Judo throws are useless/risky in BJJ?!?! The great concept of Makikomi throws 柔道の巻込技

[@Chadi]

Forgot to mention about the straight arm Ude Garami/Americana you can have after the impact, not just Kesa Gatame

[@robertmccurry9343]

Chadi as always incredible content bud your an open minded purist was going to resite Go Rin No sho while bone hardening but now I'm inspired so it's Radori on my Makiwara lol to know all thing with no teacher hahahahah man I've been getting very inventive when I don't always have someone willing to roll with or heck do Chi Sao kiehon or any kind of pre arranged or free sparring with sad days

[@thorrasmussen2022]

I found that makikomi into kansetsuwaza can work ok w bjj people, but it requires good control of ukes arm all the way through the throw - squeezing the upper arm in your armpit, so you know you have the elbow. (I'd just call it udegatame though - as far as I know "garami" implies twisting the arm).

[@hobowithawaterpistol9070]

Apparently you’ve never encountered a real Judoka!

[@ca1498]

@@thorrasmussen2022 Ude garami is what BJJ calls the Kimura and the Americana. In both cases the elbow is bent, and you wrap your arm around your opponent's. Ude gatame is the reverse straight armlock. My BJJ instructor calls it "tranco". All three with multiple variations are available from the kesa. You can put the bent arm under your leg that is closer to the opponent's head and just hip up or close the triangle (his triceps goes over your thigh and his forearm goes under your shin). You can also put his straight arm under the top leg shin or sometimes just push it down with your arm when the elbow rests over your thigh. I believe the Kimura is done by locking your two hands under his elbow while his arm is under your armpit, or you can also push the arm down while it is bent down. I can mostly get the Americana--I think it is the easiest to get.

[@ca1498]

There is also the "drowner" where you raise the head while putting all your weight on his diaphragm. I can hardly do it, but people who are good at kesa have done this to me quite a few times. See "Josh Barnett was able to tap Dean Lister, a BJJ legend and ADCC champion, who hadn't been submitted in 16 years..." Perhaps part of the reason it worked is that they had been fighting for 15 minutes or so.

[@jonathanmann4445]

Ive had the opposite experience with makikomi throws in bjj. Because you end up with arm but no head control the back still ends up exposed. I prefer to use an underhook to insure full shoulder control of my opponent when we land.

[@aressp]

Very good comment! I would like to add that even with head control, kesa gatame variants do not work very well in bjj as they generaly provide short time control and expose the back while the transition to a safer side control is a bit tricky. So good for judo but dangerous for bjj, especially in the slippery conditions of no-gi. Despite this, personaly I use kesa gatame a lot when I fail to pass in side control the way I would like.

[@sinjinsmythe1571]

Are you guys here judo players or bjj players practicing judo on the side.

[@aressp]

@@sinjinsmythe1571 I am tenjin shinyo ryu player. I see both as parts of the same art (or just as... bad copies of tsr :p ) . I cannot tell on which I suck more.

[@sinjinsmythe1571]

@@aressp don't you believe it's just all judo at the end of the day??

[@thorrasmussen2022]

@@sinjinsmythe1571 agreed, ju-jutsu evolved into judo and is almost considered obsolete i Japan, or somewhat an "antique" curiousity. BJJ is just different sets of judo rules (and lots of rebranding)

[@patrickschreiber5758]

Soto Maki Komi is my favourite throw since childhood ( I am almost 51 now). When crosstraining BJJ it is usually no problem to apply it. I am using the urge of BJJ Guys taking the back by exposing the right side of my body. When they remark my "failure" they immidiatly try to take the back like Pawlows Dog. That's the moment they mostly fall on Soto Maki Komi.

[@miopera40]

And wrestlers always fall to that one too, because you don't even need any sort of grip to do a soto makikomi on someone grabbing you locked like wrestlers do.

[@philipwheeler4325]

@@miopera40 I feel seen. I have fallen into exactly this trap rolling against judokas. "Wait, he is giving up the body lock just like that?" *room turns upside down*

[@imin1114]

As someone with only several months of experience in judo, I really like ko-uchi-makikomi, it's a quick and simple takedown that you can almost "shoot" like a wrestler. It can be executed after a failed ippon seoi nage, and it can be directly replicated in no-gi without big grip changes.

[@robertnegron6804]

Yes, thank you... I always found that if you're a judo guy, any kind of judo leg trip is a good way to go to take down a BJJ guy without exposing your back, whether it's kouchi makikomi, tani otoshi, ouchi gari, Kouchi gari, Sasae...any one of these will leave you much better off to landing on top of the BJJ guy and not much room for your back to be taken.

[@jankat9337]

But after kouchi makikomi you will end in uke guard? Sometimes even you will give your back? kzbin.info/www/bejne/lWLIqpp_jbF3ldk

[@AnGhaeilge]

Great stuff as always Chadi. I always found harai-goshi to be very effective in BJJ as you clear the person's hip and land with side control often. I also like foot sweeps, and BJJ players are rarely ready for them. Sasae and Hiza Guruma are great to catch people off guard, especially when they have poor posture.

[@Howleebra]

The original concept of judo was to land in a control hold down, then they made a sport out of it and things got weird. Whenever you turn a martial art into a game you'll inherently change the strategy so modern sport Judo is perfectly comfortable putting itself in a terrible predicament as long as the opponent lands on their back or side first but it forgot about the hold down transition in a misguided attempt to please the potential advertisers.

