Jordan Peterson and the Counter Enlightenment. Next Book to Demolish the Atheistic Argument

‪@ChrisWillx‬ Jordan Peterson - How To Destroy Your Negative Beliefs (4K) • Jordan Peterson - How ...
‪@JordanBPeterson‬ with ‪@JonathanPageau‬ The Perfect Mode of Being | Jonathan Pageau | EP 156 • The Perfect Mode of Be...
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[@ButterBobBriggs]

That opening clip of the Peterson and Pageau video, that came out in March of 2021, was the occasion of me returning to faith after more than a decade of hostility. It began my journey into the Orthodox Church. To this day, I still don't know what it is about that conversation that had such a big impact on me. Regardless of what it was, I will always be grateful to Pageau and Peterson who Christ used to find this lost sheep. I know they are fallible humans themselves, but I feel an obligation to support their work as much as possible and so long as it doesn't go against Christ, with prayer and other material blessings.

[@williambranch4283]

Faith is like an iceberg. Mostly under water (great sea of being).

[@j.knight9335]

It's important that you reject your schism. Schism separates one from God more than even sexual sins.

[@debz_journey]

Listening to Dr. Peterson’s lectures was fundamental to my return to faith in Christ after decades of deconstructing. I was close to becoming a full-on atheist when God used this man to bring me to my senses. I know he is not a Christian per se, but God is using him none the less.

[@j.knight9335]

@@debz_journey It's important that you become a traditional Catholic, which is the only historical and true form of Christianity. The various Protestant/"Orthodox" sects are heretical and schismatic bodies that are born of the same evil rebellious spirit that embodies the modern left.

[@ButterBobBriggs]

@@j.knight9335 Pachamama

[@Padronfan]

That recent podcast, was absolutely Jordan and Chris at their best

[@I4MWH014M]

Also, thank you pastor Paul for continuing to work on these ideas/concepts/issues as they continue to move throughout the culture/zeitgeist. The Lord has been good to me through you.

[@damiancayer2003]

Amen!

[@sunrhyze]

This is exactly it, and you said it all in two sentences. 👏

[@GRIFFIN1238]

This felt like a very big turning point for Peterson, in many ways. With Orthodox Pageau in one ear and Catholic Tammy in the other, he's really moving. I noticed he integrated at least two major Ian Mcgilchrist talking points into his old talking points - being and becoming, etc. He's also more implicitly relational in his language, phrasing and models.

[@kingelvis7035]

I'm an advocate of the counter reformation, and hence, the counter enlightenment as well. Enjoyable hour and much more than I even expected. Subscribing!

[@ChadTheAlcoholic]

The parts store will generally read what code is setting off your check engine light. Just a helpful tip

[@lkae4]

The idea is a marriage is much more real than a marriage certificate. The idea of marriage can gather people from all over the world, can cost tens of thousands of dollars, can bring joy or heartbreak, life or death, can be the culmination of years or decades of prayer and hope.

[@jimluebke3869]

The vows matter, though, and it's still the traditional vows that work best. It's almost as if they were formed from centuries or millennia of human experience.

[@williambranch4283]

A sacrament.

[@ArcherWarhound]

I think JBP's talk at 28:00 about archetypes and ideals being "more real than real", or "hyperreal" because they exist and persist behind the scenes is the key to helping modern minded people enter into the reenchantment of the counter-enlightment reformation currently gaining speed, and precisely why I recommend to everyone I meet that they read CS Lewis and George MacDonald. The Christian Platonism themes of truth being more real, more solid, of heaven being the "realm (of the ideal forms) from which the shadows fall" into ours are all through MacDonald and Lewis.

[@ShowMeMoviesInc.]

So the ideal of Christ is more real than the physical incarnation of Christ?

[@williambranch4283]

The Power Of Myth. by Joseph Campbell. I am mature because I am re-enchanted. That is where meaning lies.

[@williambranch4283]

@@ShowMeMoviesInc. They aren't separate ... if you are Christian.

[@ButterBobBriggs]

@@williambranch4283 that's right He is both God and man, defined so beautifully and precisely in the second paragraph of the Nicene Creed.

[@ShowMeMoviesInc.]

@@williambranch4283 there’s a hierarchy though, no?

[@BalazsKegl]

Beautiful, thank you Paul, one of your top ten commentaries! The best line is: "better yet _who_ you're bargaining with?" One remark, when Peterson says "you can't orient yourself as a consequence of analyzing facts", and that neuroscientists, psychologists, physiologists of perception figured it out, that's fine, but I know very few AI engineers who even think about this, it is simply assumed that of course you can orient yourself by analyzing facts, and that's what AI will do. And the funny thing is that they mostly agree, those who fear superhuman AI and those who enthusiastically cheer for it. Because if they didn't, the question of fear would not even come up before embodied agential AI appears on the horizon (it has not).

[@music79075]

Can you translate your big brain clmment for my smooth brain?

[@I.scientist.balazskegl]

@@music79075 I asked GPT: Peterson argues that analyzing facts alone isn't enough for orientation, a view shared by neuroscientists and psychologists. However, many AI engineers assume AI can orient itself by just analyzing facts. Interestingly, both AI skeptics and supporters agree on this. Superhuman AI is fearful only if it can orient itself, and it will happen only when agency and embodiment is added to AI. I would add that benevolent, aligned AI, integrated to our world, will also need agency and embodiment, so scary it is, we should do it.

