If I'm honest, modes held me back

[@JustinOstrander]

Let me address two things: 1) I don’t think I’ve ever had a natural musical ability. It comes down to one thing only: hours. Not just any hours. FOCUSED hours of practice. Sweat. Frustration. Almost walking away a thousand times but not actually doing so. Tiny, incremental breakthroughs that add up over the years. No one’s fingers go to the right notes automatically. All I’m saying in this video is that focusing on chord tones instead of thinking what scale or mode I’m in got me where I wanted to go. And where I wanted to go, as I said in the video, is playing melodies. Saying something with my playing that is compelling to others in the same way that I find my favorite players compelling. More on this to come… 2) I’m not saying that I don’t use ANY framework at all. I’m just saying that when I think of scales or modes, that tends to be what comes out. When I think of chord tones, something more melodic comes out. At this point, I’m really not trying to think of anything…just listening and trying to get out on the guitar the melodies I hear in my head. Pat Metheny has said that he thinks in triads and uses arpeggios to get around the fretboard. I think this is a lot closer to what I’m doing. More on this to come as well…

[@stevec9972]

I think they call that sub conscious competence. Do all the theory study to a level your not thinking of it when playing. I'm not there yet

[@DavidHendersonMusicChannel]

Ok, the song is a country song with 3 chords C, F, G. What do you play on the solo and explain how that isn't math or a mode? Major scale = Ionian Mode = 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 , 6, 7. Looks like math and modes to me? What is the Nashville Numbering system? Math? That progression is a I IV V. Based on what? I = C = 1,3,5 IV = F = 1,3,5 V = G = 1,3,5 C major Pentatonic = 1, 2, ,3 ,5, 6 1,3,5 of what? Chord tones of what? Degrees of what? I, IV, V of what? Wouldn't that be of a scale which is also a mode? My point being music is based on math and modes whether you are thinking about or not. ;-)

[@JustinOstrander]

@@DavidHendersonMusicChannelAll I’m saying is, I’m focusing more on the chord tones you listed out and not so much on the scale formulas, etc. You might think that way, and that’s fine. But I find that I play more compelling, melodic stuff when I *don’t* think that way.

[@DavidHendersonMusicChannel]

@@JustinOstrander What I am saying is the triads you are focusing on are based on modes/scales you are not focused on. And that all that harmony that you are not focused on is based on math. But it is all still there whether you happen to think about it or not. Like nouns, verbs, adjectives, etc... when we speak. BTW, I am able to think about it in way more than one way which I am sure you are too. It all works! That's the beauty of music....thanks!!

[@DominicHudson79]

I understand both points being made but it is a big stretch to say you don’t want to hear math in music when modern country music is so full of cliche based entirely on the number of any given chord. Of course everybody wants to free their mind and play from the heart but you guys are under pressure, banging out songs on the clock and employ a number system and the common phrases/cliche’s/devices associated with it to get the job done.

[@jasonwilliams6042]

I’m so glad that you said this! I think Lenny Kravitz once said: I’d rather hear someone play one A note over and over again with passion than to hear someone play scales all over the place. That really resonated with me as a guitar player growing up.

[@lou.yorke.x]

Joe Strummer said something to the effect that he would rather listen to a novice struggle to play at the edge of their ability, and pull it off, then listen to a virtuoso.

[@danpetersonmusic]

I wonder if Mr Kravitz would listen to someone play modes with passion. That person would be Carlos Santana, who regularly used modal ideas in his playing. I could keep going with a list hundreds of names long but Santana is KNOWN for his passion. The point is you can know your instrument AND play with passion since those things don’t cancel each other out.

[@johnnychacon9978]

I think the best soloing advice I got from a KZbin teacher was : forget modes and learn phrases that are inspired from the music your trying to solo to. He was a old jazz guitarist and said he listen’s to music and finds a song within a song that inspires him. I do that and really does help.

[@TylerWilhelm-tj8tw]

I must be missing something…. I play all the same styles of music as Justin and use modes constantly. And think of it as such. - dropping a mixolydian lick in when a b7 chord comes is 🤌🏻 - Playing minor over major to get that blues growl at the peak of a solo is 🤌🏻 - swapping between Lydian and mixolydian in a ‘fire on the mountain’ 4-5 chord progression is 🤌🏻 - dropping that natural 6 of a Dorian scale when doing a bluesy solo 🤌🏻 I see how it doesn’t work for all, but it works for me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[@jodyinalaska1]

Looking forward to and patiently awaiting your guitar courses! Great video! Happy Thanksgiving!

[@memyselfandi3202]

Everything Justin mentioned about shapes and modes rings true for me. We can lean them but if we don't know how to put them together it is useless. I'd love to learn more!

[@jogo2000]

My guitar teacher showed me the mixolydian and dorian modes and studying and listening to how those modes sound like has really opened up my harmonic palette when I improvise. I think modes can be a great teaching vehicle if you don't look at them too mechanically.