[@kananisha]

BJJ=Basically Just Judo

[@QuantumMechanic_88]

Nice one.

[@junon]

Judo = sport form of Jiu-Jitsu

[@QuantumMechanic_88]

@@junon Another nice one.

[@jeff6133]

@@junon Japanese jujutsu yeah

[@jeff6133]

@Kevin Geaslin “””BJJ””” and Sambo are the grandchildren of Japanese Ju-Jutsu, Judo being the son of it. At the same time, JJJ is the great-grandson of a bunch of unnamed, ancient Japanese-Chinese samurai/monk martial arts we’ll never know the name of. But yeah, we can say JJJ is the as-far-as-we-know mother art.

[@Quach7]

It's all rock-paper-scissor and timing. Ronda's (I call it face-to-back) throw got countered by Holm who picked her up and dumped her down. Tate's wrestling took Holm down. But Ronda beat Tate's wrestling with spinning and turning.

[@JudoMateo]

When Holm countered that throw I was pretty sure it was all over. That throw attempt was her best chance at victory, Holly really trained specifically and it paid off.

[@mikeperez8]

Ronda also seemed to have attempted that throw out of desperation. She was way out of position & had already eaten multiple punches from holm. But that rock-paper-scissor analogy is spot on.

[@ca1498]

I think it is also quite a bit a matter of skill and also a choice. I just re-watched it. Holm clinched and kept Ronda close. Ronda decided to try a judo throw by turning her back without any kuzushi. Any good wrestler and a good judoka would counter that with that pick-up/dump. Ronda just underestimated Holm's ability to do that counter. And Tate also took Ronda down with a double leg and an outside leg trip finish. Wrestling works. Given the somewhat chaotic situation that the striking introduces, a good technique by an elite MMA athlete who has trained it can work even on an elite grappler. But look at the statistics. Ronda did far many more takedowns that anyone did on her, and most of her attempts were successful. I think that is just as expected. Too bad for Ronda that she thought she could box at Holm's level. Kudos to Holms for not allowing Ronda to dominate her on the way to the ground.

[@ethienosinsky5186]

I've never understood the argument against Judo throws, most BJJ schools teach double and single leg yet similar arguments can be made against leg attacks, how many time in the History of BJJ someone ended up in a front headlock, guillotine or lapel choke because after a failed leg attack, does that mean leg attacks are invalid techniques ?

[@hasanicoward4425]

I learned Judo at a young age but they definitely can bother the shoulder of not done properly

[@napata]

As a Black Belt in BJJ and Judo, I love this content. Keep up the good work!

[@EltonBlack-vb3bm]

So you are a double Black Belt in Judo? One in ne-waza and one in tachywaza

[@albertocuellar691]

I’m a brown belt in judo just got my blue in bjj and I have bin pondering all these questions you have just covered in this video. Great video brother and greeting from Phoenix AZ.

[@senecaknowsbest8380]

Cael Sanderson got so many takedowns with an ankle pick. Watch his matches. Undefeated from youth all the way thru NCAA D1 then to Olympic Silver, his first loss. Incredible doesn’t come close to describing such a feat. Right up there with Gable, Smith, etc.

[@prodigypenn]

Sualo and Xande Ribeiro are good examples of high level BJJ guys who also train judo and know how to use the throws effectively in BJJ, also Dave Camarillo is a former Olympic hopeful who started training BJJ in order to develop his newaza, and came up with a system that transitions from the Judo throw to the ground.

[@senecaknowsbest8380]

Thank you Chadi. Appreciate the work you put in. Incredible content.

[@huntermosely7420]

Rules for throws against bjj guys Ostogari Osto otoshi Ashi waza variations. Drop SEO is very effective but you have to be really quick. Uchimata Hari ogoshi Sumi geashi Avoid tomoe nage unless you're really good at it.

[@InGrindWeCrust2010]

Superb video as usual, Chadi. Sambo has a lot of the rolling/wrapping judo throws, and slight variations are more common that make them more reliable and although you make less impact as a result, I guess that makes them more safe for practice and maybe easier to transition from. Arm spin takedown, for example. I never was very good with the Japanese names.

[@Dumplestiltzken]

Kimuras!

[@judodavid1]

You are correct. Outside of a judo match rolling over an opponent is a bad idea. Osoto does not have to be a power move. The arms can be collapsed, or angles can be used to help defeat the arms, but you are right. Most use osoto as a power move. It is my contention is that any of the sieo techniques are safe to use as long as you control your opponents shoulder. He can be by my back but as long as I can pin his shoulder into the mat I have the advantage.

[@benhaj4754]

Hi Chadi, I feel the opposite way about standard grip makikomi with the back being exposed too much in BJJ. There is a Karo Parysian highlight on YT which goes through the throws he used in MMA. Often the way he applied the Kimura grip from standing effectively set him up for a makikomi style throw. This tweak would make it much better for the added control and simultaneous threat of submission you could apply on the ground. Really interesting way to do it that I would not have thought of. Thanks for the content!

[@shadowfighter6445]

I'll keep that in mind when I go back to train again. Thank you for sharing ☺️.

[@sergiocortinhas6742]

I never had an bad expirience throwing someone in bjj because i whait to the oportunity to do it, and all depend on your oponent position. Most the time are simple techniques like kouchigari, ashibarai or tai otoshi.

