energy prices?

[@johntisbury]

Thank you for watching, as you point out the energy prices are rather out of date in that video as it's quite old now. I've done an update video which covers my total spending and savings, this was before the massive price hike, but it does give a better rounded picture of total costs and savings. kzbin.info/www/bejne/l5nKpp2JZpqtm9U

[@NextDoorFlyer]

@@johntisbury Thank you very much John, just watched that too. Very informative. Subscribed!

[@johntisbury]

Super, thanks for the sub.

[@ChrisWells1]

Hi John. Further to my previous comment, I thought I'd run some maths (for Victoria, Australia) Economic Rationalism: Assuming that a PV Solar Array is already in place Assuming PV-to-Battery-to-consumption round trip efficiency of 90% Feed in Tariff forgone by sending power to battery : $0.065/kwH Savings in power later on during the night (peak rate) : $0.25/kwH Therefore, savings per kwH over peak-rate electricity : $0.185/kwH Size of Tesla battery : 14kwH, 13.5kWh usable, 90% full cycle efficiency = 12.15kWh per cycle Savings per day = 12.15 * $0.185 = $2.25 Cost of Tesla battery installed : $15,000 Days to recoup cost of Telsa Powerwall2 : 6666 (18.3 years) Conclusion: Li batteries are not economically rational AT ALL. Better to just sell PV electricity into the grid.

[@michaelhall2138]

Don’t understand.Surely any used power has to come through the battery/inverter and can’t come directly from the solar roof.You state that a proportion is attributed to the solar roof and a proportion from battery.

[@johntisbury]

Hi Michael Thanks for watching. Apologies if I didn't make it clear. Solar can either power the house or charge the battery or there's lots of available solar power both! The battery can also be charged from the grid, depending on the mode of operation; Cost Saving rather than Self-Power mode. The bit you are referring to I'm explaining that our house was self-powered from the solar roof generation and also a percentage from the Tesla Powerwall battery. Usually solar during the day powers the house and any excess tops up the battery. When the sun goes down, the battery powers the house. If it runs out, then we pull from the grid. That cycle continues each day.

[@michaelhall2138]

@@johntisbury How many amps per hour on a sunny day from your array? Also the power must vary a lot due to cloudy weather.Tricky.12 volt,24 volt?

[@johntisbury]

Amp hours are usually used in the boating industry where they have solar and 12 / 24v systems. I'm sure it can be worked backwards, but I don't know I'm sorry to say. House solar PV arrays work in kWh for output over a period of time or kW as an instant measure of power. On a good day our array can generate 40kWh over the course of the day on a really bad day in December you can be as low as 200 watts in total over the day.