[@michaeldematteis3409]

Yes there awesome.i just look at them as extensions of the major scale.always look at everything from the major scale.makes it much easier for me.its all about the chord progression.once I figured out if you start with a d chord,it doesn’t mean it’s in the key of d always.big lightbulb moment

[@erikberg8352]

Jake at Signals Music Studio is a very technical thinker (and a great teacher!) but explained modes as feelings rather than specific entities. This really helped me understand how to use 7th chords, substitute chords, borrowed chords, etc. There isn't a specific formula for anything, the notes should advance the feeling. It's great to hear @justinostrander bring a similar conclusion from a very different journey. And the hat tip to Jimmy Page's emoting rather than shredding is huge.

[@rolandfrye]

Modes are going for parallel and relative thinking. I bet you think completely differently about your approach to every song you play.

[@Kevinschart]

Modes simply allow you to experiment with major scale, mangle it, and "name" it. All the little licks he played sure sounded like some kind of mode to me. You can either reinvent the wheel or skip the line and learn modes.

[@kevinmusso2397]

I am so thankful that you are on YT. Things are happening here that are unlike other channels. The best thing you can share with us is YOU. We are getting priceless info from your life experiences, and they are a wellspring. THANK YOU.

[@TNNLZ]

It’s all about the chords… This is the approach I want to take - Thanks for this 👍

[@fiddlefolk]

I learned the biggest portion of my playing from being in cover bands.... Copying other guitar players ....Tones, techniques , fx usage, etc.....The interesting thing I found is that I would copy them note for note and some where along the way, I had interjected my own subtle thing to it. "Stealing" from other players is a great way to develop your own style.

[@lefujyou]

I disagree ! Understanding modes is crucial to understanding harmony ,because you used modes wrong doesn’t make them wrong to learn and understand harmony 😮of course the song and music is the most important thing .☮️❤️✨

[@JustinOstrander]

I think I come up with cooler and more singable parts the less I think about the framework of a scale/mode and the more I just use chord tones. It’s subjective for sure.

[@loveguitars]

Hey Justin, Awesome Video!! 🔥🎸 Please make a course. 🙏🔥🎸I will buy it!🙏

[@mikemorris2159]

You are a great speaker/communicator. Not as easy as it looks. Not to mention an inspiring player. Love the video. Happy holidays!

[@JustinOstrander]

Thanks a ton!

[@waterknot1]

Modes are not just patterns. They are tonalities. Each mode has a different flavor. Focusing on the sound is more important than the pattern.

[@circadevices]

This is so invaluable. Thank you, Justin. So very appreciated.

[@billclay5785]

This video sold me on buying your course. I’ve only been playing for a couple years and I thought pentatonic scales were the be all end all… man, I’ve got a lot of ground to make up to learn how to play more melodically and creatively… 🫤 Thanks Justin! 🙂

[@ebeep]

Obviously only speaking for myself, but an understanding of modes helps me navigate other people's compositions when thrown in to a situation. The chords of the song create the mood/vibe and an understanding of modes, not just as a scale but as an emphasis or perspective from one of the 7 chords of a given major scale, helps me know where I am and what chords are immediately available to me in a given moment/position. I am still responding to the melodic lines my brain is creating on the spot and doing my best to materialize them immediately. I'm not playing patterns, modal understanding allows me to find those notes in my head on the fretboard on the spot/in the moment. Modes are seen as fragments, but they are of course are all just the one scale they're based in. CAGED and modes are the same information, the same 7 intervals. We all connect with concepts in our own way. Again, the chords tell us the modality, it's like a compass or a "You are here" spot on a map in a place you've never been before.

[@william91786]

Really enjoying the channel! I would be interested in more content like this if you are willing. Basically, how you would learn guitar now if you had to start over in order to optimize your time. Lessons related to this would be very cool!

[@MrVyrtuoso]

The problem is the misperception that modes is for providing patterns over which to shred. No, modes provides a set of alternative tonalities to a given group of selected pitches that make up one particular tonality, also known as a scale. In other words, modes is for expanding the range of sounds you can get both vertically and horizontally with one scale in one key. Guitarists reveal themselves to be piss poor musicians if modes are constrained to providing some rudimentary vocabulary to playing variant lines. There's a relationship between modes and harmonic functions, and which mode you play over movements from one harmonic function to another in that context can make you sound inside or outside the movement, and this helps to generate interest in the music by way of creating tension and resolution.

[@erickkuhni6359]

This is a good comment - I'm not sure how modes are being taught now, but it sounds like in this thread they are being unnecessarily associated with guitar shredding, which really isn't even a good application of the modes. It's even weirder when the modes are being contrasted against the "chord-tone" approach, since the modes contain the harmonic information necessary to do that. Modes though, take it a step further by giving the harmonic information to be a bit more expressive than that by allowing you access upper extensions of the chord that may not be so obvious from the chords themselves. The chord-tone approach is great, and something that's worth studying, but it's also fairly generic and safe to simply play the pleasing notes that are moving with the chord. In fact, I would say that as a matter of music being "math", ie, some set of prescriptive musical formulas, the chord-tone approach is explicitly formulaic. It tells you what notes to play over the chord you are hearing.