[@909.3]

Hi Chadi from Puerto Rico, this video is very important to the grappling community because all makikomi techniques are very effective but very dangerous. In the video you explain explain that makikomi is a whole different way of doing a technique and this is new to me because how I was taught to do makikomi is not a variation of the technique but rather on how it is finished. A makikomi technique how I was taught is any technique that is lands hard and quickly into osaekomi so in other other words the grips don’t change when doing the technique just where and how you land. The way I train we very rarely do techniques landing in osaekomi because it would cripple us after a couple of throws if we don’t roll with the technique, and even then we do it with rolling along the technique to not injure each other and it still stings from time to time the only place makikomi is done full blast is in competition. And even then depending on what circumstances it can be considered unsportsmanlike one of the brown belts I used to train with loved ogoshi with a makikomi finish but he never did this to us because twice in competition he broke his opponent’s ribs with that technique.

[@dianecenteno5275]

Makikomi can ve a devastating throw! However, it , like other throws, can leave your back exposed in my experience. Especially if your opponent is a good wrestler or BJJ fighter. There are various adaptations that can reduce your chances of back exposure, especially in combat applications. Practice all and train safe!🙏💮

[@wsherwin1392]

My 50 years judo experience wants to remind all that BJJ is 1/4 of judo. Each throw is situational by design. I learned in South Korea that " Down Game same as up game." Wich means the principles of off Balence and hapo no kuzushi equally applied in Ne waza as Tachi waza.

[@wsherwin1392]

@Kevin Geaslin sir then your understand of Judo is limited judo is the sport of Jujitsu. BJJ is limited to only Newaza. Judo involes all aspects of a Fight. Sport Judo doesn't allow for Striking and regulated waza. Explore Kodokan judo.

[@janeygenraam7923]

@Kevin Geaslin 😆judo a small part of Gracie jiu- jutsu?? It's the other way around.

[@wsherwin1392]

@Kevin Geaslin all taught in judo but not expressed in contest. See the Kodokan BJJ evolved from one of Kanos Students.

[@wsherwin1392]

GOSHIN judo.

[@wsherwin1392]

Perhaps you have been unfortunate to have not learned judo.

[@ajherring92]

I haven't practiced Judo in a long time and even then I had stopped as a beginner. Uchi mata, seoi nagae, ogoshi and tai otoshi have all been extremely successful for me, even against some wrestlers if you can distract their arms well enough to move into position. I have gotten dumped from botched timing though. Against straight BJJ guys though? Knowing a little Judo goes a long way.

[@petkoterzievbackupchannel]

This throw is excellent my friend and the end position is good for and arm bar (of sorts). I like it, it can end a fight very quickly.

[@philipwheeler4325]

Nice to hear your take on o-soto gare. Variations of that technique pop up in multiple sources, including medieval wrestling texts (precursor to modern folkstyle). Fiore notes that by setting up that position you open yourself up to being thrown the same way. Your point about it being a strongman technique is spot on. I don't get why it's so popular with bjj guys. I would go for seoi nage over o-soto gare any day of the week, even under mma or bjj rules.

[@twinsunpredator7998]

doing judo when i was younger , i used o goshi so much as a teen for self defence discovered bjj at 34 and loved it, however i struggle to get in , been struggling to get my judo back

[@rollsgracie268]

Ronaldo Jacare Souza a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Champion that’s Really good at stand up at least for Jiujitsu he was and then he would add the Brazilian twist to stuff or bring back the Japanese twist or a little of both. I always thought he was complete pure class. There’s a KZbin video where he’s training with another guy that’s good at judo and it’s amazing his little Brazilian creative twist to it or perhaps Japanese twist that is added ground twists that is added to the stand up for the standup terms of defense exit

[@thetruemorg]

Makikomi was totally never talked about in the judo that I did for 3 years. They would relate everything involved as if it were a Kacigatami. In the mid-2000s when I moved over to doing more BJJ that Kacigatami sacrifice throws annoyed all the upper belts that I would work with. Most of them did not have enough contacts to be able to pull them off but it was the only way that I could really beat upper belt BJJ. The coaches would get annoyed that I would be in those kind of positions. The most salient argument always went to that you have the ability to take someone's back from that position. And while that's true if you just did a sacrifice throw and you move into a strong scarf hold you would take out most of the space they would have to work from and work a very effective choke or eventually move to a better position. At that time it seemed like there was a lot of an ideological war against judo because they very much did have move set just sideways to BJJ that a lot of practitioner we're vulnerable too so they ran their mouth. Nowadays BJJ is much larger and when you go to an Open mat you will see a lot more ability to deal with most judo throws. New generations of players even will do drop Seio-nagi professing that it is and always has been part of BJJ... And when you know the teacher and you're the one that taught them that move a decade before... Anyway love your videos definitely one a topic more people need to be talking about.

[@mreyna1295]

Kacigatami mean Kesa Gatame?

[@eliastrenardgarcia2105]

Great video. Makikomi throws also add an additional damage, because most times Tori lands in Uke with all the momentum. In a tatami Uke could survive. It is easy to imagine what would happen to Uke if a Makikomi is executed in the concrete.

[@eamonob84]

Osoto gari is one of the best throws/takedowns to learn. I’ve used it very often on the mats in BJJ and in real life as well. Very effective and safe for the thrower.

[@oscarpaez123]

I like using some judo techniques like uchi-mata and harai-goshi as counter moves and moves like ouchi-gari, kouchi-gari and sasae to distract and generate openings in my opponent.

