Joshua Schmidt Reacts to The Loss of the Midcore Yu-Gi-Oh Player

[@senatheEND]

Josh im not gonna sugar coat it, your out of touch. Skill ≠ Deck Investment or Meta Adoption, Many skilled players may not have the resources to constantly acquire top-tier meta decks or chase after new releases, but that doesn't diminish their game knowledge or strategic prowess. Players often perform exceptionally with non-meta or rogue decks simply because of deep familiarity and expertise with their chosen strategy. Skill and deck choice are not always directly correlated. Strong local communities provide critical environments for players to improve through practice, discussion, and competition. Many top players(including yourself) began by dominating local scenes before transitioning to larger tournaments. (SUPPORT YOUR LOCALS) A local player's skill level isn't inherently inferior just because they don’t compete at nationals or YCS events. Some choose to play locally for various reasons Comments like "You expect to just pick up any deck and win a ycs with it playing against better players and playing worse then them." diminish the diverse paths to success in the game. It implies that only the most financially or meta-invested players deserve respect, ignoring the hard work and dedication of others. The comment reflects a narrow view that overlooks the diversity of player experiences and the critical role local communities play in competitive ecosystems. The real answer is we need a format to support these lower fan favorite decks, this product line could also allow them innovate in terms of design where yugioh has been sorely lacking.

[@waiyon1951]

It can also help with having a ceiling with powercreep. Im just afraid of when will main deck cards start being able to doing 4 things in one turn.

[@silentobserver888]

Couldnt agree more. Players need to be incentived to come to play without thinking they need to drop $1000.00 to top a damn locals. OCG doesnt have this issue in regards to price to performance which the TCG does have this major issue. META and tier 1 and tier 0 decks have for the most part been financial barriers that the broader community has always faced and it truly restricts access to newer players. Some people think they are good because they only play meta, and some players can win even with tier 2 to rouge level strategies because the skill invested into the game over years like you mentioned. Im at a place where I am a family man, I have my own endevors that are more important over having the newest meta deck these days, (though ever since Dualist Alliance days ive attempted to play meta relevant decks and seen good results at locals.) I come from a locals in colorado where pro players are abundantly around. People like landon who recently has become a multiple YCS winning level player, ive played with for years, BB has been on feature matches a few times and now owns a shop. The best locals we had at one point brought Patrick Hoban back into the game and players like Pak came to play a few times and Chris Leblanc and other "pros". You could not choose a more competitive place to play during these times and it cost significant money to keep up. The average player isnt going to invest that much energy, and money consistently and have to repeat the cycle again each year to keep up when they find a favorate deck. Now the best way to play is to know in advance what you want to play but for new players and the average player who is just locals bond it doesnt make sense to have to spend $400-$1200.00 to win a locals. So they settle on less expensive decks and the win rates arent the same as the power creep beast of tier 1. So they become target practice for the local best players (in my situation these players turn out to become pro level).

[@bej4987]

Do competive players really just not understand?

[@Cybertech134]

Being competitive doesn't make one smart. It just means they can play a game well and optimize the fun out of it.

[@Shadowx157]

Competitive players see the game through Copium and Power fantasies, So yeah I guess it's hard for them to really understand people don't like being T1 Deck's test subjects and punching bags at every locals

[@W_Sir_Morpheus]

Yes

[@Guy-yo1he]

@@Shadowx157 is that really the only option? I’m just thinking about the near future and just giving my humble opinion as someone who bought his first deck in 2023 and played my first locals last year. Personally I’m playing crystrons and blueyes primite going forward because when crystron support was announced every single card was available for about $10 I grabbed them, and I also got the primite cards for blue eyes once they were seeing success in the OCG and were still incredibly cheap….also for the not as near future I bought all I needed to play evil twins orcust and @ignister all for very cheap since they have support coming….again I’m pretty new not to yugioh but the tcg specifically and yea the price of mulcharmy and fiendsmith sucks for sure but I feel like there’s other options at locals against the meta decks than just being a punching bag if you put in a bit of work to be proactive, at least in my experience 🤷🏽‍♂️

[@Guy-yo1he]

@@Shadowx157surely there are other options lol

[@bladthebozo]

I don’t admire Schmidt’s ignorance of who the “mid core player” is. He mentioned that essentially the super competitive players that are bringing heavy competitiveness to their small scaled tournaments do it because they enjoy doing it. What’s left out of that fact is that the player on the receiving end is NOT getting any enjoyment out of being a test dummy for the super competitive player. THAT is the mid core player. It’s so bad to the point that it’s not pet deck users that are losing drive to continue playing, it’s the players that are just on a deck that’s just a smidge below tier 1 that are getting decimated and CANNOT keep up that are getting blown out the water and losing motivation to stay in the game.

[@bladthebozo]

I am grateful that there’s a reaction to Paul’s vid that’ll rack up a lot of attention but the lack of awareness for the other side sucks to see. Wasn’t it about fun? Where’s the passion? Noticing this comment is getting some traction so I’m just leaving some extra 2 cents here. And a solution is most definitely not “put your six sams together and you’ll do fine at locals” Locals are where these top cut decks are ending up now. It’s not the casual setting that it once was considered.

[@lincolnpertuset2980]

Exactly this. I also play magic and you can play jank decks and still get to play and compete. Yugi is so fast you just don't even get to resolve your effects.

[@rushxanthemtcg5607]

This is how anything competitive is and always will be, I don't care what game it is. Yugioh was exactly the same at the beginning, but with even less diversity. A good locals has always had meta decks. If you don't want to lose then play meta.

[@rushxanthemtcg5607]

​@bladthebozo9630 Again, there has always been meta played at a good locals. Nothing has changed in this regard. Nobody is topping with booty ass decks, and nobody ever was. Ideally, the same handful of players should be winning every week because they are simply better than everyone else.

[@bladthebozo]

@ honestly would love for Paul (the person in video being reacted to) to react to this reaction LOL. I think Schmidt’s a bit far gone on the topic. Love his content though and I still huff copium and compete with Melodious because I refuse to break the paywall of fiendsmiths’ engine. (2017 returnee where toss format was in baby stages)

[@brandanjablonski2320]

Pretty insane that your take boils down to "you're just bad at the game because you don't think about the game every waking moment so that's why you can't compete in a place that's supposed to be reserved for casuals but isn't". Literally delusional

[@In.New.York.I.Milly.Rock.]

Gotta love Josh arguing against a point no one made

[@yukotrey9422]

We call that strawmanning 🥳🥳

[@xCorvus7x]

@@yukotrey9422 Only if it's intentional. Wasting over an hour can't be a sane man's intention, so it's more likely that Josh simply misunderstood the point.

[@Alityne73]

1+ hour of Josh missing the point. Generational video

[@Dr.Barber]

This take was so bad I heard about it being bad on other videos and had to come see for myself

[@roysamuels9468]

@@Dr.Barber That's exactly why I'm here.

[@MajorCrasher]

Josh the problem is that *everything* that is not meta is basically garbage at this point, not just old ones getting new support, but new ones like mimighoul too. And almost everyone who is playing Yu-Gi-Oh irl is playing a competitive deck at this point. Yes, even at locals. The power gap between meta deck and other decks didn't use to be so wide. There used to be tiered decks from 1-3 that you could play at locals or a regional and do ok with, not necessarily win the whole tournament but at the least not lose in 1-2 turns every single game. These days you might as well not show up to an event if you're not playing a competitive deck, you won't win a single round, much less a game. Competitive players generally just play whatever the best deck of the format is or the few options close to it. But most other players want the option to play the deck that they have the most fun with even if it's not the most viable, especially when it gets new support. Why bother buying physical cards when every deck you find fun or interesting can't beat Ryzeal or Maliss? Even if you remove the cost of buying cards out of the equation, those non meta decks still wouldn't be viable with expensive staples, and it doesn't make the competitive decks much more appealing for people who weren't already interested in them. There are literal *dozens* of archetypes both new and old that will literally never see play in person because they can't beat a competitive deck and i find that incredibly sad. Yes, you can play some of these with more success in MD but that shouldn't be the only way these decks can exist imo. Not everyone can just find friends who live near them who also want to play rogue decks. A new format that excluded the highest tiered decks would help this situation a little bit but there's also tons of generic staples that contribute to the problem as well. This is a symptom of yugiohs purposeful and rampant powercreep. Yes, Konami needs to sell packs, but other card games have proven time and time again that you don't need to keep making new decks better or ban old decks to get people interested in buying new cards. You just need to make new decks fun, interesting, and viable against current decks. The only real solution is to surgically remove all the problem cards from the new potential format. But the chances of Konami doing this are slim to none, we barely got time wizard and it feels like Konami actively resents doing it. Obviously no one knows what goes on at Konami HQ but it feels like they stopped caring about the actual game a while ago and just want to squeeze as much money out of it as possible.

[@ShroomOfSorrow]

then how do you explain that voiceless voice got third place at the spanish open this weekend? it's a very cheap non meta deck and it won 7 out of 8 rounds against ryzeal, maliss, and all the other meta decks of the format.

[@MajorCrasher]

@ShroomOfSorrow a single outlier doesn't represent the game as a whole. Jesse Kotton could win a ycs with grave keepers tomorrow but that wouldn't mean grave keeper is now a deck that is meta competitive. It just means that incredibly skilled pilots can pull off things that very few others can with the same cards.

[@Cybertech134]

@@ShroomOfSorrow Are you honestly considering "Voiceless Voice" the example of a pet/non-meta deck? How about something not released in the past year, hmm?

[@ShroomOfSorrow]

@@Cybertech134 voiceless voice costs a reasonable amount of money, is a rogue deck, and is by all metrics an off meta deck, but even if you disregard that virtual world won nationals during snake eyes format, sky striker got second place during yubel fire king tenpai format, mermail and memento have been topping for a while, and these are just examples that came to my mind in less than a minute, you can find even more if you look for them

[@unit900000]

@@ShroomOfSorrow bro really said voiceless voice non meta LMAO I do think its possible for non meta decks to do alright but please use a real example 💀

[@TinPrince]

I find it impressive how Josh manages to just completely miss the point of the initial argument. Saying "just go to locals with your bad deck and play out of your ass against the top meta decks" is not a reasonable or sustainable answer to the problem of pack filler cards having no place to be played at a high enough number to which the printing of those cards isn't a waste. It also doesn't foster the kind of gameplay that would exist in this kind of lower power format, because even if YOU are playing something like six sam, if your opponent is playing something like ryzeal or maliss the overall power level of that given format exists at whatever the most powerful deck does.

[@DragonTank1400]

This is so true.

[@MidcoreYugioh]

I completely understand what you are saying and I agree. I think that we need to look at what you are saying though and just point out that meta at a local level is an option. I think the decline in this kind of player doesn’t come from this specific format though. I think that this comes with the past few formats being way above any power level the decks we are talking about can compete at. I’m honestly this “mid level” Yugioh player. I just don’t have the time like I used to and when I did have the time I didn’t want to go play against yubel, snake eye etc. don’t get me started on tenpai. Whoever designed that deck needs to be talked to about card design. Now though I am returning to locals and I’ve gone a good bit over these past few weeks and I’ve had a lot of fun playing voiceless or chimera or buster blader. I think that a better question is should someone be able to walk into a locals with a deck like fabled (with no new support) and compete with ryzeal or maliss? I don’t know. I see both sides. I think that if that could happen the game would be dead because that means that card design has probably become stale. Idk. Just wanted to play devils advocate

[@OsirusHandle]

suprised nobody making the ecological argument. konami printing pack filler is literally manufacturing trash, directly. it goes immediately in the bin

[@admontblanc]

Konami should definitely study implementing tournaments with a format like those you see in Master Duel's side events, where you get a custom banlist where not only are certain carrds banned like in the regular banlist, but also complete archetypes, or most cards within some archetypes, or entire mechanics are banned. This would require them to pre-announce with enough time ahead that such a tournament is scheduled, but I think it could bring in a lot of interest, especially if they play their cards right, like making it at least as rewarding as a regular main event, use Master Duel to organize testing, invite only tournaments to promote it even.

