Daemons, Demons, God, & the Meaning Crisis | Dr. John Vervaeke | EP 414

[@MrDMR1]

I’m a Catholic priest and have a bit of theology under my belt. John Vervaeke is VERY well read and informed. I love the fact he quotes Nicholas of Cusa and the principle of paradox. This is serious and cutting edge Christian thought. GREAT convo!

[@Robb3348]

does JV identify as a Christian?

[@MrDMR1]

@@Robb3348 Thank you. Good steer. After reading his bio on his webpage, it seems he is interested in Buddhism psychology. It doesn't say anything about him identifying as Christian. I may have got a little over-excited, as I geeked out on Nicholas of Cusa and the principle of paradox in my studies!

[@Robb3348]

@@MrDMR1 No problem! In the past couple of days I ran across another YT video in which he says specifically, "I'm not a Christian." (Sorry, but I can't find it rn. If I come across it again, I'll post its location in this thread.) But he's obviously Christian-adjacent and heavily influenced by certain Christian authors, as you point out. What kind of ministry are you involved in, if you're comfortable sharing that? And how much support is there in your Catholic circles for an interest in someone as "out there" as Nicholas of Cusa? What's your take on "learned ignorance"?

[@SWBodyguard]

If Catholics and Christians believe in Jesus, why do you insist on putting Jewish beliefs in the beginning of your books? You're not Jewish.

[@MrDMR1]

@@SWBodyguard Jesus is a Jew and was raised to worship and relate to God His Father through the Hebrew scriptures.

[@memopinzon]

Goes without saying that Vervaeke's series "Awakening From The Meaning Crisis" and "After Socrates" are absolutely worth anyone's time and cannot be recommended enough.

[@FentonMulley-cz8pv]

Or as much a waste of time as any woo woo

[@Shroomex]

@@FentonMulley-cz8pv simp.

[@FentonMulley-cz8pv]

@@Shroomex philosophy is real stuff. What these dudes do is sell snake oil with a label that says "____ crisis solution"

[@Shroomex]

@@FentonMulley-cz8pv You obviously didn’t take the time to listen to the 50-some lectures in Awakening From the Meaning Crisis if you are dismissing what Vervaeke says as “snake oil”. That lecture series is highly insightful and about as comprehensive, philosophically and scientifically grounded as it gets on this subject matter.

[@FentonMulley-cz8pv]

@@Shroomex he sold you 50 lectures( bottles of oil) on something that non woo woo philosophers can spell out concisely.

[@MrEgelados]

Following John Vervaeke's work over the years is like watching a reality show of someone going through an enlightenment process.

[@JoshWiniberg]

Vervaeke brings out the very best in Peterson. These are the conversations that, like the best books, you can come back to time after time and discover something new in it. More like this please!

[@SeekingTheLogos]

John Vervaeke is journeying toward God. Amazing to watch

[@MTech07]

I’m too stupid and poorly-read to grasp more than 40% of what they discussed, but I have enough unconscious wisdom to realize this was very very profound. I’m grateful that I have a life ahead to catch up and try to understand. Thanks you both for keep brining meaning to us. I sincerely wish you nothing but a profound adventure. Thank you.

[@martinvargas2756]

MTech07 don’t feel bad. The best I have done, understanding some of Jordan’s conversations with his guests, had have me watching the interviews, 2-3 times, and there’s been some, that I have had to listen to them 5-7 times to understand them in their majority. I’m talking about, stopping them, going to dictionaries, research terms, etc. Funny enough, when I heard this conversation for the first time, I doubt if I was going to understand it’s majority or not at all, even after most likely having to listen to it, more than 5 times, and here I am on my second time. This is one of the things I love and appreciate from Jordan’s lectures, presentations, interviews, etc., he makes me have to elevate my normal way of thinking, my vocabulary capacity, my own opinions, among several other things. 🙏🏽

[@Anthony-bo9uh]

dont feel stupid man i just finished the video and i feel like i already gotta restart it

[@jonyD143]

It's not that you're stupid. It's just they're so high up in this field.

[@MTech07]

@@martinvargas2756 It is not about the vocabulary per se, it is more in terms of the content. I know enough esotericism to know some of the things they are referring to, but clearly I have still a lot to learn. I do seriously also hope that few people understand it because I do think it is a little dangerous to enter such realms and connect with such entities if you are not an enlightened individual.

