Joseph Smith Didn't Write the Book of Mormon | Stylometry with Paul Fields

In this extended cut of A Marvelous Work Episode 4's segment on Stylometry Scott and Paul fields unpack the data comparing the Book of Mormon to 19th Century authors. Make sure to watch the full episode if you have not yet seen it:
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[@FalconFastest123]

Im not sure the analyst adequately answered the final question "how does this help show the book of mormon is true?" The answer seems two-fold: first, we would expect a more ancient author like Ether to be somewhat removed from the later authors in content and style because he comes from a different culture. Obviously the visualized data supports this. I imagine you can find similar trends as you move along the chronology and geography described in the BOM. The second is that you would also expect individual authors to speak about unique topics that they themselves like most. Just like Elder Uchdorf likes to mention airplanes or President Nelson often mentions heart surgery in their talks, you would expect to see similar patterns betwee individual speakers in the BOM. Again, the data visualization seems to bear this out. So, the final point is that the BOM was not written by one person. It was written by dozens over thousands of years. Its an etymological proof of the veracity of the BOM, which combined with all the countless other evidences is undeniable to any rational mind. Ultimately, of course, only the Holy Spirit can give a testimony of the truth from God. I have received that witness many many times. These evidences only serve to reinforce the truth.

[@beliskner3791]

So far the only proof that church apologists provide is the word "nahom". I would be delighted to know what evidence you are talking about.

[@gordonscott8758]

The logical implication is that if Joseph Smith didn’t write it, then it must be what he said it was: “translated by the gift and power of God” and therefore true. If that implication were not acceptable, then you have to consider the idea that one ancient author compiled the work of 27 others and somehow got it to Joseph Smith, but wrote something that was a bunch of lies! How crazy would that be? Crazier sounding than Joseph’s own account. So if Joseph didn’t make it up, it is true.

[@devin6272]

I appreciate this testimony. I myself have been struggling with my faith because of all the whispers of doubt and the attacks on the validity of the LDS church being true. This is a reminder to me of my previous conviction. Thank you. I better get reading.

[@mofomushrooms4973]

This has helped me as I’ve been struggling with my faith. Raised lds and am about to be 25. Started believing again a couple months ago but I’m starting to struggle with my faith again. Thanks for these videos it helps

[@curtisdecker3175]

I've been there, we all go through faith crisis at some level. A lot of my faith crisis was created by the adversary and his puppets. Jesus warned us that those who follow his gospel will be rejected like he was. I was reading in John 15 last night and as I read through its entirety, I couldn't help but feel my faith strengthen more. I'm a convert and the common thing I heard was that the Bible doesn't support our faith, I read the Bible often and the more I read it, the more I go right over and read the book of Mormon because the uncherry picked Bible in its entirety 100% supports the book of Mormon and the restored gospel. Down to the treatment of lds by those who follow creeds just as the jews claimed that Jesus taught a false messiah.

[@FalconFastest123]

Yours is a very common experience. Just remember what Elder Uchdorf taught: Doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith. This advice is key, because Satan loves to make you question everything you know over one or two unresolved questions or even outright lies. It's far better to question the one or two doubts than to question your entire faith, plan of salvation, and countless spiritual experiences of your entire life, especially when the gospel brings such peace and hope while the alternative is emptiness and fear. Read your scriptures daily is the biggest and most important ingredient to keeping faith strong.

[@FalconFastest123]

Yours is a very common experience. Just remember what Elder Uchdorf taught: Doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith. This advice is key, because Satan loves to make you question everything you know over one or two unresolved questions or even outright lies. I once had this experience over Joseph Smith's polygamy. I momentarily doubted if he could be a true prophet. But then I stopped reading the words of the critics and actually read what his wives said and wrote. Turns out they all genuinely loved him and I am even related to one of them! It's far better to question the one or two doubts than to question your entire faith, plan of salvation, and countless spiritual experiences of your entire life, especially when the gospel brings such peace and hope while the alternative is emptiness and fear. Read your scriptures daily is the biggest and most important ingredient to keeping faith strong.

[@jennysparks7232]

I pray the Lord blesses u with the peace in knowing the gospel is true . I am going on 74 and a member since age 20. It is a decision I know has been my salvation. Keep praying, studying and living the principles of the gospel and it's truthfulness will sing to ur soul continuously. God bless u and urs.

[@mascotbenches5146]

There is value in the struggle and growth. If you had no opposition to your belief you would be weaker. I think a simple faith is better than not having hope at all. You are in a good place for God to work with you.

[@VincentNoot]

10:00 fun fact: it just dawned on me recently that olive trees should be in an orchard, not a vineyard. Joseph smith probably knew that too. But later they discovered that in those regions, olive trees were often in vineyards. I don’t think he knew that when he translated it. He’d be a nut job to say “vineyard “ if he had made it all up. It’s little things like that that make me know that he was either a genius, an idiot, or inspired by God.

[@JonLundy0]

The Hebrew word for orchard is the same as the one for vineyard.