[@OmegaSupremeWCheese]

Chadi, love your content man. Yeah there needs to be a deep dive on throws useful to former judoka entering BJJ. My biggest problem is I'm not used to people being 100% defensive and stalling. It's just unfamiliar territory with them in a low wrestlers stance, hips hidden far back, and alligator arms extended but not too far out. Sure you've got Sumi and Tomoe but frankly those are boring and I want to find something else. I've had some success with that back step side uchi mata, but not a lot. I've considered Korean - reverse Seoi which I've practiced on, but it's such a hard throw I'm almost afraid to do it for fear of whipping my training partners head off mats as they don't know how to fall.

[@holdenmuganda97]

Footsweeps work pretty well until they start to stand up straight. They can’t step out of footsweeps very well when they are bent over I’ve found.

[@AusarisTV]

As a person who trains both, honestly I just literally take a deep collar grip (thumb in, four fingers out) and sleeve and pull the shit out of them continuously while circling and something will come up. Either they will face plant since they’re already so low, (BJJ guys are suckers for snap downs) with no front shock absorption, meaning you can take their back easily once they hit the mat OR they will resist you pulling them by standing straight up. Once you force them to stand straight up, that’s when you can work your Judo. Remember to use combinations, circling movement, and misdirection. Kouchi Gari -> Kosoto Gari -> Osoto Gari, Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi-> Osoto Gari, Circle Step Ouchi Gari -> Circle Step Kouchi Gari, Kosoto Gari -> Seoi Otoshi, Osoto Gari -> Uchi Mata, Osoto Gari -> Harai Goshi, etc PS another throw that you can just blast BJJ guys with without a setup is Tsuri Goshi. TRUST ME.

[@OmegaSupremeWCheese]

@@AusarisTV Great advice! yeah I see the snapdowns but I get bored of them and Sumi as they're almost always there in that low grappler stance, but I've been lazy about circling. Good points on the movement and getting that deep collar grip, all of my Judo is stale so I've gotten out of randori practice, and gotten sloppy. That said I've hit a couple of Canto chokes off the snapdown, those are fun for an old-school flashback, and since BJJ rules no one cares if the collar bites across the face or if its tucked perfectly under the chin. LOL.

[@salahuddinmuhammad3251]

The older, battlefield methods, did not over-rotate an opponent. Rather, the idea was to drive the head, neck, and shoulders, directly into the ground.. There were no real ukemi. Today, the throws do not reflect the true oyo waza. Sport differs greatly. This is why the throws can be countered in sports.

[@Taekwon-Brando]

Ashi-waza/ trips like Osoto Gari are my typical go to, makikomi throws are awesome too!

[@RobertoBren]

Good video with good insight. 👍 Not being a Judoka or BJJ practioner it's an interesting topic to think about. I belive this video applies mostly to competition where you work for the points or submissions with the appropriate rules. For myself, Makikomi throws would be a "take the gift" techniques used if I have no choice but going to Ne Waza. True, that many Judo throws require a lot of knowledge and practice, especially in competition. We have less throws than Judo, basically the "go to" time proven throws. It may be simpler for us to attain a good kuzushi since we almost always start with solid Atemi "strikes". And the throws shown are for competition, those would be slightly modified so opponent lands on head or other disabling area like the neck or shoulder if used for actual defense. So I'd have to say Judo throws are effective when used in the right context.

[@PaladinJackal]

No one who knows anything in BJJ says Judo throws are useless for BJJ. Are a lot of Judo throws risky? Yes. Are some super risky? Yes. However most takedowns in general are risky though. So is almost everything in fighting, but the better you are at it the less risk there is. Makikomi does seem like it'd be helpful for BJJ. As a low rank Judoka who mains BJJ I'm glad my Sensei recently started going over it with us.

[@rafaelsoaresbiondi2849]

Greatt viddeoo! thanks from Brasil!!!!

[@marktennenhouse6869]

There is another way of training and developing Maki-Komi/wrapping throws which has apparently been either lost or forgotten. In both Judo and Wrestling, wrapping throws done by first dropping to a knee are highly effective counters to all kinds of rear body grabs/holds and, attempted over the arm grips. And, they are much faster and safer to learn because on your knees, you can control the opponents fall. Have you come across any older Judo materials on this? So far, I haven't seen anything. I know it must be documented somewhere, but I've never seen it. Have you?

[@jimlasswell4491]

I found myself travelling to the east coast of Florida to a friend's home.. He was a former Judo student of mine who had taken up Bjj. He asked me to consult at his Bjj dojo. I don't know what your history of Bjj tells you. What I experienced was a martial art, based on Judo that didn't care for the rules of Judo. Focusing on newaza alone, some knew the throws but they had no idea how to use them. Kuzushi was totally out of their realm; this included their black belts. Though I was met with mild disdain by one Brazillian sensei; he welcomed my presence, all in all they were good visits. Later I attended a Naga. There were gi and no gi matches. In every gi match if one was actually a Judoka and it was certainly evident; he won. The throw is so devastating, the subsequent osaekomi, kansetsuwaza or shimewaza is elementary. I believe that Bjj would be more suitable as a sport than Judo, if they could start on the mat. What sport Judo has turned into is most assuredly Gedan and would be unrecognizable in practice and spirit to Kano Shihan. Evolution occurs. No one can deny it. Kano knew it. He was slapped in the face by it, leading to outlawing leg bars. He sent Maeda to Brazil in 1914. Royce Gracie's ancestor was a Rokudan. Calling a Ude Garami a Kimura is a denial of Brazil's history with Judo, not an homage to Kimura. I should stop now. Chadi, you do a good job.

