Joker Vs. Giorno Prediction! (DEATH BATTLE)

[@ghosttengu7825]

Imagine Joker winning by Reflecting GER

[@plimepf9493]

@@ghosttengu7825 I'd cry myself to sleep lol

[@lucasm.3864]

A few things: 1) You spent a bit too long on the different Personas and their moves. You could have just said “He has many different Personas that can heal, buff himself, debuff enemies, and have various elemental attacks” before going into their defenses. 2) You could have gone a bit more in-depth into Joker’s inherent abilities, like his Third Eye, his stuff from the Fortune Arcana, and other abilities he should reasonably get from other Wild Cards and Persona users (like immunity to time-related abilities). The Velvet Room alone is a huge tool for him to fuse Personas mid-battle like Yu has done. 3) The death loop only happens if GER can actually put Joker in that state to begin with. Giorno really only has Physical attacks, which Joker can reflect, nullify, or absorb passively. Even if he didn’t, the stat gap is so large that he can’t do any meaningful damage.

[@plimepf9493]

@@lucasm.3864 hey, appreciate the criticism. I kinda skipped Jokers inherent abilities because I didn't feel they would be the focus of the debate, i felt that the personas is what would be the focus of the episode, so that's what I focused on. Granted I should have at least mentioned it. I don't want to just say "he has many different personas" because I at least wanted to show examples of how many different ways he could instantly kill his opponents, and show some of the cooler persona designs for jojo's fans that may not know about the series. That being said, I could have just said something like "he could instantly kill opponents with" and shown many examples that way to speed things up. As for the last part, death loop isn't really the crux of my argument on why Giorno wins, since it's stated that he needs to be able to kill Joker before it activates (even though we don't see Diavolo die before the death loop begins, but jojo's is inconsistent) my main argument is that regardless of the stat stomp, Joker would still have to hit Giorno which would be crazy hard because of GER, and I don't know about way he could get past it (plus he can age anything with a touch, so he could probably wins that way).

[@notwesley9180]

This matchup is a headache... I do think Joker takes it, but i wouldn't be surprised if Giorno does

[@MasterSword-qs7yc]

So, I think there’s something worth noting that this prediction didn’t touch upon; The Omnipotent Orb. Now I’m not saying Joker should be given this in the fight, however I want to discuss how the orb functions. In Persona Q2, the description for the item states it’s an orb that bends the laws of the universe. For what purpose? To protect the user, of course. It does so by nullifying everything, attacks, status ailments, etc. However, it can’t protect the user from Almighty attacks. And Joker has a ton of those, though Sinful Shell is more noteworthy as it killed Yaldabaoth (and before anyone says Joker can’t use Satanael or Sinful Shell without outside help, not only has Joker acquired Satanael in canon spin-offs like Persona Q2 and Persona 5 Tactica, the hidden boss in Persona 3 Reloaded has him using it, so there’s no reason why he shouldn’t. Besides, Sinful Shell is only my preferred choice for the Almighty attack in question, it’s not necessary) So, if Almighty attacks can bypass an orb that warps reality to protect the user, it stands to reason to assume it would do the same to GER, especially since we know the limits of the Stand and how it fairs against reality warpers. In the game Eyes of Heave, GER’s ability is overpowered by The World Over Heaven, which possesses the ability to overwrite reality. Even though this game is non-canon, not only did Araki have a hand in the story’s development, GER within the game’s story functions the exact same as it does in canon. And now to tackle the ability itself as there’s evidence to suggest that Revert to Zero only happens when Giorno and GER are attacked, either passively or as a conscious reaction by GER. We can conclude this as Diavolo took multiple actions before attacking. Preforming the time skip, seeing his premonition, and even splattering blood on Giorno and GER’s eyes before attacking. And it’s only when his attack is inches away does GER revert it. Because GER was conscious during this, it’s hard to say if Revert to Zero is a passive ability or a conscious move on GER’s part. However, both are moot as Joker can likely bypass the move using any Almighty attacks.

[@plimepf9493]

@MasterSword-qs7yc First off, i do agree that Joker should be able to use satanael and almighty shell, it was the second persona I listed in the video for that reason, because I think it'll be important. I did not include anything from Persona Q2 because it's all just a dream. There are arguments that it could be treated as a seperate reality, but I don't really buy it. That being said, I do love your logic there, it's the closest I've seen that would sway my opinion on the verdict. If they use Q2, than I think that it could gain Joker the win. If they don't use Q2, than I wouldn't use that line of logic at all since it only really exists in that one game. Again though, I really like the logic behind it.