[@Kimmer]

... and this is only one of many evidences of the Book of Mormon that is amazing. Other evidences like chiasmus, Hebrewisms and multiple internal and external discoveries showing it is a plausible translation of an ancient record are also incredible and demonstrate it is indeed another testament of Jesus Christ.

[@jakeave]

Fun fact, by age 24 Joseph Smith had a higher published word count than Tolkien, Shakespeare, CS Lewis, Jane Austin, Rowling, none of them ever came close until their late 30s. Technically the Book of Mormon wasn’t his original words, but if they were, he would have been one of the greats.

[@skylerfreeman8782]

How is quantity equated to quality in his case?

[@jakeave]

​@@skylerfreeman8782 They're not equated. The quality is thousands time better than the quantity, which was already substantial.

[@JerrBaybEe]

Really neat visuals 🤩 This was fascinating to me ❤️‍🔥😊

[@Bookofmormoncentralofficial]

Thank you 🙌

I wish he could have compared it to the Joseph Smith papers where Joseph wrote his personal journal. I´m not a specialist in this area, but I can clearly see that the way Joseph wrote in his journal was completely different and way more simple than the Book of Mormon. Seemed to me that Joseph wouldn´t have the grammar and cultural knowledge to write such a complex book as the Book of Mormon. Besides, for writing such a complex book, Joseph would have not only to be intellectually so much better than every other writer of his generation, but how in the world would he write a content that would literally makes us feel closer to God the way this book does. God answers our prayers and communicates with us through the words of this sacred book, we feel closer to Jesus, we love him more, we feel a greater desire to repent, to forgive, to serve, to love, to believe, to be good people, this book changes the way we feel, it draws us nearer to God and strengthen our faith in Jesus. How could anyone have invented that? and if someone actually invented that, how would someone lie in order to draw people nearer to God? The fruits are good, in the end, that´s all we need to know.

[@jakeave]

There's a good 2012 paper on this by Matthew Roper, Paul J. Fields and G. Bruce Schaalje. They show the Book of Mormon stylometry compared to Joseph Smith and other prominent members of the church at the time.

@@jakeave and what was the result?

[@tannerbohman4231]

Will you please use this same analysis on the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible?

[@libertyordeath1211]

I know this is totally unrelated but I miss seeing this guy in hilarious Mormon movies. Singles ward etc.

[@karliesukowaty]

Can you recommend a few funny ones for me lol

[@libertyordeath1211]

@@karliesukowaty sons of Provo, best two years, and the R.M. Mobsters and Mormons is great too

[@ijn2252]

@@karliesukowaty Also, Baptist's at our barbeque.

[@coxmyth]

The host of this show used to host the 11pm move on channel 14 (if you lived in Utah) i wanna say it was called KJZZ. My late brother and i used to watch it together. Despite all the other work he's done since i always recognize him from that. Very fond memories.

[@staines888]

The open secret to know if the Book of Mormon is true - read the book, ponder/study it and pray/ask God if the book is from Him. If you are a true seeker then God will send the Holy Spirit to manifest the truthfulness of it. Even many people in the Philippines have already received the book and can testify that it is from God and you will feel closer to God, forsake committing sins and feel more happy in life ❤😊

[@kuriju88]

How does this control for plagiarism? If I include passages from Paul, Isaiah, Jonathan Edwards, Adam Clark, whoever would their styles also show up ?

[@octaviobottari2013]

Probably but not all over the book

[@rachaelbrundy3837]

Credit is given . Isiah is quoted and it says so. Joseph and his scribes did not take credit upon them selves for their use of scripture old or new. But it was attributed back to the Biblical authors or compilers.

[@kuriju88]

@rachaelbrundy3837 credit is not given. For example, Compare Moroni 10 and 1 Corinthians 12 when Moroni reads off the gifts of the spirit from Paul or Mormon 9 : 23 - 24 taken from the long ending of Mark 16. The book is filled with these

[@endlesseverfall3176]

God is the author of these books, the same God. So why it would be a different doctrine?

[@kuriju88]

M@endlesseverfall3176 what do you mean? The Bible isn’t univocal..

[@mmccleve]

Can you illustrate the visuals juxtaposing the Bible with the Book of Mormon? (Maybe break apart New Testament vs old for their own colors)

[@DavidPeel-fo9xv]

That’s be awesome.

[@Irvingdector]

If Joseph Smith was not a prophet, then He was a genius.

[@taylorallred]

Have they done this for the Mormon’s Doctrine and Covenants?

[@taylorallred]

Is there a link to the code they use? I want to check their program.

[@Bookofmormoncentralofficial]

I believe all Paul Fields data and analysis can be found here: bookofmormonexplorer.org/toolbox

[@samuelswank9653]

Does this channel address the question of modalism in the Book of Mormon.

[@nickhansen5711]

Very well done! I love the visual representation using technology. Fascinating!