[@luminous3558]

All of that has much more to do with tournaments just being a bad place to play for fun. Locals can be tolerable depending on the amount of meta players at your locals but anything else is gonna be just meta. Thats why master duel is the solution to all these problems because it has a ladder that pretty much matches you with the type of player you wanna play with. Gold and Plat are heaven for these types of players but with a little effort you can take most of these pet decks to diamond or masters. The difference between MD and in-person tournaments is obviously both the cost, travel requirements and the amount of games you can play. Going to locals and playing like 3-4 rounds its much more likely for most of those games to be bad and thus it not feeling worth the effort as opposed to MD where you can just queue up another game.

[@osiobasi]

He just missed the point of the video completely as the video went on

[@ShebbaYoung]

in my opinion, mid-core yu-gi-oh! players gravitate towards master duel. this is why it is popular and well populated.

[@Austin-l1j]

It’s losing players on steam tho

[@kabayanlovesleep281]

​@@Austin-l1jIt's not drastically losing, the playerbase still there but there are some people who stop playing because they don't like the current meta or don't have any deck to build currently and waiting for new support in the future. There are always players who come back when certain pack or card released

[@Austin-l1j]

@@kabayanlovesleep281 that’s true but it’s still bleeding overall players

[@loganglover4320]

That’s even worse .. spending money on virtual cards that I can’t even sell/ trade

[@admontblanc]

@@Austin-l1j how many by percwentage though? There are programs out there that allow you to bot the game so anytime a new version comes out, so every update, it's bound to lose a lot of botters, at least temporarily, also people who get out for a format or two. Overall nobody, or almost nobody quits ygo forever. With Master Duel, if the player has had an account from the start and spent a significant amount of time playing it's highly unlikely the person will quit forever because they will have pet decks with rare foils and rare cosmetics, all these things are like magnets for players to return.

[@AlberichY]

Holy shit, buddy. You really missed the core of the discussion. I mean I know we are all peasants from your perspective, but holy molly.

[@xCorvus7x]

Off-topic but please humour me, if you will: Is this how the phrase „holy molly“ is spelled and meant? Molly as in the name? English isn't my mother tongue, and going by the pronunciation I have heard for this phrase, I would have assumed it's spelled „holy moly“ (both words rhyme and what moly means is unclear; it may not mean anything) but that may have come from another second-language learner.

[@MochiVT_]

@@xCorvus7x It's "holy moly". It doesn't really mean anything nowadays, but as far as I can tell from some quick searching, it's a cleaned up version of "holy moses". However, since it dates back to the 1800s it's just kind of become its own phrase at this point. I like the question though, I didn't know where the phrase came from either until now so I learned something new!

[@AlberichY]

@@xCorvus7x Don't know buddy, just heard it at some moment in time and never really took the time to check the correct spelling as it seems to be a pretty situational phrase. English is also my second language.

[@xCorvus7x]

@@MochiVT_ Yeah, thanks for digging that up (you're welcome, I guess ^^'). I'd say, that expression of surprise, being taken aback one way or another, is just what it means. It's also interesting that this is apparently a version of the call upon a religious figure, toned down in a way that almost sounds like an attempt to make it more child-friendly, similar to the various things people are supposed to say instead of swearing (such as „gosh“ or maybe „heck“).

[@tomahawklegend]

This has definitely missed the point I think. It's not about people with less than meta decks wanting to win tournaments, it's about having a reasonable chance of playing the game. If your deck isn't at least pretty good you usually don't actually get to play your first turn at all. Do 10 games of that in a row with a deck where, even if you did play your first turn it doesn't guarantee a win, and you'll get burnt out and disinterested pretty fast.

[@chicabu67]

Definitely your deck doesn't need to be at least pretty good to have your first turn That is more like the minimum

[@TheMattTrakker]

Dude rode konami so hard it reached his brain

[@MordecaiThe33rd]

Hardcore (or “midcore” I guess) Madolche player here; Paul is 1,000% correct. I’ve tested extensively the deck on DB with about 20 different builds, theories, ratios, approaches etc to make it competitively viable. It just isn’t. This is NOT me complaining about my satellarknight deck that hasn’t seen support since 2017, I’m talking about a deck that received major buffs in 2020 and 2024. I’m thankful for the support, but it seems like a carrot; cashing in on hopefully committed players who don’t want to just be another “meta slave” without actually providing them the tools to be competitive. Don’t get me wrong, I own fiendsmith Ryzeal and am forced to play it at regionals, case tourneys etc and can place / top just fine. But it’s disheartening to see support created for a deck that DOES boost the absolute power level of the deck, but DOESN’T take into consideration the ecosystem into which the deck is being placed. Like, yes, madolches are now stronger after 2024 than they were in 2020, but they’re still about 2/3 years behind. This is not a complaint about current meta (I think we are currently in one of the healthiest metas we’ve seen since the release of the Ishizu cards), but rather the decision by Konami to give buffs to decks that only lead the player to increased frustration and disappointment once realizing that the deck still can’t keep pace with the literal meta the support cards were released into.

[@TenebraeXVII]

Wait didn't Tellarknight just get a wave of new cards less than 2 years ago?

[@CyrusThePalaceKnight]

I couldn't agree more with this. To me, one of the worst feelings in this game is realizing that your favorite deck's new support isn't going to be viable, then having to wait another 4+ years for another chance.

[@soulgrind1642]

It basically comes down to other card games cutting into locals scenes. A "Midcore" Yugioh player basically wants to be able to play their slightly above jank to rogue tier deck in environments where they play even games against other middling decks for a few rounds once or twice a week. Paul is basically lamenting the decline of locals.

[@nachohangover5104]

Well yeah when Yugioh top decks cost as much as building top decks for multiple other games no surprise people are jumping ship.

[@LuisEduardoGalarzaCervantes]

Its funny cuz Joshua Schmidt has been experiencing a similar problem in recent formats himself like getting FTKed by Yubel end boards. From a rogue player's perspective that is what is happening to us too but far more soul crushing. And no it wasn't always like this, cuz the very definition of rogue deck is an anti meta lower tier deck that has a strat that can counter the meta, so as long as you encounter what you are prepared for you will have some good match ups. Now just look at Joshua's duelist cup game play and tell me how playing rogue decks worked out. And this is what you go against every day for example in masterduel ranked. Rogue decks don't get you to play the game anymore right now, you just get completely destroyed and that is a very noticeable power creep spike.

[@AbsurdAsparagus]

@@nachohangover5104 more than that, i dont want to build a new deck every season. i want to build a deck and use it for a couple of years with a few upgrades every once in a while. I dont give a shit about most new architypes. i bought my deck for big chunk of change already, im not spending more money.

[@ak47dragunov]

Locals are definitely a mixed bag. In my experience as a competitive player myself, every locals I've been to has featured nothing less powerful than legit rogue, with most duelists Tier 2 and up with the occasional young kid beginner with a structure deck in a sandwich bag. Sometimes I wish I could find the legendary locals where the supposed Ghostrick, Digital Bug and Chemicritter "communities" that manifest in YT comments hang out so I don't need to stress so much

[@soulgrind1642]

@ Sure you may get paired with the local competitive player for round one but after getting that loss out of the way you'll probably be paired with either worse players or players with worse decks and can proceed to have fun.

[@hoza121]

People who are just casually competitive just want strong tier 2 options. But apparently Josh can't grasp that? It isn't people just want to play a pet deck, but more so, this much support can't push decks into simi playable. I just don't see how Josh is struggling with this concept.

[@SeveNStarSeveN]

We literally have strong tier 2 options. Ritual Beast is fine tier 2 option for example.

[@Guy-yo1he]

@@SeveNStarSeveNthat’s what I’ve been saying

[@ketsura3618]

@@SeveNStarSeveN It just suck against the new staples, and the fun part of rogues is taken out when staples like Fuwalos are too expensive.

[@Micho800]

Sounds like people just want to be able to play in a regulated and standardized heart of the underdog format. I dont know why youre pulling it to so many different directions, its a pretty straight forward message. You`re making it seem like an unreasonable argument.

[@apsamplifier]

I'm honored to have been reacted to.

[@Shadowx157]

Keep rocking the boat Paul, When Konami loses 30% of sales I'm sure they'll see your video solutions

[@robleavold84]

@apsamplifier Good stuff Paul mid core enthusiasts deserve to have something for themselves also so they can play there favourite/meme decks and have a chance.

[@traplover6357]

Cook this Konami shill 😂

[@WretchedPlebe]

I think Josh missed your point. Oh well, you're great.

[@OlaAremu]

Would be awesome if you checked out Domain Format I think it's the future of casual yugioh

[@Pedrooliveira-jv3ro]

I might be wrong, but what I think is being discussed and Josh seems to be having a hard time understanding is that people want to play lower power level decks against decks of similar strength, but there is no "legitimate" agreed upon way to do it outside of time wizard which doesn't allow a big pool of cards with the same power because they weren't released in the date picked. So someone who thinks the current power level of the game is a little too high feels like they don't have a place in the game considering the unlikeliness of Konami banning enough cards to make something like current nouvelles viable

[@ninelie0854]

Farfa said on stream, people like josh or ryan are too good at the game where its normal when they are having hard time discussed this kind of issue since they always compete in highest level of gameplay

[@zarock61]

People should play lower power decks with the understanding that if they do not incorporate good cards or try hard to face better decks then they lose, as much as it sucks certain decks will not ever be functional in a competitive environment sometimes even at locals.

[@acesw6124]

".........time wizard which doesn't allow a big pool of cards with the same power because they weren't released in the date picked............" I literally want to play as close as possible anime deck but due to Fang of Critias not being available during GOAT and Edison times even if part of the Anime I cant use those cards .... sucks.

[@Pedrooliveira-jv3ro]

​@@zarock61 what does this have to do with my comment? I mean yeah if you play a weak deck against a strong deck the game is a lot harder But the whole point of the discussion is that there is no lower powered format where you can play those weaker decks against others of the same level

[@waiyon1951]

@@Pedrooliveira-jv3ro basically this like sure you can modernise for this example six sam decks but doesn't mean you can play against someone with the same power level deck as your modern six sam deck and people but yeah...

[@starjadiancloneinvestigato1772]

"does he want everybody to be as bad as he is" - one of the chat comments Cannot stand this BS. Yugioh community is so elitist

[@ducky36F]

Any money Paul would frog stomp this commenter in a duel too.

[@MiyaoMeow588]

farfa chat is just weirdchamp but josh chat is just intolerably bad

[@georgeandrade2661]

I blame MBT

[@ccjl9160]

Started paying attention to chat because of this comment and holy crap, Josh has ton of these guys. He should seriously try to tone them down

[@BlackBeartic229]

@@MiyaoMeow588 Stopped taking Josh's chat seriously when they constantly made dogshit judgments on the DMaid support (direct and Regis). Feels like MBT's chat sometimes but somehow worse

[@markchang2964]

Josh. I think you missed the plot. The main topic is where can Paul play the new Six Sams? In theory, anywhere. In practice, absolutely nowhere. That is the issue.

