Josh Pate On Michigan Stealing Signs & NCAA Investigation LATEST (Late Kick Cut)

Michigan and Jim Harbaugh are caught up in another NCAA investigation pertaining to alleged sign-stealing. On Late Kick Live Ep 446 Josh Pate reacted to the latest reports about the NCAA looking into the matter along with how he thinks this could impact a Michigan run to the College Football Playoff. How much trouble could Jim Harbaugh's program be in? Let us know what you think in the comments below and be sure to SUBSCRIBE to the channel and CLICK THE BELL for notifications as we bring you multiple live shows per week!
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[@JoshPateCFB]

Keep the show free - SUBSCRIBE to the channel and LIKE the video! - JP

[@llcoolbeard2922]

Hey Josh are you related to Gary Pate? I’m watching the Ultimate Warrior doc and I see a HS Football coach by that name from GA.

[@chadclark5204]

That is not Conor stallions hand holding the signals. The original photo shows Conor farther down the sideline. Tom Orr posted the original photo on his Twitter. Stalions is also holding a laminated sheet

[@tblightningbolt8902]

Yes. If you love college football. You should be against teams cheating for any advantage. Vegas isn’t going to like this

[@donbutts270]

I live in Vegas-Vegas ain't shit

[@robertbinder2743]

Everyone talking about Michigan stealing signs but no one wants to talk about that absolute joke of a schedule they have. Edit: yes Michigan fans, I’m aware other schools in college football have weak schedules. That doesn’t excuse yours

[@donyoung7874]

Number 2 in the nation by not having played one school of any consequence. Losers At Best.

[@wolverineeagle]

Look at OSU’s next year. Even worse.

[@spencergauthier7898]

Actually everyone has talked about that the whole year… lol

[@robertbinder2743]

@@spencergauthier7898please define everyone, our definition of everyone must be vastly different

[@chopper9170]

C'mon man, they play 2 tough games a year. Sometimes 3!

[@sethskullsberg7787]

That's why they lost to TCU last year. They never thought TCU would get in, so they never were able to cheat to see the play calls.

[@ZenProTech]

They lost because JJ threw like 3 pics. had nothing to do with signs.

[@cliftonconnor9389]

​@@ZenProTechCase in point. JJ didn't know the defensive play call ahead of time.

[@calebleeson5662]

@@ZenProTechit kinda makes sense tho, you beat OSU capable of winning a natty last year by double digits and then lose to TCU

[@RedWingsninetyone]

​@@cliftonconnor9389tell me you don't know how playing defense works without telling me.

[@skywalkertnc4209]

@@calebleeson5662osu came out and said they switched their signs before the game against Michigan last year

[@shepherd5234]

Josh, I am a huge admirer. I am also an attorney and I agree with you most of the time. I have a minor disagreement here. Not a B1G person and really have never hated Michigan, but I don't think it's fair to say those sideline videos of Stallions with the laminated sign chart and whispering in the coordinators ear is "no evidence", it is perhaps "slight evidence", especially in isolation. The fact is though, they know Stallions is the one that bought the tickets and he is the guy that is on the sideline with the chart and whispering in the ear of the coordinator. I agree they need more, but that's some evidence. Michigan would be better off if the video did not exist.

[@cliftonconnor9389]

I agree. It is another piece of evidence. Not sure if to say more circumstantial evidence or it adds to the preponderance of evidence.

[@GAMING4UNATION]

There’s still tons of doubt. Too many questions or possibilities of other things it could be.

[@jollyjolly9027]

100%. Just maddening

[@brandonscott8831]

Michigan is dead in the water on this they're caught red-handed they even caught the red-handed they are dead to rights harbaugh will be gone by the

[@ngc5195]

He doesn’t want to go too hard on Michigan because it’s a big fan base that he doesn’t want to alienate

[@austintacius]

Connor's job was "recruiting analyst" - not defensive coordinator. Michigan's intent with his title is obvious to obfuscate what his actual job was which was to send recruiting interns to games to record signals (they got the venmo receipts proving that) and then tell the coordinators what to check into.

[@gmh471]

And this is not going on elsewhere, right? Please. Sure, if a rule was broken, it was broken, but I wish that everyone calling Michigan "cheaters" would be adult enough to realize that if Michigan is doing it, so is their favorite school. And I don't want to hear anything from anyone related to or with allegiance to Ohio State or any SEC school. You got away with bagmen forever.

[@wyattlada9985]

@@gmh471except their not no other team goes to games to film to learn signs. Other teams steal signs just on the field when they actually play each other and approved film by the big10

[@gmh471]

@@wyattlada9985 If you believe that, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. But, also, look what you did. Nothing has been proven, it's just allegations. Moreover, you have not only convicted Michigan based solely on allegations, but in saying "other teams steel signs just on the field" you make a declarative statement that no other school has people attending games and taking video. You have no idea one way or the other. But, if we are to use our gift of reason, the notion that no school other than Michigan could possibly be doing what Michigan is accused of is just plain silly.

[@wyattlada9985]

@@gmh471 exactly I can do that man y’all scUM fans must get a good education up there bc I can make a declarative statement bc no other teams have allegations or even evidence for going to games and doing this. Michigan is the only one that has these allegations AND EVIDENCE. Stop only scUM fans are trying to say this isn’t cheating. Every other person in CFB thinks it was cheating

[@wyattlada9985]

@@gmh471 no evidence right now means they didn’t do it. It’s reasonable to assume that no other team does it bc A. There’s no evidence of them doing it and B. There’s a reasonable human assumption that we follow rules especially when facing harsh punishments so I’d do your research first and then also stop with your flawed logical assumptions

[@johnendicott8595]

This Buckeye fan is far more interested in beating Wisconsin on Saturday night than this right now.

[@2SloppyJoe]

There’s no way this staffer paid for tix, travel, airfare, etc on a $55k a year salary (before taxes).

[@BA_Cloud]

That’s what these scUM fans don’t want to listen too. Or the fact that before 2021 (before the alleged sign stealing started), their percentage against the spread was 70%. Also looping in the fact that Hairball and UM are 1-6 in bowl games. Kind of odd, if you ask me. You know against the teams they weren’t illegally scouting.