[@Bookofmormoncentralofficial]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@truthinkr2931]

Interesting but what do the 3-D graphical axis represent?

[@TheYgds]

It is something called "principle component analysis". The axes represent different degrees of representation of some "principle component". There may be dozens of components the algorithm identifies, such as certain word frequencies, word strings or clusters, semantic correlations and more opaque features relating to grammar and style. The algorithm can collapse several of these components into a single axis that differentiates sections of the texts analyzed, usually based upon how those analytical features correlate with each other. The higher the correlation, the stronger the established principle component. I'm not totally sure how this works with stylometrics, but good algorithms used in other fields for similar types of analysis are usually "unsupervised", that is, the person inputting the data has no ability to affect what features the algorithm chooses as differentiating, and to what extent. This has only 3 axes, but may represent many more dimensions of analysis. If I recall correctly, I think stylometrics usually breaks down the text into very short phrases or even word pairs for analysis. This can still be a problem, since how the data is encoded for analysis may bias it. I hope that they also do this for the D&C and KJV Bible, as those are the only controls I can think of that would be able to show what is happening in the Book of Mormon. Since the language of the Book of Mormon is very different from that of fictional works of the 19th Century, the thing to compare this distribution to would be other texts that use or attempt to use similar language. The D&C could be a good stand in for what it looks like when Joseph is dictating revelations with KJV-like English and of course the Bible itself uses similar language and should have a similar stylistic spread. These are the comparative and positive controls this study lacks. This work is not complete by a long shot, but remains compelling because of the total encompassed volume of the distributions exceeding other authors, while also showing clustering of specific voices.

[@daveduncan2748]

@@TheYgds Yeah, but I'd like the Axes labeled. Axes should always be labeled. Would be cool to poke around in this data for hours. In fact, that second plot would be a great way to read the Book of Mormon by topic!

[@TheYgds]

@@daveduncan2748 I fear they'd just be labelled PC1, PC2 and PC3....like they are in other similar plots.

[@daveduncan2748]

@@TheYgds Yep. I found them in the linked papers. Guess I'll just have to be satisfied that they are some of the primary correlations.

[@brit8802]

“Is that the Liahona guiding the way?” 😂 you are so pleasant!

[@Steelblaidd]

I would so love to see this on my Quest

[@Iomega311]

Would you be willing to do this same study, but comparing writings from Solomon Spaulding and Dr. John Smith of Dartmouth? 🤔 There are recent discoveries that show unique things from Anathenis Kircher's life/writings (1600's) in the Book of Mormon, including the character Nephi, Brass Plates, Reformed Egyptian, etc I'm currently reading the book, "How the Book of Mormon Came to Pass", and it is fascinating! It would be very interesting to see how the findings in this book would match on this model. The author discusses the exact things mentioned here about fingerprints from authors based on the filler words.

[@robsin2810]

What an amazing analysis. 👍🙏🇦🇺

[@Sagart999]

I would like to know the semantic content of the huge number of light blue dots all across the plot.

[@Bookofmormoncentralofficial]

Paul has put all the data online in several interactive visualizations: bookofmormonexplorer.org/toolbox

[@DianeNims-gg7lf]

No amount or kind of analysis will prove to anyone that The Book of Mormon was TRANSLATED by Joseph Smith, Jr. from ancient records of Lehi and his posterity. One must want to know. One must pray , read it, study it, and ask with a sincere and humble heart. This is all; the only way. The Holy Ghost will testify to your eternal spirit that dwells inside this body of flesh. The spirit is eternal and will testify the truth of all things. ❤🙏

[@kurttlethorup]

What variation does the Bible have?

[@fightingfortruth9806]

I'd be curious to know how the Bible compares as well. I'd like to know, for example, if this method could settle the theory that the book of Isaiah wasn't all written by the same author.

[@jakeave]

That's actually why the theory that Isaiah has multiple authors exist. They already did stylometric analyses on it.

[@fightingfortruth9806]

I want to see it laid out like this though. The Book of Mormon authors are much further apart in style than the character voices in these other contemporary novels. So by comparison to the authors in this video, how distinct from one another are the alleged Isaiah voices?

[@MegaJohn144]

Nobody seems to understand that the truth of the Book of Mormon is not how it came about, but the CONTENT. Will this book actually bring you closer to Christ if you follow and do what the book says. The answer is YES. This is something you can demonstrate to yourself, for yourself. Read and apply the teachings of the Book of Mormon.

[@elcuervon6356]

Amen

[@CheyneTrammell]

Its truth is both its coming forth and its content.

[@briannicholls2628]

What a fantastic to bring the complexity of the book of mormon!

[@stonetexdesign]

Well indeed a valid question. Take it up with the Lord and ask him if it true and you will know by the Spirit of God that will manefest the truthfulness unto you. If you are asking with a sincere heart. That will be the question. ❤️

[@jonny9998]

Has this expert tested the Book of Mormon against the various books critics point to such as View of the Hebrews?