[@wendellflowersmusic]

I stopped playing because it turned into 34 and a half hand traps + your Actual deck. So it felt like for casual players like me, you go first and get; Veileered Drolled Infinite Imp Ash'd Opponent has one card or 2 in hands They draw their 1 card combo, end with 10 cards in hand, 20 cards on field, then they OTK me. If I go second I'm facing a board of 30 negates and a follow up turn There's no fun in it so I just play casually and accept the auto lose if the Tier 1 deck does not brick or I open relatively good. Cannot be bothered to go to locals with a $30 deck when the 5 guys there are running upwards of $700 decks and ending My turn on My turn without even getting a chance to play.

[@unit900000]

Tenpai is such a funny example of the problem with half a deck being hand traps and going second cards the deck is actually trash on its own and either gets carried by all the going 2nd cards or loses to only 1-2 disruptions.

[@heulg.darian2536]

I don't know about others but Master Duel is a midcore heaven. To define mid core, mid core is the guy who may be playing a garbage deck but he is playing to win. He will use good cards, he will try to optimize his garbage no matter what anyone else says. It's a shitty position, cause casuals tell you you're playing good cards in your garbage deck and hardcore will tell you you're playing garbage with your good cards. Master Duel Ladder is everything a mid core needs. M1 is a respectable achievement and if you want there is an ELO ladder on top, DC is also good in that aspect. We also have events which allows people to innovate their decks and adjust it for a new format. Something else that helps is that you're not in a rush to reach the top. You can put goals, you can say this time I reached D1 next time I'll reach M5 etc..

[@CL361]

100% agree. I'm only got back to YGO thanks to MD.

[@OsirusHandle]

its because of the large playerbase and rating system

[@admontblanc]

This, I have had an Endymion deck since week 1 or 2 of MD, and stupidly had to grind for it because I went with structure decks first as I wanted to compete before starting to acquire more expensive decks. It was a huge investment at first, and I wasn't even able to optimize it until at least 1 month after that, but it was worth all the gems and dust I spent on it. It's rogue enough that it never got a direct hit on the banlist, still gets the occasional bit of support either from banlist liberated cards or a rare new release that fits the theme and it is able to compete in every format, provided I myself am not just clowning and clicking buttons mindlessly. I see lots of people doing the same every format with other decks like Heroes or some stuff that used to be meta but fell off due to hits or powercreep, or stuff that got boosted by legacy support like Spright in former case or Salamangreat in the latter. All these decks are crazy expensive, but so long as you make that initial investment you are pretty safe. I play that deck because I like it a lot and MD also happened to have launched already with a banlist that is way more friendly towards it than the tcg. The tcg format is just trash, there's no other way around it, it's not about all decks getting good legacy support because that's mostly down to Konami in Japan, and I think most decks have actually been getting great support when they get anything new, at the very least most new legacy support tends to be modern enough that it's not just useless, which was definitely not true even 5 years ago. What's really bad about the tcg though is that decks that were good and accessible, like Endymion and Salad (both released on the same date as structure decks) got shafted really quick because they were from structure decks, while the ocg never did anything that drastic, the Endymion nerf in particular was so drastic and pre-emptive that it felt like an emergency banlist that happened before the deck could even do anything, very few people were using it and the tcg just decided that they couldn't have a pendulum deck be good for a month after they murdered TOSS format in that one banlist, and then we get a clown like Jerome telling us that Electrumite has to stay banned forever because all pendulum decks just go to it (which isn't a complete lie but it's like saying all the X decks just play the Y card which would also be true for entire game mechanics and covering far more cardss and decks). This is why MD has a better format, and sure it has its own issues, but it's better than the other formats because it's adjusted every month without skipping, it's adjusted every time the biggest competitive event it has comes and goes, Konami gets to test a lot of stuff and players have way more options because cards like Maxx "C" do put the meta more in check in the sense that the meta decks don't always win by simply winning the coin toss, which is definitely true for formats without cards like that which Josh and most "pros" so seem to enjoy for God knows what reason outside of making the format extremely, excel spreadsheet-like, predictable.

[@asciiangel7583]

so true

[@ThisNameWas]

Yeah but Maxx C

[@WenLifeGivULemons]

“The reason for unplayable commons being printed is to make the good cards rarer” IMO that system should go away and instead of unplayable commons being printed there should be reprints of old cards related to the new cards being printed.

[@starjadiancloneinvestigato1772]

Chat is totally missing the point that midcore players want to play against midcore players. That's not possible in master duel, and you'll rarely see it at locals because everybody is playing for ante due to the buy-in

[@dannycristen7505]

It is possible in MD its called making a duel room or gold rank

[@starjadiancloneinvestigato1772]

@@dannycristen7505 just playing a very non meta deck like ghoti or suships will get you out of gold easily. There's no way to stay in gold unless you purposely concede dozens of games which is not fun

[@dannycristen7505]

​@@starjadiancloneinvestigato1772 Ok well them that leaves Duel Rooms and Casual Match, you will undoubtedbly.find ppl playing mid decks in either of them. I'd know personally because I frequent both of them.

[@roberthaynes3245]

I so agree with this. I go to locals and it’s like everyone is solely there to wreck the “ rogue” players to have a KZbin profile.

[@ShyRanger]

@@starjadiancloneinvestigato1772 Yeah I play Shiranui Zombie World cause I like it, and I liked my games against Suships for example cause we had nice back-and-forths without full domination, handtraps, or anything really out there. Then I somehow managed to rank up and next set I felt outclassed immediately With no easy way to go back down if I wanted o.

[@dpacula63]

I consider myself a mid core Yugioh player, but not by choice. I literally can’t afford to keep up with the most expensive best decks. I’d like to take this game more seriously but I can’t. I don’t have the luxury to not have to question whether or not to pick up expensive staples. And I used to take this game super seriously but i literally did not have the disposable income to spend on it. All my Yugioh friends moving away and not having a locals was the nail in the coffin.

[@Eru_3ru]

play master duel and become a high lvl ygo competitor, its free

[@dpacula63]

@@Eru_3ruit takes so long to get any good cards and decks. I wanna be able to play the decks I want now. I tried getting back into it and I just can’t be bothered. Also it’s not TCG. It’s not real Yugioh.

[@Eru_3ru]

@@dpacula63 it will not take you a week to get one or mutiple competetiv decks to play with, you just need to be smart about it, like buying the stapple one time packs, duelist pass and do some of the decent story arcetypes maybe for some good starting cards to build off. I havent spend a cent and played snake eyes and own yubel

[@Cr4nched]

@dpacula63 it takes literally a few hours to build a meta deck on a fresh account. If that's too much of an investment you should seek other forms of entertainment or be prepared to spend $$$

[@AbsurdAsparagus]

@@Eru_3ru some people want real cards.

[@mykeycuento5576]

More than being disconnected with reality on the ground, there's lack of empathy towards others. I really just wish TCG players had the same access that we in the OCG to staples, the difference in how players feel here is mind-blowing, because we have no trouble at all playing the deck we want.

[@3thhackz531]

Why do so many of these become people having arguments no one is saying... No people dont want every legacy support to be tier 1 work but not to hard infinite loops like WTF are we even talking about anymore. Please make legacy support playable. Battlin boxer support is printed spends over a year in ocg and printed again knowing it is completely unplayable or unallowed in every single format. The game design is obviously very privy to what works and doesnt and yet makes cards that are completely worthless on release.

[@martijnhertog4802]

Its just that the gap between meta and casual decks has become bigger then ever. My casual friend group stopped with yugioh, we were this kind of midcore players. Going to locals occasionaly and playing games together. It was a combination off the price (even on staples in casual decks), the gap between meta and casual decks and the fact that they ban cards just after a reprint (taka appolousa, baron, diabellstar etc). So now we kinda play Pokemon / Digimon since there you can get several cheap decks for the price of 1 casual yugioh deck. So even tho I at least prefer yugioh over those, the price difference is insane. Yugioh needs the pokemon rarity system, so the casual players can get cheap commons and the whales can get expensive cards.

[@beverlyshields2399]

58:25 . Its not that the fact that there are good and bad decks that is the problem, its the sheer gap between those decks. Even the best rogue decks have a waaayyyyy harder time in yugioh than in other tcgs. Also how you make that hypothetical format is by banning whole archetypes instead of individual cards.

[@BaxsStudios]

When I began playing yugioh back in 16/17 the gap wasnt even close to as big as today. Now that every meta deck has 12 starters and have room to play 15 handtraps its just to big of a gap now. Its just a fact

[@beverlyshields2399]

@@BaxsStudios right? There's literally only so much skill can do, and I refuse to play a deck I don't like the aesthetic of. Ofc Amazoness ain't gonna stomp snake eyes, but decks should at least have tools that make winning a match possible. Top players like Josh love it when there are as few decks as possible for you to play, or more accurately as few decks as possible for them to play against. When a meta is open they talk about how "the right people aren't getting to the top" and "too much rng" but when it's a one deck format everybody else hates it's all "skill issue" and "built different". I love Josh but he's a top .01% player with a mindset to match. His comments on healthy formats are some of the most out of touch things I have ever heard. Maybe it's because magic ruined my brain, but a healthy format should have more than 2 decks with maybe a budget option for the poors.

[@videoanon]

Yeah. Best you can do is a hypothetical scenario of setting up different tiers like fan competitive pokemon with the smogon list, where stuff is categorized into how much something is played in each tier. But we probably won't get something like that ever.

[@kappamaster7179]

I'd say it's the opposite. In yugioh any bad deck can win against good decks as long as you go first, the most degen going 1st decks are even "bad" decks. In other card games try playing a bad deck, against good player with a good deck, in a bo3....

[@ak47dragunov]

@ But there are plenty of budget options that can win a locals. This is what he talked about with players that refuse to put the barest modicum of effort into learning the game

[@YumeBoi]

this has a strong "misunderstood the point" vibe all over it

[@Godzillasauruss]

There is a locals near me that runs a custom rogue format. You can only use decks that are not currently Tier 1 or 2. They update the list regularly but fundamentally its a home for a lot of people who want to play with decks that are outside of the meta like six sam. Thats the solution to help the mid core player feel like they can also play the card game imo.

[@ziltoid984]

What happens when a player keeps winning week after week with the same deck? Do you just ban that deck because it's just marginally better than the rest of the room? That's my main gripe with HoTU/custom list formats when someone decides that you're being too much of a sweat and then punishes you for trying to optimize your pet deck.

[@ItzMajinTCG]

What happens if someone shows up with their maliss or Ryzeal deck? Because that's why we couldn't do heart of the underdog at our locals. The shop owner said they're not allowed to just tell people they can't enter if they're playing legal cards.

[@nh6574]

​@@ItzMajinTCGIf they're saying they can't because of Konami policy then that's not true. Heart of the Underdog is an official format now for this exact reason.

[@xCorvus7x]

@@ziltoid984 If someone really puts in the time to lab out the format to such a degree that they have truly mastered it more than everybody else, wouldn't they appreciate an adapted banlist as a new challenge?

[@roberthaynes3245]

I literally can’t stand when Josh does this. He will play super defense for Konami even when he knows these cards are incredibly overpriced when it’s a MUST use. It’s oppressive on us “mid tier” players. Every single deck I find and wanna try even old and outta meta is over 100 bucks. It’s criminal

[@BaxsStudios]

Its simple the midrange problem comes from one thing Konami does wrong and its not defendable. Pricing and reprints. It cant be that we have short printed secret rare staples pr even secret rare staples at all. We need ocg type Pricing and midrange would bloom. Its all we really ask for its ok for your malise and cards archetype cards to be expensive but not for staples, that should not be a thing. We should have rare versions of those staples like full arts, high rare and Alt arts maybe all in combination and whales still would buy cases. I knew enough players playing more expensive full bling decks even if there is cheaper alternatives. And this is not only a ohh no furwallos is 150 bucks a playset (only "thiw cheap because of the reprint comming) this problem is prevalent since for ever. Give us gems for Master duel when buying a booster per qr code, give us different options and chase cards, give more nostalgia bate reprints in high rarity for collectors but Konami will never change that because that Company doesnt care, they dont care about their video game they dont care about yugioh and that wont change.