[@sweebos]

Keep listening... Keep thinking. These are words with listening to and thoughts worth having. ✌️💙

[@patmaloney5735]

We are living in an era where everyone can attend epictetus' lectures or hear Lao Tzu speak. We shoukd be so immensely grateful

[@DJKinney]

Not everyone should be exposed to such knowledge. It makes Joe Sixpack think he has the tools to understand it.

[@jedswenson5667]

When I was first exposed to Lao Tzu I scratched my head and thought, what is this guy talking about. After years of studying his teachings I can only understand a small amount of his genius. His words are often simple but practical.

[@panelbeatermusic2128]

I am

[@tranquil02]

@@DJKinneyWhen knowledge becomes available, those who are drawn to it will know, whereas those who are not in the right mind, place, or time will not.

[@zeenuf00]

​@@DJKinney Moron 😅

[@Fishdemon72]

These two need a joint lecture series, easily my 2 favourite intellectuals right now

[@bholdr----0]

At least if they do a joint thing there is one less platform that is being polluted with their atavistic bigoted crap. Seriously! Your favorite intellectuals!? How about educating yourself and stop looking up to these losers- JP is the stupid person's idea of a smart person. Sorry, you clearly are seeking understanding, so, good for you! Maybe start with the classics, then get into some literature (in fiction truth is revealed, etc)... The Brothers Karamatsov by Dostevesky is worth more than everything JP has ever said (everything is in there); A good place to start if you dont want to jump into the deep end of, say, Cicero (his letters sparked the light of the Renaissance), etc. OR for a light start- try Madness Gordimer's Nobel Prize winning 'July's People'. Or some Hemingway or Twain if you are in a hurry... There is a world of ideas that JP et. al. actively try to supress. Don't listen to their cheap, retail 'philosophy'- He's trying to sell books. Even his PHD is in a pseudoscience!

[@FentonMulley-cz8pv]

Have you looked into any other people? These two are the biggest woo woo peddlers in their fields.

[@zelestial1681]

@@FentonMulley-cz8pvand your the biggest idiot in the comment section. Theres really a secular vein of thinking that goes into responding to everyones comments in a negative way and making yourself look like an idiot.

[@Tuber-sama]

Verveake and Niederhauser conversations are also really pleasant to listen to, even though the entry bar is set pretty high.

[@Tuber-sama]

​@@FentonMulley-cz8pvThis is not a compelling argument. You probably doesn't even understand the topics they're talking about.

[@junjunjarjarbinx]

Literally my favorite conversation from Jordan Peterson. Two heavyweight intellectuals talking about the nature of reality

[@zootsoot2006]

Two over-middle-aged men talking absolute waffle. Enjoy y'all!

[@william411]

I wasn’t able to fully concentrate because I was busy but most of the stuff Verveke says seems like he is just saying it to sound smart. I feel like Peterson’s work is where the rubber meets the road. IMO

[@Kak2R_]

@@william411 indeed, I'm trying to figure out why I can't follow Vervaeke. I just get bored and switch off. Is it because I'm dumb or he's full of over-intellectualised nonsense?

[@pookz3067]

⁠​⁠@@william411In my experience, labeling someone as “just trying to sound smart” almost 100% of the time is an excuse you’re making for yourself when you don’t understand what someone is saying. Basically idiots on social media will do that but doing that in vervaeke’s position will get him called out instantly by someone like Peterson, who seems to value his ideas and how he puts them. Most of what vervaeke discusses in his work leads to directly applicable and (in his opinion) beneficial life practices.

[@edde8624]

@@william411 JP is easier to understand partly because he does articulate it a bit more clearly but Vervaeke is on another level with his overall knowledge of philosophy and such. The reason you don't understand it is because John uses a lot of philosophical concepts that are extremely complex even for those who have engaged with it for years.

[@bendadestroyer]

This is a fantastic discussion. I realized I am Jobe. In the last couple of years I lost my grandmother, my childhood home, my wife, and I struggled for a year to get a job, let alone one in my field (marketing). Through these hardships, I maintain my rose-tinted perspective overlooking the world. In your exodus discussion, you speak about the Jews breaking their covenant with God, but God maintains his side of the covenant. This is the approach I am taking with my wife while we are separated. After all, if God is the ultimate good, and that is what we should aim for, then I'm doing the right thing by continuing to love and honor my wife. Yesterday, her car battery died. She called me on my day off while she was at the apartment of her emotional affair (she doesn't know I know). She tried to pay me $50, but I refused. I didn't change the battery out of debt, ego, or to prove a point. I changed the battery because she is my wife, and I will always provide for her when possible. She took a piece of my soul with her, but I'm so thankful for small moments.

