Sacred Art in Secular Terms

[@PaulVanderKlay]

This is really cool Jonathan. Thanks for this.

[@SkyJensen]

His speaking gets me so excited some times! You two are the best!

[@SkyJensen]

@PaulVanderKlay @JonathanPageau please give us a book list! How can we learn more about this religious resacralization in other countries? How can we help/travel?

[@drewroyster3046]

The one person who thumbed down is a contemporary artist

[@MatthiasPendragon]

I noticed Jesus holding the child in that icon, and had no idea what it meant. When I found out that it was the soul of Mary, and that it mirrored the image on the Eastern wall, I nearly started to cry, and I had no idea why. It was this strange, 100% instinctual response. I've been trying to work out the reasons ever since, but kept hitting a wall. I knew the placements were important, that the architecture was massively important, but none of it really explained the feeling I had. "It's not just a concept, it's really entering into this metaphysical structure." I think that line sums up what was happening. Thank you for explaining this. Your videos are helping my spiritual life immensely as I try to find my way.

[@JonathanPageau]

Thanks for that.

[@mercophel]

parts of your talk here created the same emotion in me that the original poster of this comment talked about. You're doing great stuff, Mr. Pageau.

[@gmjsimmons]

This might be the most important talk you have given. It gives me a ground zero for the meaning of symbolism. This is a generous gift. Thank you, brother.

[@RogerTheil]

Full disclosure, I'm a pagan with no particular fondness or animosity towards Christianity, but ever since finding your channel, I've LOVED Orthodox iconography and symbology. I'm one of those who found you through the other JP and I found him while researching symbolism. The way both of you understand and teach symbolism reminds me of what the people of Antiquity would call truly inspired. The Orthodox myths and parables you teach remind me SO much of old pagan myths and parables. That is to say they are immeasurably rich in their own context, and while simple to digest, they tell profound truths about life, humanity, and the nature of the divine. I'm becoming a big fan, and needless to say, I've been eagerly awaiting this talk and will be eagerly awaiting your future content as well. Also, it's fantastic to see new Orthodox iconography and imagery being created now in so many places. I have also heard that Poland has been constructing cathedrals that rival medieval cathedrals of old in scale and beauty. With such interest growing in symbolism as it has been lately, I feel the time is ripening and the world is craving such things again. Perhaps this will lead to a revival in true spirituality, and I'm very excited to be here to watch it unfold. Thank you for your work, and I'm excited to see what future content you will come up with for this channel. Cheers!

[@JonathanPageau]

Thanks for your wonderful comment. Happy I am helping you to rethink traditional Christian imagery.

[@yeaown8139]

My favorite talk of you thus far. Gave me goosebumps when you talked about giving your carving to the bishop. About how one uses the art to "enter the metaphysical structure". Being a former art student disillusioned by the immense nihilism and vapid meaninglessness of modern art myself, I've come to pretty much the same view of art as you have.

[@chelseyk1252]

I listen to podcasts and lectures about art, history, and religion pretty often; this is probably the best presentation on art that I’ve seen in a while. Very thought provoking.

[@KIDWITDEGUN]

I used to do graffity my youth. Then I engraved company logos on chocolate during my job in a graphic agency. Now I watch this. Life is interesting.

[@balauruldeaur1271]

Thank you Jonathan for posting this, I am a Romanian artist making the transition into sacred art, you are doing so much for so many people.

[@mamusias298]

Thank you Johnathan for this lecture! I’m happy I “discovered” you through JBP. I’m learning so much by listening to you (and your brother) and I am discovering my faiths again. Please keep up with your lectures & your work!

[@zanderboy27]

Arriving here through your discussion with Dr Peterson about symbolic nature of frogs. The synchronicity of things that you described left me a little gob smacked. Stunning art for seemingly biblical times... delicate, balanced and beautiful carvings.

[@fryingwiththeantidote2486]

"Symbolism Happens" should be on a shirt

[@paulet990]

HallMonitor how about IkonDoIt.

[@carlotapuig]

One of the best videos I've ever seen on utube. Thank you J. Pageau. I just hope this channel doesn't get affected by the most recent utube wave of radical censorship

[@danielfrench9542]

This is brilliant and veryyyyy inspiring. I'm starting an MPhil on medieval cosmology and your lecturers are really food for thought. Thank you so so much Jonathan.