[@PeterFischer1908]

It's NEVER about scale positions etc it's ALWAYS about modal harmony/chord progressions. Always. That's one of the most misunderstood topics in popular music.

[@StevieWonder824]

LOVE this video. Only question. When you’re thinking about the chords are you just thinking about what chord voicing you want? Also, what notes are you trying to use to walk into the next chord? I’d really appreciate a video explaining this. I share the exact same heart desire you do in just PLAYING and FEELING the chord progression and heart behind the song. I find myself being trapped in the pentatonic box to go from one chord to the next. I’m just mainly curious as to what notes you’re thinking about using to walk into the next chord. Thank you for your insight!😃

[@JustinOstrander]

I guess it’s somewhat subjective. What color do you want to hear? One example, when I go from G to Bb (both major triads), and I’m playing G and Bb single notes, I think the A sounds best between them (it’s the 2 of G and the 7 of Bb), but you might like Ab (it would give a dominant 7 feel to the Bb chord, but it may sound wrong being a b9 to the G).

[@raybehrman9505]

Thanks Justin for saying it so well & convincingly pointing out the years of strugle that were not heading the right direction !!! Just Subscribed

[@southtxguitarist8926]

No offense, but this is a classic case of not understanding fitness for purpose. The teaching of modes for improvising coincided with jazz musicians composing and playing _modal music_ starting in the late 1950's. Tunes like So What? (Miles Davis), Impressions (John Coltrane), Cantaloupe Island (Herbie Hancock), and many others were based on chords that didn't share a common key and usually lasted for more than a few measures, so playing the basic chord tones only would have been very limiting. In So What?, for example, there's 16 measures of Dm7, then 8 of Ebm7, then 8 more of Dm7 before the form starts over. The D Dorian scale aka mode has 7 notes which all sound good when held over a Dm7, so you're free to come up with endless melodies and patterns for those first 16 measures, then it moves up a 1/2 step to Ebm7, etc. Also, in the case of these musicians we're talking about tons of high level experience playing difficult music before they ever considered modes; they didn't start with modes and suddenly - voila! - they were badasses. In progressions like the one Justin is using in the video above the chords are TRIADS and are all in the key of G major. Playing "modes" over each chord is nonsensical because it's not a modal progression, it's _tonal_ progression. On top of that, holding on to the extensions (7th, 9th, 11th, and 13th) to triads in a simple setting like a pop or country tune often sounds "wrong" to us, so noodling over a mode in these situations doesn't work. Chord tones and pentatonics rule in those situations. The other side of this coin is musicians who supposedly play only "by ear" are usually completely lost when trying to play over songs with more complex harmony because they don't understand and haven't practiced chord/scale relationships. Give your typical "rock" guitarist a solo on Stevie Wonder's song Creepin' and he or she will crap the bed, because the harmony doesn't stay in one key and the chords are beyond simple triads. And yes, learning how to play over progressions like that might seem a lot like math at first, but like most things in life simply requires a lot of practice to master. I've had many very good professional guitarists who've come for lessons and quit after a few of them because it wasn't coming quickly or easily to them. That's fine, BTW. We're talking about an art form, so it's up to each of us to choose what we want to learn and express.

[@lavalizard1]

Breath of fresh air - enlightening and inspiring.

[@LilOlFunnyBoy]

The problem is that modes are often misunderstood by guitar players looking for ways into music theory or expanding their melodic ideas. Modes are just ways to describe the interval pattern of scales. They're not scale shapes that are played from root to octave and back down. If you're playing notes from C maj over a Cmaj7 you're not suddenly playing F Lydian if the chord changes to Fmaj7. C Ionian is not the same as G mixolydian. It's confusing for guitar players without some background knowledge of how scales and diatonic harmony work. What they probably don't realise is that they are already using modes when they mix minor and major pentatonic, or add an F# to their A minor pentatonic licks. Modes are just often tought badly/confusingly and guitar players expect them to be tools that they are not.

[@nicrosser1428]

Great video,, I quit scales ect, now I just try to play vocal melodies when soloing.

[@xx-ev2sq]

People think of modes all wrong. Someone once said to me Music doesnt describe theory, theory describes music. Perfect in modes discussion. I can create a melody with a tone center of G (key of G), but the melody has notes that arent in the Gmaj scale. and thats where modes come in. If my melody has the notes G - A - B - C - D - E - F, I would use G Mixolydian . Melody determines lead lines if youre playing melodically

[@TimsGuitarWorldwithTimFeskorn]

Justin, Much thanks to you for covering all the things that are dear to me RE: Guitar. Could you cover triads and triad pairs on a video in the future. I've hit a plateau in my playing and its put the brakes on my practice and overall enthusiasm for playing. My KZbin video production is at an all time low. I want to confidently provide great video's but I think I need to get past this glitch in my progress as a player. Honestly I think i'm an OK player but I need to get past this.