[@I.scientist.balazskegl]

@@music79075 I think you would like my conversation with Mark Vernon: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rGeylnaMjpp0pZI

[@music79075]

@@I.scientist.balazskegl haha ty!

[@themetal]

This might be a weird thing to say, but I've been waiting for a proper counter-enlightenment/post-enlightenment since I was seven.

[@williambranch4283]

Future man teases us.

[@newglof9558]

I remember when I was younger, dumber, and full of.. whatever. I discovered the subreddit "the red pill", a lot of which didn't sit the best with me for reasons I couldn't articulate well at the time. It was deeply upset at secular sexual dynamics, though it wouldn't admit it (at least deeply). And deeply materialistic, which it would admit, though claim it's irrelevant. Tangential to TRP was the "dark enlightenment" which was ultimately more interesting and relevant. Though I didn't know what it had to do with TRP (or even knew what it was about at the time). Years later... here I am. Lol

[@chrisc7265]

"Maaaaaaam! Is it the counter-enlightenment yet?" "Not yet honey" "Maaaaaam! How about post-enlightenment?"

[@myhatmygandhi6217]

Hard to imagine a seven year old knowing about the enlightenment.

[@williambranch4283]

@@myhatmygandhi6217 Some people go by the nickname ... "Babyface" ;-)

[@MrBenbenbenbenny]

The term abstraction is so helpful. What I’ve been following with interest is the different perspectives on the Israel-Hamas war - how two people can view the same circumstances and draw two completely different conclusions. I’ve been coming to view “Wokeness” as an abstraction based largely on the field of social science. On the whole, those we would term woke have abstracted a framework for seeing why people tend to act the way they do. Consider ACE scores (Adverse Childhood Experiences) and how these correlate with negative behaviors in adulthood. They then use this abstraction and apply it to whole groups of people. It then becomes easy to excuse the actions of the oppressed because they have been stripped of agency. They are simply the result of the circumstances around them. Like Plinko chips falling where they may. For those who aren’t woke however, this abstraction leads to what we perceive as damaging conclusions. Excusing horrific actions of others simply because of their environment and past traumas. This can completely undermine our sense of right and wrong and justice. Consider the parents of the one school shooter from a year or two ago who were charged for not raising their child better. All of the sudden in a society largely structured around individualism, collective guilt is being entertained. Abstractions are powerful. And the woke one isn’t without its elements of truth. It needs to be incorporated appropriately into a better and larger worldview.

[@williambranch4283]

Sociology started academically in the late 19th century. Activist from the start, it aimed to reform society along Elite lines. From the beginning, excusing crime and accusing society. Updated Rousseau.

[@lifewasgiventous1614]

"The oppressed", therein lies the assumption, many today are not oppressed other than by their own hands

[@TonyPPX]

Hi Paul. You can definately pin this as a featured video on your channel. Peterson’s perspective on the enlightenment may be his most important contribution to the discourse.

[@whatup6350]

Peterson's hero ( his words ) , Ayaan Hirsi Ali , tells Dutch TV she made up a false story of suffering to gain Dutch asylum status.kzbin.info/www/bejne/nYmqlaJ8eMirnqc

[@KPbaseball131]

Paul this is amazing. Your work on these subjects is flawless and powerful.

[@constantmanifold9493]

An interesting fact about many engineering models is that they are not derived from first principles, but rather estimated from collected data. These models often fail outside of the experimental parameters. I sense something similar going on with modernistic anthropology. The modern model of a person was built on starving, war torn Europeans who were optimistic about scientific solutions. We are now well fed, and more than a little uneasy about technology.

[@williambranch4283]

Even math is semi-empirical, because choice of axioms, contra Kant, are not "a priori".

[@zimzob]

@@williambranch4283that's a good observation - math is often thought of as completely abstract forms in the immaterial world of pure reason, but it has its origins in the empirical study of measurable realities in the technical arts of geometry, engineering, chronography, astronomy, music, etc

[@williambranch4283]

@@zimzob Modern math begs to differ, but that was after 2500 years of development on Pythagoras, which is putting the Euclid before the triangle ;-)

[@SanjuroSan]

*hears Sam Harris, drops popcorn, rummages through drawer and reveals eye patch*

[@williambranch4283]

Mark Lefebvre?

[@makaminsk]

"The bargain is, you make the right sacrifices, and they pay off" ... "If you got the sacrifices right, the future would be paradisal" Karma? Job? Or maybe this only actually works if you frame the sacrifice as one of love, and the cross as paradise.

[@williambranch4283]

So sure reward in this life, only after life.

[@ShowMeMoviesInc.]

I like to poke fun at Jordan Peterson but I highly respect his writing, and I hope it comes out soon

[@jimluebke3869]

"People give themselves to the spirit in manifestational ways" People create (summon) the spirit by establishing the relationships between the things.

[@Threnodist1]

And we also need to avoid thinking that the covenant of sacrifice is mechanistic. This was the truth that shattered Job. We sacrifice to God, not to ensure a "better" future, but to please God. And God, as a being with will, decides in what way to reward that sacrifice. Sometimes that reward is taking everything from you so that you can know God more closely. Job lost everything because he was making proper sacrifices, and in the end he was glad for it.