[@TheChemicalBassist]

When I heard about how Osoto Gari was Kimuras favorite throw, would train his legs against trees daily to strengthen it. How they said he would knock people out with osoto gari, I would wonder "why? how?!" But your comments about it here make so much sense. Great video as always

[@ClassicRockLivesOn]

I think the knocking out also had to due with the padding being minimal back then.

[@TheChemicalBassist]

@@ClassicRockLivesOn Great point

[@holdenmuganda97]

A good o Soto can make the back of the head hit the floor. That’s how you get ko’d

[@griffin2599]

We have a second-degree black belt in our judo class and he is a beast in stand-up and on the ground. I have watched him throw BJJ guys with powerful throws on the mat. The BJJ guys even told him “If I was to take that throw out on the street, I don't know that I would be able to get back up because something would be broken”

[@bodhipepe1867]

If you sit (as if to pull guard ) and when they post on you, you simontaniously go for a standing base into a(one handed lappel grip) uchimata its hard not to hit perfectly and it's almost never expected

[@rollsgracie268]

Brazilian jujitsu is kosen judo what’s the little bit of the Brazilian race car driver Sena Jits Brazilian twist so learning the standup judo completes the art and learning some wrestling makes it even better if you wish you can even go further but there’s something beautiful about completing the judo are ground and stand up

[@janeygenraam7923]

Every attack has its drawbacks not only Judo against BJJ but also just against judo. Of course, some attacks are less suitable for BJJ Because the rules are different and BJJ Guys are often better in transition especially on the ground and they also go quickly go for the back.

[@bartofilms]

Maki komi is a good and powerful throw. My only complaint historically would be that I saw several Judoka have success with it to the extent that they became too focused on it and neglected their other standing throws. If Tori gets a good wrap and some traction, resisting the throw as Uke can get your shoulder injured. Better to take the fall and eat the loss. There is a fun counter to the classic maki komi. If you sense it before Tori begins, circle quickly in the opposite direction while cross gripping Tori lappel high up. Tori may then spin himself into a nasty choke rather than throwing you, but you must be faster than he is.

[@michaelenns8872]

John Dannahar did a great video as well. Check it out once you watched this video till the end.

[@henrikg1388]

I used to love the makikomi throws, but was always afraid of ending up in a bad position for ne waza. Perhaps I should have explored it better.

[@MetalGearRex85]

I prefer using Ashi Waza techniques like Ouchi Gari and Kosoto Gake. Morote Gari, Tani Otoshi and Ura Nage work well because they are low risk. There is no ippon for throws in BJJ and a takedown is worth 2 points.

[@VovoDoMetal]

One of my best throws was osoto makikomi, but everytime I did that in BJJ I've gotten my back taken 😂

[@kevionrogers2605]

Bow as you go down. Make sure the weight driving the action is under the arm pit. Then get perpendicular once landing by circling towards their head.

[@christophervelez1561]

The reason why people say that it is too much risk and isn’t worth is is the scoring method. Let’s say I do any makikomi or big throw I only score 2 points. The largest risk is the back take, where my opponent scores 4 points. In the best case scenario I have 2 points and in the worst case scenario I have -4 points (meaning that the opponent scores 4 and I get zero) in a tournament where points and time are a factor that risk to reward matters. It’s simple game theory. In your last interview the gentleman brought up how through the game theory the most valuable thing to work is your newaza due to the fact that you don’t get ippons more than any other score that continues on the ground. Now I am a believer in the yoko tomonage and sumi gaeshi as a way to sacrifice throw and if the opponent stays on top that is now a guard pull which is a better outcome. Best case is 2 (potentially 6 if you land in mount but that is less likely) worst case is 0 and you are in a guard where you can attack. The rules dictate why someone would discard techniques. Why is guard not a common practice in judo? Because the rules don’t support making your guard active and attacking. If you escape a pin by way of shrimping into closed guard and held you’ll get stood back up. It’s not that the closed guard isn’t a valuable attacking platform. It’s better than a turtle but why do people go to turtle off a takedown. It’s not because it is the correct thing to do but it prevents the ippon by bellying down, prevents the pin, and if held for 10 seconds you get stood back up it’s all game theory. After I retire and open my own bjj school I want to make a different scoring method for bjj with a gradient takedown score awarding amplitude and finishing position. I think that would be how to change the course of the art and if enough people pick up the scoring method larger organizations will make the change. Hopefully.

[@Chadi]

Many don’t realise that the wrapping motion of the arm not only pins the arm but also the shoulder too which severely hinders any back take attempt, a quick rotation of the hips after the throw will immediately eliminate any chance of a back take too plus the shoulder control.

[@christophervelez1561]

@@Chadi I agree but in terms of risks the game theory favors wrestling shots, foot sweeps, and yes guard pulling (really should incentivize tomonage and sumi gaeshi as well)

[@miguelarcanjo6383]

Chadi who are the masters on the vídeo?! The old?

[@rustyshackleford735]

Because of the rules in American folkstyle wrestling I only learned throws that cause you to go down with your opponent keeping control of them and even after learning throws that can leave me standing, I still prefer these "wrapping" techniques.

[@potterspride1]

In general, Judo is a sport martial art. A lot of the practical applications are very rarely trained. It is also has lost a lot of the ferocity that goes into actual combat.