[@deadvolume]

Modes are sounds: you need to play C Major, C Dorian, C Phrygian, C Lydian etc. to really hear the sound of them properly and treat them as their own keys with their own harmony to really get the sound in your ears. Most of them are not used for pop / rock / blues etc. because they are simply inappropriate sounds to use in those styles. Learning the sound of intervals against a root note is way more valuable than just learning a bunch of visual patterns and running them up and down. Chord tones are essential and tie into this whole sound/listening idea (crazy I know). Wow I sure said the word sound a lot there didn't I?

[@Grant_Ferstat]

I jumped on this when I saw the title because I was really interested to hear your take on it Justin. When I started playing lead guitar I went to a teacher who immediately got me into scales and modes. I found though, when I started playing in original bands, playing vocal/lyric based music I couldn't really apply it. It was almost like I had to unlearn what I'd learned...or that way of thinking. These days I just generally try to create a part in my head paying a lot of attention to respect the vocal melody because, as I said I'm playing vocally driven music. I guess most of us are really!

[@donbishop6994]

I'm not a huge fan of sales and modes. My first instructor worded it in a way that sat with me. If you can hear it in your head, you can play it with your hands. That seems to be the way to go for me, I have a decent ear, so it works rather well.

[@edbernardmusic3599]

Only if you have a certain amount of technique and knowledge.@@donbishop6994

[@NadaSurfinAB]

Let me start by saying that your approach to soloing is my approach to soloing. I taught myself intervals, not scales for the same mathematical and feel reasons you have. Where I wish I had a better grasp of modes is for pulling out surf twang. I was in the middle of a worship song one day at church, and I could feel it coming. I took a 4 bar break in the middle of the song, and I was touching on Dick Dale - and it totally worked. I don’t know which mode it was, but it was something like a klezmer mode. I have a thing for klezmer, especially pre-war, and I’m not even a fan of clarinets generally. I like flamenco for the same reason. The region north of Africa was a melting pot of cultures and the music reflects it. I find modes, including surf twang, clear my very western pallet and intuitions a bit, but I’m not fluent in them. Guess I just admitted to being a musical gringo. I’m surprised to hear modes coming out of top 40 radio more and more. Every once in a while one will catch my ear at work.

[@tonepleb]

Modes are so useful… and they have nothing to do with being a technical player. Modes are inversions of a scale. They each have a sound unique to that mode , and most modes (more modes of the major scale ) are commonly used in modern day music. It’s extremely useful to be able to identify these sounds and put a name to them. It’s a common misconception, especially in the Guitar world that modes are all about shapes and patterns… However, modes are just a musical concept, one that can expand your language. … and Jimmy page, great example of someone that used modes in a musical way and wasn’t a technical player.

[@erickkuhni6359]

Part of the problem from these comments is that there seems to be a perception that the modes are a set of scale shapes that hair-metal guitar shredders use to mindlessly noodle over the fret-board with. That's not the best use for them Outside of the context of session work - If a person wanted to do the opposite of the chord tone approach, and they wanted to play on the outside, the modes could tell you how to do that and stay in key. The modes can help you identify the chords of the closely related chords to current one, so if you wanted to improvise with a chord tone approach that was similar to your current chord, but wanted to explore a small degree of outsidedness, the modes can help with that. This is a bit "mathy" I suppose, but I completely reject the fundamental argument that having an intellectual basis for developing ideas relates this idea that you are "playing math", or that somehow the music develops this lifelessness. I don't see a good argument against the modes, but a lot bad perception about them.

[@fatcatsound]

Myself and a buddy were taking a look at Carol Kaye talking about her earlier career. She said back in the day, they weren't thinking of scales and basing everything off of them. They were thinking of chord tones. I thought that was well and good for a pop musician but then we heard her playing with Joe Pass and well, never mind. She obviously knows what she's talking about. Wow!

[@JustinOstrander]

Yeah, great point. Pat Metheny is a big chord tone stickler as well.

[@ClarenceHW]

Have you ever seen Carol Kaye play guitar? She's a great bebop soloist. Also saw her and Joe Pass, she asked Joe to play bass and she played his ES-175.

[@TonyThomas10000]

Have you checked out the "pitch axis theory" as popularized by Joe Satriani? The most useful modes for pop music are Ionian, Aeolian, Dorian and Mixolydian. That is pretty much all you need.

[@olearywu]

Compelling and illuminating. As DC Berman put it, "All my favorite singers couldn't sing." So true. Go K State, too. 😊

[@michaeleaster1815]

Wow, I feel seen and wish I saw this 30 years ago... (I also have two math degrees!) The way I describe it: both an aviation engineer and an eagle understand the principles of flight, but in different ways. To me, Jimmy Page, EVH, The Beatles, and other greats are eagles when it comes to theory: they know it on an abstract, intuitive level. They couldn't explain sh!t at a whiteboard, but they sure can execute.

[@19501960]

Always felt that, creativity not maths. Like working in a DAW, you come up with a creative idea, then spend ages, messing with levels and plugins, hey the idea is gone.