[@ryangallagher4914]

God bless you. The pain of that betrayal must be world shattering. I'm praying for God's will in your life. Focus on the promise, not the plan. For Christians one thing is always true, even from the perspective of hanging on a cross, and that is: the best is yet to come.

[@nathanboklage4707]

Anytime Jordan Peterson and John Vervaeke get together it’s magic 🪄 ❤️

[@OceanicEstate]

Friendship is magic. ✨

[@strangetheology]

Magic is an appropriate word :)

[@yapphenghui2010]

Indeed Indeed. Never miss it for the world.

[@xB0RNFR0MPAINx]

Yeah as long as Jordan can restrain himself from interrupting 😂

[@relic940]

“I’m Dale but you gotta call me Dragon.” “You gotta call me Nighthawk.” 🤣 They should call themselves “Beliefs Worldwide.”

[@Tristangames699]

1:15:25 "I really love talking with you" - what a beautiful moment

[@sweebos]

🙂

[@cinebitsofficial]

romantic moment

[@sylvanbear7125]

I used to think that Jordan and John were rivals, probably because John remained in the university, also because Jordan seemed to have regarded Jung more highly than John did. Now I see that they are collaborators, operating on distinct but parallel tracks. One thing is for sure, each is very highly read and competent in the arts of research. We must all benefit from their gracious sharing in this public forum.

[@gratuitousfootnote1183]

Gracious is not really the word, they're just doing what public intellectuals do.

[@sylvanbear7125]

That is an exceedingly optimistic assessment, and, I suspect, reaches not to the extent as you might hope; but if I should be proved wrong, I shall not lament.

[@badreddine.elfejer]

"Just" ​@@gratuitousfootnote1183

[@PetrosSyrak]

My understanding is that John holds Jung in very high regard. If you’re interested in that, you might enjoy his conversations with Anderson Todd.

[@stevebowldeep69]

I heard Jordan mention one time about how it's sort of frowned upon to speak about Carl jung so I imagine alot of people in this area of expertise hold back alot just to not stand out from crowd etc

[@bobwilkinsonguitar6142]

This is the /only/ conversation thread that matters to me. The only two people who seem to fully grasp the metaphysics, philosophy, and psychology of our time, and are actively working to repair it. Keep pursuing that golden thread, I'm sure you'll be entwined together for awhile.

[@Andrew.baltazar]

Daniel Schmachtenberger

[@mr.clean419]

I digest Dr. Peterson frequently. His lecture series, his new podcast, live in-person when i can, etc. And yet this conversation is leaving me in awe a little bit. Can't yet explain it.

[@terrormilk384]

the awe comes from the sheer complexity two individuals can generate thrue thoughts, id guess

[@benjaminlquinlan8702]

Its a mythological clash!

[@susancullom3508]

How blessed to be "a fly on the wall" for this conversation, talk about gratitude 🙏

[@FentonMulley-cz8pv]

Poor fella. Someone should have opened a window. That room was so full of nonsense I'm surprised you could survive.

[@pi1810]

You have no idea how fundamentally and profoundly this discussion has affected me. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

[@Anonymous_Whisper]

So much fun to learn. Also we are very privileged to have the tech to watch this.

[@the.taxil.hoax.]

I'm feeling this right alongside you my friend 🙏

[@bobfalconer]

WONDERFUL WONDERFUL one of the most stimulation and exciting conversations. Vervaeke's courage in discussing his visions and his dialogues with Hermes is so powerful. there are many of us with experiences like these who never speak of them for fear of ridicule. THANK YOU

[@WalkWithGraceThisEra]

The world needs more podcasts with Dr P and Dr V together, let alone with/alongside other UofT psychologists; this was top notch content gentlemen!

[@SeisiwaGosiame]

I met the man John Vervaeke, humble and a thought provoker. 😊

[@johnhood9567]

I like this; Dr Peterson is talking about having a nested sequence of assumptions, and he says: "...a given phenomenon can violate an assumption, and then, the degree of the entropy that's produced by the assumption violation is proportionate to the depth of the assumption..." He stated it more or less like a formula. And Vervaeke says "umh huh" with this look of complete comprehension on his face. It's nice to see. And I understood, I think, that what Peterson is saying is you have ideas about how things are, and then something challenges those ideas, and how much that challenge upsets your equilibrium depends proportionally on how deeply you believed the idea that got challenged to begin with. But he says that in a very elegant, concise way and he is just able to assume that his listener is completely up to the task of following his brilliant mind at work. It's inspiring.