[@Kimmer]

Yes, there are several stylometry studies referenced by Scripture Central and FAIR where all the contemporary books and authors have been compared to the Book of Mormon, with the analysis showing that it is statistically improbable they could have been plagiarized.

[@laddgustafson3662]

lol the view of the hebrews

[@beliskner3791]

​@@Kimmerscripture central and fair? They don't sound like objective studies to me.

[@Kimmer]

@@beliskner3791 But in reality they are, or are you too biased to look at sources that don't confirm the misinformation you want to believe? Which other organizations conduct studies related to the Book of Mormon? Scripture Central has many academic sources that refer to non-LDS scholarly work. I challenge you to demonstrate a claim made by Scripture Central that is false or not based on factual evidence.

[@ijn2252]

​@@beliskner3791It would be nice to see more objective groups, but unfortunately the most interested parties usually have strong feelings for or against the Book of Mormon. I'm a believer, but I'd still be interested in that.

[@user-kw3et9ve5j]

That’s correct, Joseph didn’t write it, he translated it.

[@achedantes]

🤣🤣🤣

[@garyhinchman8029]

.......the visual does a good job demonstrating the wide variation in style of the 28 authors and the wide variation in the semantic content of some 6600 verses of text in the Book of Mormon........the Book of Ether has always been the most amazing text of all for me considering the practice of regicide and the cultural anomalies and traditions recorded in the text. Not to mention Joseph Smith had the good sense to copywrite the book in 1830 ensuring no one could ever adulterate it!!!!!gh

[@BrandonJones-em9me]

That is an interesting study, though it would be helpful to know more about what the variables that they are graphing mean. This shows that there are clear visual differences, but what are those specific stylistic differences? That’s the thing I would most like to explore.

[@Bookofmormoncentralofficial]

You can look more into Paul Fields findings here: bookofmormonexplorer.org/toolbox

[@Nonvido]

I've always known that more and more proof of the Book of Mormon being true is going to come out. Unfortunately, evil is going to do everything possible to discredit these truths.

[@bartonbagnes4605]

It would have been cool if he had had all the verses that mention Jesus Christ flash, for a visual of the importance of Jesus Christ in The Book Of Mormon.

[@julesverne4827]

I'm not asking this as a doubter. Has this analysis been done on the book of Isaiah? I've read there is evidence of 3 authors to Isaiah from 3 time periods. And then the question related to the B of M was how was Nephi able to have the different authors available c. 600 BC.?

[@Bookofmormoncentralofficial]

Not sure. You can look through all Paul Fields data and research here: bookofmormonexplorer.org/toolbox

[@saldomino1639]

Wow this was awesome ! This definitely strengthens our faith that the Bom is true and that JS was telling the truth !

[@brit8802]

…then we have Jane Austen- Pride and Prejudice… “YES, I love that movie!” 😂 He’s a hoot

[@davidtodd121]

This is very interesting. I'm curious to see a bit further into the research. We see that each dot represents the individual speakers of the book of mormon and classic 19th century literature but that dot doesn't show us the variation in an individual speaker's style. I want to see if you were to take a random sample for each speaker and plot the results on the graph, how close the samples would be to each other. Could it be that overall there is a lack of consistency in style and not just from author to author? The data analyst in me is curious to know. That being said, I'm grateful that I already know the Book of Mormon is inspired and this I know because of how it has changed my life and how it influences me to follow the Savior Jesus Christ. While the evidence is cool, my testimony does not rely on it.

[@Bookofmormoncentralofficial]

The data from this study can be found here: bookofmormonexplorer.org/toolbox

[@segolily76]

Of course Joseph didn’t write the Book of Mormon, he translated it.

[@TheWhiteRabbit55]

It does answer a simple question. Joseph may have dictated it but the authors were all very district.

[@briant6164]

We need to see this versus King James Bible, book of Napoleon we're similar work is previously shown tremendous correlation

[@Kimmer]

The ridiculous theories put forth by the critics to explain the origin of the Book of Mormon are laughable and have been shown to be not plausible. It takes more faith to believe the BOM is false than to believe the simple explanation by Joseph Smith! The BOM is indeed true.

[@Mcfunface]

These same critics somehow think it's logical to indulge in gender confusion promotion among minors so I take little stock in their absolute insanity.