[@DjembeDoug]

Those are probably the worst examples of musicians who can’t explain music theory ❤

[@adeptgopnik]

they definitely knew theory. I dont think hes saying you shouldnt learn theory. I think hes just saying you dont need it to write parts. Its great for explaining parts though.@@DjembeDoug

[@zenlandzipline]

@@DjembeDougWes

[@AndiPicker]

@@DjembeDoug Petrucci, Vai, Satriani 🙂

[@gr500music6]

The note "C" is the root in the key of C. But what is the square root? (hint: Lawrence Welk knew.)

[@beaco70]

You wonderfully put into words my whole philosophy. Thanks!

[@MarkScott-u5l]

I think it’s more than what you teach Justin, and that of course is inspiring itself. It’s your delivery. Your presentation-demeanor and attitude is so peaceful and calming. People need that. Thx

[@AddisonSauvan]

This was amazing! At the end you said “everything is chords”. On a practical level, would you say spending time learning chords and their inversions inside and out on the fretboard is the quickest path to executing this type of thought process really well? Looking forward to your course! Thanks for all the wisdom you share.

[@JustinOstrander]

One can’t know too many chord shapes :)

[@mooseymoose]

If you learn chord construction then all the shapes are taken care of.@@JustinOstrander

[@jeffscott1006]

When I started playing bass I was going to show the bass world that I had arrived. I started to learn the more aggressive styles of bass, slap, tap and all that crap. One day I was listening to the bass hero de jour and realized that I didnt like that type of music in the least. I put on some Motown and joined an R&B band and never looked back.

[@danpetersonmusic]

The title of this video should be “if I’m honest, modes helped me”. Here’s the plot hole: knowing what triads and chord tones are is VERY difficult without knowing a diatonic scale (AKA a mode). Learning any amount of music theory is going to be near impossible without knowing a diatonic scale (AKA a mode). Even the Nashville Number System is fully based on knowing a diatonic scale (AKA a mode) and Guthrie and Justin use that every single day to make a living. I have been playing professionally for 40 years (US Army Band & USMC Band) and count Grammy winners as my former students and I can promise you without reservation that learning the modes on your guitar will help you. It will help your technique and train your ear. I can also tell you learning modes is one step of the process and that you do get past it to the next thing…unless of course you let someone on the internet convince you it isn’t worth it…in that case you will always be on the other side of that obstacle while the rest of us move on.

[@JustinOstrander]

This video can be distilled down to: chords, not scales. “But chords come from scales; they’re the same thing!” If that helps you, fine. For me, it’s so much more about harmony. I’m far from the first to think this. Pat Metheny is a great example.

[@vonkrach1797]

Hey Justin, I play guitar on songs in Germany, thank you for that video. I really connected with what you said, but I do have one question. You said everything is chords and that your are not thinking about keys or scales or anything, just about chords. I get that, but chords can be more than just the root, third or five, as you know. For example the flat 7 in a dominant chord. My main question is, wile improvising as you did in the video, do you avoid any further harmonic information like a flat 7 on that Bb in the G - Bb - Emaj7 cadens? Or do you consider the numbersystem/ the harmonic function of the chords? For me it would be quite important to include that flat 7 on the Bb, because of the sonic pull to Ebmaj7. And that would need an understanding and consideration of the key(s) you are in. Maybe you are only using the pentatonic or purely triads in these kind of situation, but I doubt that. Especially when you are playing over a progression with key changes, at least I need to have an understanding of the harmonic function and key’s I’m in. For me, that would not be too far from modes, because I view them as vertical arppegios, like triads with added colour (information). Mixolydian = major with flat 7, dorian = minor with 6 and flat 7, and so on… All the best from Germany.

[@JustinOstrander]

For the music I generally play on, simple is king. Simple hooks with excellent feel. I tend to throw chord extensions into the mix very sparsely.

[@FuegoJaguar]

People in Nashville are playing minor right? That’s a mode. No mixolydian blues rock going on? Little hard to believe.

[@JustinOstrander]

If you look at it that way, sure. Every scale is a mode. I’m just saying, I focus more on chord tones. Some people are arguing that it’s the same thing, and that’s fine.

[@flashbak01]

Creativity doesn't come from technical prowess. It comes from feeling and inspiration and being a conduit for the music. Those who don't possess it, dissect it!

[@georgepace7011]

It never ceases to fascinate me how we (the guitar nerd universe inhabitants) on the one hand idolize players like Page, Knopfler, Gilmore, Hendrix, etc whose philosophy and approach aligns with yours, yet on the other hand are seduced by the allure of pure (non-musical) technical proficiency. Your course will stand out in a very positive way. Looking forward.

[@tristanavakian]

Yes - chord tones. Play the changes... And further to your point, scales aren't really where its at... intervals are where the emotional content and storytelling potential of the changes lie.

[@TomCPlus1]

Yes, yes, and yes.

[@japanjay]

Nailed it Justin. It was Derek Trucks who really opened my ears to what honest playing sounds like, and it sounds nothing like straight up scales and modes. Targeting chord tones and knowing the song inside and out is what’s important to finding your voice.

[@edbernardmusic3599]

How do you know what a chord tone is? Why learn that but not modes?