[@sharpenedge]

From Dawkins to Hitchens From Hitchens to Harris From Harris to Peterson From Peterson to Vervaeke What a ride this has been so far.

[@Alkindus1]

You need to go then From Vervaeke to Iain Mcgilchrist

[@sharpenedge]

@@Alkindus1 eh, that bridge isn't forming for me, but thank you for the suggestion. I will give him more listens.

[@ألحان-ح5ط]

كفر مع ايمان يا لها من خلطه...كيف يجتمع ايمان بخالق مع إنكار وجوده وكيف أمكن هذا الشخص( بخبث) من دمج ما لا يدمج ويقنعك انه تنوير !!!!ليس تنوير بل ظلام ... من أعطاكم السلطه ؟؟؟ وما هذه الارضيه المشتركه المدمرة اساسا!!!!

[@spaceanarchist1107]

​@@ألحان-ح5ط I think they are saying that they progressed from one philosophy to the next, step by step, rather than combining the different worldviews.

[@hierkommtalex96]

Time for Alex O'Connor

[@InspirationStories786]

I wish the God, the sacred, the way, the source of awe, the being, the divine, the ultimate hyper prior, the mother of super ego, the caller of calling, the most fundamental understanding, the source of axioms, the ultimacy bless these folks with long lives and many endless discussions like these. So profound and so satisfying to know who we are. Thanks you JP and JV.

[@InspirationStories786]

Divine Essence is the Absolute and Infinite Being, without a quiddity. His Essence accepts neither limits nor boundaries, as is the case with other beings, static or changeable, which are limited and finite. A changeable being is one which constantly transcends its former limits and assumes new ones. But such is not the Divine Essence. Quiddity, which may qualify and confine Him within limits of finitude, is not applicable to Him. None of the aspects of beings are devoid of His Presence, and no kind of imperfection is applicable to Him except the absence of any imperfection whatsoever: The only thing “missing”in Him is absence of defect or inadequacy of any kind. The sole kind of negation applicable to Him is the negation of all negations. The only kind of non-being attributable to Him is the negation of any kind of imperfection in relation to Him. He is free from all shades of non-being which characterize creatures and effects. He is free from finitude, multiplicity, divisibility and need. The only territory that He does not enter is that of nothingness and nonexistence. He is with everything, but not in anything, and nothing is with Him. He is not within things, though not out of them. He is over and above every kind of condition, state, similarity and likeness. This is so because these qualities relate to limited, and they determinate beings characterized by quiddity: “He is with everything but not in the sense of [physical] nearness. He is different from everything but not in the sense of separation”(Sermon 1). “He is not inside things in the sense of physical [pervasion or] penetration and is not outside them in the sense of [physical] exclusion [for exclusion entails a kind of finitude].”(Sermon 186) “He is distinct from things because He overpowers them, and the things are distinct from Him because of their subjection to Him.”(Sermon 152) “He is the One, but not in a numerical sense.”(Sermon 152) “He is not confined by limits, nor is He counted by numbers.”(Sermon 186) “He who points to Him admits for Him limitations, and he who admits limitations for Him has numbered Him.”(Sermon 1) “He who qualifies Him limits Him. He who limits Him numbers Him. He who numbers Him denies His pre-eternity.”(Sermon 152) “Everything associated with unity is deficient except Him.”(Sermon 65)

[@mohammadhosseinzolfagharna8106]

Just keep it up Prof. Peterson. The world needs more people like you

[@davidlakhter]

these conversations with John are always a pleasure!

[@StoneShards]

Yeah, John always gets Jordan fired up!

[@traveel9409]

Conversations between Jordan and Vervaeke are always a treat

[@kronk2294]

Jordan's Vervaeke interviews are the ones where I absolutely have to take notes in order to achieve any level of satisfactory comprehension. I love it!

[@AnGryPOETry]

Same😅

[@judsonthompson7497]

interesting point here. making thorough exploration with decided honesty towards what you value. in art as in sacrifice

[@LunaLucie3911]

❤

[@Acedecoeur]

"For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light".🙏

[@JackVogel2024]

Jordan almost falling off the chair in awe-inspiring recognition by John's precise description of rudimental inner workings. Gotta love it. Anyway, this is one of those rare moments where the host complements the guest in such a manner that a creation more expansive than the sum of its parts takes place.