[@dysonmuller5376]

Hey Jonathan. I am a young, recent convert to Orthodoxy. I go to a small church (Holy Apostles, beltsville) which was blessed with a recent visit by Andrew Gould, who is offering to help us move from the office building where we currently have our services, into a chapel which was originally a catholic church. My parish obtained the chapel well before my conversion. Aside from this, I was drawn into iconography, particularly wood carving, during my conversion. I'm also very interested in stone carving, and plain painted iconography. I have to thank you for providing an inspiration to keep going with iconography. Your whole life story is a form of an encouragement.

[@JoojieXD]

Oh man, I could quote this entire speech. This is filled with so much truth and so well spoken!

[@kbeetles]

An inspired and inspirational talk. With the pictures of some fantastic artwork - this is a gem! Thank you!

[@jonathannadeau6218]

Is that Jordan Peterson appearing in the lower left at 17:14 ?

[@Paradox-dy3ve]

Lol yes it is :D

[@jonathannadeau6218]

Ok I watched the video till the end and got my answer.

[@carlotapuig]

Yes, Jordan came in for dominance hierarching the room

[@Xeronimo74]

when will Peterson finally admit that he's a Christian?

[@Xeronimo74]

an Orthodox Christian, that is.

[@christianguertin5317]

Jonathan you are a voice calling out in the wilderness. This talk was revelatory and hopeful. May your work bear abundant fruit. Thankyou

[@jamieyoung9392]

Jonathan, you need to talk to Roger Scruton. I think you would have a great deal to talk about.

[@johnneumann8878]

Bishop Barron talks about him when he discusses the "Evangelical Power of Aesthetics". The Good, the True and the Beautiful [Aesthetic] can all function in this process of drawing one into the Church. I will have to see if the _Sacred Space in Secular Terms_ comments also mention aesthetics & Scruton.

[@CharlesKincaid]

I’ve been reading a lot of Scruton and watching a lot of Pageau. I would love to see them in a dialogue.

[@skadiwarrior2053]

@@johnneumann8878 Scruton made a wonderful video called Why Beauty Matters. It's available on you tube.

[@roqueviera4730]

😔✝️

[@nikob381]

So cool to hear that you worked with Andrew Gould! His architecture and the theology behind it is amazing.

[@battleowl3517]

Great art and great video as usual Jonathan! Keep up the good work, your talks on symbolism especially are really inspiring for me. Greetings from Greece!

[@davidg4239]

Jonathan, enlightening and encouraging! Your videos have been really helpful to me as an artist and a christian feeling very alienated within the contemporary art world. There is such a strict unspoken code of what is permissible to make art about. It seems like fragmentation, disfiguration and inversion (not to mention irony) are the cardinal virtues. that combined with a mercantile ego obsession with building a personal brand. There is no room for cohesion or fidelity. Your videos and listening to Dr Petersons lectures has helped me to break free of the desire to fit into the system, but am still searching for a meaningful approach to content and process in the making of art (I cant see myself making liturgical art at this stage!)

[@Paradox-dy3ve]

Those paintings you showed at the beginning of the presentation were absolutely gorgeous! Wonderful speech! I'll have to look into these artists some more. By the way, I don't know if you've ever seen the film "Akira", but I think it would be an excellent piece for you to do a symbolic analysis of. It's a second coming story as far as I can tell. However, I'd love your thoughts on the matter.

[@janbess909]

Michael Bamford oh yes, Akira would be great :)

[@Paradox-dy3ve]

It's a very well told "second-coming" story, right?! Akira is a messianic figure (i.e. he came before to set the world into order, and is returning for a second time), Tetsuo is an anti-christ figure (he precedes the second coming of the messiah and is mistaken for him, if you remember the cult-like Akira worshipers mistake Tetsuo for him and parade the streets in support of him), and the city of Neo Tokyo is a microcosm of the contemporary mythological landscape. I have always found it interesting that cyber-punk stories seem to share the motif of the miracle child. The child always tends to be psychic, as well. "Looper" has a child psychic who the protagonist travels backwards in time to try and prevent from becoming a world changing dictator (a strange play on the 'child of destiny' motif), and the new Blade Runner film also has a miracle child (the child born of artificial parents). And the psychics in "Akira" are all in the form of children (though they're bodies are old, with the exception of Akira). I really think these stories have some very interesting symbols that are being overlooked by many.