[@chrisdl8320]

It's simple , he makes a living out of this and he really loves it so he is desperate to do anything he can to make this game prosper.

[@Mamoiada.]

I love Josh, but he is slowly becoming the meme of 'leave the billion dollar company alone'. Just keeps justifying horrible decisions that are good business wise but bad for the consumer. Then he typically resorts to saying well that's just the way it is, okay and? It doesn't mean it should be that way.

[@georgesagris3508]

As a 'mid core' player, I disagree to an extent with people's argument on pricing. Yes, fuwaloss and engravers are expensive, but you don't need to play with them or certain staples to win. Last year I picked up a voiceless deck for around 120 USD when it was at its highest price, played with all the staples they reprinted in rarity collections which costed not much and bubbled a YCS, came 2nd at a state championship, bubbled my nationals and won an ots championship. I wanted to play Maliss when it was released which cost me around 160 USD, but the cards were announced in Japan 3 months before they released here so I had plenty of time to have money to pick it up. People get like 3-4 months notice from Japan if cards will be expensive and can plan ahead if they really really want it but think it'll be a financial problem. If in 3-4 months you can't potentially save 160 USD for a Maliss/whatever deck you want to play, then consider either not being as competitive, or play a different deck

[@marcmckenzie1983]

If 100 bucks is alot bruv then you need to focus on work and leave cardboard alone. 😅

[@gerbygerbs7705]

IMO the most off putting part from YGO in the last two years is how pronounced the gap has become between competitively viable and completely garbage. The power of newer meta archetypes is so bonkers with 1 card starters and infinite recursion that you get pigeonholed into playing one of 3-4 decks to even remotely have a chance at being taken seriously at even a local level. I wish there were more support for underdog from Konami as a real format, the game is so interesting but only having one format to play seriously hurts the players and I'd argue actively limits who their audience can be.

[@DragonTank1400]

Konami should make a card pool for lower tier formats. It would help the game a ton and give all the filler cards a place to be played.

[@admontblanc]

@@DragonTank1400 it's as simple as them starting to seriously organize events that work like Master Duel side events with their custom banlists, you can extract so much juice out of a format like that with near infinite fresh formats. Mind that any format will always coalesce into its own meta regardless of what you ban and limit, but at the very least it's an easy way to get people to compete in something that you know issn't just gonna be won by the same decks you see week in week out in modern format tournaments.

[@ak47dragunov]

Current format does not fit this description at all. If anything it's the lowest to the ground its ever been save for Maliss, and that has silver bullet counters galore

[@alexb2656]

You sound like somebody who didn't play YGO at all 15-10 years ago. This is not at all true. YCS Bologna had eight different decks in top 8, ffs. The diversity of choice is absolutely there. Calling the game expensive, fair. Saying you only play against the same decks because nothing else is viable, utter nonsense.

[@gerbygerbs7705]

@@alexb2656 brother balonga was almost 3 months ago. Ycs Anaheim had exactly 2 players in top 32 that weren't playing Ryzeal, Maliss, yubel, tenpai or snake eyes. CRBR sucked a lot of the air out of the room and will likely continue to do so outside of some niche tops here and there. SUDA doesn't bring anything to the table, and the only new deck we have on the horizon is BEWD. Just off memory, in the last 2 years we have spright, branded, purrely, chimera, VS, voiceless, plants, mannadium, unchained and fire king all fell behind in their ability to keep up with the game. Let alone all the failures to launch with legacy support. I feel the need to defend the game because I truly love Yu-Gi-Oh, but it's obvious how far power creep has taken us with little signs of slowing down. It's cute that we see striker make some comebacks and ocg has Orcust again, but that seems to be the exception to the rule that your deck has a shelf life and only some random broken support will ever breathe life into it. In an evergreen format it feels pretty damning that 90%+ of the card pool isn't even worth giving the consideration to play if you want reasonable odds of doing well.

[@ModusPwnenzTV]

In streamer man's defence, the history of RTS e-sports has seen this exact issue of the 'loss of the mid-core' / disappearance of the "Casual Tryhard" before, and there were a lot of content creators back then who were also 'hardcore' competitive players who couldn't easily wrap their heads around this idea either. The granularity and texture of the plight of the "Casual Tryhard" - or 'mid-core' player - was so wholly different from what the experiences of the hardcore pro scene Andys that they couldn't readily grasp what the complaints or warnings were about. In between the super-casual social gamer who just derps around with friends and the ultra-competitive, hardcore competitive gamer that studies the game, trains, and tries to stay ahead of meta trends . . . . is the Casual Tryhard. @35:30 This illustrates the point quite well - for many 'casual tryhard' players, the fun is actually NOT from an underdog pet deck pulling off a miracle win against the meta dominating deck. They are trying hard to play well - and they are generally trying to win their games rather than just have a good salt story to tell to their friends - but trying to win is not the main thing they're trying to do. They want to play well, and want to be good at the game . . . but not pull out all the stops to be 'the best' at the game to maximize their chances of winning the competition at all costs. They don't necessarily want to be at the top - they just want to not be n00b / not suck at it / not get killed into the sun. They want to have fun through playing the game itself - that's what they're trying hard to do. And you often have fun playing well, and playing well often leads to winning. There is a world of difference between a 'competitive-tryhard' and a 'casual-tryhard' - but this is a distinction and lesson that was not easily or widely learnt back in the day. And like with Starcraft as in Yugioh, it is a problem when 'like-minded players of similar skill level' can't regularly play together. And there was also a clamour for 'more official alternative formats that cater to casuals*' as a proposed solution, and there was also the same pushback of 'how is that a solution to a problem I don't understand?' The similarities of this history echo are quite remarkable.

[@DragonTank1400]

Learn from history or be doomed to repeat it.

[@nightwish7074]

I want to frame this comment and put it on my wall, beautifully said. "For many 'casual tryhard' players, the fun is actually NOT from an underdog pet deck pulling off a miracle win against the meta dominating deck. They are trying hard to play well - and they are generally trying to win their games rather than just have a good salt story to tell to their friends - but trying to win is not the main thing they're trying to do. They want to play well, and want to be good at the game . . . but not pull out all the stops to be 'the best' at the game to maximize their chances of winning the competition at all costs. They don't necessarily want to be at the top - they just want to not be n00b / not suck at it / not get killed into the sun. They want to have fun through playing the game itself - that's what they're trying hard to do. And you often have fun playing well, and playing well often leads to winning."

[@CyrusThePalaceKnight]

I'm a bit late to this, but to be honest, I think the point is that the midcore players have little reason to play the TCG. Konamis card design essentially appeals to primarily hardcore players and little else because there's only one main format. Sure, Time Wizard and Edison are supported, but they aren't really "main formats". In Magic, not only is Commander a huge alternative format, but the designers deliberately started to create cards for that format. Yugioh doesn't have that same level of support for anything, except the current format. And like it or not, price does matter more than anything else when it comes to the TCG. At the end of the day, Yugioh is a form of entertainment for 99% of people. Everyone who is interested in playing has to ask themselves if paying X amount of money is worth it to get the cards. The higher X is, the more people will leave and do something else with their money.

[@lucaderighetti7653]

I pretty much align myself with the midcore player that Paul is describing here. For me, the biggest problem is the pace of the game’s evolution. I can barely learn how to play against the current meta decks that new sets with new op strategies and cards come out and it feels like an uphill battle almost impossible to win. If you are an amateur poker/chess player and you take a little break from the game, when you return maybe you’ll be a little rusty, but your level will be more or less the same; with YGO, even short periods of absence or periods with less practice will feel like huge impairments when you come back

[@stefanokic406]

Brother its a TCG they print new cards its the same in every game ever

[@kps3252]

​@@stefanokic406 nah, the gap in games like OP TCG is not nearly the same. In OP if you bad draw you dont auto lose. If the opponent's deck is tier 1 and yours is not you can still win. Even if you have a hard matchup you have guaranteed 5-6 turns of being able to play.

[@stefanokic406]

@@lucaderighetti7653 you can still win in yugioh if your deck is worse. It really is heavily matchup dependent. And again i said if you know what you are dooing and your deck has some sort of a gameplan you can compete with most decks. Yes it feels awfull to lose to a full yubel combo but itt also felt awfull dying to face hunter in HS on turn 4. These kind of things happen

[@idbw1274]

I see this a lot when people talk about the gap difference between OP and yugioh. I don’t agree with this take having played one piece. If you play against someone who doesn’t know what they are doing then sure I can see it, but not against people who know what they’re doing. The tempo lost is really big.

[@BamfCross]

There is a reason why commander is more popular than standard in magic. Because you can play w/e you want and still not feel like the game is unwinnable. Red eyes will pretty much never be a winnable archtype in standard yugioh, but you can see results with a cat deck in a commander pod

[@sammydray5919]

Commander is a result of player innovation and dedication to have a format like that tbf. And even that has its massive ups and downs. Just look how messy the bans can be on top of the rule zero stuff.

[@ShroomOfSorrow]

that is not entirely true though, playing a jank deck in commander vs a tq commander deck is still as unwinnable as in yugioh, people do what josh suggested which is to play with friends and agree on a specific power level

[@minabasejderha5972]

That's not why standard dropped off.... 🤦🏽‍♀️ Look, yeah, one of the appeals of Commander is that it is a space where you can often get away with more Jank. However, that is because of a rather specific social contract that exists due to rule-zero discussions in particular and in free-for-all multi-player games in general (such as someone pulling ahead becoming arch-enemy, or it being a bit taboo to pick on someone who is falling behind). Standard has (or, at least had) its own set of appeal factors that attracted players who wanted a lower power level metagame where they didn't have to keep track of as wide a cardpool and as many mechanics so that it is easier to get into. Rotation also kept the format fresh for people who played a lot. It was also a decently affordable format because cards had a shelf-life of competitive legality. It's less that Commander was just a better format that served people's needs better. It's that standard was destabilized by modern card design and stopped serving the needs it once did. This was because of a huge spike in power creep in 2019 (referred to as "FIRE design"). And efforts to revitalize the format have largely missed the point of what the appeal of standard was, just extending the rotation so these extremely overturned cards are around for even longer (and get more expensive). This has kinda made it functionally indistinguishable from some other formats. Then Covid made it so that Commander was the easiest way to play in lockdown. But there are plenty of people who still miss standard from back in the day, for whom Commander just doesn't scratch the same itch.

[@TheReal1zzy]

Josh I love your content and i still watch even though I no longer actively play Yugioh. But I don't know if it was possible to be more off the mark with what you're saying in this vid. I'd consider myself a 'mid-core' Yugioh player, I'm a player who used to play locals every week even during tier 0 formats like tearlaments. But now I've switched to playing One piece because I dont enjoy the current state of Yugioh, the difference between top tier decks and the rest is far too great now and if you're playing at a competitive locals there's no way you can beat a top meta deck with even a good deck that's been printed in the last 2 years. I'm not going to beat someone like Trif or Jesse Kotton without playing the new expensive decks/staples. Also with the cost of living getting significantly higher too, it isn't really justifiable to buy a new $500-$1000 deck every 6 months.

[@Kildykild]

im confused, you played during tear format which is arguably the strongest deck ever but weaker formats you don't play bc somehow the gap is wider than the best deck ever printed??