[@keithhunt5328]

How pathetic. Mighty god wants to be pleased with animal sacrifices. Lol

[@keithhunt5328]

Twisted theist logic

[@lesliecunliffe4450]

The issues touched on in this podcast were systematically explored by Wittgenstein over seventy years ago but nobody seems to understand that.

[@williambranch4283]

"Wittgenstein's Poker" ... did Wittgenstein understand Wittgenstein ;-)

[@Tai182]

Pageau was right when he told Peterson he'd bring back Christianity. Something along that line.

[@Your-Ideology-Base]

Andrew Wilson and Made by Jimbob introduced me to this idea of counter enlightenment. Your commentary on this topic was great, I'm grateful for this video.

[@omarmorillo9959]

Heb 12:11 - For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

[@tmehlhaff]

Amazing work as usual Paul. Would love to hear you talk about more of this special interview , especially where he talks about “identity”

[@TheDrb27]

JBP is no longer surfing a wave. Now he’s pulling people out of the white water gyre with a jet ski.Have you ever seen anybody unhappy on a jet ski?

[@paulfroelich1024]

"Don't muzzle the ox as it grinds the grain". That's a great reason to compensate content creators, and I pray it will be the starting point within the realm of labor relations.

[@PaulVanderKlay]

thank you!

[@Parsons4Geist]

The key is looking at Peterson's talk with Spolsky on determinism what really does not set us free is the key to Jonathan P key point to the alignment complete unfreedom

[@anotheroneal3380]

59:08-59:50. Wow. I agree with Paul that Peterson's next book will be great!

[@vngelicath1580]

As a "high church" (liturgy and sacrament) Mainline *Protestant*, I can sympathize with Jordan having one foot in each camp.

[@jacquedegatineau9037]

Abstractions vs "the real thing" is tough for people until a pro sports league changes the ruleset.

[@myhatmygandhi6217]

Huh? Can you elaborate?

[@LiamGCErskine]

Thanks Paul, loved this video. For example, your comment on the difference between possession and indwelling. Liam

[@nancyschaecher7125]

Wow, so ready for this talk.

[@paulfroelich1024]

Hey All, I remember JP's first appearance on Rogan, and I knew it would change my life. I also recall, especially as he was really catching fire, a sense that he was about to go through something terrible. He was unmistakably taking on the suffering of others, and I knew he had a Gethsemane right around the corner. Did anyone else have that premonition?

[@AFringedGentian]

I think that if Dr. Peterson hadn’t suffered as he did, he would not have been able to do and be what he has been called to do, and is doing now. I think his very best work isn’t the 2017 work everyone is always so nostalgic about, it’s on ahead, because he’s been working toward it his entire life, and he was refined by fire so that only gold remained.

[@aukefeitsma2143]

Bedankt

[@Hellyers]

the conversation around 42:00 is all about 'confession through projection'.

[@anselman3156]

1:00:37 At ARC, David Stroud criticized England's leading universities for requiring acceptance of the 39 Articles as the settled doctrinal position of the established Church of England. The intention of subscription to the Articles was to avoid ongoing contentious doctrinal disputes within the national Church and in its top universities. It affirmed basic truths about the Christian Faith which all Christians could accept, besides making particular Anglican observations on some more controverted points. All in all, it was "responsible citizenship" to accept the reality of that settled established Christian religion and not to seek to undermine it. Dissent was tolerated outside the Church and those leading universities. Would be interesting to know if Stroud has any concept of an establishment of Christian religion.

[@jimmyintheswamp]

Brilliant video. Many thanks.

[@grahammoffat9752]

Am I right to say that in that opening video JB had a moment where his propositional knowing fragmented and Christ appeared in the wreckage and JP felt the presence. I’m not sure in his ongoing recuperation that he has met this space (publicly anyway) again and has instead doubled down on his propositional knowing. I’m sure this was helpful and necessary for his healing, but the moment allowed for a view of JP that we’ve never seen before and never seen since. In this state JP wasn’t angry, wasn’t critical, wasn’t frustrated. He was humble, uncertain and letting go. Is it not important for us to hear and see both Jordan Petersons over this period of transition??

[@Swatta637]

This was a great video and insight into articulating and understanding the mystical side of reality. Thank you!

[@lloydgush]

Lindsey was increadibly hurt by magical thinking and theocratic mores... from the left atheists, by the way. Because of that, he's absurdly terrified of that being smuggled in through religion. He knows, as I know, that progs want to be seen as gods on earth, or at least avatars of the gods, and that they have already infiltrated into the church all 7 way into hell. But he doesn't know mystic thought can be a good thing, he's overly paranoid about it.

[@gilscott1733]

In regards to the ceasefire on religious warfare I think it is not the result of "secularity" but rather the separation of church and state and the resultant religious freedom. But unfortunate conflation of liberty with nihilism denies the idea that I can believe that we should all be CRC, Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Muslim or Hindu and believe that some of the others are dammed. But even so that they all should be free to think and act according to their own lights as long as they allow others the same lights. This "liberal " indeed needs to be restored and preserved!

[@JCGriffith]

Do you think "Counter Enlightenment" is the best term for this? I know JP is using this term himself, it's just he's also mentioned the desire to keep the good aspects of The Enlightenment and science, and that this re-integration of science and religion would lead to a reconception of what the term "belief" means. "Counter" seems to suggest full opposition against and a reversion back to something prior, where he seems to really be pushing for both old and new. What do you think?