[@japanjay]

@@edbernardmusic3599 As Justin said, it depends on what you’re trying to accomplish with the instrument. If you’re wanting to be more expressive and melodic, knowing how to target chord tones is essential. If you’re motivated by technical skill and fast playing, then sure, learning all the modes in all positions will help you to achieve that. You choose where to focus your time to get the results you’re after.

[@edbernardmusic3599]

Modes aren't positions, they're notes. You use them all the time in slow playing and melodies.@@japanjay

[@edbernardmusic3599]

Arpeggios are all chord tones. You're not required to play them fast.@@japanjay

[@japanjay]

@@edbernardmusic3599 Yep, there aren’t any rules on how you should approach making music, it’s all just notes in the end. How technical you want to get is up to the individual. The point was it’s sometimes better to lead with the heart instead of the head.

[@samwaters1146]

Excellent!!! Your manner of explaining the concepts you are discussing are great! Your approach is so incredibly accurate to real life and what I refer to as “real guitar” playing. I don’t mean to dismiss those that know the scales, the modes, and have spent years on technique. There is certainly something to be said for that and I certainly admire those such as Steve Via (who is a personal hero)and Tim Henson, their technique and proficiency across the fretboard is absolutely incredible. But being able to improvise and weave a melody or a lead in and around the chords of the song are in my opinion an entirely different animal and you have done an excellent job of explaining that and how that works

[@knzznk3507]

Modes are rather useless if one is playing something that is locked in a key. This is true even if there are some occasional borrowed chords like secondary dominants etc. However, they're immensely useful when you start encountering material that is jumping all over the place (even something as simple as jazz standards). To put it short, modes are chords. They're just chords in a linear form. Something like lydian is the sound of a major seventh chord. When you're soloing over maj7 you seem to "think" mainly chord tones. I prefer to think/hear the whole harmony of a maj7, which includes not only the four chord tones but also the last three missing ones (9, #11 and 13). For me something like lydian is not a scale, or a mode, it's first and foremost a sound(!). If I see random maj7, without any apparent connection to a song's diatonic harmony, I hear and play lydian (and so do you btw, whether you think it as such or not).

[@JustinOstrander]

I think that’s a great point that ultimately chords become harmonized scales as you extend them. Your Lydian comment is interesting…do you hear maj7s as 4 chords?

[@marcsullivan7987]

A useful way to think about modes is in terms of types of chord progressions (songs, and parts of songs)… Ex if a song is in C and then the next chord is Bb, well, that’s probably C mixolydian, which means the chords are built from the parent scale of F major. Modes are most usefully used to understand how music SOUNDS. Dorian has a sound, mixolydian has a sound, etc The example given in the video (g, am, c, d) are all in the same parent scale (G major). They are all the same 7 notes If however, the chords were Gm, C, Bb, C… then they all come from F major. So it’s G Dorian. I don’t think of it as “scale patterns” …it’s more of what is the sound, what is the parent scale

[@JustinOstrander]

What would you say is the parent scale to the 2nd chord progression? (G Bb Ebmaj7)

[@marcsullivan7987]

@@JustinOstrander Well, there isn’t one for that one, it’s not diatonic. Modes are diatonic. I wasn’t intending to be contrary I really appreciate your reply, and love your channel. I was commenting bc understanding modes that way (and not as running patterns on the fretboard) was very useful to me in understanding how music “works”., particularly in the case of many common chord progressions. I don’t think anyone “needs” to know it, but it can demystify some elemental aspects. Btw: I immediately made a loop of the G Bb Ebmaj7 after watching, and was enjoying playing over it (although without your excellent taste and touch)

[@WizardOfArc]

Truth! You don’t need modes if you just play chord tones and throw in your spice between them…. (Or foreshadow the next chords notes)

[@johnmaloney1681]

Bingo!

[@moebloggs7219]

Modes are flavors! Io = vanilla, Myxo = jazzy, Dori = bluesy, Aol = bluesy-jazzy, Phryg = spanish.... on and on..... circle of 4ths and beyond. I appreciate your take on it all!

[@taipanOuch1]

I agree with the context of the explanation. If you set aside technique and think about what makes the "dorian" sound. The b7 and b3. Now you have a label for the sound. That is the value of the modes . A label for a sound. Learning to recognize the sound of modes is the money. Modes don't belong in the technique column. Audiation and communcation.

[@CornholeNetwork]

So great you are doing instruction. You have very quickly become my favorite guitar player since you launched your channel and I have always wondered- how on earth do you come up with those note choices and have such unreal timing to be so musical. All I can say is THANK YOU!

[@nrmcclung]

My high school son is getting good and eyeballing school jazz band for next year. I was trying to share THIS EXACT IDEA with him, but I couldn’t articulate it this well. Your “chords through the solo” section is EVERYTHING! It mirrors the best advice on musicianship I ever received. I just sent him this video. I’m going to make him watch it. Twice. 🤘🏽💪👍

[@JustinOstrander]

Thanks a ton!