[@jamiekelly7280]

John danaher is well worth a look, a 5-6th degree black belt in BJJ, what I do like is that he uses the Japanese terms for throws.

[@BURGAWMMA]

Real judo throws are awesome because they land in a control technique called osaekomi but the modern sport has twisted the game into such a knot that it's actually a viable tactic to give up your back as long as your opponent lands on his first which is a betrayal of the original Concept in my opinion

[@henrikg1388]

There are a lot of ippons awarded these days that are not real ippons. If you don't execute the throw "with control" and just roll over, it shouldn't be an ippon IMO. An effect of the two score system perhaps.

[@BURGAWMMA]

@@henrikg1388 yes EXACTALLY... i miss the old minor score system as the new Judo is far too reliant on "Shido orchestration"

[@haraldodunkirk1432]

Some judo is very useful in bjj. However, freestyle wrestling is overall just so much more functional from the POV of bjj rules (and MMA rules for that matter). I can elaborate but it gets old…

[@jonmoris9354]

makikomis are my favorite throws and i have found my way to transition on the ground and finish bjj guys quite easily

[@Kd240sx]

As a purple beltch In bjj I can vouch and say we do love osoto-gari! 😅 but I’ve taught my lil ninjas to drop to one knee as there go for osoto to use gravity and momentum to take down bigger opponent

[@jesseshaffer3951]

Does BJJ have standing armbars? The makikomi conversation changes if so.

[@edwardkim8525]

Yes. Standing shoulder elbow and wrist locks are all legal.

[@jesseshaffer3951]

@@edwardkim8525 interesting. This + makikomi makes for some dangerous takedowns. I hope they can find a good way to regulate

[@edwardkim8525]

@@jesseshaffer3951 agreed. I doubt they will regulate though. First, High level take downs just do not happen in most high level BJJ matches as most rule sets we compete in will incentivise going to ground with full control with no incentives for amplitude, beauty, “I can kill on concrete”, or knockout power. (If you can injure or knock someone out the ref will stop the match with you as winner) this means guard pulling (meh), butt scooting (boo!) Some mediocre ashiwaza, the occasional decent drop seoi (in our context) and of course loads of collar drags, ankle picks and single/double legs after low tech kumikata (by judo standards). As it’s rare I doubt it will ever make it mainstream but I hope it does, not because I want to see people break their arms as they fall before they can even tap, but because that would change the meta with takedowns and maybe we will see something approximating cool old school judo with great unlimited newaza afterwards. (Or would it just mean more guard pulling out of fear? boo) Second, say what you will about the BJJ community, a big proportion are actually interested in rules/regulations with a light touch. Regulations for infighting moves are far and few, compared to judo and all judo rule sets I’ve seen. The IBJJF, the most conservative federation, has recently made knee reaps legal again which was for as long as I have been training been a cloud over our heads. There are whispers of allowing slams on guard jumpers for adults but I will only believe that when I see it.

[@kagenoshinobimono]

harai makikomi you can do with a kimura grip. Karo Parisyan used them in MMA. another common makikomi with a kimura grip is the sotomakikomi

[@frankcastle7777]

what about in a real fight on hard ground. Slams work and can end the altercation fast. How much BBJ is not good on hard ground also but works on a nice matt. There is sport and there is the O-SHIT real world life or death events.

[@andrewferris1903]

Congratulations, you've just discovered Sambo

[@GalryZ]

It's not the techniques, it's the Kuzushi. You watch these high level Judo matches and they need to really go hard to throw somebody and it eventually leads them to expose their back or give the opponent a superior position. It works in MMA because of the cage. Blocks the opponent's ability to get superior position before you. The other alternative is transitioning to various leg lock entries from a judo style throw and from there move to a traditional mount or side control. Over Hooks > Under Hooks More forgiving if you have to bail. At the end of the day learn Judo, Wrestling and then BJJ. You're golden.

[@dooods3622]

chadi did you know that Maruyama's father has a KZbin channel where he is now talking about uchimata

[@Patrick-sheen]

A beautiful throw but it seems that a quick response is simply to grab hold of the right arm as you go towards the ground and then take the back. A lot of back exposure here that in BJJ and JJJ we are taught to take advantage of. Just a question and not a criticism..Judo a wonderful art.

[@808souljahxl5]

In my opinion, makikomi techniques are the best, most realistic, and most devastating in actual self defense scenarios where you may have to subdue an opponent quickly. From my own experience on the giving and receiving ends, it also tends to deliver harder impacts.

[@miopera40]

Not when you are fighting more than one, going to the floor in that scenario and you are pretty much done.

[@808souljahxl5]

@@miopera40 There are always exceptions to all scenarios. In a multiple attacker situation the best thing to do (if possible) is run away.

[@armandovela4415]

Good stuff!!! (bjj purple belt)

[@lilosnitch3247]

Chadi have u ever competed before?

[@rodrigocrispim]

Makikomi throws are forbidden in my dojo. My sensei consider very dangerous for shoulders.

[@rh45sth62]

Chadi, have you checked this guy named Dan Camerillo ?; former high level Judo guy who used sweeps, uchimatas etc to transition to armlock in grappling matches. There's an old highlight clip, one of my favorites, under the following reference: "Dan Camarillo | Judo and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Highlights | ARMHUNTER" Here's the link: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qXawnX2fibyBnM0

[@miopera40]

The japanese never did a jiujitsu throw without having first some sort of a lock or punch, at least that was the way it was done at some point a while ago. And there wasn't one single jiujitsu throw that I remember that used any sort of kimono grip. Judo is always good because randori gives you the endurance without getting hurt and also helps with the posture and perfecting the balance and movements. Jiujitsu is not for competition, the moment you start practicing it as a competition sport the moment you start losing the right mindset and reflexes.