[@WhiteStoneName]

56:22 “I don’t think you’ll be able to read this book and be atheistic.” How does this relate to the proper knowing/knowledge of 1 Corinthians 8 (knowing *as you are known*)? It’s a big ask to manufacture true knowledge via techne (a book). Can true knowledge be…transmitted?…via a book? If all knowing is personal, can one commune-icate Eucharistic knowing through a book. Maybe. Idk. God & Mammon, Christ and AntiChrist, truth and Mammonistic knowing.

[@williambranch4283]

Satan is deeply embedded in ontology and epistemology. But if your heart is in the right place ...

[@mostlynotworking4112]

If knowing is personal and we have an intimacy crisis, then we need to fix that in order to share the good news

[@ourblessedtribe9284]

I think what he said is fine He didn't say "you'll know God" He is already on the "knowing is in embodiment" train. He is saying if you understand the book you won't be able to logically or ethically call yourself an atheist. Using the propositional forum against its own pathology. "The mind is the bouncer to the heart"

[@WhiteStoneName]

@@ourblessedtribe9284yeah. He caged it on “if you understand it”.

[@offcenterconcepthaus]

Paul, this is crucial: on your beat at the one-hour mark. Rosenstock-Huessy NAILS this in a 1949 Dartmouth lecture (Circulation of Though, lecture 3: "The chapel of the Middle Ages, gentlemen, out of which every scholar in the Middle Ages came, has of course these four tenets. First, in chapel you believe in the solidarity of the human race. Second, you believe that in God the government in the Christian era, progress is possible. Jesus left the world that the Spirit would show better things to His disciples, better than He even could tell them. And so progress is based on this unity of our era. Third, peace is the destiny of man; therefore the third tenet, the progress will be beneficial. In chapel, that is -- makes sense. And fourth, the clergy and the laity are identical in their purposes."

[@internuts11]

What we have been enjoying is the Thousand Years in Revelation...

[@matthewkilbride1669]

18:54 Sam actually regularly makes the point that meditation is NOT something that takes place between your ears and warns people against falling into that trap.

[@PaulVanderKlay]

What does he think meditation is then given his metaphysic?

[@matthewkilbride1669]

@@PaulVanderKlay I'm gonna ignore the "given his metaphysic" part of the question because I think that's the source of alot of your misunderstanding of him, i.e. insisting he explain something that's not really part of his analysis, though he's stubborn so he'd stumble through something inarticulately if pressed. Anyway, for him, meditation is: A) embodied - you meditate with your whole body, not just "in your head" - the whole point is to get out of the "In your head" attachment to thought and observe experience directly B) passive not active - in meditation what you're really trying to do is get out of your own way. Focus on your breathing, your physical sensations etc and quiet the ongoing monologue of the mind (narration of your own life), so that you can relax enough to recognize how the mind works C) A source of insight - if you've done A&B, you've relaxed enough to see how your mind & consciousness work. Thoughts simply arise without us willing them into existence. Your body reacts without "you" bidding it to. You experience emotions separate from any "captain of the ship" deciding they should happen. The bright line between an autonomous "self" and the outside world quickly becomes blurred. So when he says there is no free will and no self, he hasn't arrived there via a series of philosophical propositions, he's arrived there via sitting quietly and observing his own mind. In addition, he finds no hint of the divine when seeing the mind and consciousness as they are. As a result, when he's engaged on the topic philosophically or metaphysically, he doesn't do well, though he's too proud to back down. He's very heavy on practice, very weak on theory abstracted from practice. Hope that makes sense.

[@Pseudo_Boethius]

@@PaulVanderKlay -- Something like Buddhist style meditation requires no metaphysics what-so-ever. It's really about getting in touch with yourself, not any spirit realm. However.... People HAVE in FACT, had very profound spiritual experiences doing this, that will make them a believer in metaphysics....

[@matthewkilbride1669]

@@Pseudo_Boethius good comment, but the bit about “getting in touch with yourself” is the type of thing that’s gonna make Paul think it’s fudgy wishy-washy California New Ageism. It’s closer to Matthew 10:39 - finding your life/self by (paradoxically) losing it.

[@Pseudo_Boethius]

@@matthewkilbride1669 -- Well, fudgy wishy-washy Cali New Ageism is highly influenced by both Hinduism and Buddhism, with a big heaping of esoteric philosophy and spirituality piled on top, up to and including hedonistic paganism in general. There is even a surprising amount of Christianity that gets smuggled in, just look at the Eckhart Tolle videos on KZbin, where he basically quotes the bible verbatim. And then there is the whole "Christ consciousness" aspect to the New Age, which I find quite fascinating. But the Tibetan meditation that Harris does is EXACTLY as you describe: the paradox of finding yourself by losing yourself. The "self" that is being lost, is what we in the west would call "the ego", where the emotions and rationality reside, and moving into the "super ego" that is basically pure consciousness and awareness, without any preconceived ideas about anything. The only problem is that while meditation is the primary "practice" of Buddhism, there is, like any religion, a whole lot of reading and texts involved, and, there is very much a code of conduct that is very conservative, to the point of being nearly equal to that of Christian fundamentalism. Hence, the rational mind still plays a huge role in the religion, as it does in all religions. You can't live in a state of meditation, sooner or later you have to come back down to earth and do all the stuff that all normal people do. But the idea is that meditation is a method of transformation, that "should" make you more compassionate and more non-judgmental as practiced over time. The Christian mystics do something very similar in "contemplative prayer", the big difference between that and Buddhism, is that contemplative prayer has an aim and a goal: union with the PERSON of God. I've heard of many accounts of Buddhists reading the writings of the Christian mystics and having wide agreement with what they wrote! They really seem to really like St. Francis of Assisi for some odd reason, and Meister Eckhart, where Eckhart Tolle got his name. Not very widely known here in the west, but EXTREMELY true in Asia, is that Buddhism is extremely sexist, especially in Tibet, Nepal and India where it was first practiced. There is no real equality of the sexes as found in Christianity, and no "woman's rights" at all in that religion or culture. That only started to change recently, with all the middle class and upper class white liberal women from the West taking up Asian spirituality to find themselves. Almost all the female Buddhist "masters" are all Western woman, not Asian.