[@plimepf9493]

Sinful shell**

[@MasterSword-qs7yc]

@@plimepf9493 Persona Q2 (and thus Persona Q along with it) aren’t dreams, they’re canon events that the characters end up forgetting…sorta. We know this considering Ezliabeth’s discussion with the P3 Protag in the Persona 3 side of PQ’s story in both the beginning and end, and the ending of Q2 where Joker seems to remember who Hikari is. Plus, if it was all just a dream, wouldn’t it be strange that all these characters had it? And then all but like, two forgot about it? Especially since there’s nothing within the games dialogue that even suggest it’s all a dream to begin with. And bringing up Q2 was a means of explaining that Satanael is still a viable option for Joker (something that’s backed by P5T), as well as expanding on how the Omnipotent Orb functions.

[@plimepf9493]

​@@MasterSword-qs7ycokay so I did some looking up and realize where I got it from (it's been awhile since I've even seen the game), so I thought it was a shared dream they all had, since it wouldn't make much sense that they are all their in game ages when in reality, the p3 characters would be way older during the events of P5, and that alot of the characters wake up believing they dreamt something strange. But I do see that it could just be them thinking that their erased memories were a dream. I'm willing to admit i could be wrong about that part, and that some kind of time space thing happened to make these events effect all of these groups. At the end of the game, I just thought it was some kind of shared dream (like a dream realm of sorts) when I got to the end of the game.

[@guanabana7760]

I will say this. I do think this is pretty even, but reality warping and fate manipulation are similar things but have key differences. Fate manipulation is manipulating the future, and in g.e.r’s case, stopping events from happening. Reality warping is changing the present and what is happening compared to g.e.r’s preventing future events.

[@Stockfish16.5]

Hope this channel grow doon

[@plimepf9493]

I hope i can get better and make content that people enjoy. But thank you for the compliment!

[@ultimax10doesgaming48]

Rooting and betting Joker.

[@Datboidabio9]

Same I'm betting on joker

[@xboxclown8922]

Here's a rather interesting view on this. We do know Stands maintain their powers including inside some stand's reality warping powers. We also know a handful of them can work within an multiverse like Funny Valentine. Therefore Giorno always has his Stand regardless of which plain of existence he's in. The same can't be said for Joker whose personas only exist in a particular world. There's also the believing enough to make weird things happens factor. It's questionable if Joker could believe hard enough to allow himself and his personas becoming capable of hurting Gold Experience Requiem. Another factor is well it's power exists outside the usual reality set up. Plus possibly having incalculable speed along with scaling from other Joestars. Not to mention, Giorno could alter some stuff Joker could use against him through altering it with his powers. Joker may scale higher in that world with personas. We could also argue Giorno got higher stats outside that world too. Giorno also survived a big variety of abilities in his story. There's no question he's going to figure a way to win this fight. This is a rather unique concept for a fight to the death. Giorno's Stand can easily nope many things as well.

[@Unpopular_opinion-c3b]

1. Giorno doesn't have incalculable speed. 2. Giorno doesn't survive stuff like what joker can do. 3. Joker scales to at least universal. Giorno doesn't. Not even close. 4. He only survived because those abilities weren't that great. 5. Joker resisted reality warping and fate manipulation. Basically stuff GER does. Saying he can just "nope" everything away is a no limits fallacy 6. Joker has immeasurable speed scaling AT LEAST.

[@plimepf9493]

That's a very interesting take on it. I think they will most likely scale Joker way higher, and I'm sure he does have something fun that can play around with GER and possibly get through it, I'm just not sure what that specific thing could be.