[@RadicalTrivia]

One time, Chris Dempsey (kzbin.info/www/bejne/mWaugnh6r9ObbMk) hit a Makikomi on me, and the mat was slippery, so he lost his footing and landed on me to the point where ALL the air was shot out of my lungs fast enough to force to make an "oof" noise. Devastating, indeed.

[@joseluki]

Why throw when BJJ rules encourage to sit on the floor and be passive?

[@rollsgracie268]

Also Khabib mixes his judo in with the wrestling quite nice if you know the jujitsu and the wrestling in the judo all together you probably could play chess quite well hence Khabib

[@Quach7]

5:48 That pin looks suspect as your face is right there in front of your opponent's knee.

[@jasonkennedy1670]

BJJ mats are not for Judo

[@johndrake5467]

Hmmmm....when I was actively training BJJ the drop seonage was the only judo throw I was ever able to consistently pull off. I never thought about someone taking my back from that and indeed that never happened. Not saying that it couldn't happen. And note I learned the technique in BJJ class. I've never actually studied judo.

[@stillwatercamargo9606]

You dont sound like someone who trained for more than a year

[@johndrake5467]

@@stillwatercamargo9606 You're entitled to your opinion oh great keyboard warrior.

[@rickfinsta2951]

If you retain your hikite on the arm and remain standing, then you have Juji Gatame or Ude Garami off the throw for almost all major throws. Also, try out the O Soto Gari Makikomi right off the grip. Absolutely no one expects it but after you do it once they get wise to it fast and you need to set it up another way. Makikomis are no more dangerous than other techniques, though the fact that you see them more in the heavyweight categories means you have a ton of mass coming down and potentially causing injury. But I hit Soto Makikomi off my Ippon Seoi Nage grip often. If they defend the Seoi, go over for the Makikomi. Travis Stevens has a good video showing how he does the same thing.

[@kenn.alexander]

Judo is as useless for bjj as bjj is for judo because the rule sets are completely different. The similarities are the gi and a few submission techniques, otherwise the two sports are counterproductive to one another.

[@jjs3890]

Coming from a Japanese jujitsu (self defense) stand point, Jujitsu/ Judo throws are generally finishers on solid ground, minus the rolling over the opponent or even going to the ground with them. It pays to be comfortable on the ground, but should be avoided if possible. As far as throws in BJJ, idk. I guess it would be good to know but perhaps not all that necessary. 🤷

[@isaaccruz4691]

My sensei would say that the only difference between karate and judo is that you let the floor do the work for you in judo..

[@cbroo69]

You mention your throw against Rokus as an example, but you only followed through because you were doing Judo and aiming to get his back on the mat properly and probably being nice and jumping over him instead of landing on him.

[@TheOriginalJAX]

O-Soto Gari has never been a "strongman" throw to me personally, makes me think kata Guruma or like Ipon Seonagi where the raw upper body strength directly benefits your ability to execute the throw. Other than lots of practice, Foot work and speed helped me the most with being effective using Osoto Gari. In my opinion most of the magic in reaps, hooks, sweeps in particular come from mainly foot work and speed, the rest just seems to fall into place much easier with those aspects down.

[@BW022]

I would disagree. It's one of the two throws we first teach. When first taught, it is down straight backwards more of a leg sweep. Lovely. However, in practice it suffers three main issues. a) you almost never get people in that position when they get better. b) both of you are typically in almost the exact same position at one point in the throw. c) if anything is off (and it doesn't work) when going straight back, your opponent often can do the throw on you. I've seen this with white belt kids a lot. They don't know much else so they stand side-by-side and both tried the same o-soto. At higher-levels, few people try it backwards unless your opponents feet come together (rare). Most try it 1/4 or 1/2 sideways and its more a throw over your leg rather than a sweep or hook, typically only sweeping after the person is off the ground. If your opponent resists, its a far more "strongman" through than almost any other. I'll put it this way, I almost never see that throw in sparing when against a larger or stronger opponent. This is one of the last throws I'd expect to see a kid do on an adult, someone practicing with someone 2-3 weight divisions higher, a slight girl vs. hefty guy. It's rarely a quick finesse move at even mid-belts and up.

[@TheOriginalJAX]

@@BW022 Well I would argue that relying on getting your opponent into position is a bad strategy this is why foot work and speed matters, your opponent will always resist. if you close the distance quickly to the commit point you obtain the position advantage pass the guard have them off balance while having momentum behind you, this is how you get pass needing the raw strength to throw them. saying that you need to know how to grip with a loose thumb to be able to do this otherwise you will be too rigid topside. but yeah you flub getting to the commit point then sure you are getting thrown every time most likely. Also when you are chest to chest so speak at that commit point your leg should already be in the air, no lifting it up afterwards for that outer hook as that is way to late and slow but that's where having the footwork down matters. Your observations are not wrong overall, it will be attempted far less often against larger opponents and its the one of the first throws you learn but one of the last you master and for good reason it looks completely different when an experienced judoka goes for it but that because of all the refinement they have gone through over years of practice. honestly I haven't even conveyed half the detail and breakdown in how I personally perform Osoto gari, just some of the main differentiators that mitigates the issues you are highlighting which are some of primary weaknesses of that throw specifically.