[@PotemkinBUMP225]

I never thought of modes as a pattern. To me it’s just a tool that helps me understand what my ear is hearing when the tonal center shifts or is set to another scale degree other than the root of the key. If I’m playing the notes in Cmajor scale against a chord progression centered around an Eminor with the bass note being E, my ear is hearing intervals from E not C so the c scale now takes on a different sound or works in another mode. This would be Phrygian. It’s just a way of organizing sounds and being able to communicate to another musician what that is. But yes it’s not required to make good music. Most good musicians end up playing many things that they have no idea how to effectively communicate to someone else how to do. As far as the pattern thing I always thought it was just a useful way to show someone a possible mode pattern due to the first note becoming 1 or root note. Many ways to get the results. I have noticed many students struggle with these concepts as well. Great video!😊

[@johnpannella]

Great video! All the technical stuff can get in the way of simply creating music. Your point about Jimmy Page being rough or sloppy is so true but the feel in his playing was amazing. He could play one note and there was feel all over the place. Really enjoyed this one Justin.

[@lockhartdesign]

My guitar teachers would write out the modes and hand them to me but never would explain how to actually make music with them. Great video I agree completely.

[@FrankWilliam-fc9sw]

In the late seventies I somehow convinced a young Mark O'Connor into giving me guitar lessons. He was 16 and already had several albums under his belt. Man was that humbling lol. He had taken lessons when he was younger from my previous guitar teacher Al Turray, a jazz guy. Anyway at the end of the first lesson I asked him if there were any scales I should be practicing. Mark said and I quote "scales are for beginners, practice playing music". Probably my best lesson from him involved the rhythm part for sweet Georgia brown. Mark grabbed my right hand when I was struggling to play it and said I can see you're trying to count it. You'll never get it that way, just listen to me play it again and feel it. So I did and damned if I didn't start just grooving and playing the hell outta it. Just had to stop thinking.

[@stephenstarr6388]

Could you discuss "chord scales" to distinguish from modes? For me it is knowing what are the upper and lower neighbor tones to each chord tone. and thus ... the notes are dictated ACCORDING TO YOUR EARS and not a rigid linear scale pattern. It is your ears that select the "correct note(s)".

[@TomCPlus1]

Man, I am thinking the same way that you are! (I think). I find that I am now just looking for the "next note", the interval that sounds best in context with the song structure (chord progression). I also found that I could switch very easily from major pentatonic to minor pentatonic once I realized that, when I'm at the root note, I just go down two frets (play the flat-7) or up 3 frets (play the flat-3) . . . and when I'm moving from minor to major, I play down to the 6th or up to the 2nd and then move on from there with the "right intervals" for the sound I want.

[@stephenstarr6388]

@@TomCPlus1 Yep

[@musicmann1967]

Tim Pierce seems to be very "mode friendly", but I don't think it gets in the way of his creativity at all. He'll often say something like "this is all mixolydian" (or some other mode) when describing a part he's analyzing and playing over. He seems to incorporate it without it getting in the way. I literally just thought about that while I was starting to write a compoletely different comment!! lol Cheers!

[@JustinOstrander]

Yeah what I’m saying is pretty subjective I suppose. I just think I come up with cooler more singable stuff when I’m focused on chord tones and thinking less about what scale or mode I’m in

[@musicmann1967]

@@JustinOstrander Whatever you're doing, works!! lol I'm not a reader, and I've always concentrated more on songwriting. Usually when I do guitar solos, I'm figuring out something I hear in my head, just like another part. I wish I could do what you do, and just play and respond to the music that way.

[@marcusaurealius6129]

Great video! I've heard jazz players talk about this topic, but its nice to see it applied in such a clear way. Definitely worth a subscribe!

[@mbach1187]

I love everything about this and am struggling with being able to play like you did on that 3 chord progression but have to ask. Don't I in fact have to learn patterns or positions to do what you did? It cant just be all chord shapes you played there I;m assuming? how and what did you practice to get there?

[@JustinOstrander]

It’s pretty much just arpeggios with some connecting notes. But I’m trying to weave a melody through those chords and for that to come out of my guitar. No framework of thinking about scales or modes. Check out 15:49. Connecting chord tones with notes between that sound right. I lean very heavily on my ears.

[@paulbtaylorpt]

Thank you for this, Justin. I’ve been playing for a long time and only recently began focusing on playing the changes, knitting together rhythm and lead parts. Because I tend to overthink things, I also went down the rabbit hole of scales, keys, modes etc, and was frustrated to find that I always seemed to sound uninspired and frankly, unmusical. Focusing on chord tones while soloing has started a whole new journey, but here’s the thing - even the simplest of targeted, intentional notes played with feeling sounds better than the prior box I was in. The examples you played, Justin, solidified it for me. I could hear every chord change in your lead lines, which drew me in to a musical story. Thanks for this - a real gift.

[@BadHorsie2]

Jimmy page can make some wrong stuff sound tasty. Great video, it makes a lot of sense to me and is really helpful. I like these kind of music topics. This course is going to be good. Wreck em Tech!!!😂😂😂

[@marcohermans3207]

When I started lessons 30 years ago after a while my teacher started to learn me the modes. He mapped them out on several sheets of paper with all the boxes and such. It was natural to him because he was a schooled teacher and a session guitar player here in holland. I started to learn all the shapes but I couldn't find a musical context for it. It began to frustrate me more and more that I didn't get it. I quit lessons and foundanother teacher and he learned me to improvise using the notes in the chord structures and appergios. That opened up a whole new way of playing to me. Immediately my playing became more melodic in a way that I could express my emotions more naturally. Modes are fine but for me it didn't work.