[@TheReal1zzy]

@@Kildykild I do agree that full power Tear was much stronger than the current/recent decks and gate kept most graveyard based decks because of the ishizu cards, but the tear format was a far more interactive and skill based format, compared to what we've had for the last year. I didn't need to play 20 hand traps in my main deck to stop the exact same combo line from happening anyways. But to be fair I was playing Branded and Dragon Link at the time with a heavy bystial count during Tear format, so I probably had a better time then a lot of people because of that. Also even if I lost to Tear I usually had a fun interactive game, so I was still enjoying it. I do think Ryzeal is a step in the right direction, but the Fiendsmith engine just seems too good imo.

[@TheMismatcher]

@@TheReal1zzy It's funny when you hear people talk about tear format like the person you replied to did. If you weren't playing tear, you played bystials, crow or if you could, shifter, and that made a looooot of decks playable because basically all of those cards are good generic cards that stop a non-linear deck. Compared to 20+ handtraps to stop the same linear combo, I'd take that any day

[@Kildykild]

@@TheMismatcher You named 3,6,9,10,13,16 hand traps to stop it and somehow thats better than 20? You're splashing all that in Hero? SixSam? Plants? Come on now

[@TheMismatcher]

@ Are you dumb? Yes people played 3 mag and 3 druis and maybe sided more - and they did that in Hero and other rogue decks, because that's what I did (nobody played sixsam and barely any plants during tear format so stop coping)

[@artbyty2127]

I think the main point in everyones argument is that we mid core players want a space to sit down and play the game without needing to sweat every game just to win against a teir 1 deck I really enjoy going to locals with a rouge deck and playing to the best of ability, and winning it feels really good. But a lot of times i want to go to locals with the same deck and just chill weather i win or lose i want the game to feel even and without it being an uphill battle but theres no space for it especially at my locals where im one of a few who arent on top meta

[@f687sNFM]

I play midcore cuz i actually wanted to play maliss but 50% of locals is playing maliss and i don't feel good winning or losing a mirror based on wallet or opening hand

[@Nickscruiser]

I believe that what Josh said about taking six sam to locals and youll do fine as a "skilled pilot" isnt necessarily true. Almost all locals around my area are chock full of sweats who are all playing tier 1 beat your ass decks and there isnt really any recourse. For example i enjoy playing Ursarctic and while im aware that the deck is weak and im not expexting it to be tier 1 i threw in an ice barrier package into the deck featuring some of the new ice barrier cards from last years battles set to patch some of the weaknesses. The problem despite me being a skilled player isnt price, its that locals isnt a casual place anymore to play shit like that. I cue up Ursarctic Ice Barrier against anyone playing any current tier 1 deck and im getting shit on no matter how much of a better player i am or not. Like Paul says, the mid core player doesnt have a place to play random jank decks. The local scene isnt casual anymore. I cannot go there and play Libromancer, or Myutant, or Vendread, or Evil Eye for example. All of which are decks i have profiles for on my own channel. It just seems like outside of master duel there isnt a place to go to use decks such as those mentioned.

[@STEPHxCA]

Yeah, the other option is looking for shops that have a jank format. There’s one 15-20 mins away from where I used to live that has a jank format every Friday for decks like Ursarctic

[@Nickscruiser]

@STEPHxCA yea which as far as I know, none in my area do. Doesnt matter what day or which locals i go to, I bring some rogue deck out and my matchups are constantly against tier 1 decks. It was snake eye garbage last format and it's ryzeal and fiendsmith nonsense now.

[@ora5799]

I keep seeing this and i agree to a point but to me this feels like a community issue not just konami issue. Like more casual locals need to exist, but how many locals actually have heart of the under dog tournaments to let these decks feel playable in a given format. The tool exists but i know of 1 underdog tournament firing in the last 12 months where i live.

[@Nickscruiser]

@@ora5799 yea i don't think any locals near me host heart of the underdog tourneys

[@ora5799]

@@Nickscruiser exactly, and how do you get people to show up. If the prizing is too good it becomes a hunt for the 7th best deck after whatever decks you ban out, which still likely dumpsters bad pet decks

[@ColeLoveMath]

~12:20, I feel like most people that watch Yu-Gi-Oh content don't actively play and aren't interested in playing. I'm one of those people. The content creators for this game make the game way more interesting than actually playing games of Yu-Gi-Oh. The content creators are thoughful, fun, interesting. While the game feels too flippy, and/or you need to be so invested to have a reasonable game. I'd much rather just live vicariously through the people who have built the knowledge, or find ways to have fun in another tier-0 format.

[@DogonCabrera]

Josh is so blind by his love by yugioh. I Can not understand how he does not understand the problems xd for me is very easy to get it

[@theJollyPaleGiant]

You’re completely missing the point. Glad to see APS have a based take again. APS is a man of the people.

[@lincolnpertuset2980]

Id love to play casual Yu-Gi-Oh at a store every week but there isn't a community for it. I just wanna play my jank decks I enjoy. But every body at the shop is a sweat with too much time and money

[@lincolnpertuset2980]

I also think you misunderstood the argument. I don't want my gusto deck to be tier zero. But the gap between my deck and a competitive deck is a chasm. I auto lose

[@default9314]

​@@lincolnpertuset2980 Lets say we are talking about exactly Gusto. Gusto was always bad. Ever since release it was bad. It was a deck build on a foundation of sponge

[@DragonTank1400]

@@lincolnpertuset2980 That is the issue, the gap has gotten too wide where you don't even get to play the game.

[@ak47dragunov]

@@lincolnpertuset2980 This is like saying my Dreamcast controller doesn't work on my PS5. It's time to either sit down and just play Dreamcast or upgrade to a new controller, whether that be the Sony product (meta) or an Aliexpress that still does the job but has flaws (rogue). Bringing literal unplayable cannon fodder that wasn't even great shakes in its time and expecting to have fun is just ridiculous

[@lincolnpertuset2980]

@ak47dragunov I can have fun losing. I just don't enjoy having a snowballs chance in hell unless I spend 600$

[@Alexalibur13]

Midcore players are players that want to be 5% behind the best deck, not 50%. Like in 2024 name one deck that even mattered that wasn't snake eyes and its variants, yubel, tenpai and fiendsmith goodstuff, but also name the decks that came out within that timeframe, and the decks in 2023. Rescue Ace, Purrely, Infernoble support, vanquish soul, Nouvelle, etc they were immediately dumpstered in one or two sets, and one banlist which killed one of the widest format in recent history. You missed an entire point saying that not all decks will be created equal, sure that's not practically wrong, but there is no way it is okay for the gap between Yubel and Rescue Ace should have been THAT massive. Players were left between either play the good 3 decks or lose. Midcore players want to play their weak decks but the weak decks shouldn't be unplayable "Weak" but rather just weak*er*. Six Sam here, the problem was that the support was probably DOA, because have you seen the other decks?

[@Cybertech134]

This right here. It's not the fact that some decks are better than others; it's how much better they are than everything behind it.

[@beauthibodeau126]

time wizard is 100% not supported. barely advertised and barely any product related too it. josh'es ignorance is crazy in this video the worst takes on this subjects i have seen so far. i usually agree with josh but he is wayy off base on this one. he is shilling hard in this one. also his anger is very apparent about the money subject lol as if we shouldnt complain even though the game is in a terrible spot and people are leaving the game. he just wants super handtrap formats thats what he loves.

[@beauthibodeau126]

also he sounds super conceited in this video lol telling one chatter that he "he hasnt made good points and you have been yapping all day" while he was actually making a great point while josh was just yapping and not making good points at all and completely ignoring valid points that people bring up and getting angry. Do not bring up that the game is expensive to josh he hates that people think that game is bad because they cant play it which is a super valid no matter how you try to spin it. it cant be ignored for most people unlike who gets paid to play so the price of cards isnt an issue and in fact is an advantage to you.

[@beauthibodeau126]

"the game is healthy every deck is running 20 handtraps and at least 6-10 cards that cost $50-$100' lol thats literally the opposite of a heathly game state

[@beauthibodeau126]

i think josh should rewatch this himself and see how its coming off. its sounds arrogant, conceited, and not thoughtful at all. Hopfully he does some reflecting because 99% of the comments on this video are negative because he is shilling for the company not the player which is sad.

[@baritonetenor]

I think you underestimate the % of locals that is just the best 2 decks with 99% overlap in decklists. I can not win a locals without divine intervention if I don't play a tiered deck.

[@GleamingGarmore]

3:13 I would HOPE 2023 Master Due World Champion Joshua Schmidt considered himself a competitive yugioh player

[@Vicmagician]

I love josh but I believe he missed the point on this one

[@MrBagelBites]

My man Josh fighting Ghosts in the Debate ring on this one while the initial opponent waits for his turn.

[@miroheartech4231]

I don't think you can really complain for the discussion always diverting to a price argument. First, you are the streamer, you decide what you talk about in your stream. Don't ever let chat decide anything. Humans are stupid and masses of humans are often wrong. Second, YOU rerouted the whole discussion to a price argument from the start. APS never even mentioned price in his video. The whole video was about below hardcore players not having FUN with the game despite trying to find likeminded communities and despite lowering their expectations even at a local level. It was abuot enjoyment, not price point.

[@Leon.2k]

The Solider Konami doesn’t deserve

[@lightingsand]

I think the real problem is there are too many non games in yugioh. Especially if you're playing with a worse deck. Getting hand trapped 3 times and then one card combo game doesn't make you want to play again. I think that's what people mean by competitive. Games where it actually feels like you got to play.

[@TheDmviper]

The "midcore player" wants to be a 40/60 underdog with their rogue deck not a 5/95 underdog. I can only speak about Magic the Gathering, but in most competitive formats (Standard, Pioneer, Modern), rogue decks can reasonably take games off meta decks with equally skilled players. I know in basically any month I can play Pioneer and basically every archetype will be playable and able to get to Mythic (MTG equivalent of Master). In yugioh, because of how archetypes work and card design is done, 90% of decks cannot hit Master without an absurd amount of games played to essentially get lucky and get 50 coin flips in a row or disconnect victories.

[@stefanokic406]

But thats exactly what you are. 40/60 unless you play absolute garbage or just play your deck badly. I never really play the best deck and my winrate is prob between 50-60 percent

[@stefanokic406]

And every deck that does anything can reach master easy. I got to master with BA ffs

[@TheDmviper]

Fair enough, I could definitely be overestimating the gap between tier 1/2 and rogue decks in yugioh, but it definitely feels like that is essentially what is being argued about. Some people experience the gap as huge whereas in some other competitive card games it isn't nearly as much. As far as the master/mythic climb a lot of the gap can be compensated by skill difference, but I really wish there was a data set of matchup winrates that controlled for player skill level. That would really help answer if there's a real problem to begin with or if it's just yugioh is a hard game with a steep learning curve so the "midcore" player's problem is a them problem not a game design problem.

[@EmptyJarDoto]

@@TheDmviper that guy is bs'ing, even if you're outskilling your opponent but you're not playing the top tier you will lose as the gap between top decks and bad decks is just that wide. I remember times when the gap of at least 20 different decks was 45-55 and skill made all the impact. Nowadays a skilled player can play a deck that is not in top 5 and he will get obliterated as the gap is so wide.