[@jamietwigg4845]

He comes from money. He graduated from the Naval Academy. He is a retired Captain in the Marines, so he has a pension

[@jizzyjake6783]

Your current salary doesn't necessarily dictate your net worth

[@mr.green2341]

@@jamietwigg4845And even so, Michigan still stood to gain. The “lone wolf” talking point is a bust.

[@jamietwigg4845]

@@mr.green2341 and they could still not know what he was doing. His personal CC, tickets bought in his name Sorry, isn't gonna stop the 3rd beatdown of OSU. Plenty of rival fans are going to be upset when this is over in a year or 2

[@howdave]

UM worst year under Jim Harbaugh was a year when fans weren't allowed into the stadiums..

[@gbear34]

Haha good pt

[@Bakarost]

Hmmmmm interesting

[@BlackMountainCycles]

@@derekjones5728 same Covid restrictions that every other team in the B1G had to follow. That’s not an excuse for only winning 2 games.

[@popy-kk9fn]

They also got a brand new OC DC O line coach QB coach etc the year after?

[@aaronjoley4491]

Whatever. Joe Milton.

[@andrewquillenofficial]

As a lifelong Michigan fan, born in AA, with parents who both attended the university, I'll be gravely disappointed with the program if, in fact, it is found guilty at the end of the day. Michigan may not have won many games when Hoke and RichRod were there, and even when I was much younger with Carr, but they were also not accused of serious cheating in the game. Those wins in the last couple of seasons against Ohio State meant a lot to my family and me. If it turns out to have been a cheating success, it will be a few years before I can watch them play again. It's a sad turn of events for many Michigan people. That being said, until it is fully confirmed as guilty, we must let it play out. It will run its course soon enough, and the truth will come out one way or the other.

[@NicklausMiller]

Feel better knowing OSU claimed to have known last year and installed new signals before the game to prevent Michigan from having the upper hand.

[@keithjb68]

This is not serious cheating, sign stealing is not illegal nor is it considered cheating. Every major program has a guy like Stalions. This is, however, against the rules and is a competetive advantage. The rules were put in place for economic reasons back in the 90s because big schools like Michigan can afford to scout in person and smaller schools with smaller budgets cannot.

[@tendjinn]

Vol fan here. Not here to condemn a fellow fan but if it's all true then Michigan in part robbed my team of a playoff berth by giving those signs to South Carolina. Given that we had been in the gutter for 15 years and finally had a special year and chance to to make the playoffs only to hear it might've been derailed by a team looking to protect its own playoff chances that's a special kind of pain. We waited a very long time for something to celebrate and to find out that it might've been stolen from us is hard to take. The coaches involved need to face punishment wherever they happen to be. Our players, coaches, and fans didn't deserve to become collateral damage.

[@andrewquillenofficial]

@@tendjinn Frankly man, as a friend of many Vols fans, I was shocked to see SC take it to you guys the way they did last season. I’ll add another element to this, though, if this turns out to be a bust and the NCAA is wrong on this (again, I don’t know either way nor does anyone right now) then they went after a Veteran. And for that, the entire NCAA can go f*** themselves.

[@TheGtrot4]

They’re guilty, they’re just still gathering evidence at this point. Won’t conclude till gathering is complete.

[@robschaller9061]

That isnt the extent of the scandal. Additionally, this isnt a criminal standard of evidence its a preponderance of the evidence standard. EVERYONE is missing the CLEAR violiation on that video. Michigan like every other school is allow ONLY 10 coaches and 4 GA to e involved in the game. Staff are allowed on the sidelines but are PROHIBITIED from coaching or engaging in any capacity as a sideline coach. Second, it is a violation for a staff member to attending games what is proven is that surveillance show sidelines of games being recorded a NCAA violation since 1994. If you want to play no evidence game then being an ostrich if you want Harbaugh, and the OC are looking at Show cause.... Additionally, the Covid investigation infractions has not been closed. this is going to be UGLY

[@charlesbartlett2569]

It’s amazing that it took so long for a team to get caught. The NCAA could have simply not banned helmet communication devices.

[@KINGJAMES2NYC]

It's voted on by the universities/coaches

[@dontransue9843]

There is no rule against stealing signs, there is no enforcement of rules going to games; A staffer bought tix for non scouts, not scouts. This rule is obsolete since youtube game analysis is a thing. This 1994 has been obsolete for years.

[@KINGJAMES2NYC]

@@dontransue9843 after everything you've heard this is what you came up with,?... So you really believe they are going through all of this trouble over 17 different programs in and outside of the conference keep in mind the money that's changing hands in the gambling industry...

[@charlesbartlett2569]

@@dontransue9843 NCAA prohibits using electronic equipment to record signals and ban off-campus scouting of future opponents. You would need to consistently film the players sending in the signs to cheat. You aren’t going to get that type of video on TV coverage. The rule was created so that low budget teams wouldn’t be at a competitive disadvantage. It would be a mute point if helmet communication was allowed. It is no longer price prohibitive.

[@anonymousNine]

Coaches don't want that because then they can't steal signs

[@heartbreak25]

Harbaugh went 47-22 his first 6 years. He's gone 33-3 since the alleged cheating started happening. Two of those losses were to nonconference teams in the playoffs. That type of quick turnaround usually requires stacking top 5 classes. UM barely cracks the top 10 most years in team recruiting rankings. The whole "different team" excuse is just more big blue spin. If Michigan was smart they'd confess to the cheating. They'd then say it's a level playing field going forward with their hardest opponents coming up. Like Josh said, try to win out and hope any vacated wins will be prior to this week. Letting it drag out makes it worse.

[@bucks33331]

Let’s not forget how easy their 2022 and 2023 schedules have been. I’m not saying the cheating didn’t help. But playing literally 10 easy wins a year is a big factor in the turnaround too. In 2024 Michigan plays USC Texas Oregon Washington and Ohio State. Things are about to change. They better pray they go 15-0 this year.