[@joshzing3937]

The argument of this video assumes Joseph Smith to have written the BOM to reach the absurd conclusion that he was a better, brighter author than all of his contemporaries. Since the conclusion is absurd, the logical negation must be true: therefore conclude we that Joseph Smith could not have written the book himself. Moreover, the separation in data from the BOM to the other works sets the BOM as distinct from contemporaries, perhaps indicating translation of ancient texts over composition in the 19th century. While at face value compelling, there are multiple issues with this argumentation that I encourage the reading to consider. 1. The other authors of the 19th century were, in large part, not trying to create distinctive authorial voices. Again to follow the promise of the argument presented in the video, if Joseph Smith composed the BOM, he had incentive to do so with a varied voice in a way no other contemporary herein mentioned. For a fair comparison, the BOM would need to be compared to authors that had reason to create varied voices. 2. While there were multiple contemporaries analyzed, not all were. Many authors composed in the 19th century. Just because some were famous, as those considered here, that does not make them the most brilliant. 3. As for the separation from contemporary, the BOM was written in an archaic style. Thou, he, without, suffer, ye, the purpose clause introduced with “that,” among a plethora of other English archaisms were employed in the BOM’s text. The contemporary authors to Joseph Smith largely did not compose with such archaisms. By the 19th century, only liturgical texts used such diction. 4. Even with the argument presented herein as accepted, the BOM may be discredited on grounds of Joseph Smith’s low credibility: he claimed to have translated the book of Abraham from Egyptian fragments that we still have today. In his day, the western world did not yet understand hieroglyphics. Smith’s personal notes detail his assertion that he understood, through a gift or the Spirit, these writing. However, what he claimed to have been the Book of Abraham turns out to be a book filled with pagan death rituals: for we now know how to translate hieroglyphics. Therefore, whereas we cannot verify Smith’s ostensible translation of the BOM because the plates are gone, we can verify his work with the Book of Abraham and he does not pass: he lied about his ancient translation. 5. Jesus Christ, the Son of God, made final atonement for the sins of all who would believe in him. There is no ritual to be undertaken for one’s salvation. Read the book of Hebrews. Clearly, the work of salvation was accomplished at Calvary when Christ died for the sins of the world. In Ephesians 2 it says that we are saved by grace through faith, not of ourselves, but by a gift of shod, not of works. The book of Romans, chapter 10 verse 13, says that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Even Abraham was called righteous not for his works but because he believed (Genesis 15:6) Reject the false gospel of the Mormon Church, confess that Christ alone can save you, and receive forgiveness of sins, that you may live for eternity glorifying the Lord God in heaven.

[@BlaineHeggie]

5:28 interesting stats

[@WatchPleaseMe]

It’s kind of funny how they didn’t compare it to the view of the Hebrew’s or the Spaulding manuscript. These two books were written before the bom and they have so many of the same words and stories….

[@Bookofmormoncentralofficial]

Dr. Fields addresses these in his research, though we didn't include it in this presentation. You can watch a full hour long presentation with all the details. The comparison to the texts you describe starts around 27 minutes. kzbin.info/www/bejne/o6bNqZ-OZbaJo5Ysi=JEzy3_go2CWR7lCS

[@robertquillen3127]

He didn't write it, ancient prophets did, but you know that!

[@beefmaster4]

Now compare the book of mormon to the Bible that was always written by many people in a different time

[@colinmccann7123]

You were there so you oughta know !!¡

[@cybertroncoreas9888]

I don't understand the people who disbelief the Book of Mormon , how a man can orchestrate a book from his mind and say is the word of God if it isn't, it is a big responsibility to write something and say it is from God I wouldn't do that unless the Lord has commanded it , I do believe Joseph Smith was command ed to do so . What I see is jealousy from other denominations why he was shosen to do this work and not them , but the thing is God does what ever he wants it is his work 😊!!!

[@briant6164]

You also need to throw on the writings of james Smith, is outlined in the new book how The book of Mormon came to pass

[@scottnixon8432]

The Book of Mormon is true so repent of your sins, be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost.

[@brit8802]

“He’s awesome”….sigh hahaha

[@joelcrumbley1551]

Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. - 2 Corinthians 11:14

[@Bookofmormoncentralofficial]

Very true. That is why there is a method of detecting him. Section 129 of the Doctrine and Covenants gives a detailed description.

[@MamallamaLinda]

JS translated the BofM, word for word as shown him through the seer stone in a hat. The words were shown him one at a time, and only disappeared from view when it was translated and transcribed correctly. Yet, there have been many corrections made to the BofM. The BofM is a compilation of "historical" events given by many authors. When compared to "The Late War" by Gilbert Hunt published in 1816, the parallels are quite striking. This was 14 years before the BofM was translated, Joseph would have been 12 years old at the time. Considering the similarities, I would conclude that someone was plagiarizing someone else's work.

[@lachoneus.]

That's only one of a few accounts of the ways Joseph translated. It's easy to find parallels in any book. You should read Jeff Lindsay's work on comparing whitman's "leaves of grass" (published ~20 years after BoM) to the BoM where there are striking parallels too even though the books couldn't have had an effect on each other.

[@wolfrider7130]

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel- not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

[@Bookofmormoncentralofficial]

It's the same gospel and the same Jesus Christ my friend. Read it for yourself. The Book of Mormon and the Bible go hand in hand as the stick of Judah and the stick of Joseph mentioned in Ezekial. And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins. 2 Nephi 25:26

[@jake8882]

Stop being so goofy

[@devochted]

Sounds very biased to me.