[@bathl]

52:30 is the best definition of faith I've ever heard

[@ttqc290]

It is uplifting to witness two astonishingly gifted men from the world of academia where relations are so bitter because the stakes are so low entering a world where they realize the more chilled out you have to be to make a difference in the real world.

[@zootsoot2006]

Christ. Why do we put up with this crap? The Truth is staring us in the face moment to moment and yet we dare not acknowledge it. These pontificating blowhards do nothing but misdirect us from the Living Truth right here, right now. Abandon all, ye all who enter here.

[@reflexoesarteecultura]

well, what can I say...Mr Vervaeke is a very smart intelectual. It was a very rich conversation between you two. thanks Dr Peterson for bring back Mr Vervaeke for a very great conversation.

[@memopinzon]

Hey Jordan, you should get back to talking with John Vervaeke every couple of months, at least multiple times a year if possible. Your discussions are always fruitful and highly meaningful,. You complement each other wonderfully and I'm grateful to gain new ways to look at reality as a consequence of being an observer/listener during these talks.

[@jasonbarlow1448]

1:15:29 "I really love talking with you" -- I can't even begin to imagine how fulfilling these men are to one another, not only in terms of mutual intellectualism and an eruidtion that is hard to find outside a niche academic setting, but also as spiritual seekers steeped in, what at least appears to be, a Gnostic, mystical tradition. And such humility on both sides. Kudos guys, kudos. Spontaneous, giddy giggles have welled up in me at various points during these talks. Awesome to hear Vervaeke acknowledge similar joy in such simple terms.

[@TheHangedMan]

I could listen to these two talk for hours... and I have. And I shall continue to do so.

[@RalfPack]

Thank God, there are still some brilliant, very brilliant minds actually willing to Think. What a fantastic discussion. Thank you.

[@aperson7584]

What an exciting time to be alive!

[@FindingTheNarrative]

Might be the two most important men on the planet for personal insight. There are no words of gratitude I can give, to meet my appreciation for them both.

[@JediSteele]

This was so engaging mentally that i was literally pushing my face closer to the screen as if the video were pulling me in

[@emiliek4002]

Lol. I try so hard to understand and I listen some sentences many times. English is my second language but this isn't the barrier. Crushing your old perceptions of being is hard to overcome.

[@maggen_me7790]

The thought that rushed into my mind when listening intensely..This is astonishing!

[@armando1829]

Probably the two most verbally intelligent people I know of having a conversation is always so nourishing to listen to!

[@jmsvn]

Oh my god. here we go again. Huge fan of John Vervaeke. I listened to ALL of his lectures. He's my favorite intellectual out there. I'm so excited to hear this conversation!

[@jakeguti1]

Hanuman!!!!! I love how vulnerable John got with his IFS therapy work he has done. I have so much reverence for Hanuman. Thank you for this discussion, I cherish every time Jordan and John share space. The world is a better place after each time this happens. God Bless you both!!!

[@tomgreene1843]

This covers much of the ground of Christian understanding of mystery , sacrament and ideas about analogy . St Pauls knowing in part.

[@stephenphillips3883]

Always love your conversations with Dr Vervaeke, so interesting I could listen endlessly.

[@NimDorji-t3k]

This should be one of the hardest conversations to dissolve. Such depth, insight, revelations, and complexities.. Loved it.

[@mlebukamedia9395]

When the ears of the student are ready, the lips of the masters will fill them with knowledge.

[@Rachelcuenot]

John Vervaeke, you are so precious

[@Kaamos123]

Bookmarking that line at 1:05:00, that's a good simple way to say it that I need to meditate on.

[@michellehintz2098]

Thank you! One of the most compelling discussions in so many levels. Please do more of these.

[@oliround]

This conversation is a beautiful microcosm of what should be happening on the macro scale of society

[@stacytotten5208]

my understanding comes in waves. the vocabulary lesson alone, is worth the listen..❤❤❤❤❤

[@emiliek4002]

Vervaeke is so calm and very good listener. It is very peaceful conversation with him as always .

[@kevinkelly1262]

Yes. A better listener than Dr. Peterson, who frequently does not let Dr. V finish his (highly edifying) statements, being so eager to vocalize the connections he has made between something Dr. V said and Dr. P’s ideological framework (a phrase Dr. P might object to tho, for all his true wisdom, he is a bit of an academic ideologue in spite of himself)

[@sixteenseven123]

I just listened to this conversation for my third time today and I just want to say thank you to both of these men. My prowess of vernacular is often unfit to the level of thought I'm trying to convey, but these men do an excellent job of fully flushing out a thought, and the level of thought they discuss is extremely intriguing and beneficial to me. I've always struggled with a sense of self and to hear the concept that self lies somewhere in between it all is a reassuring sentiment.