[@Nightwolf739]

I don't think he understands midcore here. Midcore players play to win but they also play for enjoyment. Sure they know about the meta and keep up with competitive play but they themselves don't value trying their hardest to gain titles and prestige. Games like League of Legends, Overwatch, Marvel Rivals, etc. all have ranked but most players who play them only play quick play, not because they're casual, they still play to win, but because they don't value rank and find it frustrating to be put in these tense and for lack of a better word "sweaty" environments where it feels like they have little agency. I like tcg format more than masterduel but I don't go to locals often because my locals is competative, and if I want to come with runick spright fur hire, ice barrier, or melodious, I will probably not have a great time. Because I know almost every game will be against Maliss and ryzeal. Your opponent activating more cards on your turn than you get to is extremely frustrating and very prominent in modern yugioh since we have 1 card combo decks that play a large amount of handtraps that benefit them going first and second. New top tier decks feel as though they are playing a completely different game and essentially force anyone interacting with them to be playing "ranked" when midcore players want to play quickplay. And this doesn't even delve into the price issue that for many players makes the game feel pay to win. Your cards activate to summon from hand? Unfortunately for you your opponent was able to afford donimus impulse, if only you spent your money on ryzeal cards that inherently summon themselves. Formats like the one in YCS Bologna 2023 are HEAVENLY for midcore players because no clear best deck means you have genuine viable options.

[@landb3607]

There are no locals within an hour of me, and I live in a big city. They all stopped doing yugioh

[@rushxanthemtcg5607]

You probably don't live in a big city.

[@zell245]

@@rushxanthemtcg5607that is the most braindead answer anyone could come up with. You dont need to reply to everything, shut up holy… and the other 2 npc upvoting you. Many LGS have dropped yugioh, actual head in the sand mf

[@ItzMajinTCG]

I live in the sticks and I could probably go to a different locals every night of the week if I really wanted to.

[@Realblack_m0nster]

​@@rushxanthemtcg5607I live in London. For me to go to locals its a 1hr+ train journey. OP isnt wrong.

[@arthuryupendragon9725]

Some of my friends quit TCG because of the enormous numbers of handtraps, and they're right. When the opponent throw at you Ash, Veiler, Impulse it's not fun, definitely. It's basically like play against a stun deck but in your first turn. Tenpai format was truly a nightmare, in MD I can't stand again another 4 handtrap then normal Paidra.

[@Dabherenthere]

Average Tenpai player during your draw phase: *activate Shifter chain Maxx C 👓

[@MiscTo3]

yeah the hand traps are almost not even 100% of the problem its that most meta decks have game ending 1 card combos. so its like a feedback where you can run more hand traps because you have 1 card combos then everyone else needs 1 card combos to compete with the hand traps. 1 card combos need to be completely banned or neutered

[@deboltteamenlight3480]

I think you're right, but I don't think it's just handtraps. Everything that keeps you from playing the game at all, like omninegates or generic removal, is just killing the fun.

[@arthuryupendragon9725]

​@@deboltteamenlight3480 yes, I agree with you, of course handtraps are not the only problem here, the free omni negates are as well. I'm still having fun using my decks but against Tenpai it's really hard to stay calm. And yes, 1 card combo must be deleted as soon as possible to make the game much more fun.

[@ducky36F]

I haven’t “quit” but I stoped when the multichummys and dominus cards came out… Less because I care about the hand trap numbers… but more because it makes it hard to even play my preferred decks optimally without them which does bother me and because I don’t want to go through the hassle of acquiring expensive staples again.

[@pivotchampion]

I think Farfa and Marx said it best. The economic conditions of a society determines the most pertinent reality of everyone living in it. It's no wonder why the conversation always loops back to "yugioh expensive" because you have to be able to afford your hobby before you can play it.

[@SloopYGO]

9 minute original video 1 hour 20 reaction thats how you know its good

[@ziltoid984]

Asmongold has the genre in a chokehold

[@Mr.WarwickBot]

I don’t stick to a “pet deck” because I love playing an older deck. It mainly because I don’t want to justify buying a new meta deck every 6 months when they are sometimes $700+. I haven’t bought or played tcg in like 2 years. YGO is genuinely my favorite card game, and nothing really comes close. But I’m not getting milked for every penny Konami can try and get from me.

[@Shadowx157]

Josh the on-boarding experience is garbage, I've taught 4-5 separate friends who eventually quit less than a few months, unless you have that power fantasy/ deeply analytical brain and love for card games, 5/6 of people don't stay for hardcore ygo. Midcore (middle players) need to be acknowledged, you can't have a game with a crappy beginner experience like barely available speed dules, And then throw them against fiendsmith, labyrinth, snake-eye, yubel on the other spectrum. You need a format that gets active Ban lists, updates and fair treatment example modern and pioneer in MTG

[@connermorgan9223]

This isn't a new issue, but it's exemplified by where modern Yugioh is. I think Yugioh's recent designs lumps many would-be player to the "midcore" casual group. The power curve of new meta decks is so much greater than anything else that exists every few months. In other words, the 2020s has been a barrage of very narrow formats that are all expensive. And the gameplay loop of the current game pummels a lower tier deck to the ground so quickly and mercilessly.

[@hultraspitfire2151]

I think the most annoying thing is the clear favorites konami has in each sets. Yes I can understand that every deck can't be meta and it's fine with me but when you look at springan sargas that can only pop during the opponent's turn(why not both?), the new Raidraptor Rank up that makes one of its 2 common targets miss its activation condition when its already worse than the other target 80% of the time or ashened that, as an archetype, is barely functionnal. (these are examples, there are many more.) All this while the all ultra, shiny new toys can do more, with less and with half the restrictions. It just feels like konami doesn't care about the gameplay. Why don't the snake eyes have any restrictions at all? Why could the ishizu cards be the end all be all of GY control when its stupidly hard to mill otherwise in archetypes designed to work around the GY? I can see the point of cards producing good gameplay, but you can't tell me in the face of fuwalos that my combo deck that needs 3 times more summons to end on a weaker board than a standard ryzeal board deserved to get basically thrown out of the game due to its own mecanics. You cannot tell me that a card that murders combo decks should be introduced bc konami failed to remove what makes combo decks unbearable to play against (besides long turn time). Why even bother printing cards that you can't allow to be good when you clearly know what's wrong and what has been wrong with these deck since forever. My classic example is Raidraptor, Towers are fundamentaly uninteractive and produce bad gameplay. Then why the hell do you give them another tower as their new form of interaction when the deck already has a special summon hate identity based on destructions and floating of destruction, towers being the thing you aim for on turn 3 to seal the deal. And after they're like "oh weird, this card is degenerate, we now must print a card to reign this tier 5 deck down. Btw here's our new deck that does everything better and doesn't die to the new card". Hypocrits.

[@bradysummers20]

I don’t know why I’m typing this because it probably won’t be read. However, I believe a point that may run semi parallel to the competitive argument of new support is that if Konami had the time to make new support for an archetype like six samurai and mermail, they at least could have made them competitively viable at a ycs level. Instead of always coming up with new archetypes that run the meta they could invest their time and money into making support of older archetypes that are good enough to compete at the higher levels. I think it’s just disheartening and insulting to players when they wait for 5+ years for support of their favorite archetypes and then when it finally comes out it’s subpar. That just means that they’ll probably never get to play their favorite archetypes at a high level again and that I believe could feel pretty crappy.

[@stefanokic406]

But on the other side they made yubel support and everybody hated it. Im fine with how they are dooing legacy support cause i ok with these old deck not beeing meta but good enough. And i think they did a deacent job reacently of making old decks good enough to play in the current meta. Like you can genuinely play BA in MD and do fine

[@BaxsStudios]

​@@stefanokic406 bro its not because they made yubel meta support it was because yubels playstile is incredibly badly designed and unfun to play against.

[@stefanokic406]

@@BaxsStudios thats the point ppl love the deck konami makes it meta and unfun ppl hate the deck

[@stefanokic406]

@@bradysummers20 and how many things do you think can be meta at the same time 10? 20? No its just couple of decks you will never satisfy ygo players

[@shaggy5033]

This is just a consequence of Yu-Gi-Oh being too fast. Your first 5-6 cards need to be able to contest your opponent's 5-6 cards, if they don't you might as well be playing with UNO cards for all I know it won't make much of a difference. In other card games (I'm talking Magic, LoR, Shadowverse and Hearthstone cause those are the ones I've played) rogue decks have a better time because you usually get 4 to 7 turns to advance your game plan or draw your techs which drastically reduces variance. You are still not favoured against a meta deck (it's meta for a reason) but your decisions and your deck building will matter more that your opening hands over the course of a 10 rounds tournament When you are playing a deck like Ryzeal or a Friendsmith variant it feels fine because every individual card in your hand is a minigame by itself, but when you are playing anything else like say Melodious (which is still a good deck, mind you) vs one of the top decks you are really just hoping to have opened the right combination of cards or your opponent not opening a really good hand Creating an alternate format for rogue decks is really just a band-aid fix, there is such a massive difference between a good and a mid rogue deck that it would feel the same. You'd then have to create a new format for those weaker decks, and then again, and again until we end up with smogon style tiers

[@jamesglass7727]

Unless I’m attending a string of ycs’s, I don’t go out of my way to attend locals the way I used to. I can see his point. Most locals are just ycs prep, not particularly fun for the player who plays once a week to unwind. The pet deck comment I disagree with. You can absolutely master a rogue deck and do well at locals, the games just more complex than it was in the past, so that’s a longer and more difficult process. Great points and discourse all around though!

[@lit_wick]

Magic is welcoming to lower power leveled decks because there's a conversation that happens before the dice roll. People will share descriptions of the decks they want to play in that game. Sometimes it's as simple as saying what turn the deck can win by if it goes uninterrupted. Other descriptors are "has Stratoss, plays floodgates, jank". This is what keeps people comfortable playing their low power decks, they'll find a table at magic night willing to play their level. Hell, some people even play "unmodified precons", which is exactly what it sounds like.

[@ropesnake]

this may blow your mind but you're allowed to discuss power levels pregame in kitchen table yugioh too. comparing commander to ygo standard is apples to oranges. in any other constructed mtg format (standard, modern, etc) people bring their best decks and play to win. you could argue that konami should support a commander-like format for yugioh (and id probably agree) but there needs to be sufficient community demand for such a thing and that doesn't really exist right now, at least not in any unified sense

[@lit_wick]

@ropesnake valid points.

[@monotone8299]

Its all about how sharp the drop-off is. Mid-Core is at its peak when it can go 60-40% or even 65-35% against a meta-deck with equally skilled players. In Tearlament format, if you brought a non-shifter rogue deck you'd have a 5-10% chance of winning against a full-power Tear deck. In the subsequent Unchained/Kashtira etc format, if you brought a non-tier 1 deck, you'd have a significantly better chance of winning against the current best decks in the format. The most recent formats Snake-Eyes / Yubel / Tearlament formats have had the top decks eating every other deck alive until they have their kneecaps broken by a banlist. This is why Ryzeal / Maliss format feels so much better for the Mid-Tier players because you have a solid shot against those decks as long as you build properly.

[@Taubenmann1510]

You mess up your own reasoning here. You say you can win locals with decks like Six Samurai, while you also say, that both information infrastructure and second hand cardmarkets have become more widespread and easily accessible, which, logically speaking, puts Six Samurai into an uphill battle with the hill become steeper and steeper.