[@plimepf9493]

​@TheVeryFirstYapper i do agree with the immeasurable speed feat for Joker and that his stats are much higher, but i don't think there's any proof to show GER only survived because Diavolo was weak. It's just complicated because jojo isn't specific on what things can actually do. That's why the speed feats are so silly to me. GER being listed to have zero speed needs more context. Sure he can resist time altering abilities (especially if they include all star battle r scaling, which changes certain things about this debate but has questionable cannonicity), but who knows how that stacks up to Jokers speed. I can easily see Joker taking this, I just want to hear them find a specific way around GER if that's the case (sorry for hitting you with a wall of text, I just talk too much)

[@xboxclown8922]

@@plimepf9493 Ultimately stats has little importance. Now one of them getting around reality warping powers that's going to decide who wins this fight. Therefore, it doesn't matter whose stomping with stats. If they can't even win due to such a factor preventing them from winning in the first place. Bias or not, I do think Giorno could figure a way around his powers to win. Not to mention some Stands aren't even controlled by their users, they got their own will. Which Golden Experience Requiem plays into that. It's even possible Giorno wouldn't even know what's going on. There's also this to consider as well. Giorno's Stand might not be able to deliver that death loop to Joker. But as long his Stand kept returning anything back to zero, this fight could go on eternity. In a similar matter to Goku Black vs Reverse-Flash over time paradox issue. Giorno is quite a strategist himself out smarting some of his smarter enemies. Yes there's the problem of Golden Experience Requiem used once very late into Part 5 matter. Which forces some to come off with theories for versus debates. Joker may have a lot more personas than Giorno with his one Stand. I still would fear Golden Experience Requiem more. From my understanding Joker could force gods or beings considered as such into fates they usually avoid altogether. But how is he going to do that against Giorno's Stand? Especially if they can prove it's powers goes beyond reality to a degree Joker can't counter it. Not only that, this is more of a bizarre game of wits than a direct fight. Eventually one of them going to figure a way to beat the other. The big issue being how broken their powers truly are at their core. Which also exactly why you shouldn't call it a stomp. A stomp would apply one destroying the other in a fight. However in this rare situation neither can flat out win. Until one of them figures a loop hole or even a small flaw within the other person's powers to win. This is also the fight actually surprisingly balanced despite one having much higher stats by default. There's a lot of thought that goes into a surprisingly complex fight like this. I felt Joker going to do what he can to delay the inevitable. In this case not being able to escape the death loop fate. Of course I also could be very wrong with Joker winning this fight instead you never know.

[@plimepf9493]

​@@xboxclown8922this is an battle that i think everyone should go into with an open mind. When things are up to interpretation like GER, many people come off with different impressions on how that particular ability works. I'm fine if either of them win, I like persona and jojo's pretty equally, I just think Giorno wins because of how I see GER (plus i think he could just age Joker to death if he could touch him)

[@flaremawile726]

I personally think Joker wins, the gap of power between him and Giorno is just too much and it’s questionable of GER’s power could even hit Joker considering how faster Joker is in comparison.

[@plimepf9493]

@flaremawile726 i do mostly agree. My problem just comes from how they see GER. It's possible they'll say that GER is faster just from being immune to time altering effects. But if Joker gets passed GER, than it's no contest who wins.

[@flaremawile726]

@@plimepf9493 It also depends of what you consider canon in the Persona series as well as if you scale the Persona 5 cast to the other cast like p3 and p4. For instance, P3 persona users have time resistance, since Shadows are basically the reason why the Dark Hour exist, and Personas as implied in the game, are the controlled version of a Shadow. In a official Persona 3 Book, stated that Persona 3 Persona Users, Basically have resistance to time. And if you argue that the other Persona Users from other games are scalable to Persona 3 Persona Users because of the Persona q games, it pretty much means that characters that can manipulate time like Jotaro or Dio, won’t really work againts Persona Users. But thats if you Scale the Phantom Thieves to the Persona 3 cast. And that Book hasn’t been contradicted yet.

[@plimepf9493]

@flaremawile726 i think the scaling does make sense, although I did completely skip over Persona Q2 when doing my research on the matchup. I thought since it's technically a dream, that the feats may not be usable. I honestly don't know enough about it to know for sure though. I love your logic though

[@flaremawile726]

@@plimepf9493 Thanks man. To be Fair, at least Joker vs Giorno os closer than Either Yu vs Josuke and Adachi vs Kira. ‘Cause, nah, bro. Yu and Adachi are far more broken than Either Josuke and Kira.

[@flaremawile726]

@@plimepf9493 Now that I think about it, they have used some manga panels in Mitsuru’s analisis in Mitsuru vs Weiss if I remember correctly

[@Cynicalfandom]

For Me, I think Joker Wins. People honestly forget that some of his persona can make others forget their actions. The question is will GER revert that or will it be late to revert it?