[@anselman3156]

Peterson needs to take the understanding of Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac from the Christian revelation, seeing in it a type of God's sacrifice of His only Son who would return in resurrection. See Hebrews 11.17-19, noting Genesis 22. 5 indicating Abraham's assurance that both he and Isaac would return from the place of sacrifice. It is not a general lesson about "having to offer your child to be broken by the world", but a unique event in history, foreshadowing the only true sacrifice made by the only begotten Son of God. It is only in the light of Christ's sacrifice that we can appreciate the worth of our little sacrifices done out of love for God and for those whom God loves, as they are united to Christ's unique sacrifice once and for all.

[@whatup6350]

Ayaan Hirsi Ali admits on Dutch TV to concocting her history as asylum-seeker. kzbin.info/www/bejne/nYmqlaJ8eMirnqc

[@bobbowers9829]

I feel this is a very important conversation. I listen to alot of Peterson, Pageau, Lindsay, etc. I find I need more than my intellect to make sense of their wisdom. Blue collar paster your work helps me. Thank you. :-)

[@williambranch4283]

EQ trumps IQ.

[@protestanttoorthodox3625]

I like your point about world religions being more peaceful during secularity… One question that pops in my mind is what about the atrocities that happened under secular ideologies in the 20th century? Humans are humans secular or non-secular…

[@kattihatt]

Was it the secularity itself that made the atticities?

[@protestanttoorthodox3625]

@@kattihatt my point was religious or secular. There is human conflict in either scenario. So Paul’s point was interesting but at the same time human nature continues to be the same.

[@JohnGodwin777]

18:29 As a former disciple of Sam Harris’s advanced meditation teaching (advaita/dzogchen) who was later transformed by the Holy Spirit into a new creature in Jesus Christ, I promise you that Sam Harris doesn’t really know all that he’s playing with. He is deceived and a deceiver. Mystical practices are designed to open a doorway from the domain of demons into the mind - and they work. Been there, got the “enlightenment” t-shirt. On that note, I’d like to tell Jordan Peterson that practicing kundalini yoga is an abomination to the Lord and a path to demonic possession, and that Jung’s work is all based on words channeled to him by demons. But I’d really like to tell him that the physical and the narrative really, actually do touch in the person of Jesus of Nazareth and I know from experience what it would mean if he really believed it. In that supernatural moment of receiving true faith he would weep like he’s never wept before, but he would no longer be afraid. Instead he’d be filled with unspeakable joy. I pray that day will come for him. I can’t imagine what his mind could do if he had the Truth to work with. Until then he remains merely one of the wisest fools of our age.

[@nancybrown9977]

This shift to allowing the spirits to possess you seems crucial to me. The atheists often focus on moral codes, laws, even virtues. That's the stuff that's "in your head." But the Christian life is more about what spirit you are allowing to possess you--that FEELS more true, and I think it's very hard to understand this unless you've lived it. The fact that Jordan is talking this way makes me think he may be starting to live this, or to perceive this dimension of being in the world. It's just just about YOU acting and following the rules.

[@kattihatt]

Could something that feels true, actually be wrong?

[@Readabookfoofoo]

Hi Paul. I’ve begun following you. Thank you for what you are doing. More later.

[@Readabookfoofoo]

*joined as a rando

[@internuts11]

Sometimes I feel like his transition was complete some time ago, but he is walking his atheistic friends through at a pace they can handle....

[@jimluebke3869]

"Cars are complex on the inside so they make them look simple on the outside" Yeah, everyone is some bland archetype on the outside but on the inside your life is like the crookedest-looking crankshaft ever produced.

[@williambranch4283]

Wow. You know me.

[@jimluebke3869]

@@williambranch4283 Yeah, the Transcendentalists probably had this more or less right. The crankshaft has to be crooked so it gets everything it needs to do, done at exactly the right time. Join this to more modern insights about chaos and the systems (like history, the weather, etc) that can be reliably classified as chaotic, and that explains just why reality is so friggin' _weird._ You wonder why God mentions a measuring-line in the book of Job, though, because a one-dimensional tool is the most incredibly inadequate way of even beginning to understand the whole. I guess it's all we had at that point, and what we have now is only better in that it shows us just how lacking our instrumentation of understanding is, for the demands we place on it.

[@rscotthudson1959]

This was an excellent video. Thank you so much.

[@phiswe]

18:40 I never heard Harris describe meditation as " just something that happens in my head between my ears." It is quite the opposite; when it's effective, it's a direct engagement (and confrontation) between oneself and the world (in as much as the external world isn't _also_ inevitably in our head). It's messy and seldom only about mental rainbows and sunshine.