[@dtfech]

The entire coaching staff changed? You've predicated this one "there's no possible way Michigan could have improved like this without sign stealing/advanced scouting." But Don Brown was fired, Josh Gattis 'parted ways', and Michigan's dominant Defensive Coordinator is now killing it in the NFL as the Ravens' DC. Also, I'm not sure advanced scouting to steal signs makes it easier for the offensive line to dominate the league and win the Joe Moore award twice. If you think that the ONLY way Michigan could make the strides they did was because of illegal scouting, therefore they illegally scouted you have some conspiracy brain rot

[@timeisahumanconstruct9251]

​@@dtfech you mad because after the ncaa vacates the last three seasons then michigan hasn't beaten OSU since 2011 and won a conference since 2004 lol

[@heartbreak25]

@@dtfech Changing the entire coaching staff hasn't been done before? You think PSU and OSU have the same coaching staffs since 2018? Gattis used to be on PSU's coaching staff before UM. 😂 If stealing doesn't help then why do it? Why would anyone invest that much time, energy, and risk into doing something that doesn't work? Where was this offensive line when it mattered? UM is on a 6 bowl game losing streak? Another coincidence?

[@heartbreak25]

@@bucks33331 That's why it's 10x worse. They cheated when they didn't have to cheat. But if you look at Harbaugh's pre-cheating record he clearly couldn't coach and win with talent alone. That's the only way to explain how they dominate OSU and then give up 51 to TCU just 2 games later. The question is whether UM is the team that destroys OSU and PSU, or gets embarrassed by UGA and TCU? The answer is probably in the middle which is why they cheat to tip the scales in their favor.

[@Hartman4Heisman]

How refreshing to see a prominent talking head be objective in the matter and actually base their take off of evidence and critical reasoning instead of being emotional or biased. Thanks Josh!!

[@nathonsibley817]

💯💯💯

[@dirtyhiggins5484]

That's kinda Josh's thing.

[@Ebag.Muyami]

What evidence?

[@theewoodpce]

he’s pretty good at this whole thing

[@jasonmcbride6458]

While you’re thinking Josh, could you let him know that University of Michigan is in Ann Arbor and not Lansing? Thanks.

[@jeffrudzinski]

It's called circumstantial evidence. Put simply, the fact that the card is laminated (they don't have laminating machines on the sidelines) mean that he came into the game with that card, which means he know OSU's signals before the game and the only way that could be the case is if he scouted those signals at other games...

[@mytidleycanwink.4692]

It was the FIRST DRIVE of the game!

[@1imsoconfused]

Hey player - just so you know. that is not against the rules. You can scout at other games and do it as many times as you want with as many people as you want. What you CANT do is record those games and rewatch them for "personal" use. What do you think teams do when they watch film of there opponents? Black out the sideline so they cant see the signs? Cmon kid, grow up.

[@derekbanks7377]

Dude OHio already said they changed their plays before the game!

[@mateocruz8147]

@@1imsoconfusedtypically all-22 film doesn’t show the sideline relaying in plays at all. So they don’t have to black it out anyways

[@charliecmo]

They have video evidence, text messages implicating others who were involved and digital fingerprints all over the place. More stuff keeps coming out by the day.

[@drizzle452]

I keep hearing that it’s not that much of an advantage. I never played college football but, I dunno…it seems kinda beneficial to me. Let’s consider 2nd down and mid: If I played safety and I knew it was gonna be a run, I’m cheating up a few steps. It’s often the difference between 3rd and long or 3rd and short.

[@cliftonconnor9389]

Right. It may not benefit you on every play, but it will put you in the position to maximize the benefit of a play.

[@Techfanatic73]

I see those defense plays and those low scores. I think this helps on defense much more than offense. Although on the other side of that they have not played one good team this year. They literally have the weakest schedule of all. Total nobodies so far.

[@smittyDXPS3]

I'd sure like to know my opponents plays exactly when I'm on Madden

[@HyzersGR]

Notice how all the NFL players who spoke about this say it's a big joke. JJ Watt, Aaron Rodgers, Coach Prime, Jeff Saturday, etc.

[@Doc_Boots]

NFL has headsets and no signs or hand signals….. the headsets are there to prevent this exact situation……

[@HyzersGR]

@@Doc_Boots players use signals all the time on the field to relay information. QBs audible plays all the time with hand signals.

[@kylez9094]

This just tells me they need to put comms in qb’s helmets so they can relay plays easily

[@dragonsurge1]

I agree. It’s not a minor advantage if Michigan was going to these lengths to steal signs. Using comms seems like common sense.

[@bigike33]

When you start pissing Vegas off; you’re gonna get caught. The house always wins.

[@Grumpy_Bomber]

😂

[@janetpartyka5968]

The NCAA is losing control so they are grasping to hold on. Harbaugh makes them look silly and it pisses them off. MICHIGAN just needs to stay focused, go about their business and everything will take care of itself.

[@donyoung7874]

How is the NCAA losing control? If there was no "there" there, why did Michigan put Stalion on suspension? The last 2 years of your winning, after a 10 year drought and humiliation, we've come to find may have been helped by sign stealing. Except for your beatdown by TCU in the playoffs. You didn't win that one because you didn't know who you would be facing in that game. You roll over Ohio State somehow, and they went on to face #1 powerhouse Georgia, who squeaked out a win in the final minutes against the Buckeyes by the score 42-41. I'm sure there's no truth to Wolverines spying on their opponents. Losers At Best.

[@Captain_Cups]

As soon as Harbaugh says for the NCAA to distribute the billions they make every year to the players, now the entire program is under a microscope. They don’t want him to start a movement of taking their money

[@igorbittner8483]

I wish the worst for Michigan

[@JW-28]

We wish the worst for u too, Buckeye.

[@newyorker3556]

@@JW-28I bet you scared to play them last game of the season 😂 chicken

[@wolverineeagle]

I wish the worst for you.

[@veryinteresting591]

😂

[@pocketrealitty]

Harbaugh’s cooked! All of your good players will be poached by other teams. Back to irrelevance for big blue! You remember that right!? Wasn’t that long ago! 😂

[@dcampbell97]

I am a huge Michigan fan. If they did something illegal they should be punished accordingly. In the end this is just football.....there are so many worse things in the world happening right now I am definitely way more concerned about.

[@zachh.9855]

Wish more sports fans had this rationale

[@philliprogers6857]

Michigan people tend to be huge. Maybe being healthy would be a good choice and picking a team that doesn't cheat would be good for you. ;)

[@TheRacy]

if it's no big deal then why do it?

[@Brycejugs82]

When it’s your team that’s always the saying, when it’s another school day Ohio state then it’s pitch forks.

[@tonyturley7306]

Was Mr. Stalions "put on leave" because of "an axe to grind," or because the program is concerned that this was an organized violation committed knowingly? I'm an adult so I believe, in fact essentially know, it was the latter. The entire coaching staff should be fired immediately.

