Drum Teacher Reacts to Damon Che w/Don Caballaro - Episode 91

[@aotokumo]

“What Burns Never Returns” and “American Don” are my favorite DonCab albums. Older lineup really crushed it.

[@Alifesalife]

Two of the best albums ever written and recorded

[@dalekay9ine]

Punkgasm is better than both seriously!!!

[@alejandrojesusvelasquezcal9153]

Punkgasm is perhaps their most innovative work. Che really nailed it.

[@zacharybrooks959]

What Burns is definitely my fav from them. Absolute killer album and super experimental

[@Cvillain626]

I think it's gotta be DonCab 2 for me, Dick Suffers Is Furious With You is one of my favorite songs in all of music. Plus that album is just filled with bangers...For Respect is amazing too

[@vruez13]

Had the pleasure of sharing the stage with these guys, Damon Che is a masterful, weirdo. Love him, he literally has a drum floor plan he NAILS to stages. No shit.

[@wormskull2454]

Same here, I’ve seen him play 4 or 5 times & Ive opened for both Don Cab & Bellini (a few days before he stole the tour van & left the band stranded)

[@ahumblerequest5222]

@@wormskull2454who stole?

[@insektuo]

I saw and met him, what a character, i love it😂 and yeah he had this wooden thing with holmes for the stands and shit

[@robdaniel3211]

You need to listen to the album “American Don” by Don Caballero. Three piece: guitarist and bassist uses looping pedals to record live and then Damon Che puts on one of the best drum performances over that album.

[@inextremis28]

It's so funny seeing someone's first reaction to math rock, specially a guy like Damon Che. Glad you liked it.

[@BjornBols]

Damon recently started uploading to KZbin about a month ago, he's got a quality video performance that will probs be easier to observe than a lot of the old taped live stuff!

[@jpegsmall9176]

I filmed that, thank you for saying the video quality was good lol

[@redlipslouis]

Still praying Steve revisits Damon Che with one of these high quality videos 😭

[@bernardchartier3696]

Damon Che is a giant. His arms are giant. He's massive. Look at him when, sometimes, his arms are on his legs to keep the energy this kind of music demands. A kind of Knopfler technician with his tool ! Respect.

[@christophermueller6808]

Studied sloppiness. Knopfler. Joe Walsh too.

[@SlowerRiot]

@@christophermueller6808 Ian Williams.

[@robnagle4119]

Best thing about this video is seeing this guy discover this band for the first time and really digging it. I’ve been a don cab fan for a long time.

[@plikkkk]

You kept saying “I’m going to get killed for this” but then offered descriptions that were pretty spot on! Damon wanted to push music just like Cage and Reich did. One of the most underrated virtuosos of all time.

[@EdDunkle]

Punk rock Phillip Glass is a good description

[@roberttreanor7252]

def check out the Don Caballero album American Don! also, he played sticks with no tips they had butt ends on both sides.

[@fastfaps]

@JayEssArr don't forget what burns and don cab 2 holy shit those albums are my life as well as American don

[@mateostenberg]

So funny you mention Phillip Glass, Cold Knees In April off their second album was arranged by Glass for The Don! Crazy I haven't seen that mentioned yet. Don Caballero 2 is a fantastic album to sit down and listen to, and especially to have a little smoke to hah.

[@seaofseeof]

Given how strongly their American Don album was influenced, seemingly, by Steve Reich. I think "punk rock Philip Glass" is probably exactly what they were going for.

[@shawnphase]

damon che changed the game for tons of drummers, for sure. he'll forever be a huge inspiration in both my playing and approach to the kit as an instrument. spectacular drummer, but also an incredible guitarist too. dont sleep on his other band thee speaking canaries, theres killer tunage there too.

[@IsThisRealLife23]

How the band worked in an Earth Wind & Fire's September.... 7:39

[@keyluv8596]

For the Algorithm, don’t know anything about drums but this was interesting.

[@florianff8673]

Happy to see more of the math rock drummers and happy to see you getting into it. Hope the episodes on Tatsuya Yoshida and Greg Saunier are still happening. "The Defenestrator" of St. Louis based band Yowie is also a great and creative drummer in that realm and definitely worth checking out.

[@jeremyyamma4364]

Second Yowie! Insanity. Defenestrator is such a great dude, put me up at his pad after a Yowie/Aleuchatistas/Gnarwhals show in St. Louis. RESPECT!