[@geography_guy335]

How so? There are worse things people can try to prove. There are a lot of flat Earthers out there trying to prove the earth is flat

[@beliskner3791]

So, Joseph Smith was brilliant literary speaking. Is it impossible for a human being to be capable of such a thing? We know from his mother that Joseph used to tell very detailed stories about the inhabitants of America, long before the first vision. Do not underestimate humanity, believing that every brilliant act is the product of a God or an alien, just like the Egyptians and their pyramids. Furthermore, the Book of Mormon is full of errors and anachronisms, which leaves it far from being a masterpiece, while it should be "the most perfect of all books."

[@trobo670]

Good, I'm glad you acknowledge that Joseph must have been at very least a literary genius, however we have no historical evidence from anyone that directly knew him that this was the case. In fact, most of his critics from the day said the opposite so be careful, you can't conclude both to be true. The Lucy Mack Smith (Joseph's mother) reference I think you are talking about was actually when he was 18 according to her which would have been 4 or so years after the first vision. We know that he was receiving training from the angel Moroni year after year and in her own words: "Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of [the American] continent, their dress, mode of traveling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life among them." This aligns with his time after the vision and before he received the plates to begin translation. If you're speaking of a different account, please cite your source. The quote you use of the Book of Mormon being the most"perfect" book is also not accurate. We know it is the most "correct" book, but it's certainly not perfect and that's okay if it ultimately still brings us to Christ, which it does. I know that to be true. May God bless you in your own quest for the truth. 🙏🏻

[@beliskner3791]

@@trobo670 So according to what you say, Joseph had 14 years to develop the book until its publication in 1830. 14 years is long enough for a farmer with an excellent imagination, and a great knowledge of the Bible, and 19th century mythology, to create a book full of anachronisms, and inconsistent with Native American history. To this day there is no evidence to support this book, but there is plenty of evidence that shows it as another forgery.

[@trobo670]

​@@beliskner3791 I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that he had 14 years but I'm open to your explanation. According to the history we have available, he was born in 1805 and would have been around 14 when he had the vision in 1820. He would have been 23 when he completed the translation in 1829. But remember, if you want to accept the historical evidence rather than your own assumptions, it's well known that "Joseph Smith could neither write nor dictate a coherent and well-worded letter, let alone dictate a book like the Book of Mormon." Having a wild imagination and being a creative genius (which is what you said above) is certainly a possibility but for me, it's far from the most likely explanation according to the historical evidence. Many people claim it was a forgery but again, that theory has yet to be proven as fact. I respect your opinion but my own research and prayerful study has lead me to believe that it was a miracle from God.

[@trobo670]

​@@beliskner3791 To your point about the length of time he had to fabricate a story: Even if Joseph had a whole lifetime to prepare it, you still have to answer to the fact that he dictated the entire translation in about 60 working days, no manuscript or notes to refer to, in one shot, no revisions according to the scribes/witnesses of the translation process.

[@elcuervon6356]

@@beliskner3791@beliskner3791 The evidence is the BOOK itself; it exists and has yet to be disproven. Anachronisms have been and continue to be brought up, but they continue to fall to the wayside. Every argument has a counterargument that shows another angle. When it comes down to it, it is a book of FAITH. "All the scriptures, including the Book of Mormon, will remain in the realm of faith. Science will not be able to prove or disprove holy writ. However, enough plausible evidence will come forth to prevent scoffers from having a field day, but not enough to remove the requirement of faith. Believers must be patient during such unfolding.” - Neal A. Maxwell.

[@redfightblue]

Everything makes sense once you realize the BOM was written by Ancient Ethiopian Jews. The claim that it was Ancient American Jews is where everything falls apart. The geography, culture, history, religion, themes, etc., ALL of it fits Ethiopian and none of it fits America. Joseph Smith published a book found in Ethiopia, not America. This means Joseph Smith was not telling the full truth about the BOM. He felt publishing an Ethiopian history as a parable for America was worth the "little white lie". Joseph Smith was a Rosicrucian and his words have a different meaning than the average person realizes. "Translation" does not mean what you think it means. "Gift" does not mean what you think it means. "Power" does not mean what you think it means. This is why the controversy over the BOM has raged for hundreds of years and will continue for hundreds more. People see what they want to see and can't see another point of view. Most active LDS see this evidence and it confirms Joseph Smith's words even though it shouldn't. I see this evidence and it confirms the "truthfulness" of the BOM but not the words of Joseph. Smith. I wish people would educate themselves on this "Ethiopian Theory". It's quite beautiful and will bring a new perspective to the words in the BOM. For example: Ethiopian Jews believe their homeland, Ethiopia, is the Garden of Eden. They get this idea from a couple of reasons. #1: It is supported by Genesis 2:13. #2: It's fertile and lush (compared to the Sahara/Egypt below). #3: Its the elevated highlands of Africa (compared to the Sahara/Egypt below). #4: It is the source of the Nile river. (the Blue Nile). #5: Jews have found safety and freedom there since at least King Solomon. Some are still there, others migrated to Israel after WWII. Once you wrap your mind around this concept you can then see how Lehi migrated to Egypt, had the Tree of Life Vision and that Vision showed him the way to Ethiopia. The Vision was a literal roadmap out of Egypt and up the Nile to Ethiopia. The Nile is the river in the vision. The dangers in Egypt are the same as you can read in Jeremiah 44. The "head" of the river is the source of the Nile in Ethiopia. Lehi escaped to Ethiopia and became an Ethiopian Jew. The angel tells Nephi his seed will be destroyed on the "same" river as the one in the vision. If you believe the Nile is the one in the vision then it makes sense that the Angel is repeating the dangers in Egypt that are in Jeremiah 44 and the ones happening to the Jews in the Vision that "fall away" from the Iron Rod. Now you can understand that Helaman 3 is describing Egypt. The migration in Helaman 3 is to Egypt. It even calls it "Desolation " just like Jeremiah 44.