[@vinnythewebsurfer]

if the sign stealing truly that endemic amongst the power 5, than that makes Michigan’s situation even more curious because you’d think alot of these programs even if they don’t like eachother would rather keep things quiet or else risk mutually assured destruction. So was whatever Michigan doing that egregious that these schools are willing to risk getting exposed themselves or maybe there really are more innocent schools that were giving credit.

[@chadchadderton]

why do you think very little amount of coaches are vocal about it... it would've been rival boosters/board members who complained to the NCAA unaware of their own guilt.

[@SR-hf3hx]

​@@chadchaddertonnaa it's actually an alumnus of michigan who hates Harbaugh...he's friends with the AD who also hates harbaugh....he's the leak and he's on the ncaa board of infractions...that may help michigan for bias

[@gmh471]

This is not really coming from coaches. Also, I do think that with NIL, which has effectively legalized bagmen, programs will be more apt to turn their rivals in. Before, there was always a risk of "if I turn them in because of bagment, someone might come after us and find something that we did not know about." That risk is now gone.

[@Theprccollector]

Not to sound snarky or a know it all but I swear on both of my kids that before I clicked on this video I knew Josh was going to take the long way around this whole thing and this whole video was just going to be him talking a lot about nothing.

[@paulmayer8654]

Why do you think that it was the small programs who allegedly brought the allegations to the NCAA and not Ohio State even though apparently OSU knew what was going on?

[@sarahihm5020]

If the rumors are true that some have already suggested to sportsbooks to just completely take Michigan lines off the board, I think there's no end to the creative possibilities of how non-NCAA entities can "punish" Michigan. I truly don't think it's out of the realm of possibility for the CFP to exclude Michigan because of this. You don't mess with the money.

[@ytadventurer9170]

Yeah, no. Sportsbooks aren't going to do anything to prevent themselves making money. There may be a slew of things coming Michigan's way, but that's unlikely to be one of them.

[@greksgfx5862]

Michigan is a huge market, just from a business standpoint it hurts them to punish michigan like this (especially with other power 5 schools likely doing the same thing)

[@dragonsurge1]

@@greksgfx5862You’re underestimating the value of consumer confidence. It’s very hard to get that back once it’s gone.

[@carseye1219]

First of all, I really don't want anything to happen to Michigan this year, other than PSU & OSU beating them. I just want to end, forever, UM's arrogant "holier-than-thou" stance, that a "Michigan Man" always does things the "right way." That ended with Bo. They're as mercenary as everybody else.

[@albertforpresident6022]

They obviously didn’t buy tickets to any TCU games. Lololololololol. 😂

[@WickedlyMe328]

As a lifelong Buckeye fan, this doesn’t surprise me about Michigan. They are 3-19 since 2001 against us, but they only want to talk about the last 2 years! Let’s see, here’s why they won! They cheated!

[@michaellin5107]

The "everyone else does it" defense didn't work for Lance Armstrong, Barry Bonds, and all of us getting speeding tickets.

[@reedwilkinson8163]

I’m more mad that people think Michigan is the number one team in the country.

[@byronfoots9315]

Big fan of your show Josh! Keep up the good work!

[@tyguin12]

As a Texas fan, this is a nice change of pace. Good luck to Michigan and whatever may come from it. Also, “trying to nail Jell-O to a wall” is my new favorite saying. 😂

[@GPrice-mg8mi]

For a Program that hasn’t won a National title since 1997 there is a lot of haters in here.

[@timeisahumanconstruct9251]

if you think truthers are haters then you are correct.

[@GPrice-mg8mi]

@@timeisahumanconstruct9251 Casual

[@timeisahumanconstruct9251]

@@GPrice-mg8mi sorry i don't speak gen z

[@CertifiedClapaholic]

_But another coach with Big Ten and SEC experience asked what the big deal was in practical terms. Between the TV broadcast, coaches' tape and what fans film with their phones and post online, the coach said there's more than enough footage that's accessible without ever leaving the office. "Anything that happens in the public eye hasn't gone too far," the coach said. "To be honest, I can watch TV copy [of] two to three games and get everything I need."_ _Sign stealing, whether legal or illegal "is incredibly rampant in this business," a longtime Power 5 assistant said. Ohio State defensive coordinator Jim Knowles told ESPN in December that he estimates 75% of teams do it in some form._ - ESPN, "What college football coaches are saying about sign stealing", dated 10/24/2023 Everyone can stop acting like Michigan is gaining any kind of advantage with this now 💀💀💀💀💀💀💀

[@debrenner5570]

You can not get sideline signs, this is totally false unless you're getting from fans and what fans are sending in their iphone vids? Ridicuous...you're cheaters and Harbaugh is finished.

[@drizzle452]

Well, why then spend thousands on tickets and send people to do it? And if “everyone” is guilty of doing this, what made other teams say “they’re out of control” and open themselves up to investigations? UM had to be doing something that violated the honor amongst thieves code. I know that if I were doing this, I’d be damn sure to have counter-surveillance to protect my signs and bust the hypocrite snitches out there. We’ll definitely see if this is as rampant as everyone else says. UM has to know where the bodies are buried in some other programs.

[@ytadventurer9170]

More than 75% of people drive over the speed limit. Michigan is running a stop sign doing 30 over in a school zone in a blazing gold sports car right in front of half a dozen cops.

[@johnpruneda53]

I like what you said about this Josh,you and Joel Klatt are the only 2 saying your neutral on this and not to assume until all the facts are out,and don't punish the kids for what some coach may or may not of done

[@jeffrittenhouse7464]

Bigger question is how they had the signals identified prior to the start of the OSU game......unless they did the advance recording

[@jamietwigg4845]

Day said in a PUBLIC announcement that HE changed the signals before last years game. So that excuse doesn't work

[@LT33013]

@@jamietwigg4845you do know it’s impossible to change all of your signs in one week right? I would think with all that high level football you’ve been around, you’d know that. Stop trying to justify this cheating, it’s pathetic.

[@Lock3d8]

@@LT33013it’s not impossible at all? What head coach would keep the same signs they’ve been using all season for plays when they play Alabama or UofM or OSU? are you smoking meth? Let me ask you this. How could he steal signs if he was never there? If someone else was in the seat that they placed there, maybe you could begin to say they did it. Also, what is wrong with watching film? Every team could just watch the game live and record it to watch and steal signs if they do chose to do that. Every argument against UM has zero backing with proof. Can’t wait till you eat your own words buddy.