[@yurirepollo1494]

you might really like britt walford from slint (and the breeders when they started), check out nosferatu man or good morning captain by slint

[@yurirepollo1494]

also for don caballero i wouldve listened to the peter criss jazz, fire back about your new baby’s sex or chief sitting duck

[@garybraunns5431]

Saw Don Caballero a few times in the early 90s in Pennsylvania. Damon was incredible back then. He's a pretty good guitar player as well.

[@mpower1969]

DonCab came out of Pittsburgh.

[@nicolasbertin8552]

Don Caballero (not Caballaro) is one of the only bands on Earth where the rhythmic section is played by the guitars, and the drummer is actually the soloist. It's not as evident from this song, but from their 2 best albums, "What burns never returns" and "2", the drummer is purely doing solos. It's still groovy, but the hypnotic and inevitable rhythm comes from the guitars mainly.

[@robengels7215]

"Unresolved Karma" - IMO a standalone masterpiece and one of the best drum performances I have ever heard

[@scott555]

Damon's snare placement and posture are a *direct* reflection of his creative approach. I totally get it 'cause I've gone through similar evolutions in drum placement, experimentation, styling. He's curled up and reaching beneath, and that's not just a physical description. He's stooped over the void ladling chaos into being. Makes perfect sense. That being said, if he's not crippled by now I'd be surprised.

[@jamesdedakis7967]

Love your reaction to this. You nailed his style and their sound immediately. "punk rock Philip glass" is not a bad descriptor. I always called it Stravinsky Rock. He does have a killer right foot, but has the double bass, too. I forget the sticks he uses, but they're marching sticks with two butt ends, haha.

[@TheGlyde18]

Glad you enjoyed it dude! Also the guitarist is the same dude from Battles, the math-rock lives on.

[@heroineburgh]

Not in this video it isn't. The video he showed was the later version of Don Cab that released stuff on Relapse (not Touch & Go). That guitarist is Jason from Creta Bourzia.

[@zacharybrooks959]

His snare placement was very unique and intended. It gave his drumming a particular sound and allowed every snare hit to have that rim-shot sound accompanying his hits. So cool

[@robdaniel3211]

One of the times I saw him, he nailed his drums to the stage.

[@christophermueller6808]

Has too. Carpeted bricks don't hold up. Dude rolls his legs on the outside, as if his legs were a pair of butterfly wings.

[@meatsuit6922]

You should react to Gabe Serbian from The Locust! He passed recently and he was one of the most unique, ridiculously talented, underrated and simultaneously one of the most influential drummers of the 90s underground music scene and I think he really deserves more shine in this little section of KZbin, would suggest reacting to the drum cam AOTKPTA video or the video of the Locust live at Che Cafe

[@bloodaonadeline8346]

damn really?

[@sinnison23]

I love when someone learns about The Don.

[@BenedictusEsDomine]

Probably the best reaction video I’ve ever seen. Great drummer, band, and reaction!

[@lucacartner7247]

This was a great first take of Damon Che. You hit the nail on the head. His setup and technique are what makes his playing unique. He does have a double bass pedal.

[@Alifesalife]

Please listen to the opening track from What Burns Never Returns: Don Caballero 3!

[@eatthem5829]

Stratosphere

[@thewhitegarveytwg8912]

Analyze Delivering the Groceries at 120 BPM by Don Cab.

[@michaelyahner6695]

its 138 bpm my dude

[@doghanky]

You're wrong about him improvising. Listen to the records and watch the live stuff. But cool you did this.

[@MarkQuick0411]

Don Cab 3 will always be one of my favorite drum grooves of all time

[@jeremycampbell9048]

You just saw the best drummer ever

[@christophermueller6808]

Damon is one of the great American drummers, without doubt.

[@mikebott6940]

@@christophermueller6808 Billy Cobham would like a word !

[@MrBownze]

Uh...no.

[@jadedandbitter]

@@christophermueller6808 one of the all time greats. Now driving cabs in Pittsburgh :/

[@Lycanthropy54or]

@@mikebott6940if you mean middle American he was born in Panama. But yes Billy cobham is beyond amazing and in a league of his own

[@caseydavin3830]

been a fansince respect and now I’m ripping the looper with my battlesbetween goodandevol on KZbin

[@thegreyhoundnyc]

Dude is thee heavyweight champ, period.