[@gmjsimmons]

This is amazingly encouraging, even in our up-side-down culture.

[@cosmicnomad8575]

Thanks so much for the talk! I’ve never been real artistic and have been oriented towards math and science more but watching you has gotten me to appreciate art much more and especially Traditional Christian Art. God bless!

[@KnitMyWayHome]

A thrill to watch. Truly. Thank you for sharing.

[@CorySee]

Wow. Great video! Thank you. I would love to see a few videos of you doing your work. Woodwork and carving are extremely satisfying to watch for some reason.

[@bizantura1091]

Thank you, this video uplifts my spirit. I did not know of this revival in a small segment of art and music but it warms my heart. I am sick and tired of the surrounding nihilistic ugliness. It brings back a much-needed glimmer of hope to humankind.

[@NathanMeffert]

Great talk, Jonathan! Nice to hear your story in a bit more detail. Also, very strong analysis of the state of modern art. Thanks.

[@galleryguide9913]

It is my opinion that the traditional liturgical arts much like tribal and ethnic arts arise out of systems where art is not primarily intended for gallery settings. Its function is firmly rooted in the communities where they are housed and hold meaning which those communities can quite accurately read. Much of contemporary art is overwhelmingly, some might say, pathologically self- referential to the point of being narcissistic. The point does not appear to be to convey meaning, rather to represent whatever self-centered notion the artist has at that moment and the view's task is to validate that idea by articulating whatever that might be. The traditional artistic enterprise is rooted in community and giving that community a way of extracting metaphysical meaning in a very concrete and practical way. The contemporary art scene seem to be based on novelty, shock value and the monetary gain that can be had in the world of the art market. It will be interesting to see what ripple affects the Covind 19 crisis might have as the planet begins to re-evaluate the value and meaning of life as it had once been.

[@eucalyptblaze]

Thanks for the video, Jonathan! As a young artist who went to art school, your words really resonated with me. Btw, I’d love to see you do a video on Tarkovsky’s Andrei Rublev one day...

[@grimlisonofgroin7103]

Was that "present company excluded" remark at 29:15 referencing Peterson?

[@yukey2587]

Wow! I really appreciated that message. It put into words something that I have felt for a long time.

[@dscordobab]

Thank you so much for this brilliant talk!

[@margaretshorr3641]

Wonderful. I learn so much from listening to you. Your work is inspiring and gives me much optimism about our future. Thank you.

[@catleonard3107]

Thank you, thank you, thank you! Jonathan Pageau for such interesting talks. These have been so wondrous for me because I'm an artist too, and I teach art, and for the past few years I've been dabbling in Christian art and lately I've started a series of Catholic clergy portraits - so for me you are an inspiration on more than one level. I'm wondering if you'd consider looking into a subject that I don't think you've covered yet, and explore the symbolism of - The Muse? The modern Muse is also inverted (do you think?), so instead of the artist taking on a muse and making art for/about/inspired by them, the artist is the muse himself to the masses, - I've coined them "Mewes", and are followed and copied/replicated en mass. kind regards, Cat.

[@texcatlipocajunior144]

This talk sent me flying back on a deju vu to minimalist art school in the 70s. The phrase "defended with unreadable theory" pulled the trigger.

[@KIDWITDEGUN]

So you're saying we should abolish all modern culture and become priests?

[@TheJulianrafael99]

i dont know what video you watched, but, he said none of those things

[@TheJulianrafael99]

hahaha oh shit just woke up forgot about cathy newman shit.

[@KIDWITDEGUN]

.😉

[@adomalyon1]

Yes, my son, yes...:)

[@fantasyarch]

It was with Channel 4 but same difference. I laughed a lot with this comment and the one above :P

[@TeaParty4Thugs]

6:25 The image by Nikola Sarić is so intense. Look up Matthew Ayairga for some background info.

[@64kdawg]

Amazing, thanks for sharing your story. I love your art it is truly beautiful.

[@crogers06360]

I'm awestruck by your work, completely floored. Amazing.

[@benjaminanderson-agimuk9328]

Can you do a commentary on the films of Andrei Tarkovsky?

[@filipbook5605]

That was great Jonathan, makes me interested in my own church and its symbols.