[@wattsinc.]

​@@Lock3d8a week with students and requirements is impossible

[@MVP2.1]

The burden of proof is on the accusers

[@timeisahumanconstruct9251]

have you not heard about all the proof? the burden is now on michigan to defend against that proof

[@andrewgorenc9160]

Trust me it’s coming

[@mirondover6059]

@@timeisahumanconstruct9251what proof???????

[@jessepaiz6356]

It's not a patricurly high burden. This isn't a criminal case. All that is required is for it to be more likely than not that the violation happened.

[@OriginalRMG]

hearing vs seeing, no one has seen any proof@@timeisahumanconstruct9251

[@sambass3284]

"Up in Lansing, Michigan" 😂😂😂 yeah I'd be concerned too SMH

[@cliftonconnor9389]

I caught that. 😅

[@JamesonSteward]

As an Ole Miss fan who remembers the end of the Hugh Freeze era, that "lack of institutional control" charge will bury your program for a while.

[@Barefootseal_66]

It show's you the level of involvement Conner had with the staff taking away any plausible deniability of who Conner is or what his role with the team during games is.

[@nikitanosikovg2703]

Your friends at CFB Nerds are on point, regarding this topic.

[@jkmarshall3553]

Wow, from the look of that schedule, Michigan's season really starts 11/11 and ends 11/25. Come on man! That schedule is weak a f!

[@nathankindel9339]

Rutgers has 6 wins. Unlv has 6 wins. Minnesota won at Iowa. The schedule isnt great, but its a little better than its been made out to be.

[@dragonsurge1]

@@nathankindel9339Rutgers was a good win but the others…

[@peterzogbi4361]

Im a buckeyes fan. I dont like it when any team cheats in the NCAA even if it may benefit the Buckeyes. The idea of sports is to compete to see who is the best at a sport. Cheating and the punishments for cheating get in the way of that process. I want to see Michigan fall not because they cheated, but because we beat them.

[@mrnobunnyzone9433]

Also a BUCKEYE fan an I can't stand Michigan or thier colors or how their stadium looks nothing about them lol but,it sucks for their players because they are just doing what play is called an that their talent takes over at that point...

[@Im__juju]

They won’t fall this season.. whatever happens if anything happens I doubt it will be done this season. So at least for the near future we will get another huge game this year with everything on the line. Michigan will lose all their starters too the draft next year anyway. It’s going too be a battle in Ann Arbor〽️

[@livejames9374]

It appears that OSU lost twice recently because of cheating. Knowing the opposing teams plays is a significant advantage. Having harsh consequences will hopefully deter other teams from attempting such thing in the future.

[@Im__juju]

@@livejames9374 they chnaged the signals prior too the Michigan game & still lost.. relax buddy

[@salbarrett7956]

How the fuck can you say you're an Ohio state fan and be upset about ncaa violations? Are you fucking kidding me?

[@qtipmotha]

I dont know if you mentioned it but that play where the Michigan players are all pointing pass was the first series of the game. Pretty unlikely that Michigan figured the signals out during the game.

[@kesselrunheroj8497]

Josh - how is Michigan legally get an opposing teams hand signals, prior to a game with enough time to laminate a sheet? Any guesses as to how that information would be legally obtained??

[@vinnyv949]

If teams are noticing Michigan players signaling run or pass across the field from their own sideline, anyone is going to think something is off here. I’m sure this is what Greg Schiano at Rutgers was referencing early this season.

[@mrkennady]

Did you just fly in from stupid town? The entire sideline yells run or pass every snap stupid.

[@JW-28]

Im sure Greg Schiano is a squeaky clean character. Everybody cheats. There are billions of dollars on the line. Its cutthroat.

[@korreaction7296]

Schiano was referencing the refs and some of the flags...

[@rayelee1301]

Schiano was talking about the refs...this has been confirmed so much in the past week. And no, the video of a team "reacting" to an audible isnt anything new. Geezus, the takes lately

[@vinnyv949]

@@rayelee1301 you Michigan fans are something else. If you want to stick your heads in the ground as the mountains of evidence builds against your program that’s your business. Also don’t take the Lord names to defend a college football team. That’s gross and reprehensible.

[@edosuhendra840]

I guess last year Xichigan forget to buy ticket at TCU hahhaha

[@nathankindel9339]

Spelled Michigan wrong

[@theisland2722]

Josh Pate going down the middle so that way everyone is appeased and doesn’t lose viewers??? Shocking….

[@dragonsurge1]

I’m an OSU fan but I respect his analysis here. Michigan looks guilty but it’s easy for public opinion to become an echo chamber. Until we get to see all the evidence, we can’t say for sure how this is going to end.

[@winnemucca-sk5392]

I hear people saying this across. The tickets being purchased is interesting. They say he didn't have much of a salary, but he bought premium tickets and paid for travel. I just wonder how long that part will take to come out. This kind of a team and season doesn't come around often.

[@R2W419]

To all my Michigan fans don’t try n argue with these haters no matter what happens or the penalty given this will only light the fire in our players even more and we will continue to dominate the big ten and the country for years to come. GO BLUE!!!!

[@Puff-EJ]

No one is hating on those players... this is a coaching thing

[@Bakarost]

Perfect timing for my increasingly annoying michigan co worker who wont shut up about how big blue is back

[@skibbyb]

If you don't think knowing another team's play call is advantageous, let me remind you of the Super Bowl between the Oakland Raiders and the Tampa Bay Bucs. Jon Gruden was the head coach for the Raiders, then was hired by the Bucs. In Gruden's first year, the Bucs faced the Raiders in the SB and beat them quite handily. The Raiders offense said after the game it was like the Bucs knew the offensive play calls before the play happened. Why? BC Gruden already knew all the Raiders signals from being the HC there. Same is true of the Patriots and the Astros.

[@golfmaniac]

Anyone on the Bucs with an ounce of brains would have known that, and changed their signals before that game, and probably did, if they didn't they deserve the loss due to stupidity.

[@mikethomas860]

Josh staying on the fence and playing both sides. Well done Josh.