[@raydenrose1896]

Im curious about this theory. where did he get this book that was in Ethiopia and how did he translate it?

[@redfightblue]

@@raydenrose1896 It's impossible to say for sure. The explorer James Bruce went to Ethiopia in 1760's. While there he plundered the temples and had his scribes copy hundreds of manuscripts. When he got back to Europe he translated and published the Book of Enoch. It's possible the Book of Mormon was in that group and would have been translated and published but just never was. It could have fallen into the hands of "academia" and made it's way to America where it was readied for publication but was instead used as I described in my original post. The professors at Dartmouth, very near where Joseph Smith was born, were focused on the Native American Indian. That was the mission of Dartmouth, to reach out to and baptize the Native American Indian. This can be seen in there motto and their mission statement. The university seal is two Native American Indians walking towards the school. One of those Professors was a relative of Joseph Smith. His name was John Smith. It has been claimed that he was teaching Mormonism before Joseph Smith. (I can give more details on all of this, just ask). It could have been an agenda formulated at Dartmouth to use the real history of "lost Jews" (from Ethiopia as discovered in the Book of Mormon) as a parable for the Native American Indian. This would give them an "origin" story compatible with the Bible. So far, they were a real mystery and serious problem for Christianity. Many students at Dartmouth published stories attempting to give the Native American Indians an "origin" story. These were men like Solomon Spaulding that published a story very similar to the Book of Mormon before the Book of Mormon was published. This is the theory I'm working on. A lot has come out recently that points towards all of this. I've even discovered where and when Lehi sailed in a history book published in 500 BC. The geography published in that book is identical to Alma 22:32. To me, this indicates the stories are describing the same sailor. The sailor in that book circumnavigated Africa. If this was Lehi, this would explain why the Book of Mormon takes place in the Old World and not America. Lehi ended where he started and the Book of Mormon takes place in Africa, not America. Ask me any specific questions and I'll happily show you the reasoning for why I think this way. I have a lot more to share if you're still interested.

[@raydenrose1896]

​@@redfightblue ​ thank you. I don't personally believe the theory, but I appreciate you telling me about it. Too many unknowns and contradictions, in my humble opinion. I've studied the other aspects you mentioned fairly in depth, Dartmouth theory, John Smith, Hyrum supposedly tutoring Joseph, view of the hebrews supposed connection and so forth. I personally felt it was all more grasping at straws than being persuasive. The view of the hebrews connections, when I compared them... to me, saying the Book of Mormon plagiarized it or even was inspired by it is kind of like saying Harry Potter ripped off Lord of the Rings because they both mention wizards and dragons. They were very very different books despite having a few similarities. But anyway, the Ethiopia part was new to me, so I was curious :) I appreciate hearing your perspective. best wishes mate

[@redfightblue]

@@raydenrose1896 Thanks for your kind words.

[@raydenrose1896]

@@redfightblue you’re so welcome. Thank you as well :)

[@ericredd5590]

It is difficult to watch you wander around the sudo evidence each week. Why have you never visited prophets and apostles in SLC to discuss BOM evidences. You seem to be satisfied with theory after theory from random members. Your are wasting time and money trying to present theory’s that do nothing to actually prove that a literate bilingual people (reformed Egyptian and Hebrew) even had a civilization on the American continent.

[@daveduncan2748]

The prophets and apostles have a role. Researchers also have a role. This researcher is way more familiar with this evidence than any of the 12 or presidency.

[@ericredd5590]

@@daveduncan2748 you say that with with no acknowledgment of the irony. His theory trumps special witness called by Jesus Christ?

[@daveduncan2748]

@@ericredd5590 You profoundly misunderstand my point, and have read into something I didn't even alude to.

[@Cheeky_Sheikhy]

Yeah, no.