[@detective_0267]

I feel this is a long winded way of saying rogue players are dying since power creep is way too insane rn They just needa make the best decks not completely gap everything like obviously let the meta decks be better just not infinitely better they should have weaknesses

[@loweerom]

Me as a forced midcore player (Priced out of every format) can relate with Paul's argument. Every now or then, there used to be a random madolche top sneaking, plunder patrol too; rogue decks that are not out of this world, but just ok, succesing into competitive environment because of the skillfulness of their players, so on local levels they were the famous "local legend". But now, people that want to have fun even at locals, are forced to play tiered strategies, the power creep right now is insane. The best example i can think of is crafting hands. If I play for example, sky striker, craft me a hand in a standard non specific counter list that wins against a maliss full board. Heck, even against non-actual meta stuff like melodious... every deck make a combo that practically makes towers turbo, because if you don't have an out of a board in your list, you don't have the slightlest posibility to beat one of this decks even against the worst player in the world. All of that effort getting new combos and theoricrafting goes to waist against post-POTE decks, it just becomes. Did you draw Lancea? Did you draw dark ruler + evenly? Did your opponent brick? Did you draw d-barrier? That's makes the games that we experience insainly frustrating and boring, just forced to play the 1-4 decks of choice even the causal spaces, because why would you spend your money in a deck that would lose to everything and won't let you have fun?

[@ak47dragunov]

Been a Striker andy my whole life and don't agree. If anything, this format has been a breath of fresh air for the deck and almost any board save for Maliss (which is a nightmare) can be shredded to bits. Practice practice practice

[@ShroomOfSorrow]

@@ak47dragunov i mean, didn't striker in particular get second at a ycs during the past format? and with none of the new cards except impulse in the side deck, literally just the most vanilla striker list ever

[@mickjaegar2379]

@@ShroomOfSorrow Wasn't there some French regional late 2024 where Virtual World won?

[@ShroomOfSorrow]

@@mickjaegar2379 spanish nationals last year

[@Cybertech134]

@@ak47dragunov Striker is not a good example.

[@christopherdyson1158]

Idk... I'm a new player in MD, idk if Im interpreting things right. But I feel like its that people either play new (meta) cards, or old cards. New cards are expensive. Old cards are not necessarilly as cool. I have no history with the IP. So I have no nostolgia for the goat/edison format cards. I just want to find cool archetypes and learn about it. (...Most likely waifu decks or cool lore decks... pretty sure those dont exist in edison/goat from what I seen but idk) I really like Witchcrafters. Though if I go on masterduel: >I summon Schmietta. >I activate its effect to tribute. >It gets negated. >I pass with no cards on the field. The times I get lucky and also have a witchcrafter unveiling or holiday they have a second negate as well. Unless I add like white forest the archetype can't seem to do a single thing. (Love white forest, so its not a problem... but I want to get into the TCG... I'm not paying $40 for a single copy of Elzette...) If I wait for the new cards to become cheaper. I feel like that defeats the purpose, by that point new meta decks will probably be out which completely stop them. And everything is way too expensive for initial costs. I wanted to get 2 decks so I can play against family/friends, and try to get them into the game. Its $85 dollars not including shipping for JUST the accessories (deck boxes, sleeves, playmats, and a pages for a binder). I went to a local card shop. People suggest getting 3 structure decks, they had Traptrix for about $30 EACH... even still online its $20 each on TCGPlayer. So $200-$300 plus shipping for 2 decks and the accessories needed to play. Thats basically a new videogame console. Buying singles still puts it around the $200 range with Pure Witchcrafters, and LiveTwin/Spright iirc. I tried getting my friends into EDOPro. And they hated it: boring, too much reading, confusing. So "just play kitchen table yugioh" likely wont work if I cant find friends who are even willing to get into yugioh in the first place. Given the experience in master duel, I can't justify paying this much. Maybe if I knew locals were casual and the decks were a bit playable... I might justify it. ... but I also note its so tempting regardless. Ive spent hours every day for the past week staring at yugioh cards on tcgplayer... I dont want to pay $40 for Elzette... but my brain keeps tempting me to order her.

[@monkeylemur]

Master Duel had the solution, which is events. As much as people love bitching about every single event meta, they're nevertheless generally very very different from the main ladder. Also because several things don't exist, my pet deck that is adjusted for the new banlist is significantly more powerful than if they were fighting a meta deck. I know this for a fact because I theorycraft for every single event and most of the time I don't see a single person run the decks I did. I generally walk away with like 80%+ WR in most events because of people's non-familiarity with my strategy and choke points and also because my read was more unique and logical than just using a meta deck without any of the fangs or just going floodgate or ben kei turbo or using the precon decks

[@vmarcelo49]

This video was kinda awful, i belive Josh misses almost every point of pauls video, and directs the conversation to a perspective that is overly exageratted. the worst thing to me is this thing with "playing a bad deck and playing worst than your opponent and expecting to win" who said that?

[@Pistolsatsean]

I feel like the entire TCG industry is losing this kind of player, because the grass isn't greener anywhere else (at least not for long)

[@Laflamme78]

Investors basically kill any hobby at some point, which sucks.

[@Always.Smarter]

@@Laflamme78 if it weren't for the investors, the game would've been dead a long time ago.

[@Gabrielczt]

Magic still has a massive mid core audience. They play commander.

[@CRIPPLINGSODIUMADDICT]

mtg is actually catching these players with commander

[@Cybertech134]

@@CRIPPLINGSODIUMADDICT Yup. After 20+ years of YGO, the way Konami has neglected their midcore playerbase has pushed me to commander. Much better game than YGO2.

[@vizzy6473]

I’d say that I originally was one of the players that Paul is describing. I started playing Yugioh around 2010, and stopped playing around 2014-2015, shortly after the introduction of Pendulums. The cards were too weird for me, and I just didn’t enjoy Yugioh anymore. I tried picking back up Yugioh around 2020-2021, and the power level of the game had risen so exponentially that it just didn’t feel fun anymore. However, I tried one more time because I genuinely love this game and got back in about a year after Master Duel’s release, and I haven’t left since. There are definitely valid reasons to dislike the direction of Yugioh, as well as the power level, but honestly I feel the reason most people have left Yugioh in that “midcore” level is because they simply just don’t like it. Like, I’ve had people at Locals constantly genuinely raging and malding over playing against relatively mediocre decks by modern standards like Fur Hire Runick just because it beat their Nemleria deck or whatever. The thing about other card games vs Yugioh is that other card games don’t have the interactivity that Yugioh does. And before anyone rushes to the comments to complain: be genuine with yourselves. Having multiple turns isn’t interactivity. I tried learning Digimon, and while the game isn’t BAD, it is by NO means interactive. You just do whatever you want on your turn, and if you win, you win. There is nothing your opponent can do about it. Card games like Yugioh and Magic have ACTUAL interactivity and people don’t like when they can’t just “do whatever I want.” That’s why so many people complain about stuff like Hand Traps, despite them being INHERENTLY interactive.

[@dannycristen7505]

Ppl will genuinely sit down, read bad cards, and go "hell yeah", bring those bad cards to locals and get mad they lost to something competant

[@Van-yh6to]

I always thought local Master Duel events would be the perfect way to accommodate midcore players. I love showing off stupid jank decks that are objectively bad/bricky but are funny to play when they pop off. Even after getting dumpstered by someone's $700 meta deck. But since it's kind of a pain in the ass to carry around multiple decks in TCG for those hardcore players to "play down to the midcore level", they're always going to beat you. In MD, they can always carry around dumb pet decks/lower tier decks in the palm iof their hand. Though there really isn't much incentive for these game stores to want to host anything for MD. Those MD players aren't buying products there, they're swiping their cards, if anything to Apple/Google/Steam.

[@vizzy6473]

@@dannycristen7505 I wholeheartedly agree. Like, I don’t mind people playing their pet decks, favorite archetypes, etc. What I do mind is people willingly bringing a tier 3 deck to Locals, losing to a tier 2 deck, then go “YUGIOH SUCKS UGH I HATE ASH BLOSSOM I HATE HANDTRAPS I HATE BLAH BLAH BLAH” because there was 1 point of interaction. Those types of people genuinely just want to play a single player game

[@tomkulczewski]

Amen

[@No-in8vi]

So true, I don't play yu-gi-oh on paper since there is no place near me that allows me to do so, so I only play MD, but I do play magic irl in a casual environment and it's exactly the same, people complain about top decks being uninteractive but don't you dare play any sort of interaction or removal on their turn or they'll get salty. At the end of the day some people's ego is too big to actually see themselves mirroring the same kind of behavior they whine about

[@joshdavis6830]

I may actually be the midcore Yu-Gi-Oh! player, and the reason I left the game this time was Snake-Eye, and the reason I left the game last time was Tearlament. Honestly, these broken tier 0 formats get old real fast, I'm genuinely excited for like Maliss and Ryzeal to hit Master Duel, but when the format is bad I stop playing for a while

[@Grayewicked]

I consider myself a "midcore YGO player". I hated the current format still because of Shifter (seriously, BAN THAT CARD). Currently, I just spend most of my time making custom cards and/or archetypes on DB. It's really fun!

[@Cybertech134]

Yup. I got friends asking me to come to the local Heart of the Underdog tournaments, but I won't even touch the game as long as Shifter is still legal.

[@ScootaGray]

I’m on the side of master duel being a haven. Master duel lets anyone play yugioh for free, anytime. So unless you actually plan on winning irl tournaments why would anyone spend real money on TCG or OCG? ONLY competitive players are left in TCG and OCG, along with the brand new players(who as soon as they come up against enough competitive players will decide to not stick around)

[@brandanjablonski2320]

Josh, you are such a good boy and Konami's strongest soldier. Your check will be be in the mail shortly. Enjoy!

[@Dinner407]

I don’t think I’ll ever come back to Yugioh as someone who liked to go to locals every so often. Game is complex (compared to others), power creep is through the roof, which then makes purchasing product super unfun because either you pull op cards or you lost money. Too many tier one formats really made me lose interest (quit around snake eyes). Yugioh is also one of the rare games where the strategy is to completely prevent your opponent from doing anything with negates. So deck diff (and cash diff) is felt most strongly in my opinion. Also, why waste my time playing a game where the game producer disrespects my time and money? I’ve got a career and bills to pay, and my free time is also something i want to spend wisely. This game doesn’t reward me for it, especially when they short print good cards and/or bundle it in shitty products as a cash grab. So why stay?

[@gerbygerbs7705]

@@Dinner407 ygo has thankfully gotten away from the infinity negate meta. The biggest offenders have been banned and all the new stuff is hard once per turn and most decks can only end on one or two, but largely play for much more engaging interactions with pops and sticky boards.

[@spncrgrn]

Later bro

[@starjadiancloneinvestigato1772]

agree with all but not on the complex part. sure you can play complex decks but that's not a negative, plus yu-gi-oh has so many archetypes that you can find a simple deck for yourself. power level though, that's another question

[@Cybertech134]

@@gerbygerbs7705 5+ minute turns are still unacceptable.

[@gerbygerbs7705]

@@Cybertech134 I mean, Yu-Gi-Oh is by far the most interactive card game I've ever seen in terms of being able to directly counterplay on your opponents turn and vice versa. The long turns are only a problem if you have no way to respond and your opponent's deck has to spin its wheels before getting anywhere. Also 5 minutes is a joke, the biggest offenders are upwards of 10 minutes for turn one playing at a reasonable pace.

[@ObsidianHide]

I think you're missing the point Joshua. The power level between rogue decks and meta decks in Yugioh is so vast compared to other card games. You have to play out of your mind when if you just want to plau a few casual games with your community every week is just asking for a stressful bad time. I play Pokémon as my main game now and i can take a rogue deck and expect to have a solid chance while still having bad matchups anc facing the top of the meta because the gap in power level isnt THAT much. And also its just easier to play casual games in other games due to this. Yugioh feels hard to do that in a community serting

[@ObsidianHide]

"just find like minded players" That's also the point you're completely missing. My community is almost non-existent and most people left for other games years ago at this point because of these exasperating problems.