[@dragonsurge1]

He’s not riding the fence since he gave his opinion that Michigan is guilty. I think it’s good analysis to acknowledge that he hasn’t seen the evidence yet so he’s only speculating.

[@trmullins2]

TTUN couldn’t be OSU fairly so they resorted to cheating is the gist

[@nathankindel9339]

The gist is that hopefully Michigan's wins the title and nothing happens so us Michigan fans can enjoy that

[@DeVineFate]

OSU was manhandled 2 years in a row, especially at the line of scrimmage. OSU lost because they weren't the better team.

[@spunky181]

Funny Tressel was fired for something less then this

[@nathankindel9339]

Yup fired for wearing sweater vests

[@david3oSeven]

All I really know is the optics of this story are extraordinary. Gonna be a wild ride.

[@tabc123]

I don’t think harbaugh stays coach by the time they travel to penn st. Through resignation or firing. Something big is coming, so far this is on par with the Houston Astros scandal.

[@JarrettBarker]

Nice to finally see why Michigan became good overnight. Literally have to know the plays to win

[@JimBobson-r4y]

ha ha ha

[@derekbanks7377]

Funny for two years knowbody say anything until this year when they know they’re going to lose 😅

[@timhindman3029]

The University of Michigan is in Ann Arbor, not Lansing. East Lansing would love nothing more than for Michigan to get hammered with this.

[@Donovan_Williams]

Josh is right that the NCAA will take a long time to act. But when they do act, among other things, they could cause Michigan to forfeit wins. The CFP committee could recognize this and choose not to include Michigan.

[@cliftonconnor9389]

I wonder if this will affect Heisman voting also?

[@vflgbo1981]

This cost Tennessee an earned appearance in the Playoffs!!! A COMPLETELY DISGRACEFUL TRAVESTY!! Recall the W from SC!!!

[@mr.green2341]

What that video from the Ohio State game last year shows is that this guy wasn’t “just some low level guy”, as one of their talking points claimed to try and distance themselves from this d-bag. Maybe in title only, but he obviously had the coordinator’s ear as he was right at his side with his ill-gotten data.

[@jamietwigg4845]

Lol OSU fans grasping at straws. Day said in an interview he changed the signs before last years game.

[@robrishel5101]

@@jamietwigg4845 So the cheating was okay then ?

[@diavolos2939]

GOING DOWN IN FLAMES !!!!!!! EVEN DID IT TO BOWLING GREEN , ROFL@@jamietwigg4845

[@jamietwigg4845]

@@robrishel5101 sign stealing wasn't the reason OSU lost, so it didn't matter that game.

[@robrishel5101]

@@jamietwigg4845 Whatever helps you sleep at night.

[@tishbite606]

Thanks Josh. I live in Northeast Ohio so no TUN fan but I agree. This is not as big a deal as the media wants to make it. However the NCAA has historically made HUGE mountains out of tiny molehills.

[@GBU61]

If the administration has any credibility to the institution, it will suspend him and offer steps that will be taken immediately to show it is doing what it can to repair the situation. Hopefully a news conference will happen soon.

[@gregjacksun]

I think the general populace would agree that they just need to clean house at the end of the season so we can drop this crap and play football. Get rid of the current upper staff. I'm in this camp - but I certainly don't want anything to happen this season. I need to see how the Buckeyes fare in Ann Arbor. It will reveal a great deal no matter who wins.

[@Lora-G]

Something about Harbaugh and his weird energy will always attract conflicts and strangeness. I've been vibing him out since he worked for the NINERS. Same weirdness there... he's got karma that can't be ignored😢

[@bunjidogg]

I think the reason this could be really bad for UM is that Harbaugh is already under investigation for a level 1 violation, failure to cooperate in the hamburger case. That will elevate the severity in the current sign-stealing case. I don't know if the current case is Level I or II, or if it could result in vacated victories or bowl ban, but I would be very concerned if a UM fan.

[@thomascook4318]

I remember when Ohio State vacated 12 victories in 2010 and a Big 10 title for tattoo gate. We lost Jim Tressel as a result. Then Urban Meyer (83 - 9 at OSU) was basically forced out because of Zack Smith. These things are very painful for alums/fans to endure.

[@zacharypaulus6028]

Yeaaaa majority of us could care a less bud. We know we’re going to smash PSU and OSU this year. Players in the media are laughing at this because everyone does it. It’s a whopping who cares

[@christhornton1785]

When SMU was given the "death penalty" years ago, it was basically cause they were already under investigation when they continued to "cheat". Not saying this is the case with UM, but you may see a correlation.

[@bunjidogg]

Everyone doesn't have a rogue staffer who sends scouts to opponents games to steal signs over a three year period. You think the majority of UM fans don't care about vacated wins and a possible bowl ban and cheating for three years?@@zacharypaulus6028

[@jonm4453]

The idea that SMU and this situation are even remotely similar is one of the crazier things I’ve read in a while.

[@444chroma]

Well that certainly helps explain Michigan's miraculous turn around from 2020.

[@TheMacC117]

Two win team to a playoff team overnight? I should say so.

[@justinhunter7867]

A post season ban this year would be hilarious.

[@davislewisville6171]

That video was the first play of the game!!

[@lightschunk]

This would happen in the year where we look primed to win a national title.

[@dot3079]

BGSU would look primed for a natty against that weak ass schedule bruh.

[@rodrigok1220]

@@dot3079did you know Georgia currently through Oct 21 has a weaker schedule?

[@eseir64]

@@rodrigok1220 Neither school should be top two based on Merit

[@maar9526]

They’ve been primed for the past 2 seasons. Choked both times

[@eseir64]

@@maar9526 This is what happens when they fail to "scout" those two opponents. Had they done it like they did with all the Big10 schools, they probably would have gotten through.

[@1980hgf]

Unbiased Nole fan here. Josh hits it on the head. Looks like Michigan will get a penalty but not the death penalty. It's in the middle of the madness.

[@Captain_Cups]

I keep hearing “vacated wins” talk, none of us have any idea what kind of punishment is going to be handed, especially something as big as that. People are jumping to conclusions hard and the investigation isn’t going to end until next year at the earliest

[@twogruden9943]

The rule is just a type 2 violation which is a minor infraction. That fact seems to get lost

[@gmh471]

Fun fact, there hasn't even been a notice of violations served on Michigan, so everything we are hearing now, frankly, should not have seen the light of day but for the NCAA's desire to destroy Jim Harbaugh. This is as unseemly as it can be. The goal -- convict Michigan in the eyes of the media and public. That's more potent than actually having to invetigate and prove their case -- to themselves. No doubt, Harbaugh will be coaching in the NFL in 2024, so, mission accomplished.