[@BW022]

@@TheOriginalJAX "Well I would argue that..." IMO, that argument applies to almost any throw at mid-to-high-levels. By even green belt, I never got someone on an osto-gari as a first move. You just can't get a reasonably experienced Judoka in that position through movement -- but that is true of most throws. At those levels, it is almost all combinations. I loved seeing it in competitions as I always considered it a lot of skill to get an opponent in that position. However, from teaching, far more than any ashi techniques, it often required leg power, as you can get two people locked into a counter osto-gari competition, and often turned into a 1/4 or 1/2 hip thrown vs. the strait back off-balance attack.

[@scumbagbrocialist5885]

Hey Chadi, I've watched your videos for a few years now, and being honest your videos were one of the things that made me consider transitioning to Judo from BJJ (which I know is the opposite of how most people end up training, at least in my country). Lately it seems like every video is apologia to the BJJ community. I just wanted to say I wish you didn't spend so much time "debunking" misconceptions about our sport and art. It seems like all of your recent videos are trying to point out that "Judo is not useless for BJJ" or otherwise trying to justify our existence to the BJJ community. At my club we get a fresh blue belt (and once a fresh purple belt) about every two months. They usually say they want to cross train and are welcomed onto the mat, but they usually come with a bunch of bad habits given our rule set. Sometimes they end up trying to "use" their BJJ but the end result is always the same, they end up getting ragdolled in tachiwaza and they usually end up getting pinned until the time is up in newaza (we do short, intense newaza rounds). They usually get paired with our black belts, so the only injuries they get are their pride, but they never end up coming back after one or two lessons. Of the maybe dozen such people who have showed up since I started at my current club only a single competitive black belt (if I'm not counting myself) has stayed to actually learn some Judo. By your own statements you're a hobbyist brown belt, not a big competitor, and you were able to toss Rokas from martial arts journey with high amplitude throws like Hane Goshi, which are really hard to pull off, and you were doing the standard judo practice of keeping the new white belt safe. However, because you didn't spike him on his head until he threw up from the concussion he goes and posts an video essay about how Judo is fake and doesn't work (which was clearly clickbait and designed to generate controversy) when he very clearly ducked randori with a black belt competitor (I'm sure you train with quite a few that would have been willing to oblige). Let it go. Way more of us cross train anyway, so odds are if they stay in the sport long enough they will eventually run into some white belt in a double weave that will keep them humble. I hope to see you eventually return to some of the fascinating history of our sport and biopics of significant teachers and competitors. Maybe a "history of Tai Otoshi" or "History of Osoto Gari" or something.

[@rollsgracie268]

Hence Jacare salsa

[@beskeptic]

Judo is very hard! That's why to get good at it you must walk the path that transforms you. It's not for someone who wants shortcuts to win a match... You won't get any value out of judo with that mentality

[@leoashura8086]

Simple, don't go for turn throws.

[@rollsgracie268]

Makikomi 👍

[@rebelape4257]

Really, i would have thought makikomi throws would be the literal worst of the turning throws

[@LifesNotHereToSatisfyYou]

Grappling is all about risk that’s why you train in a control environment risk everything and improve quicker stop being scared to engage in everything

[@MrKahunadog]

I don't understand why you take your uchimata example of ippon scoring and compare it to bjj. You could have simply thrown him flat if pinning was the choice or on his head if damage was the intent. Simply release pressure once uke breaks the apex of the throw so you can cover.

[@metalrocks999]

Start your own tournament and invite bjj and judo guys.

[@yiannis.demetriou9696]

Wrestling is a 100 times more effective

[@zommellemmoz3999]

The DON'T use them man! FFS rather see the shortcoming in BJJ - the absence of striking and kicking techniques.

[@combatprinciplesmma]

I don't think they are useless, but certain throws are way too risky.

[@sinematographynaction]

🤫

[@rns7426]

Interestingly, as a judoka, I have never found problems with a properly executed judo throw vs BJJ. Now it might be my tastes in throws, I’m not sure. But I’ve never had the problem of giving up my back even on a stuffed throw. I’ve noticed it’s the guys that don’t know how to throw much less knowing anything about judo that have such criticisms about judo giving up the back. When I have taken time to explain and demo to BJJ buddies they have changed their thought process and so far have always expressed that they now understand that judo is as technical standing up as BJJ is on the ground. Now I’m stuffed throws. I’ve been stuffed or executed a bad throw and had to fight off my back. That would be a BJJ guys preference. I hate fighting off my back but it’s not unknown territory and highly preferable to having my back taken. For Uchi Mata, just use the spinning Uchi with the intent to pin and there is no back take.

[@doubleb222able]

So I need to get online and start making videos refuting some of these claims you make. "Not getting your back taken off of a makikomi" ?... are you insane. A low level grappler could easily take the back of a high level judoka in this position. It's terrible position for control.

[@Chadi]

You clearly don’t see how the wrapped arm is a crucial component of this, it also pins the shoulder, hindering severely the back take, also I specifically mentioned the rotation of the hips immediately, you don’t hit the throw and stay there, please listen fully before making these comments.

[@doubleb222able]

@@Chadi you definitely don't understand ne waza. You would never pin me or anyone in my gym like this, no matter how hard you tried. You would absolutely get your back taken.

[@Chadi]

@@doubleb222able ok make these videos