[@I4MWH014M]

Why does it say 1 comment but I can't see it? KZbin is weird sometimes

[@jimluebke3869]

KZbin is weird a lot, with some channels like this one, who are hospitable to wrongthink.

[@williambranch4283]

Eye of Sauron.

[@joe42m13]

Sometimes spam comments get auto-hidden

[@jimluebke3869]

@@joe42m13 Algo's idea of spam is a bit... slanted.

[@jimluebke3869]

"You can't just orient yourself according to the facts, because there are so many of them" Anyone else reminded of Aesop's fable about the father, his son, and their donkey?

[@williambranch4283]

Facts are interpretation. Qualia are inaccessible.

[@Neal_Daedalus]

In game dev, there’s this concept of the ‘object’ and then there’s what’s called the ‘object class’, which is the source of all instantiated objects of that class that ‘exist’ within the game instance. Which is more real?

[@Lindsay_Mason]

Chris could have just said "read" instead of "consume." Plain and clear, as well as having good resonances with attention and relevance realization.

[@shovas]

Please somebody make Jordan stop interrupting people

[@freedomslunch]

Not Logic, Not Reason, Not Rationality ever compelled me to love.

[@kattihatt]

You dont think theres a rational explanation to what love is?

[@freedomslunch]

@@kattihatt absolutely not.

[@kattihatt]

@@freedomslunch how did you reach that conclusion?

[@freedomslunch]

@@kattihatt how do you not?

[@kattihatt]

@@freedomslunch thank you for asking. I would say theres a biological explanation to love. If biology couldnt explain love, i would rather say theres no explanation at the moment, instead of going so far as to say that there is no rational explanation at all. Do you still not want to tell me how you reached your conclusion?

[@acuerdox]

56:15 it's not about arguments, people don't convert on arguments alone.

[@pizzapractice9128]

I normally love Chris Williamson in interviews but felt he was doing a bit of what you described Sam Harris doing with Peterson. Jordan would be right on the edge of something incredibly deep and interesting, and it was like Chris just couldn't go there and would kind of change the topic. All the Bible talk seemed to make him uncomfortable.

[@joe42m13]

I think Chris's interviews are subtly edited to streamline awkward transitions/ dead air

[@tcizzi]

I picked up on the edits too. The raw version would probably be funny with the puzzled looks and dead air.

[@theodoremccarthy4438]

“Some of you were fans of Sam Harris five years ago and last weekend you were on the floor of Saint Andrew’s Church kissing a box of relics and bones. That’s a big transition.” LOL replace relics with icons and this neatly describes my conversion to Orthodox Christianity.

[@freedomslunch]

25:46 I think it really is a counter-enlightenment and that began in the early 20th century in earnest, even as these rebels used the same materialistic source to "justify" their rejection of an epistemological assumption they still agreed with, they only disagreed with the conclusions. But now, the epistemological root itself is being questioned, and in earnestness, even though this wisdom from stone epistemology has at various times been questioned from Japan in the 10th Century to China in the 5th Century BC.

[@freedomslunch]

24:50 Medieval Christianity, at least starting in the 11th Century, laid the groundwork for the Enlightenment.

[@both-and]

Nice work Paul!

[@hansnoeldner1861]

Thank you!

[@jpstahl2939]

Would be nice if some of these interviewers like Chris Williamson read just the Gospels as prep before interviewing Peterson. Would make a pretty interesting conversation to be sure if Chris recognized the bit about performative empathy as something from the Sermon on the Mount.

[@simplicityinthecomplexity6988]

Thanks for this review and the explanations that you gave. My perspective on belief is like this: Can you believe that you see your hand? Can you believe that you are reading this question?

[@metaspacecrownedbytime4579]

I said to my son a few years ago, who is now 26 years old, that it will become cool to be a Christian, like it is now cool to have a tattoo. Beware, Mat.24:5 " Poeple will come in my name claiming, I am the Christ, and deceive many."

[@omarmorillo9959]

Heb 12:2 - looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

[@newglof9558]

Do you think Jordan has established a particular "ethos" with the public that prevents him from getting his message out (maybe with those that need it most)? Hopefully this question makes sense

[@williambranch4283]

Usually counseling is done in private, sometimes with one psych observing another psych, to prevent malpractice.

[@crystallogic2543]

I think his Twitter use and his habit of jumping into every political issue is a misguided waste of his potential. But on the other hand I know new atheist types along with more agnostic ones listen to him for political/cultural commentary while begrudgingly suffering through the religious insights. If he only did bible lectures, only Christians would listen to him.

[@dalibofurnell]

🎉❤hallelujah. God bless you Ps Paul. This was a good video. Thank you

[@jeffm.5071]

James Webb proves big bang not the other way around

[@jasons4139]

51:28 Posses , indwell , what happened to hosting?

[@gabbygutierrez1885]

Wonderful!

[@paveli1181]

The separating boats analogy is interesting, but I would add more. As Petersen is getting further into Christian boat, he sees how far it is from another boat that he is in. Presence in both is becoming more untenable. That's why dabbling in Christianity gives the illusion that these boats are close together. They are not. Petersen should realize that his hero Karl Jung copied many of Jesus ideas and made his own. He needs to go to the source.