[@SlowerRiot]

subtle!

[@thegreyhoundnyc]

@@SlowerRiot HA!

[@WordToMomsYo]

I saw them a few times in the 90’s.. Che always had double bass drum pedals. PS - I love that you did this.. I’d definitely buy you a beer just to sit and listen to you drop some knowledge about drumming.

[@BrianKishreviews]

You should cover the Deerhoof drummer. His setup alone is very unique. Also, your videos are energetic and cool.

[@hippywolf]

Punk Rock Phillip Glass is so spot on-I don’t care what anyone says. Especially given that he was a drummer and a half life, the punk rock band from the 80s. I’m also pretty sure his dad or grandfather was a proper jazz drummer so it’s in his blood, not to discount the fact that he’s incredibly talented. I’ve also jammed/improvised with Damon on drums on one occasion-on a left handed kit no less-and he was incredible. The Octopus! Chances are in all the footage you see life he’s also probably drank an entire bottle of vodka which could also contribute to his reputation outside of the drums. But that doesn’t change the music at all. I think Miles Davis (or another great bandleader) said something to the extent that it doesn’t matter if they’re a nice person as long as they can play. There’s an album that came out in the early 2000’s that’s all solo tracks from drummers in different bands including Damon Che. His song is called “Oh Susanna“ and is really good. I remember asking him if he did any overdubs and I might just as well have asked him if he does t flush the toilet after he shits.

[@PlatnumWarriorAitzel]

Hey dude give a try to What burns never returns of don cab, the first song Don Caballero 3 it's gonna blow your mind

[@TwoandaHater]

I agree with you, this song was way more listenable than the ones for those other drummers who led you here.

[@Max_Kelly]

I love this guy, he's a pioneer and an alien. Even ignoring his drum placement, the way he moves is so odd - almost reminds me of a rock version of Ari Hoenig. So cerebral and deliberate. Big fan! Enjoyed your breakdown of his playing.

[@FunkadelicPancho]

Holy fuck I've been waiting for this for months! Thank you!! Damon is the MAN!

[@rezuveil]

IMO This is some of the best shit all time, this video was awesome! Love your content Junkdrummer TV!

[@croneskull]

was not expecting this. very happy to see someone react to this band/this drummer!

[@danmarshall5895]

"I hate playing to time signatures" Damon Che

[@droleheart]

You should react to Takashi Kashikura of the Japanese band toe. Really fine jazz-influenced math rock drumming

[@michaelyahner6695]

yaaaassss

[@C4103]

My favorite drummer

[@helgahasenbein]

He is also an amazing guitarist. His side project Thee Spekaing Canaries released some awesome Dinosaur Jr. meets Van Halen indie albums

[@musicauniversalis7096]

True story: I was really broke a couple of years back and I used to listen to Don Caballero on my headphones while standing on the breadline. I don't know why. Maybe it was distracting my brain to how much it sucked standing on a breadline and not being able to afford to buy food.

[@scottpoyer5678]

I've been wanting to see you react to Damon for a while now, Love Don Cab!

[@matthewdeapo3515]

"Punk rock jam band" is a pretty great description, no matter what Don Cab would think of that. One of my favorite bands (and drummers) ever!

[@tylergaffney1521]

Love seeing some math rock on here, Don Caballero is amazing! Also, Mac's Bar is an absolute hole in the wall, but some of my favorite shows were at this place.

[@maxturnersvideos]

You should react to the early work of tera melos. The drumming on their untitled album is insane

[@michaelcorcoran8768]

There's an excellent article that you can still find on PDFs and screenshots called the last days of Don Caballero. It highlighted their last contentious tour, the car accident that was physically be the final nail in the coffin of the bamd -- or at least it's effectively Seminole and original lineup.

[@derrickallard1135]

You should definitely go down an avant-garde drumming reaction rabbit hole!!! My top suggestions would be Chris corsano, Milford graves, ben bennett.

[@jeremyyamma4364]

All killer reccos RIP MILFORD

[@hardlycore]

Keep doing Ian Williams stuff, do Storm And Stress next 😂

[@DeanWesterfield]

Check out Han Bennink if you're gonna do avant-garde drummers.