[@plimepf9493]

@@Cynicalfandom that's the main issue with this debate. What is the speed of GER? What does it mean to have zero speed? I think that question determines the debate

[@Cynicalfandom]

GER being Zero Speed is up to Interpretation. Joker has better stats and hax again, What will stop Joker from just using Makajam on GER? Joker's Speed is Immeasurable because he can Dodge attacks from Thor, who was stated to be above The Expanse, a place that transcends time. Stephen states that the Expanse is Past, Present, and future, making Joker above GER. GER's only ability that will fuck up Joker is RtZ, but that won't matter since Joker, with his Willpower alone made sure he and the Phantom thieves survive being erased. Jojo has inconsistent Scaling when persona/SMT has consistent Scaling.

[@plimepf9493]

@@Cynicalfandom Jojo's is way too inconsistent. One of Jojo's data books says that the death loop requires Joker to kill someone in order to activate it... even though he clearly wasn't shown killing diavolo. And the question is how someone gets around GER, nothings stopping Joker from using busted moves per se, but I think that GER has never had a consistent way to combat its abilities, meaning that so much is up to interpretation on their end. I also don't think that Joker saving everyone from being erased and Giorno's RtZ are comparable, but they could easily argue that it's the case. I can see this going in Jokers favor, I just think GER throws a wrench into a lot of things Joker does. Or if Joker can resist return to zero, than it's a wash and Giorno is so screwed.

[@limptoast]

@@plimepf9493 problem being is that he scales about Tusk Act 4 and D4C LT LT is an infinite transdimensional barrier that has infinite timelines, worlds, and can bypass fate. Tusl act 4 opened it like a dorito bag and shot bullets that could effect valentine in every alternate timeline. Metas actually did a great job explaning how OP GER is. kzbin.info/www/bejne/rpmoZJiwrLx7g6M

[@q7ake60]

@@limptoastI think the problem with this is that tusk act 4 could do this based off of the infinite spin which, ger doesn’t have so you can’t really give tusk act 4s feats to ger

[@Xx-jumpshot_edits]

now im seeing people saying giorno wins back then alot of people say joker wins

[@pablogarcia6188]

as a big persona fan I think giorno wins this if ger is able to have complete control of souls or a persons will

[@plimepf9493]

@@pablogarcia6188 I'm not sure if I'd say he has complete control of someone's soul, he can just bend reality to do certain things and create life / age life by imbuing it with his energy. It's also unknown if he can bend Jokers will, although I'd go with yes personally.

[@pablogarcia6188]

@@plimepf9493 depends on how you intrepite GER. Its stated to revert the willpower to 0. a theme in part 5 is how willpower is tied to the soul. charoit requim also had control over souls and that was a incomplete bezerker requim GER is a complete requim. I can see the argument of death battle giving jojo the W by saying he has complete control over the soul and can just remove his persona

[@plimepf9493]

@@pablogarcia6188 hmmmm I came see that. That might be why we see diavolo in a death loop even though we don't see him die.

[@pablogarcia6188]

@@plimepf9493 its like the only wincon ive seen for giorno and what i personally predit will be the outcome

[@floridagator252]

​​​@@pablogarcia6188given just what Joker and wild cards in general are by personas lore. I don't think you *can* manipulate that man's will. At least to that extent. Giorno has his fair share of win cons but I don't think that's one of them. I could be wrong sure but I'm pretty sure it's gonna come down to other versions of GERs powerset. Like It could be one of his 49 winning possibilities perhaps but. I dunno. Gives me a headache thinking about that.

[@cjmarugg2340]

I have Joker with complete compendium and satanael he should have more then enough speed to win

[@plimepf9493]

@cjmarugg2340 there's no doubt that Joker has plenty enough speed, but it's the question of how they interpret GER's zero speed. However they determine that fact, will determine the fight IMO.