[@sharoncbechtold9608]

Thank you! Beautiful explanation.

[@paoloromolini]

An amazing talk!

[@coreyp9951]

Day by day I feel like the world is slipping one more little step into Hell. Then I watch one of your lectures and am convinced (at least for short while) that the opposite is actually true. Thank you for the hope, sir.

[@orvh5223]

Amazing ! The secular world is ignorant and have no idea ! Thanks for sharing this insight.

[@fragwagon]

Wonderful. Jonathan I'm curious have you seen the work of Neilson Carlin? His painting of St. Gianna Molla really floored me.

[@lisaonthemargins]

I really liked this!

[@ibelieve3111]

Thanks

[@shhteve]

JBP spotted @ 17:16

[@fraukatze3856]

Great vid. Thanks. So much to think about.

[@sealevelbear]

Thank you ❤️

[@DrgOctavian]

I`m searching fsome icons that I would like to print and frame for my home. Can you please post a link to a collection of icons in a good resolution... or something like this. That would be so great. Thank you in advance and God bless.

[@Atrahasis7]

Art is still somewhat alive in music and and in vibrant new stuff like videogames, actually there is a segment of videogames that is very symbolic, its just not still used to its full potential.

[@GameFunHQ]

So what you are saying is that we should all go back to the middle ages?

[@thatguys4341]

*YES*

[@existenz7496]

Interesting talk. I’d argue that all art when practised and/or experienced genuinely is a sacred or spiritual undertaking. “Sacred Art” is a tautology from such a perspective. Whether or not it’s executed in the form of representational iconography or through the more transcendent (Rothko) use of abstract expressionism seems less relevant in terms of the messages expressed and contained in the art. A good example of the latter and of a modernist/contemporary artist who uses religious and mythological symbolism is the work of Anselm Kiefer. Andy Warhol’s use of religious iconography is also an interesting case (contrary to his crafted public image Warhol was a devout Catholic in his private life) to juxtapose against the symbolism of religious iconography and art. Secular Art in Sacred Terms perhaps. On the question of “art” vs “craft” which the talk also seems to touch on, I’d say that all great art involves degrees of craft but not all great craft involves art.

[@adamshellard6935]

This was amazing!

[@PraetorClaudius]

I've always thought with Art Nouveau, there was a forced attempt to create a new kind of icon, which led to (imo) the atrocities known as the Art Nouveau sphinxes, and the slow change of hard lines to impressionism and art in the fourth dimension (some block of cheese that molds as people watch it, or something) overcame the rich two dimensional world of iconography. What do you think about the comic book form? There seems to be some resemblance between the art of medieval mss and "high brow" graphic art.

[@Cristi_21]

Where is that mosaic at 37:08 from?

[@Jason-ji4sy]

This is amazing.

[@evabaloghova8372]

I would like your advice where I should start if I want to study iconography...

[@Ciaurrix]

I'm not so sure that the Renaissance was about (or at least ONLY about) nostalgia for antiquity, but rather the very things you're describing motivate you to explore or re-discover medieval sacred art, it's an attempt to understand the dimensionality of this ancient pre-christian worldview, to understand it's "complex symbol systems" as it were. At the end of the day we probably can't say for sure without asking someone from the Renaissance what their intentions were (lol). Anyway this video is one of my favs from you. cheers.

[@patplo2902]

Art is reformulating itself online on deviantart.com and artstation.com. It's interesting that the same applies to iconography.

[@annahatke2455]

I have been enjoying your you tube channel for a while and listen/watch while I make dinner whenever you post something. I homeschool my five daughters in the morning so I look forward to listening to something from the outside world to inspire and keep my mind learning in the evening. Thanks for all you do. I am curious if you have ever read The Meditations on the Tarot: A Journey into Christian Hermeticim.--It's a very little known book--though oddly loved by Hans Urs Von Batlthazaar, that uses the symbols in the medieval tarot cards as a series of spiritual exercises and explores their Christian roots. While the author has some problematic theology--it is a fascinating exploration of medieval symbolism and traces its roots back to ancient hebrew/ and egygptian sources as well. Its one of the most fascinating books I have ever read and given your love of symbolism I thought you might find it interesting. Peace. Anna Hatke

[@Midaiganes888]

I'm really glad for the revival. It's about time.