[@samwellshmh]

Don Caballaro are an amazing band, his playing always reminded me of john theodore from mars volta. You mention regarding the fills all being improv but they are all exactly the same as the album. This song is called "Palm trees in the fecking bahamas" off of the album world class listening problem which is my favourite album of theirs

[@christophermueller6808]

The fills are pretty much exact. Yup.

[@DoctorGenesis]

Nice react. Yoshida Tatsuya is a hugely influential drummer who played with Ruins and ruinsalone. He influenced a lot of the chippendales of the world and has done some complicated prog rock drumming mixed with ??????

[@FunkadelicPancho]

He apparently set his snare like that so he could rimshot every hit which still doesn't make any sense to me but whatever

[@brandonvu5429]

He said his long arms makes it hurt when he does a rimshot, and since he does a rimshot all the time it's easier to just have it low like that.

[@FunkadelicPancho]

@@brandonvu5429 makes sense I guess. Crazy still how he can play that well and that fast while having to cover a much larger distance than every other drummer in the world. Hes a class act and will forever be in my top 10

[@christophermueller6808]

No. In this video he's palm-butting the snare into a new grip. I believe he's also palm-muting the ring off of some snare hits. His snare has about 4 strings on it, from what I remember. I saw him with a thin-ass piccolo with maybe five medium tension strings, and he was controlling the ring with his palm.

[@tonedoctagon]

@@christophermueller6808 he’s palm muting? where are you seeing this

[@christophermueller6808]

@@tonedoctagon Watching video again. Forgot where it is. ...looking for original video now...

[@GGRRIITTZZ]

The song their playing is "Palm Trees In The Fecking Bahamas"

[@soundescapemn]

Just wanted to say first off - great video. Love the insight and can tell you're super enthusiastic about this stuff. I'm psyched for you. I absolutely adore Don Cab. IMO if you do another one of these videos (and I personally think you should), check out Slice Where You Live Like Pie if you haven't already.

[@spoitras]

He's using almost cylindrical sticks that are big, AND he hits with the butt ends

[@christophermueller6808]

He plays marching band sticks from what I remember. You can see him use that butt-end move to switch grips in the attached video.

[@cakeisbetterthenfish]

When I lost my bet by The Dillinger Escape Plan. Really anything by the DEP. Pretty fun stuff.

[@ConnorHealeyProject]

Greetings my friend! Appreciate what you do! Just thought I’d throw this out there. Two good things to remember when considering this brand of “math rock” is... 1. It largely developed out of post punk and early emo, and should be conceptualized as part of the blues -> punk -> and on, and as a dialect of these languages of resistance, so to speak. Evan Rapport (not sure if I spelled that right) has a good article that touches on this called “Hearing Punk as Blues.” 2. You are actually dead on hearing ‘60s minimalism in this. I always encourage people to investigate the nyc avant-garde scene in the 1960s if they are interested in punk, as the minimalist, drone minimalist, and fluxus movements don’t so much overlap with proto punk, as much as they function as the other side of the same coin. The Warhol crowd, Velvet Underground, the stooges, were all constantly engaged in that world not only in participating in days long musical happenings in la Monte young’s loft, but also in blending the “high” or “art”, with the “low” or “pop.” A concept - the breakdown of this kind of hierarchy - that is thought of as one of the hallmarks of post-modernity. The most notable example being John Cale coming from his work with the theatre of eternal music with Young, Conrad, Riley, et al. to VU. I often like to point out that on the stooges self-titled record, track 3 “We will fall”, which follows “1969” and “I wanna be your dog” and precedes “No Fun” is a 10’30” drone minimalist piece with neo-Dadaist chanting. Another reason why it’s good to listen to the entire record, because further context can be essential in understanding what the music is vs. what we impose upon it. See “Please Kill Me” and Gendron’s “From Montmartre to the Mudd Club” My apologies if I’m spewing something you are well aware of, or being pedantic. Just thought I would put this out there for those who are interested. Be well and I’m looking forward to hearing you think about music some more.

[@cakeisbetterthenfish]

@@ConnorHealeyProject Wow. That is a lot of information. I always referred to TDEP as my jazz music, but I never went that deep down the rabbit hole, so thank you for that piece of knowledge. This is why I think I like metal so much, they always pull their inspiration from the strangest places, like The Human Abstract who has a huge classical influence.