[@dayelu2679]

But did you notice it changed from 1hour42minutes to 1hour and a half 😥

[@Robin-nm5me]

We need a Jordan Peterson / Gabor Mate conversation who’s with me ?!

[@toddjohnson6998]

Yes!

[@iankclark]

I don't think Gabor Mate likes JP because of politics.

[@badreddine.elfejer]

more like Vervaeke and Gabor Mate :D

[@valkarkauskas9488]

Gabor Mate has great ideas but he is too idealogical in his political views, he dislikes Peterson, or jealous, or both

[@iankclark]

@@valkarkauskas9488 agreed

[@TPW2]

Jordan, please do one of these with Charles Upton! I think you guys would have an absolute field day!

[@johnoswald9143]

This is the definition of the good stuff, John Vervaeke and Jordan Peterson in conversation always produces Gold.

[@KevinBasham]

This is Dr Peterson at his best, up above the political. What a wonderful conversation.

[@joshuaprivett3552]

I studied the near entirety of both of these men’s online works after watching their first conversation- at the time I was already familiar with Peterson, and I was very frustrated that I couldn’t understand their conversation. Now, a few years later I can proudly say that I ALMOST understand the total significance of their discussions.

[@juliantn]

The first one before JP was famous or after? If you haven't seen it you might enjoy "Jordan Peterson & John Vervaeke discuss the Meaning of Life - Master Minds I". If you can almost understand the first one after he was famous then congratulations, as someone proud of my ability to at least have a clue what these guys are talking about that one was a frustrating muddle for me.

[@joshuaprivett3552]

@@juliantn I haven’t seen that one as far as I can remember. Thanks for the recommendation!

[@maresasegura2867]

Yes, I think in where you were. I sort of feel I need a reading index to get more out of this conversation. I'm hitting it vaguely but getting frustrated that I can't keep up fully. I would have ten years ago so I'm thinking some intellectual sluggishness has kicked in meanwhile. I may have to sit down and fully attend to this one . Don't think passive listening is going to cut it with this one😂 It's a David Lynch moment. Like oh, I have to concentrate!

[@angelaratzay9034]

Today as i listened to these two beautiful minds i got moved to tears .im 88 female,irish catholic. Have strayed at times from god am inching my way back. While listening to the Dr's i thanked god for their existence and allowing me to witness it. This is a great day, i now k ow my believes are unstoppable. Thank you both what a couple of power houses So classy.

[@tabenningshoff]

That they really enjoy talking to each other makes this even more engaging

[@prettycatlick4373]

"Awakening From The Meaning Crisis" is the best free academic shit online...period.

[@AngelaWilkinst]

Thanks for putting me on to that,I have just started watching it. 😊

[@LeviBrich]

These two have conversations that even angels marvel at. Give glory to God brothers. I'm humbled by the lessons you give humanity. Keep fighting the good fight, no doubt we need juggernauts like you both on team humanity.

[@stevewilliams846]

Angels do not marvel at man.

[@DigitalHalos]

Its been great watching these two get to know one another better; from back on that podcast where his guest, a student I believe, recommended Jordan meet Vervaeke; to then not long after, watching her podcast with Vervaeke; then finally that first podcast a year ago or so now when John first appeared on the JP podcast; and where it had a few awkward moments, but that was quickly overcame with vulnerability, respect, passion, compassion, and some fruitful, novel, intellectual commodities, resulting from their synergy; and since then on several others, including some panel-type gatherings I believe with John and Jonathan. It's been awesome to follow the remarkable places they go, and this topic in particular! Two thumbs up for these two publicly sharpening their noggins for us.

[@Americaiswithisrael9794]

Always one of your most enthralling guests. Yall should talk more. Pleeeeaaaase. 😊

[@crazykiki252]

What do I want to exist even if I don’t? And what am I doing about it now? Fantastic question….. I want my family to be happy… so I’m going home to have fun with my children…. This will change our day…. This is an exorcise I need to do everyday. Thank you for this question John and thank you Jordan for all the guidance I’ve found in you

[@mjmcc-]

So much love for this comment ❤️

[@saundrainconnecticut]

Jordan you are so fabulous and such a pure, soul. What a gift you are.