[@diannalaubenberg7532]

Inspiring!

[@gattuccina]

thank you from Moscow =)

[@JoeWhettam]

Hey Jonathan, any suggestions in where to look for more about this in the world of music?

[@Xanaseb]

I would like to give a go, in absence of Jonathan! I have been thinking a bit about this. I think it's very difficult to find an exact equivalent in music, because it fundamentally is a different medium, with a different set of effects. But, underneath it all, it has similar purposes to Sacred Art. So, the task is to try and rediscover the 'metaphysical lens' of older periods of music, and re-create it in the modern day. The Historically Informed Practice (HIP) and period-instrument movements have helped with this, but in the end it's more than just the instruments and the techniques. There definitely was a deep symbolic language in way music was crafted, performed and used in the past. The best places to look for symbolism in music?: Medieval, Renaissance and Baroque Sacred music. In these periods, in various ways, they achieved a sort of Iconography of Music. In the Western polyphonic / contrapuntal & homophonic tradition, each musical form, phrase, chordal change, interweave together so as to reflect the symbolism in the texts. It nowadays is not understood very well by most who listen to it, because although the Musicologists (though thankfully not too many) have written on it in great insightful ways, their academic analysis generally requires a level of music-theoretical understanding. But, Early Music is more and more appreciated today. It still resonates with us (literally!), and even more so when you realise the underlying symbolic language. It needs a lot of listening, study and rediscovery, in my opinion. But it's well worth it. Listen to the great sacred music composers, and you'll start to notice familiar elements. Read musicologists who write about them to help you hear these patterns.

[@JoeWhettam]

Xanaseb Thank you! I had my suspicions about this but you've helped make the way clear.

[@Xanaseb]

Joseph Whettam no problem. There seems to be a gap in the KZbin video market for a Pageau-style approach to music!

[@justingraff534]

Joseph Whettam You absolutely must check out Arvo Pärt's music. He is a contemporary composer whose music flows from his Orthodox faith. Some have called him a "neo-medievalist". His music and his life's journey are truly remarkable. Here's a link: m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z3KZc5mvnauGjLM Please do tell me what you think!

[@moonflow5133]

I really enjoy your works Jonathan,. Every time I listen to you it informs my artistic practice. I just had a technical question. Did Jesus actually die on a cross? In original Greek, the implement of Jesus death was referred to as xy′lon as a synonym for stau·ros′. This word means “wood,” “timber,” “stake,” or “tree.” I would be extremely grateful for any thoughts from anyone.

[@JonathanPageau]

A cross has more meaning than a stake. It is important to see the relationship with the stake, the tree, but the symbolism of the vertical axis (heaven) connecting with the horizontal (earth) is crucial for understanding Christianity, which is why it is the shape which was retained in the end.

[@moonflow5133]

Side note: This lecture is bloody fantastic. Thank you!

[@boreanknight]

Yes, Orthodox view is that Jesus actually died, descended into hell, purged it and resurrected, thus the whole "victory over death" which is the most importan aspect. Many heresies thought that Jesus never actually died, and it was only an initiation similar to the Odin's hanging on Yggdrasil (gothic christianity for example), but that is not correct accoeding to the Church. P.S. Nevermind, i just realized your question was about the symbolism of the cross. I rushed with the answer, before reading it through. :)

[@moonflow5133]

Thank you for your considered comment. It was more of a technical question. For arguments sake: Jesus died on an upright stake, and not a cross. Thus, the symbolic meaning of the cross is fatally undermined. Meaning must exist within truth.

[@moonflow5133]

Thanks for your reply. It's definitely a technical question though . My point was arguing that he died on an upright stake, and not a cross.

[@MrMilla103]

Jonathon, did you mean what I think you did when you called Camile Paglia a radical feminist lesbian trans activist? Have you not seen her talk with JBP?

[@echinaceapurpurea1234]

Well she is sort of those things, she is a radical, a leftist, a feminist, a lesbian, she has said she'd fit the trans bill even though she hasn't transitioned. She seems to admire drag queens. She's been a radical activist as well. Still she's not what we think of radical trans activists today.

[@claudesigma3784]

God you made me wish I had an artistic fiber in me. The subject is fascinating. But I'm condemned to be on the other side, the side of the ones seeing and appreciating, keep up the good work mate.