[@ytadventurer9170]

I'm more interested in what the CFP committee and Big 10 do. The NCAA habitually doesn't actually punish the wrong-doers, they punish the people taking over for them after they leave. The conference and playoff committee can act much more immediately. If Michigan actively cheated this year, (all signs point toward the fact that they did) the Big 10 and playoff committee should disqualify them from the post-season THIS year.

[@wyattlada9985]

@@twogruden9943 it may be a level 2 infraction itself but compound that with the level 1 recruiting violation and if they found out he knew that’s another level 1 violation for lying to the ncaa and being uncooperative

[@twogruden9943]

@@wyattlada9985 If being uncooperative was a violation, you might be surprised how many schools have taken that route. And no, these don't compound, they are separate. And BTW, the NCAA has served no official notification of violations to M fore any of this, it has all been a public lynching.

[@joeybennett1491]

Why can’t we just ridicule Harbaugh for having sleepovers with recruits. This will probably amount to nothing 🤷‍♂️

[@myguyTrevorSabo]

For all the support M*ch*g@n fans gave us during tattoo gate I wish the same for them. You get what you give 😉

[@timebomb42]

Wouldn't it be awful if Michigan had to vacate wins from the previous couple seasons. Including ohio st, you finally beat these guys for the first time in a decade and it gets revoked because you're accused of cheating.

[@KingKongbabe]

Actually it would be proper

[@originalmike9712]

We all have takes on this. Many of them biased for varying reasons. My take is that the people involve in investigating this will find the facts and actual evidence to determine what action needs to be taken. Hopefully they are unbiased and balanced about the decision they make based on the actual evidence they have been able to assemble. I feel this channel does a good job of presenting actual facts and still gives an opinion that is unbiased. Doesn't mean his opinion is right or wrong, but it is genuine. Gotta love that!!

[@ben_f3117]

As a Michigan fan and alum, this is pretty much where I’m at. I’ll enjoy this year for what it’s worth. As more info and details come out, I’ll see how screwed we really are. At least I’ll have the Lions, right?

[@garystought]

At least you can admit it!

[@christhornton1785]

Amazingly they're leading their conference. The Lions, that is.

[@brentj.peterson6070]

Weak.

[@dustinschalk8825]

All bias aside …Michigan is in the top brands in cfb. And obviously the big ten . On a year where they are this good and have a legit chance to do it all…I dork think they would punish them early . Everyone involved still wants the money and tv ratings …and all that revenue…that would come with Michigan in big games . I can’t see anyone punishing them this year . It’s all about money . Always.

[@embee9936]

Michigan is in serious trouble. This impacted the current season.

[@nathankindel9339]

Hope they win the title and get to keep it. That would be awesome!

[@lsr16]

Most people do not understand the purpose of the rule against "off campus" scouting. The rule was enacted to keep a level playing field for all teams in a league whether it is the Big Ten, SEC or Pac 12. in the Big Ten only the big programs (OSU, Mich and possibly Penn st.) would be tempted to do "off campus" scouting. The Northwesterns, Purdues and Indianas of the Big Ten do not do "off campus" scouting. "Scouting" here is not just watching the game, rather it the hard work of "sign stealing": attending 6 or so OSU games, videotaping OSU's 3 different sign signalers, and use of UM computers to synthesize all the info. Is this what college football has become? The NCAA did not know about today's technology but they were wise when in the 1990s they adopted the rule against "off campus" scouting.

[@jcqb13]

I waited for judgment but with bar to radios, this feels very bad and may explain some odd results in game. Blow out OSU lose to TcU?

[@canzior]

get smoked by Michigan (after admitting they changed the signs), hang tight with a more talented UGA? Lose to VT, win a national title? You can play that game all day

[@razor7241]

Josh you are wrong on the plausible deniability. NCAA rules state that the head coach is responsible for ANY member of his staff. PERIOD!

[@cliftonconnor9389]

If it wasn't cheating, why the no-show at the OSU-Penn State game? Didn't he donate the tickets to a veteran or something like Pat McAfee suggested? 😂

[@Gas_man]

He was suspended with pay.

[@cliftonconnor9389]

He hired people to attend the games. What happened to them? I know, it is a bit of a rhetorical question.

[@joejackson5219]

Love Josh Pate, best college football show on the net.

[@genxsports8486]

All of this sign stealing and nobody filmed TCU?, the hell?

[@KingKongbabe]

Nobody thought TCU would make it into the playoffs. Harbaugh is going down & deservedly so.

[@DeVineFate]

@@KingKongbabe TCU had the highest possibility of getting into the playoffs regardless of whether they won or loss their title game. The argument of "nobody thought TCU would get in" is mute.

[@lramage]

I'm a Buckeye fan. Thank you for saying accused. Nothing is a done deal. Wait for all the facts.

[@BIMBA7579-rr6gh]

2021 the ncaa itself sought to get ride of the rule in question, because they said there is little to no competitive advantage.

[@ummagumma7826]

And boy were they wrong as proven by Michigan lately. Good point.

[@vinnyv949]

@@ummagumma7826exactly. They went from bums who canceled the OSU game in 2020 to recapturing their success from the mid 90s.

[@mrkennady]

​@@ummagumma7826you just fly in from stupid town? Ryan Day already said on camera that they changed their sign prior to getting the worst ass whipping in osu history in the past 40 years.

[@ummagumma7826]

@@mrkennady he said on camera? That's serious. That doesn't change anything. UM still stole signs I don't care if they went 0-12 after stealing, they still stole and no B1G team is going to let this fly. UM's only hope is if Charlie Baker is more lenient than Mark Emmert. Don't listen to me I'm just some guy. Those B1G teams have a lot of clout. If this was my team I wouldn't be denying what is coming out. Someone will be held accountable

[@mrkennady]

@@ummagumma7826 it changes everything because it means they weren't doing what they were accused of you stupid.

[@jessehensley1812]

Did you really just say jj is the Heisman favorite LMAO 🤣🤣🤣

[@mrkennady]

All im getting from this is that there's a lot of accusations from butt hurt teams cough* ohio state cough* and no actual evidence.