[@encouraginglegacy]

A lovely lady right here. Do you know Mads Mikkelsen?

[@saundrainconnecticut]

@@encouraginglegacy no, I do not.

[@philipgray4320]

All ways speak truth to power, and if they don't listen, stop talking to them, and just watch, God bless everyone ❤

[@jeffweatherby5279]

My third time watching this. I can't get over it

[@eliasluoto]

Inspiring to listen to Vervaeke conceptualize his spiritual experience. He has such a deep mind and vast base of knowledge to utilise in making sense of it all. In the spiritual circles (I'm referring primarily to the new-age) people commonly (and I believe genuinely) have these experiences, but don't spend much time organising their thoughts around them like Vervaeke does. It's all taken for granted, and approach very intuitively, like: "Yeah, I meditate and my guides communicate with me, and occasionally a god or some other powerful spirit comes through with a message." Love to hear the perspective of these top psychologists.

[@EcclesiastesLiker-py5ts]

If pretty much any religion can give you that sort of spiritual experience, that seems to imply the experience is not something external, from YHWH or the gods, but internal, from insude the person. If spiritual experience was really from the external, surely only one religion would experience it.

[@languageteachingtruth.6952]

If you want something truly deep, read Therese of Avila. The things you describe here pale in comparison with her and St. John of the Cross. Aurelius Augustine is one more to take a look at.

[@eliasluoto]

@@EcclesiastesLiker-py5ts Good point. Another interpretation would be that all religions have the same source, or describe the same reality from different perspectives (based on the cultural and political atmospheres within which they emerged and grew.) Nevertheless, there's definitely an internal element to the experience. My personal experience aligns with Vervaekes description of the gods or "archetypal presences" being somehow simultaneously internal and external, and sort of beyond the internal-external duality. He discusses the transcendence of that duality a moment earlier in reference to his meditation practice where he asks "who is witnessing my thoughts", or something like that.

[@eliasluoto]

@@TLPSh0ckW4ve They refer to it, but I don't think Vervaeke was using exactly the same practice. I'm not one to say though, you might find out more by listening to the After Socrates series on YT.

[@eliasluoto]

@@languageteachingtruth.6952 I'll have a look, thanks for the recommendation! I haven't dwelved that deeply to Christian mysticism yet, but it's something I'm interensted in exploring.

[@orthodoxboomergrandma3561]

I remember when my biggest concern was my intellectual project, my 25 year career as a clinical research psychologist. Once I discovered the Orthodox Christian ascetic and sacramental path to Theosis, I dropped all of it, submitted myself to Christ (a Person) and basically am a monk at home. It’s very difficult to crucify ones intellect. Fr Seraphim Rose helps in his critique of the Enlightenment and Perennialism in his “Orthodox Survival Course.” I was so in love with my intellect. It’s much simpler and harder to purify the nous and be granted a vision of The Uncreated Light. No amount of intellectual activity, no matter how useful and even beautiful it is won’t bring one into Communion with our Creator. 🙏🏻☦️🙏🏻

[@michaeldarling33669]

Man, thank you for this. That feels like a great description of where I'm at in life, except I'm a recovering addict currently still trying to get off my medically assisted therapy (suboxone) hahahaha ain't nothin to it but to do it when it comes to getting to know God, eh? Although that's no small task.

[@orthodoxboomergrandma3561]

@@michaeldarling33669 also if you can visit any of the Greek Orthodox monasteries started by Elder Ephraim in the US and Canada you can seek counsel for spiritual healing! We view the Church as a hospital! I am the sickest patient…🙏🏻☦️🙏🏻

[@tylergray4443]

@orthodoxboomergrandma3461 Adding to the world's knowledge is an amazing/beautiful thing! The downfall of most Intellectual's is Pride. Be proud of what you've contributed, but stay humble and I think God/The Universe/Everything will be happy with it. #42

[@colorfulbookmark]

Friendship is good and I have reveres both of Dr.Peterson and Dr.Vervaeke, it is continued is good thing for.

[@johnhood9567]

So much to consider and enjoy in this brilliant discussion. God bless these two men.