[@michaljosealtadelescubaies4118]

The ideal, in this context, is the divine or perfect representation of motherhood and holiness. This ideal is considered to be real and manifested within the figure of Mary, who is revered as the Mother of God within Christian theology. Mary serves as a container or vessel through which this divine ideal is made tangible and accessible to believers. In her role as the Mother of God, Mary embodies the virtues of love, compassion, and purity, making her a symbol of the highest spiritual and maternal qualities within the Christian faith. The Ideal is a role ,is a Person and is real.

[@joshwrt2029]

Ooo man loved this! Rene Guenon's Reign of quantity and the signs of the times paper goes into this. Substance\essence and quantitative/qualitative. Worth checking out but it's a total mind grenade, a bit like language of creation. I've not been the same since.

[@williambranch4283]

Quality is its own quantity.

[@majm9309]

"Atheistic argument" is slightly weird, given the main issue is * truth is the set of facts about reality * evidence is our detections of reality, so it's the only reliable way to know truth * before evidence, every idea starts unknown to us * we don't have sufficient evidence of any gods * so we don't know they exist and if the goal of your beliefs is truth, then non-belief is the rational position. Well that _is_ an argument, but ultimately the issue here is the lack of good arguments _for a god._ Again ideas start unknown. So non-belief in an idea is the rational position until we have a good argument/evidence. We don't have that for gods, so the result is atheism. I once heard a speaker say, _"Set your house in perfect order before you criticize the world."_ Then I watched 3:04 where Peterson admits a troubled life, and also heard that Peterson is writing a book criticizing the world. (Oh, and the speaker who said that was also Jordan Peterson.) It's one of a long list of mistakes Peterson makes, really.

[@davidwilliams5008]

OH... Mayhaps JBP has something to say again. Perhaps my attention will be recaptured

[@aphiggs8657]

Let's not forget that aesthetics and (to a lesser degree academia) have already gone through the anti-enlightenment in the form of postmodernism. This is not a cheap insult directed at postmodernism - it is and was a legitimate epoch in aesthetics. If, therefore, modernity is receding as PVK so often claims, let us not mistake that the proceeding phase will be one of fruitful and bountiful religiosity. Upon leaving Egypt, the Israelites had to first wander the desert for 40 years before they could enter the Promised Land. There's absolutely no reason to think we won't first have to do the same. Huh. Is PVK the Moses of our age?

[@JamesDixonMusic]

He should just stay in stasis and feel the pain. Edith Stein did, so did Mother Teresa, so did everyone who was worth their salt. Feel the pain. If you feel comfortable you aren't in the right place. Even in faith, especially in faith, you should feel disconnected from God, otherwise how have you entered in to the passion ?

[@burstangel]

What if that is not where God wants him?

[@RoyalProtectorate]

Feels weird seeing Jonathan P using counter enlightenment given my understanding to that use case. If anyone is interested in going further down the rabbit hole into my sphere of people search up dark enlightenment and you can join in

[@williambranch4283]

Carl Sagan couldn't go there.

[@grailcountry]

Whatever he writes cannot possibly be as good as The Experience of God: Being, Consciousness and Bliss or Beauty of the Infinite., I will be shocked if it even rises to the caliber of Atheist Delusions.

[@andrew_blank]

I was listening to DBH lecture on the Irreducibility of Consciousness to Matter. A question was asked about gaining an understanding of spirituality and he recommended Stephen RL Clark’s _How_ _to_ _believe_ _in_ _Fairies_ . I assumed it was going to be a much more rigorous JP and Santa Claus-type, but alas I didn’t read it (yet) as it was well-guarded behind a paywall no matter which way I turned on the internet (I will find a way to get it even if I have to pay ultimately 😅).

[@whatup6350]

Ayaan Hirsi Ali on Dutch TV says she made up a traumatic past to win Dutch asylum. kzbin.info/www/bejne/nYmqlaJ8eMirnqc

[@rachaelgibson]

39:14 Trusting in oneself obviously. Ones own effort and ability. Pretty much the opposite of Ephesians 2:8-9.

[@johnkelly4359]

I think you have think that you have to admit that in the talk between Jordan and Sam, that Sam may have knocked down a toy or two of Jordans, but that in the talk Jordan did a great job of hiding as many toys of his toys as possible.

[@palmtree9815]

So you think Traditional religions will grow now? It feels like it’s about to grow exponentially

[@larrypullum9410]