[@cjmarugg2340]

@plimepf9493 imo 0 speed will probably be infinite speed cuz imo that's more realistic imo at least

[@plimepf9493]

@cjmarugg2340 you can interpret it in different ways. Now I'm more in the opinion that it just means time related abilities will have no effect, like how GER could still move in skipped time. Buttttt I can see people also saying that it's infinite too. Now I don't think Giorno or GER is faster than Joker, that just wouldn't make sense to me. But there is a case that Joker couldn't really do much to Giorno based on return to 0 and his 0 speed

[@cjmarugg2340]

@@plimepf9493 understandable. But we will have to wait to see what DB interprets

[@plimepf9493]

@@cjmarugg2340 tomorrow's the day. I hope you're as excited as I am!

[@KnowledgeFoundation14363]

Giorno probably loses. He doesn't have impressive speed. Moving at erased time isn't imessurable or inaccessible, because even characters like Buccearati have shown to move in it. It still exists and people still move in it, they just don't remember their actions in it. In Diavolo's future that he never reaches it shows GER getting impaled by Diavolo's fist, meaning he probably is building level in stats or less. Plus him having none in his stats means nothing, specially since the Requiem arrow doesn't give you infinite power, it just gives you an ability to overcome the specific challenge that you are up against, and everyone else who got the arrow didn't have their stands amped to infinity or imesurable stats.

[@plimepf9493]

@sonicchannel1574 to be fair i do agree that Giorno is stats stomped really hard, my main argument is how would Joker land an attack if everything is nulled (also taking into account what happens in eyes over heaven, which has an argued cannonocity). I'm sure there's something Joker could do to get past it, but I couldn't find specifics. And I don't find him defying fate to be comparable, since like you said, giorno has done the same thing before. It's more about the reversal and dimension hopping of GER than it is about his specific stats

[@KnowledgeFoundation14363]

@@plimepf9493 GER cannot reverse actions that are passive. He couldn't revert Made in Heaven, plus he can lnly revert it when he gets the requiem arrow. So if the fight begins with him without GER (which should be the case in Death Battle), he will have to revert to a point in time where Joker could be throwing an attack or even launching a big explosion at him, and the only option that he will have will be to reverse it forever or he dies. Eventually he will get tired and he will accept that he will get killed by Joker. GER is just time travel anyways, just in a more complicated manner. Anyone that has decent resistance to time hax could bypass it

[@plimepf9493]

​@sonicchannel1574 i don't know if I agree with some points. The battle deff shouldn't start with him having GER, but to say he would only throw it out when he's about to get attacked is. GER I'm pretty sure isn't stated to be a time travel, the more accepted explanation is that he's changing to a reality where the attacks never happened (the same way death loop doesn't alter the time of the opponent to keep killing him). Now i am not sure if he can't reverse actions that are passive, that's a gap in my knowledge. Again jojo's can be hard to interpretation so I'm not exactly saying you are wrong, but I think there are things that will be up to interpretation.

[@KnowledgeFoundation14363]

@@plimepf9493 Allright. But what I mean by time travel is that GER resets everything to zero by going back to an original point in time. It is kind of like time travel in a way, similar to groundhog day, where everytime the main character in the movie died or the day ended, he had his actions reseted and back to 0 in the same place over and over. GER kind of does that but faster and automatically.

[@plimepf9493]

@sonicchannel1574 okay I see what you mean. I do agree with that, and I don't necessarily agree with Joker maybe having a way around it from his resistances, I just can't find specifically what would change my mind.

[@zachspool]

Giorno should win imo. People usually tend to underestimate Giorno so bad that it almost hurts. I’m a huge fan of both characters and I believe Giorno wins via age manipulation bypassing durability, GER being able to match and possibly surpass Joker in speed and GER’s Hax potency being more than powerful enough to handle someone on Jokers caliber. Also while there are many arguments for Joker getting past GER, basically none of them work without a massive amount of benefit of the doubt. Giorno FTW 🙌

[@q7ake60]

Realistically you really cant get giorno to immeasurable speed, and unless you ignore jokers fate manipulation and resistance and his almighty attacks bypassing all defenses I think Joker wins

[@zachspool]

@@q7ake60 GET should get infinite speed at the very least. And my belief in Giorno winning takes into full account of Jokers relationship with fate and almighty attacks. Though almighty attacks do not get past all defenses. That’s a no limits fallacy. It bypasses barriers. Other characters with similar abilities to GER could counter Almighty abilities like at the final boss of Q2

[@Wipplecurterr]