[@EricLDS]

Could still be demonic, but yeah, it’s not a con

[@2bhealthyme220]

No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. Matthew 6:24 even so if ye shall keep the commandments of my son, or the commandments of God which shall be delivered unto you by him, ye shall prosper in the land, and your enemies shall have no power over you. 32 But, O my people, beware lest there shall arise contentions among you, and ye list to obey the evil spirit, which was spoken of by my father Mosiah. 33 For behold, there is a wo pronounced upon him who listeth to obey that spirit; for if he listeth to obey him, and remaineth and dieth in his sins, the same drinketh damnation to his own soul; for he receiveth for his wages an everlasting punishment, having transgressed the law of God contrary to his own knowledge. Mosiah 2:31-33 The Book of Mormon testifies of Christ from the first page to the last. It warns us against sin and following Satan. It brings us closer to Him and helps us live lives of peace and righteousness. It truly is a companion to the bible, it supports and builds understanding of the bible, it testifies of the truth of the Bible and encourages us to read it. Would Satan do that? Is it "demonic" to have people read God's word? It is laughable to think that this book could be "demonic" as Jesus himself testifies that "no man can serve two masters" it cannot point us toward Him and toward Satan. If you truly have a desire to follow God and want to reap the rewards of righteous living and freedom from Satan's chains, read it for yourself and you will see how amazing it is. God's word transforms people daily!

[@EricLDS]

Still could be demonic, but it’s not a pure con

[@2bhealthyme220]

No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. Matthew 6:24 even so if ye shall keep the commandments of my son, or the commandments of God which shall be delivered unto you by him, ye shall prosper in the land, and your enemies shall have no power over you. 32 But, O my people, beware lest there shall arise contentions among you, and ye list to obey the evil spirit, which was spoken of by my father Mosiah. 33 For behold, there is a wo pronounced upon him who listeth to obey that spirit; for if he listeth to obey him, and remaineth and dieth in his sins, the same drinketh damnation to his own soul; for he receiveth for his wages an everlasting punishment, having transgressed the law of God contrary to his own knowledge. Mosiah 2:31-33 The Book of Mormon testifies of truth and points us to Christ from the first page to the last. It always points us away from Satan. There is no possible way the book is "demonic" Christ Himself testifies of this as it cannot serve 2 masters. It is laughable to think that Satan would write a demonic book that constantly and consistently points people toward His enemy and brings so many to an understanding of truth, helps them to recognize his scheming ways and break the chains of bondage to sin. Read the book for yourself and you will see that there is no possible way it is "demonic."

[@2bhealthyme220]

No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. Matthew 6:24 even so if ye shall keep the commandments of my son, or the commandments of God which shall be delivered unto you by him, ye shall prosper in the land, and your enemies shall have no power over you. 32 But, O my people, beware lest there shall arise contentions among you, and ye list to obey the evil spirit, which was spoken of by my father Mosiah. 33 For behold, there is a wo pronounced upon him who listeth to obey that spirit; for if he listeth to obey him, and remaineth and dieth in his sins, the same drinketh damnation to his own soul; for he receiveth for his wages an everlasting punishment, having transgressed the law of God contrary to his own knowledge. Mosiah 2:31-33 The Book of Mormon testifies of Christ from the first page to the last. It warns us against sin and following Satan. It brings us closer to Him and helps us live lives of peace and righteousness. It truly is a companion to the bible, it supports and builds understanding of the bible, it testifies of the truth of the Bible and encourages us to read it. Would Satan do that? Is it "demonic" to have people read God's word? It is laughable to think that this book could be "demonic" as Jesus himself testifies that "no man can serve two masters" it cannot point us toward Him and toward Satan. If you truly have a desire to follow God and want to reap the rewards of righteous living and freedom from Satan's chains, read it for yourself and you will see how amazing it is. God's word transforms people daily!

[@daveduncan2748]

Yeah, because demons are always trying to get you to believe in Jesus Christ and serve your fellow man... ;-)

[@EricLDS]

@@daveduncan2748 there are definitely religious demons like antinomian and sinless perfectionism and law keeping demons (think Hebrew Israelites movement) Having said that, it’s not the demons first choice (false religion)

[@kevinkakadelas6592]

He didn’t write it he translated it

[@1god126]

That's a dude with his eyes covered blind & blindly being given a "vision"

[@FalconFastest123]

Im not sure the analyst adequately answered the final question "how does this help show the book of mormon is true?" The answer seems two-fold: first, we would expect a more ancient author like Ether to be somewhat removed from the later authors in content and style because he comes from a different culture. Obviously the visualized data supports this. I imagine you can find similar trends as you move along the chronology and geography described in the BOM. The second is that you would also expect individual authors to speak about unique topics that they themselves like most. Just like Elder Uchdorf likes to mention airplanes or President Nelson often mentions heart surgery in their talks, you would expect to see similar patterns betwee individual speakers in the BOM. Again, the data visualization seems to bear this out. So, the final point is that the BOM was not written by one person. It was written by dozens over thousands of years. Its an etymological proof of the veracity of the BOM, which combined with all the countless other evidences is undeniable to any rational mind. Ultimately, of course, only the Holy Spirit can give a testimony of the truth from God. I have received that witness many many times. These evidences only serve to reinforce the truth.