[@mlbucknut45]

You obviously didn't hear that Vegas was the whistle blower in this. They noticed because of the dramatic swing in odds. You're moving betting lines when you do this, and if I was a betting man, I'd be pissed too. It's no different than shaving points!

[@mrkennady]

@@mlbucknut45 that's not the own you think it is dawg lmao if anything it gives more credibility to my point.

[@charlotteh4310]

No comment on what is being said because I don't know...but I do know that throughout the controversy at UGA stirred up by AJC, Josh was a fair and even-handed voice crying out in the wilderness. I enjoy his take on issues and respect what he has to say. He's definitely a good one.

[@TheAcreanCandidate]

I legitimately feel bad for Michigan fans. Here you were thinking the turnaround happened and in reality your team is the Houston Astros. Your coaching staff tricked the entire country. Just please don't try to defend this. This is the most serious on the field scandal in decades and don't act like it had no effect. You're better than that.

[@chadchadderton]

Probably not even the most serious scandal in the last 12 moths... or the most serious scandal in the big10. Michigan seem to be guilty, but let's not spew out some garbage takes like you just did lmao.

[@Captain_Cups]

Penn State definitely has the most serious scandal in decades, this isn’t even top 10.

[@TheAcreanCandidate]

​​@@chadchaddertonApologies, you're right and I should have clarified. It's the worst on the field scandal in years, not the worst overall one. Sorry for the confusion I typed that fast, just amended the previous comment.

[@marciaace321]

won't lose your credentials with Michigan with this video. That clip you showed is from the first drive of the game. Please explain how the chart was made that fast.... Fab Five part 2. Start working on the 30 for 30 $$$$$$

[@davidcook7847]

I thought it was really unusual that they suddenly got so good so quickly with mid teen talent ratings. Now we know

[@chadchadderton]

I think michigan is guilty... but holy hell that was a terribly casual take. Michigan is good, really good... and they have an abundance of talent. Again, I think they're guilty... but as we're all aware, they aren't the only ones. You still have to play to an elite level, and if their talent is so bad like you claim... they wouldn't play as good as they do.

[@howdave]

talk about a lazy take.. "They cheated so everyone else must also be doing it." @@chadchadderton

[@chadchadderton]

If you're going to attempt to quote me, don't be pathetic and blatantly lie. If you want to make things up and embarrass yourself, be my guest... just keep my name out of it.@@howdave

[@Captain_Cups]

They won 10 games 3 out of 5 seasons under Harbaugh before 2021. They’ve always been good under him, just switched mentality to beat OSU. It’s weird how people act like Michigan is physically unable to beat Ohio State without cheating just because of the past 20 years. The rivalry has had historical swings and it seems to be swinging the other way now (unless all these ACCUSATIONS are confirmed)

[@howdave]

cope however you have to. Just calling out casual takes when I see them too.@@chadchadderton

[@Swampkings]

Michigans record when no one was allowed in the stands (to record) 2-4…….

[@bigdaddy3919]

I thought that every team sent scouts to games of future opponents for ever. Is sign stealing really of value ? Wouldn't teams change their signals and the way they're delivered on a week to week basis ? Something doesn't smell right here.

[@JW-28]

They do. This is a bunch of horse shite. Only stupid Buckeye fans are making a big deal about it.

[@zacharyrogerssr9331]

Knowing if it's a pass or run on 3rd and short is absolutely pivot. Auburn and Alabama have did this for years and it's the reason why smaller schools with less talent has to run RPOs in order to be successful. I think Missouri had early success because no one was scouting them early on and I think A&M dropes its blue blood schemes when Sumlim and Manziel moved on

[@keithmichael5839]

Not trying to be snarky or an ass, but you've never played football, have u? Signal stealing IN-GAME is perfectly legal, and knowing an opponent's signals is tremendously helpful. This is a VERY simplistic and hypothetical example; if I know your signal for an inside run, I can then signal my defense into a stacked box and provide more defenders than the offense can block, and I can stuff ur run. If I don't know your signal for an inside run and my defense is in pass prevent with deep safeties and man coverage on the outside, and Im sending a LB on a stunt blitz around the d-end, then Im leaving the middle open to the inside run. What UM is doing, however, isnt stealing signals "in-game," they're buying opponents' game tickets behind the bench, sending agents to those games to record opponents signals, then receiving those video recordings, analyzing and parsing the information, and stealing signals that way, and 'that way' is HIGHLY illegal in college football.

[@kevinpowers2959]

In 2021 the NCAA debated getting rid of this rule because they didn't believe there was any competitive advantage

[@donyoung7874]

It's one thing to scout a team. It's another thing to record their signs so you know what's coming when you face them in the future. All teams scout and all teams try to figure out what the other side is doing during the game but you can't record the signs of your opponents before you face them. That's next level and not hard to understand.

[@newyorker3556]

Not a Michigan fan but seems like the ncaa hates harbough from the day he left the nfl for college and btw Ohio fans stop making yourselves look pathetic by making excuses for the last two seasons face it they won get over it

[@MH-dj5im]

"Everyone on the OSU side is coaching. Everyone on the UM side is cheating." Not only DC signaling, a bunch of Michigan players were signaling same time. They all knew it was a passing offence coming.

[@Doc_Boots]

Michigan to get the ole SMU treatment

[@ummagumma7826]

hope everyone on the staff is held accountable for doing this to the program. Those rings mean nothing now

[@joshmiller6421]

what rings?

[@ummagumma7826]

@@joshmiller6421 Conference champ rings

[@antoinejohnson5371]

Dropping to your knees won't earn you anymore respect quite frankly most likely the opposite

[@Hartman4Heisman]

You are quite literally the 2nd Michigan fan I've seen since this story dropped who is demanding accountability if proven true, and isn't trying to justify it or downplay what has potentially been going on for 2 and a half years. Thank you for showing some integrity.

[@ummagumma7826]

@@Hartman4Heismansorry I'm not actually a UM fan, they are ok I like their history and all but not sure why I said that. Its odd true UM fans are so defensive. Know what I think? I think they haven't won a national championship in sooo long they could actually taste victory going to bed with smiles on their faces and now its being yanked away from them. They will do anything to keep that dream alive.

[@benroche3157]

“Shift into last dance mode” 😭 that’s when you know it’s over 😂