[@zelestial1681]

This was an extremely educational and thrilling discussion of many topics. My how I feel energized. And I love how Jordan was really getting into it. 🎉

[@autumnleaves2766]

Fascinating discussion, some of it way beyond my level but still well worth hearing. I loved John Vervaeke's remark that he fell in love with his wife's soul before he fell in love with her physical attributes. As Dr Peterson replied, that is the right way round to have things. All too often we look for someone on the basis of physical attraction, but content of character is far more important. I agree about the need to be vigilant, to try to notice everything, from a ladybird on a blade of grass to the expression on someone's face to the sound of raindrops on a window pane at night. I often feel at my calmest and most serene when noticing these apparently trivial things, I also get that same feeling when playing the piano, composing music or listening to favourite music. I've been alone for nearly twenty years but it just doesn't bother me any more. Anyway, great discussion by these two distinguished gentlemen, much appreciated. It is wonderful to listen to two men who have such a great mastery of the English language.

[@mbarbosatube]

Thank you Dr. Peterson for dialectically stimulating your honorable guest to such a degree. I can only imagine how both of you are grateful for having had this beautiful dance. For two people that so much love beauty in all of its forms, let me tell you that a lot of it was spontaneously created here. Thank you (both) so very much for this 🫂

[@j5555785]

JP's tie is AMAZING. I'm sure there's good things being said here, but my word, what a flipping tie!

[@RickDelmonico]

The sacred is that which moves deeper into relationship with God.

[@Leo-mr1qz]

"Well...that's quite the trip." 😅😂 Leave it to Dr. Peterson to keep it light. ❤

[@autumnmccomas]

The energy between these two is amazing. I enjoyed this conversation so much. Now I’m more excited for the new book!

[@torey2359]

Best conversation about knowing the self. Had to watch this 3 times to understand and take something to practice. Thank you.

[@timjenkins3476]

Thanks!

[@brookealiasemeraldfox8192]

I absolutely love Peterson’s lectures about religion and spirituality. His thoughts about an a priori point of emergence and of people as spiritual beings with a subconscious that is of God, really strikes home with me. I love his truth and the consequential bravery that stems from constantly seeking, speaking out about, and knowing the TRUTH. He’s as close to it as you can go and tries to live life in alignment with the principle of strength is in truth and truth alone. You know the truth when you hear it. When you become in tune with it wholly and completely, you’ll have a better idea of where you truly came from- I think these two are close. ❤

[@Dericulus]

"What do you want to exist, even if you don't? And how much a difference do you make to it now?" I didn't think my sources of both anxiety and shame could be so clearly considered by only two short questions. This alone is very helpful. Thank you.

[@motiveinmotivation383]

This should take place at least once every 2 months

[@AlexanderProcopis]

Easily the best conversation between these two thus far

[@ChrisOgunlowo]

1:15:26. A charming moment, “I really love talking with you”. A man to a man. I felt that. An incredibly powerful conversation.

[@joryiansmith]

This seemed like an important and revelatory conversation, thank you both 🙏

[@word-pictures]

What a delightful conversation- peace, hope, and love to both of you 🕊️🔮❤️

[@mills8102]

This is the most profound conversation I've heard with John or Jordan or anyone ever. This is inadequate but thank you for sharing 🙏

[@rruckman5431]

Thanks!

[@kwameowusu8351]

I love it when you guys talk. God richly bless you and continue to use you for his glory

[@frankmorse1195]

Another great one! You’re looking great Jordan. Healthy and happy. I hope you feel likewise. Keep them coming. I’ll see you live next month. Thanks!!

[@Mark-is8te]

Thank you both! The fact I can sit in the comfort of my home and watch two titans of thought and alpha role models wrestle with such complex matters is a Godsend.

[@Alexander_Isen]

I love this circle with Vervaeke, Peterson, Pageau and more that's being knit. You should have Paul Vanderklay on next who you have spoken to before

[@streetballa331]

Christ died for you John ❤❤❤

[@Observer-g6m]

I dont think he is open to what that means. He has turned from Christ to Hermes et al. But maybe he'll repent one day and return to the God beyond the gods (idols/demons)

[@cleverestx]

To find out if people (and of course YOU) have meaning in life: "What do you want to exist even if you don't? ...and how much of a difference do you make to it now?" - Dr. John Vervaeke That is SO PROFOUND! I just had a transformative moment hearing this so beautifully articulated.

[@csulb75]

I have found the meaning of life and it is simply meaning!

[@trentline9539]

1:14:30 “you can be responsible for being grateful for it” such a genuine interaction and a simple, wise truth.

[@jerrysobota]

Joe vs the Volcano is my favorite movie. It's an-appreciated masterpiece overflowing with symbolism and insight.

[@fiorrdaliss]

Ah, the beauty of this conversation!