[@ScubaFingSteve]

As that mid-competitive player who pivoted to one piece, i’m never coming back. The grass is too green here. One piece is my favorite ip and it sucks because i miss my old yugioh friends who didnt pivot to one piece with us but the game has been a haven away from yugioh Edit: And before anyone makes any assumptions based on this. My locals is home to 2023 world champion pauly aronson. We had the talent, I had access, it didnt matter.

[@prodmoira]

One piece is just to good

[@ScubaFingSteve]

@@prodmoirai can and do own every single deck in the game for cheaper than staples in yugioh are

[@masterh2o2]

Man, i want to learn that TCG, how do I do that ? I have faith in Bandai games after being introduced to Digimon from a friend, it's awesome & a good alternative should the format be garbage in YGO.

[@gerbygerbs7705]

A bunch of guys left for one piece, but imo it doesn't scratch the itch Yu-Gi-Oh hits. It's a fine game, cheap enough to take seriously; but grinding the formats doesn't feel as good as getting really good at Yu-Gi-Oh

[@daedalus5253]

I already simply wont get into OP because there is no mobile version like Master Duel. Though it does sound interesting.

[@clement6229]

Something I thought about and tried to do in my community, is a system like Pokemon Showdown, where you would have different banlist depending on "power level" formats (Uber, OU, UU, NU, etc). It was not possible to keep up with it in my small community (that's a lot of formats to test with all the new supports all the year), but it's sad that we never had that. We called that GTAC (Give Them A Chance) and the project was dropped like 4 years ago at the end. And anyway you would need so many different formats to have every decks good in at least 1 format, it would be insane. Look Farfa's LCS where you can go when you ban cards ! But still it could be an idea.

[@CRIPPLINGSODIUMADDICT]

yu gi oh player copes for 2 hours.

[@karto1213]

A problem is also the meta of the game in MD. Many mid tier players want diversity in gameplay and even chances. Momentarly it is just like the DC where you either play against Tenpai or against decks which simply put a board up which to difficult to beat because white forest centurion and snake eyes put up 6 interactions and every deck over platin is exactly this deck. And off course we newly got maxx c³ which makes it even more rng heavy.

[@daedalus5253]

Diversity certainly varies based on Rank.

[@saveumberto]

Id say with the new maxx c meta we are seeing decks with fewer disruptions but with a heavier focus on building disruption on as few summons as possible. Voiceless voice and Labrynth seem to be getting more popularity. I think its not as RNG heavy as people think, the lab and voiceless decks can beat tenpai much easier now that they have 3 less extenders. But the problem is that it also creates unfun metas that heavily promote floodgates. I have been seeing way more traps like dimension barrier and there can be only one and thats purely because the new maxx c meta basically guarantees that your triple tactics thrust will work and that you will often be going first.

[@Phantom770G]

I wouldn't say the meta in MD is a problem. It has been the only format in which decks like centurion, VS, VV (albeit its making a comeback in paper) and some other low tiered decks have had more success or a stronger impression. Now if you mean a pet deck then that's a different story. You either modify it enough to beat the meta or just accept that it can't keep up. Zombie players are a good example of people that despite Konami leaving them to die for years have always found ways to make zombie piles work out.

[@stefanokic406]

​@@Phantom770G yeah and some decks just wont work in certain metas. I like evil eye and have played it in couple of DC cups and did okay. But when branded was really a thing and everybody and their mother played bystials i had to switch. So understand your decks know what they are good and bad at and sometimes just leave them at a side because its not the time for them

[@francescolofaro8258]

The most shocking thing to me is Joshua does not know how an Hexagon plot works, and keeps saying it's a 1-0 scale, when, by definition, it isn't.

[@BamfCross]

To be far the way it was explained was exactly that. The poster only mentioned in the decks had it or not.

[@francescolofaro8258]

@BamfCross I would have bot explained in the post how tò read the most commonly used graph in games.

[@scottosmundson9845]

31:00 Union arena has “filler cards” but mostly all cards in the pack are playable and competitively viable. The games deck building structure and gameplay support this but it really is fulfilling opening Union arena packs. Only problem is that decks are exclusive to specific cards and cards colors so if you aren’t seeking to build a certain type or color deck then those cards become useless.

[@fameshark]

While I agree with Paul’s sentiment, I feel as though the mid core player either needs to be more creative in how they approach the game. Yugioh is an incredible sandbox experience; it can be anything you want it to be. I havent played in a Yugioh tournament in years but I play every single day with my online friends. We do progression series, we make custom formats where we start the entire cardpool from scratch and slowly add strategies that would be cool and balanced, etc. There are so many ways to approach this game and I have done hundreds of different approaches to the game to utilize underused cards in cool ways. As long as you have a friend and an idea, you can do anything, and that includes queueing up on an afternoon to play rogue decks. The internet is a powerful tool and you can find someone, anyone, who will sit down and go “That sounds like fun. Sure, I’ll play you using X”

[@noriakikakyoin8841]

I'm not an active YGO or MTG player. But it seems for me like wizards figured out player types a long time ago (Timmy-Johnny-Spike). And they dilute packs with mostly Timmy stuff. My take out of this video - for YGO designers it is normal to print a lot of random Johnny stuff and bait these players to buy support for their favorite archetypes and go to locals and lose time and time again vs Spikes. It is a vicious circle in a way. And after certain number of letdowns players will migrate to another game just hoping to have their fun. And it may become more common nowadays due to market saturation.

[@JasonBoos2005]

Paul brings a lot of valid points to de majority of playes POV, that is not competitive

[@bunniyubel]

just my 2 cents, but I've dropped yugioh cuz I just got priced out of the game, I was an avid labrynth player, and when chaos angel, rollback and impulse released, I just can't justify spending that much money to buy those cards when here in Australia, I get like, 1 YCS and 1 regional a year lmao

[@RogueHero]

I'm a midcore player to some degree because i played and have done decently well with Hero for a long time , people forget that eventually you have to let your pet deck go and play something better if you want to compete. I put Hero down for better decks last year and haven't looked back. Other card games have this problem too but they are cheaper with better prize support which is why yugioh players are switching over. If yugioh ever got cash prizing or something on the same level of it like exclusive rarities for winning YCS and etc , i can guarantee you a lot of those same players who switched over would come right back.

[@7thHourFilms]

What if we don't want to compete and just play the game? Your solution is just "forget low power decks and play meta". I don't want to. Many people don't want to. We want a place where we can just play HERO and have some fun. But there will be that person at locals or on Master Duel that brings full power Maliss and suddenly that fun time isn't anymore. That's what we're saying. And there's nothing wrong with being more competitive but if there is going to be this giant gap between decks, then let those decks have a space where they can shine. Just like the meta decks have.

[@RogueHero]

@7thHourFilms you can always play casually with some buddies without entering locals. When games like magic had its broken formats and he'll even when I was a kid players used to play casual 2v2 and 1v1 all the time.

[@Cybertech134]

@@RogueHero Playing casually with some buddies is NOT a viable alternative. Everyone touting this shit needs to shut up and remain silent until they are capable of using their brain.

[@Stormbulaboo]

On the topic of pack fillers and bad cards, I think one of the main issues in Yu-gi-oh compared to other card games is that when an archetype is bad, ALL of those cards become pack filler, even if some of them are actually good cards just attached to a bad archetype. In comparison, I feel like in other card games even if a lot of cards from a specific playstyle/mechanic are bad, there are bound to be some that will see play. With yu-gi-oh since so many cards are tied to an archetype, that archetype needs to be good, otherwise the card is unplayable.

[@Disappointed_Philosoraptor]

i want to play a game. specifically, a thought experiment. Imagine yugioh, but both players reveal their hands at all times. There would be no gameplay. If both players are familiar with both decks, both could immediately, at a glance, figure out who wins, and who has no chance. The gameplay, the actual turns, are largely a mere illusion of player vs player interaction. In reality, most matches, I would guess 90%+, are fully deterministic. And a multiplayer game without agency is a farce. Now, there is obviously skill expression, otherwise peos wouldn't exist, but the majority of skill expression lies in readinf the meta, deckbuilding and side decking. However, even that is diminished by the all-important opeming hand luck, which is why you need super large sample size for consistent performance. This is wimply antithetical to how a turn based game is supposed to function and is the fundamental issue at the heart of the game.

[@angelcandelaria6728]

I agree with him on how much less trading there is, it sucks for people with less to spend. Now we either give away what we don’t need or hope we have a friend building a different deck to swap pulls with. I use to love having a big trade binder. Over time it became “where are the good cards” binder where only the most expensive cards are looked for now.

[@吹雪-x7o]

Not the main point of the video, but I would like to elucidate on the argument Josh made about every card game having archetypes that are over-supported and other that (as far as competitive gameplay is concerned) go directly from the cradle to the dumpster. For context, I have played several card games to varying extent, only caring about the competitive aspect of them -and failing miserably at getting anything done with it-, but pretty much always had a preference for Magic (or rather, the Standard format of Magic). I would like to start by saying that in MtG, archetypes exist but are nowhere near as important for the game as they are in (post-GOAT) Yu-Gi-Oh. For instance, if you look at the Bloomborrow set with a Yu-Gi-Oh player's eyes, you will see a mice archetype which supports certain mechanics, a lizards archetype that supports others and so on and so forth. And looking at the decklists that top Standard tournaments, one would be tempted to say Josh is right when he claims that it is the same as Yu-Gi-Oh where some archetypes are way overrepresented compared to their peers. The "mice engine" is in pretty much every red aggro deck; rabbits and bats used to be ok but completely fell off; otters have a card you see in many blue tempo decks but are otherwise completely unused and I tend to forget that birds and frogs even exist in the set. However, if you look at it through a Magic player's lenses, while you certainly notice the animal-themed archetypes due to the mechanics they support, in the end of the day what you see are white, blue, black, red and green cards, and/or cards that are more or less good for playing aggro, control, midrange or tempo, cards that ramp or cards that enable some kind of toxic combo. In other words, Standard MtG is more about the playstyle you choose for yourself than about one archetype or the other. As a matter of fact, while most competitive decks have some kind of gameplan founded on the synergy between groups of cards, *when compared to competitive Yu-Gi-Oh decks* they can comfortably be defined as "goodstuff". Because of this, the game tends to have something more of a cyclical nature. So, let's say you like playing aggro. You shouldn't expect your playing style to be the strongest with every single set rotation (crossing fingers here, I'm really worried WotC is trying to change that), and as new sets come out and older sets rotate out of the format, you will have to slightly adjust your strategy, partly because your own card pool is different and so is the most optimal way of dishing out as much damage as you can in as few turns as you can, and partly because the environment around you is also going to change, forcing you to play around different countermeasures that your opponent may have in their hand to set you off. But some shape or form of aggro deck has pretty much always been competitively viable. If by contrast you grow attached to your mice specifically, well - the competitive scene may not be right for you. But you can still play casual Commander or I guess meet up with your friends and decide to play your own custom format where only cards from certain sets are viable. Assuming your friends are masochistic enough to accept playing against Emberheart Challenger and Manifold Mouse even after Standard has finally gotten rid of them, that is.

[@frohned7099]

Mid-core player here, haven't played Yu-Gi-Oh at all since ROTA, even though I still like Yu-Gi-Oh itself, because of new card design and price points. I'm so tired of hyper consistent & efficient engines that run 20± non-engine, full combo off 1 card, and can still combo after 3+ hts if they have an extender. I also don't like the mulcharmies, regardless of their overall impact, because I see that sort of design as unhealthy in general. I've been playing Elestrals instead and, while I still keep up with YGO and watch YGO content, I've been having a ton of fun with Elestrals and haven't even had the desire to play MD.

[@some1wholikescookies912]

100% this, I went to Lorcana, but for me it was the same reason