Eliade makes the point in his Patterns of Comparative Religion, of the Sacred being necessarily understood on its own terms, if it is to be fully and properly appreciated in its truth. In attempting to illustrate such foundational terms, he remarked upon the viewing of an elephant’s cells under a microscope, in contrast to dealing with it directly as a given species in zoology; the latter showing us something more than the former, in concerns of what an elephant truly is. That point, however, of the vital tie, bio-physiologically, between the microbiological or single cell, and the more phenomenal level species wise of the multicellular, is the real public place, and clearly upright figure, form-fitted and clothed culturally and ancestrally, in humankind alone, in relation to God as a then universal Spirit of judgment, coming and going of itself, even in our purely oral prehistory, with every newly modern and then post modern age. Peterson - and like the churches, of themselves, in their presently fallen public institution - is wanting to see us, as isolated individuals, in concerns of such scriptural prophecies; rather than being, in truth, but the very dust of the ground, locally and nationally, from which such public institutions of Church and State, are actually created by the Lord, of himself, so that dust thou art, prophetically in such narratives, and to such same dust in the creation of such same narratives anew, time and again, shall we historically return in all such New Worlds, particular new Nations, and finally Universal Civilizations, in historic step and turn and stage. His psychological view of scriptural figures such as Cain and Abel, therefore, take such scriptures - and the name of the Lord, historically no less than doctrinally established thereby - in vain; instead of their always being, in truth, a given historic judgment of those very public institutions, of themselves, as said, of the Church and State, together, in such always certain historic appearances of the Lord, of himself, whereby they then once directly beheld him in such a truth, and have since forgotten him therein. He - like a common preacher - projects all sort of emotive associations upon Cain and Abel, which scripture does not posit; especially in concerns of their respective sacrifices. Even as he ignores such clearly noted institutional features of Cain being a tiller of the ground, and Abel being a keeper of sheep, as these symbolize to some degree obviously, individual or democratic grasses, in the first figure, like the once agricultural aristocracy of our Founding Fathers, and the clearly legislated “mark”, thereby, of our since given Nation. Just as a more ethnographic or popularly herded basis in Abel as an apparently good shepherd wholly gathering his flock, can be reasonably extrapolated upon the distinct public call and consideration of all, morally and justly established ideally by the certain public institution of religion alone, in relation to the Lord, of himself; and by which, I would contend, is the very reason for a “respect” by the Lord, unto the sacrifices of Abel. Abel’s sacrifices are an attempt, moreover, to reestablish a wholly gathered, and thereby geopolitically assembled body-politic - (for every sin a man does is without the body) - and so that, sacrifice and offering thou would not, but a body hast thou prepared for me, that we might give answer for God, when we are questioned. The Greek marketplace, in the connection of Greek and Jew, respects the conquering hero, proprietarily establishing the Nation, in relation to the martyred Saint otherwise, establishing the directly principled bridling of all in wholly gathered culturally communistic communities.

[@rachaelgibson]

57:30 Jesus said the opposite. Our ideas about what is good are very far from God. "Whatsoever is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God." Luke 16:15

[@KevinMakins]

Why does James Lindsay (Against Magic) give himself the title "Against Magic"... what is that referring to? Can't find him explicitly using the language or articulating it.

[@williambranch4283]

JL is a Hogwarts graduate ;-)

[@andrewternet8370]

He’s a counter spell wizard man

[@berniegrysen5897]

The title is a description of the position he takes against religious precepts based on metaphysical beliefs found in Christian faith i.e. the virgin birth, the resurrection, life after death. This is often sarcastically alluded to as "the woo" or magic, by those who smugly and self-righteously consider themselves above such things.

[@williambranch4283]

@@berniegrysen5897 Brainiacs debunking literalists is shooting fish in a barrel.

[@jimluebke3869]

"JBP and CS Lewis share this approach" I wish him more luck in the public forum than Lewis saw. Lewis was fated to watch as Britain fell to atheism.

[@williambranch4283]

The higher they fly the greater their fall. Icarus.

[@jimluebke3869]

@@williambranch4283 Sometimes I wonder whether the entire British Empire was God's way of counteracting Prussian militarism. The British had just enough power to knock that down, and seemingly no more.

[@williambranch4283]

@@jimluebke3869 Not that I am anti-German ... but the G-d of History leaves His signs.

[@jimluebke3869]

@@williambranch4283 To be fair, the Prussians took the worst of it during the 30 Years' War, as Spain and Sweden (and France and Austria) decided their little corner of the Northern European Plain was perfect place to have their Great House war when the Hapsburgs were trying to take over Europe. It makes me a little nervous about the long-term intentions of the Poles (from the same neighborhood), who are currently on an armaments buying spree.

[@williambranch4283]

@@jimluebke3869 You know the old history. Wait long enough and we are taken by surprise ;-(

[@matthewkilbride1669]

Around 34:30, talking about ideals, autism undercuts his argument. Neurologically typical people if asked to think of a chair imagine a nebulous chair-like object and fill in the details only when asked to. Autistic people famously think of a specific chair they know in real life. The universalizing tendency isn’t natural to them and is a big barrier during language acquisition. JBP’s argument would then suggest that autistic are somehow incapable of knowing reality, which is a tough point to make.

[@rudivandoornegat2371]

I'm not a Calvinist, but think that an atheist will stay an atheist, even if you give all the evidence and explanation in the world. Because I think some people really don't want there to be a God. But yes, people who are open to it, may find a lot of useful information to become Christian.

[@MS-od7je]

God amazes me. Constantly. You’ve managed to cook and serve these 7 course meals.

[@croinkix]

At 44:20 reminds me of the One Piece character Big Mom. A mother who eats people whole steals a part of their whose end goal is to end racism but is very cruel funny enough has pink hair.

[@ShowMeMoviesInc.]

So wait the evolution / creation conversations aren’t over yet? 😊

[@williambranch4283]

It's a dialogos.

[@williambranch4283]

Dissing empirical objectivity and mathematics as just so much European imperialism ... makes Lysenko and Mengele smile.

[@fatherbigmac]

19:29 I'm looking at his socks

[@anselman3156]

I hope you have black socks, befitting a priest. Not very very very very dark blue ones, but black!

[@fatherbigmac]

@@anselman3156 yessir, except at the gym.