[@caseydavin3830]

1st time I sawer em @ the bottom of the hill in sf 95-6ish I was feet from the drums and my ears were hearing the double bass only there was just one kick so again the whole damn show I’m just mind bent on seeing drum rolls with one hand and full on slayer double bass action and then I finally acknowledged that my eyes were now adjusting to the unbelievable fact...... one pedal!! and oh yeah it was my 3rd time seeing a favorite gutarist with the same amp I was using at the time sunn beta lead 2 used by caseywdavin of agnes morhead sf,ca trey Spruance of me bungle secret chiefs, and king buzzo of melvins and fantomas

[@oksotheresthat6185]

Glad to find this!! Underrated drummer for sure. Another drummer from around that same time period Tim Dow from Shiner, anything from the Lula Divinia album, namely the song My Life As a Housewife.

[@jadedandbitter]

and Jason Gerkin who replaced him as well. Gerks can beat up a kit with the best of them, and was one of the key sonic elements of Starless, which imo is their best album.

[@GreatHair101]

You should check out TTNG. Another great math rock band with some killer drums curtesy of Chris Collis. Their audiotree sessions or any recent live videos are incredible.

[@thenotsoguitarguy9429]

So I know I'm late to the party, but over at the Don Caballero Official channel Damon has uploaded some recent play alongs. If you really want to have your wig split, maybe do a reaction to "Haven't Lived Afro Pop." It's a pretty decent recording and you get a better picture of just how weird his setup really is. I was like you. The first time I saw this guy live (in Atlanta back in the early 2000's) it broke my brain trying to figure out how he managed to do so many wonderful things with such a strange setup and such bad posture and such loose hands. He's one of those drummers who occasionally you can watch his hands and legs and see what he did but somehow you can't connect what you heard with how it looked. It's both awesome and frustrating, ha ha.

[@canofpeas4495]

not the best era/line up of this band to really get a good idea of how incredible they were. still cool to see your reaction and that you dig it.

[@Dflo6969]

Secretly your best video my man

[@colincheyne]

Quoting Earth Wind and Fire was dope as hell.

[@XeRo333]

React to Drayven Davidson from when he was with Davey Suicide and now with Twiztid! Excellent showmanship, heavy hitting player, & a beast of a drummer

[@canofpeas4495]

also in terms of setup, he uses ride cymbals as splashes/crashes. i believe he uses marching drum sticks, or whatever the thickest stick is, but he plays them backwards. he essentially sets it all up to get the hardest hits possible. but the gap he has between his snare and high tom is bonkers!!! he's the Octopus! you definitely need to watch the First Unitarian Church show from 1999.

[@first2letters]

I’m guessing the snare setup is a combination of him being 8 feet tall and using flipped-around marching sticks so better to let gravity do the work

[@Ravenwish1990]

A drummer I love is Jukka Nevalainen from Nightwish, you may want to check it out. He's pretty awesome!

[@gbag37]

You said they probably weren’t going for a “punk rock philip glass” sound, but they actually were inspired by hypnotic classical music like Glass and Steve Reich, and have said as much in interviews

[@cymbolic_space1832]

The Final Dark Days of Don Caballero by Fred Weaver google that. its this epic tour diary written by Don Cabs friend and opening act while on tour with them during their last tour. such a good read! Also someone mentioned Slint. Brit Walford is the drummer. check them out. Listen to Nan Ding off of Tweeze, the band was like 16 and recorded with Steve Albini, and then listen to Goodmorning Captain off of Spider land. they were like two years old. it will give you a good idea of their scope at such a green age. god bless. j.

[@Shawn_at_Vinyl_Minimalist]

I saw these guys live in 93. Punk rock Phillip Glass is EXACTLY what they are going for !!

[@frankpalomacity]

don caballero rules

[@michaelyahner6695]

I was watching some other old Don footage and trying to remember the one time I saw them, it was this show. Can confirm Damon nails/bolts his kit to the floor. I didn’t realize what a cult following they had, but wow the love lives on

[@vados_w1n7er]

You should definitely check Shawn Crowder, he is incredible drummer, absolutely love him

[@DanHintz]

you need to react next to: Weasel Walter of The Flying Luttenbachers, and then Greg Saunier of Deerhoof.