Do not mind my profile picture, I will be as mostly unbiased as I can. I have not played all of Persona 5, but in Royal I got to the second boss. Now other than Golden Experience Requiem there is one big move in Giorno's moveset and that is the Enhanced Sensory Acceleration power he has. Now I would give Golden Experience a b in speed since there is no real stats for it. (If it was in the anime I still don't count this because some of the stand stats are inaccurate in the anime.) Now a b is no a, which is almost light speed, but a b is around mach 400,000 or more. I've heard from some sources that Joker is omnipresent in speed??? (doesn't even make sense to be 'omnipresent' in speed) But even then Giorno is a genius, even if he can't catch him he could trap him with a root or something. Giorno could immediately react by using the sensory overdrive punch (don't know if he has a move to come back from this) and barrage him. Buccirati said it himself. "A few punches in this state and the shock from the pain will kill me no doubt!" (Something like this) So since it's a death battle I'm sure they will have no problem with Giorno barraging Joker and winning, unless he has some way to not die from shock. But Death Battle would probably not go this route because everyone doesn't wanna see Joker get trapped by some plants and die in a minute, they want to see G.E.R and Arsen, but if I missed something on Jokers side or you have a case of how Joker could defend himself go ahead and comment it, just don't be rude about it.

[@plimepf9493]

@Kavedig everyone's been pretty respectful here so far. I think it would be cool to see the Persona Defend Joker while he's in his enhanced senses state, seeing as unlike stands, Personas seem to be a bit more on the independent side. Now I'm not sure if that's how they'll see personas, that's just personally what I think will happen. He'd just need to catch Joker to do so, which will be hard.

[@pauliussimanskas6331]

Iam very intrested in seeing this fight because I have zero idea what Joker can do yet.

[@Solohunter6]

Joker can just hypnosis or put Giorno to sleep. Joker FTW!

[@mikasaackerman88]

ger win thou

[@bizarreone2058]

Giogio is actually MCB - Small Town, VSbattle wiki has jojo low for no reason

[@plimepf9493]

Yeah I typically don't use vs. Battle wiki for my stats, but I'm reallyyyyy bad at doing the math for that kind of stuff. I was looking for any community posts discussing giorno and couldn't find anything reliable

[@KadriIslami-pc8xu]

It was a nice video,but i think you forgot about giorno resetting not only his opponents attacks but also their will so joker would forget about ever wanting to attack giorno.but I really enjoy the effort of the video

[@plimepf9493]

I didn't use the word will, but i essentially said that he can reset any action. I pretty much just assumed that people would get that it would mean that Joker may not remember his actions, even if I believe diavolo did? I could be wrong there. But it is good insight, I should have been more specific there.

[@ultimax10doesgaming48]

Joker's will is literally unshakable. Even the gods in his verse have tried and failed to mess with it. Even other gods in the spinoffs have tried to erase the mind of a weaker persona user for weeks and that failed too.

[@plimepf9493]

@ultimax10doesgaming48 honestly I don't think Giorno will be able to shake Jokers will, I think it'll be a case of his actions being tampered with by getting erased, not his will per se.

[@Jedda678]

We know DB will allow Giorno to access GER, but realistically Joker wins. GER is a transformation Giorno needs the arrow to trigger it. It also takes a little time for the metamorphosis. Joker realistically can kill Giorno in this time, but also Giorno as much of a pain tolerance as he has, he's probably the frailest Jojo in the main 6 part series. He also doesn't have Joker's reaction times, durability, or his power. Just one broken ability and Joker has been able to kill a god-like being and control the manifestations of gods. Joker is looking like the victor just out the box.

[@plimepf9493]

@@Jedda678 I'm actually not certain if Joker needs to restab Gold Experience in order to trigger GER, from my understanding once they achieve requiem, they stay in requiem like polnareff. I will say though that the gap in stats is why I'm not a huge fan of this matchup. If GER doesn't work on Joker, than Joker wouldn't need any personas to win. If it does work on Joker, than I'm not sure, even with Jokers higher scaling how he gets past GER. Not to say he definitely can't though, I'm just not sure how specifically he would do it.

[@TierZEMO]

i want joker to win bc i mained him in smash lol, also i dont like jojo fans

[@plimepf9493]

Haha hey now I'm a jojo's fan. There's always going to be toxic people in many fanbases. But he is pretty Goated in Smash though

[@agarcia6770]

I’m a big fan of both series