[@elzoog]

Have you ever heard of Father Tom Loya?

[@brigidcox2046]

Jon, you are so right. Icon carving is not yours. I sing and people insist on complimenting "my voice." It is God's voice!

[@echinaceapurpurea1234]

The baseball bat in the face moment, were you expecting the bishop to look at the icon and go something like "ah, thanks Jonathan, it's very nice, i like how you did the draping there and the fingers are really nice, it's good that it's this color because it matches the..." or...? You weren't expecting something you did to turn from a piece of carving, a work in process, into an icon immediately?

[@JonathanPageau]

Second mostly.

[@tiagovasc]

33:00

[@jaimemostany123]

What book would you recomend to someone who is interested in symbolism?

[@someguy779]

Damn Hit home man

[@PraetorClaudius]

Dystopian science fiction is the best kind of art we have today. The rotting corpse. This reminded me of Virgil Abloh and his Off-White fashion brand. It is self aware and making fun of the state of art yet still passes off with the price tag of important art.

[@paulet990]

I LOVED IT!!!!

[@Xeronimo74]

The attraction of religious stories and figures is probably not that different from the attraction of stories and figures like Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, etc. Not saying that's a bad thing. People like stories.

[@thebluedan]

Xeronimo74 I think you made a good connection. But in Christianity real life becomes a story, of a history but also a present and a future due to prophecy. In the case of the modern stories you use as an examples, were stories first and now have become a religion and a way of life. Mans life is inherently one of religion. If he doesn’t have one in his history, he makes one up.

[@rhettmelton]

This goes hand-in-hand as one of my favorite talks from you, right alongside 'The Ragtag Heroes of an Upside Down World'. Keep it up Jonathan! Also, I'd like to say that those two talks pair very nicely with Jordan Peterson's "Dragons, Divine Parents, Heroes and Adversaries: A complete cosmology of being", "Tragedy Vs. Evil", and "Slaying the Dragon Within Us" (my 3 favorites from Jordan, after watching almost all of his online videos). Those talks are so solid, and, although this one just came out, I've added it to this group of videos which I religious circumnavigate. Thank you for your work and I look forward for what's to come!

[@rhettmelton]

Also, I would love to hear you expound upon psychedelic fungi and their role in Christianity (and/or other religious traditions).

[@pebblebrookbooks4852]

Do the modern art statues look like stuff from the Hollywood wax museum, or is it just me?

[@ConfusedApe]

Is Jordans talk at that event online?

[@JonathanPageau]

No, I don't think it is going to happen, as you see the video quality is wretched. We had to compensate with massive editing.

[@smwillma]

You make some good points, however I think you diminish them with some bombastic ones. If only you could take your own work out of it, and look for reciprocity and equilibrium in your message of for-and-against.

[@francoisp1403]

"We have to go medieval !" Yes ! In all matters !

[@Xeronimo74]

interesting speech and cool art. reminds me of fan fiction though.

[@PraetorClaudius]

Xeronimo74 Icons have always been fan fiction.

[@romankulchynskyi8764]

Dear Jonathan, could you please have a quick look at my PM in Facebook Messenger. Thanks.

[@TheAutistocrat]

Scared art. Like The Scream.

[@JonathanPageau]

My goodness, thanks for pointing that out fast, so that I could change it.

[@David_A._Ream]

♥️✝️♥️

[@danieljohnson1837]

“When Rage Against the Machine Becomes the Machine”

[@StyzeSoulmaker]

Spooked art

[@stephensmith5982]

Is this what God saw in Sodom and Gomorrah ?

[@user-vw6xp5nl6t]

Scary.

[@MoiLiberty]

Art is the cannery in a civilization’s coal mine. Today, we have entertaining art…it has to be ever shocking to keep us entertained. Ultimately, modern art is meaningless, as in, it means to mean nothing at all in its ever shocking form.

[@Xeronimo74]

I like the art but this is a very ideological speech ... but ok, freedom of speech and stuff ...

[@evgeny9965]

LITURGICAL ART is process art like all process art, ( propint making , pottery etc. ) and it soon loses its novelty for artists after awhile ... most modern ikons are a kind of simulation ... the mistake about this video is the comparison with contemporary art ... whether you like modern art or not, most ikonographers are not able to understand it conceptually and thus will be condemned to recreat historic simulations...