[@jeremyyamma4364]

Your punk Phillip Glass assessment was pretty spot on! I spoke with their old guitar player, Ian Williams, after a show, and he mentioned Steve Reich as one of his influences -so yeah they (or he) were definitely into the minimalist composers. BTW, this stuff’s great but IMO just put on Don Cab 2 with headphones, man. This is their later stuff of a changing lineup band with Damon being the lynchpin.

[@bransinanderson]

Years ago when I saw Don Caballero in Chicago at the Beat Kitchen, in-between songs I yelled out, "Get naked" in the crowd. Damon sweaty as ever leans into his mic and says, "I'll get naked, when you get talent pal!" The next song busts in. It was glorious.

[@jimduffieldjr5225]

Check out Joe Easley of “the dismemberment plan”. Other side is my favorite song.

[@Darthxcannabis]

Hey, I just got into your stuff. I've looked through but haven't seen him, have you reacted to Dan Peter's from Mudgoney? He sits a brief stint with Nirvava right before Grohl. He is one of my favorites.

[@Darthxcannabis]

Here comes sickness is one of my favorites of his.

[@AAA-fh5kd]

those are 'the licks from the record' interestingly enough.

[@orpancho]

Nice!, there must be a good live rendition of Don Caballero 3 for you to check eventually.

[@dbmdrums1105]

Steve sir Zindabad. Wow got to check out this drummer too. Hey Steve and other old school metal fans .........Gar Samuleson from Megadeth drum reaction!

[@clashcor]

You need another Blake Richardson reaction(BTBAM) while not on cough medicine ;)

[@JunkdrummerTV]

Haha yeah you're probably right

[@cngrinder9423]

don caballero is the best band as spiderland is the best album, greetings from argentina

[@Wo1926]

I feel like punk rock Phillip glass is about exactly what they were going for lol good description

[@udomatthiasdrums5322]

love it!!

[@juliannkretonn4623]

A much better quality live video series for don cab was a Seattle concert recorded by Stanford Lee Wilson. The channel of that name has the video up still. Highly recommend you check it out

[@brandonvu5429]

Fuck I've been waiting for this. American Don is amazing if you're looking for something like the vibe in the video, and what burns never returns is similar but a little more distorted. Everything before that is more in line with Zach Hill and Brian Chippendale.

[@elahem6940]

Daru Jones is the guy he's talking about who plays in Jack White's solo band. Definitely another weird set up worth checking out

[@jacobsada-keele4253]

You should think about reacting to the drum cams for Matt Mingus of Prisoner and Strawberry's Wake by Dance Gavin Dance, he's their drummer and he's got a super groovy way of playing the drums

[@madmonty4761]

I was thinking the same thing about the pop punk feel to the song in spots.

[@PrismaticSpray]

It's understandable for you to assume Damon Che improvises, but you're wrong. Also, anyone reading this needs to listen to Lula Divinia by Shiner. Tim Dow is another one of the unsung and incomparable greats. so ... fucking ... good

[@PrismaticSpray]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/fojOh6yfpatgqZY

[@DeafBlindMan]

Don caballero (Damon Che), Hella (Zach Hill) and Lightning bolt (Brian Chippendale) are the staples of math rock. Math is like the punk version of prog. Extra info: Damon is the only one that uses a double pedal and yes he uses marching sticks. Don Caballero 3 is insane (kzbin.info/www/bejne/rpLWo2iboZqYsKc) and "fire back about your new baby's sex" is an amazing song. Recommended records: Don Cab: American don, What burns never returns. Hella: Hold your horse is, Chirpin' hard (no Zach hill though), Falam Dynasty EP. Lightning bolt: Wonderful rainbow, Ride the skies

[@JunkdrummerTV]

I've done videos on all 3!

[@DeafBlindMan]

@@JunkdrummerTV Yeah I'm watching, just discovered your channel, I added listening recommendations to the previous comment

[@thegreyhoundnyc]

He does play a double bass pedal, just not in this cut, he really utilizes it in the over the top stuff to great affect. This cut is don cab easy listening, almost like thier version of cheeseburger in paradise.

[@bbeaup]

You’re right homie. The guitarist ian williams did actually like steve reich quite a bit.

[@Dflo6969]

Dude, you are the best. I would try to explore math rock a little bit more. Tera Melos is a really amazing band that is considered math rock as well.