[@Tonetwisters]

What is a "mode"? Hmmm. I don't play scales, never have! Been playing 62 years. I was fortunate enough not to have ever taken lessons ... well, I did take a couple lessons to learn fingerpicking, so I guess I lied. Sorry!

[@sercastamere9853]

Neil Young. Jack White. Robbie Krieger. Josh Homme. Stop learning scales, and get weird.

[@jumpskirt]

Absolutely golden advice. I've been playing for decades, stuck in patterns. I am just NOW getting the flick on chord tones. Damn!

[@iamthereforeimustbe]

Once again bowled over. Plain speaking with a clear message, backed up with great examples. Looking forward to the guitar courses.

[@audioglenngineer]

I’m the same way, Justin - I want to feel like I’m hearing a human voice coming through the instrument: phrases, pushes and pulls against the chords, and those big, obvious turns between chords that aren’t root notes, and little inflections. Seeing you here sure reminds me of our old jams in my parent’s basement! One of my favorite memories from the 90’s. I can still hear that little blues riff pattern you used to start us off with 1-8-b7-5. Sure a fun way to cut your teeth with friends. So fun to see where you’ve gone!

[@JustinOstrander]

Those were good times and very formative for me!

[@MARBSTUDIO]

When are you going to release the tutorials, course you mentioned, cant wait to see it

[@ababkin]

Justin, really hoping to buy your solo courses soon. Ready to put hours of practice, but really want to make sure I practice the right thing (vs. bad habits). Hoping you will send me down the right path to musical improvisation. Love your style btw.

[@producerman10030]

The mode thing is just a way of teaching scale relationships to chords. It's not meant to be a way to solo. That's a whole 'nuther thing. I agree with everything you said. In one of the first sessions I did, I was 21 and the songwriter/producer (a guy who later worked with James Taylor and Chaka Kahn) said "Less is more". I'll always remember that. It's about playing something that adds to the song and makes things happen, not about playing pentatonic scales at 1000 bpm with 3-hand tapping.

[@8MinuteAxe]

Hey Justin. What's your signal chain for this video. Incredible sound. I'm blown away at how good it sounds. I'm guessing you've got an Ox and a nice 1 x 12 15w class A. Not that I went out on a limb with that guess. LOL. Anyway, I enjoyed the video. Have a great weekend. Mark

[@JustinOstrander]

Tele, Boss 63 spring pedal, Analog outfitters Sarge, Morgan 112 cab with ET65

[@jeremyversusjazz]

I don’t wanna do or hear Math when I play or listen to music either. I’ve been studying jazz lately with a phenomenal teacher, who specializes in the Barry Harris pedagogy for lack of a better word: Chris Parks-of “the things I learned from Barry Harris” channel . it’s amazing-it’s really cool. but the one thing I struggle with is contrary motion or “counterpoint.”a) it’s really hard but B) because I feel like I’m having to do math even though that’s really not what it is but it feels like that to me so I need to get over that because it is a beautiful sound. but I agree with you about the modes. I know them inside and out but I never think about them anymore- especially now that I’m working on this stuff. Chris jokes that Barry never said the word “mode” in 30 years of studying with him. of course, Barry never thought about chord, tones, or wrong notes, or any of those kind of stuff. He has his totally different set of rules, which actually makes things much more free than all the diatomic rules that I had learned for the past 30 years. 😫😊 love yr channel brother! PS totally agree with you about Jimmy page. I think his live playing was so sloppy because he was basically drunk. I think if he had been sober, maybe it would’ve been less fun to play those shows I don’t know I’m not Jimmy page. but the studio stuff is amazing because he had time to craft the stuff and play the parts with more care &precision. I’ve learned a bunch of zeppelin note for note-made multitrack recordings of them and I was blown away by how many parts are actually on a lot of the Led Zeppelin tunes things you don’t even hear, but when you dig up like actual charts of the tunes and you look and you see what’s really there and then you listen again you can hear it and it’s like oh my God. Yeah page is amazing.

[@williamburns7580]

Hell yeah...that's what I'm talking about!...Love that freestyle

[@danrourke]

Scales and modes are like roadmaps, they only take you where someone has already been

[@danpetersonmusic]

That comment ALMOST got it right. They ARE like roadmaps…they tell you where you CAN go but not where you HAVE to go. BTW literally every guitarist (and other musicians) including JO are playing modes whether they think that way or not. Playing a major sound and flatting the seventh IS mixolydian. A minor sound with the major sixth IS Dorian. Thinking modally is one way to arrive at that sound but there are others.

[@ronrottinghaus]

Appreciation for math + Love of Jimmy Page's work = Subscribe

[@chasearrington346]

Hey Justin! This is an interesting video. I really enjoyed listening to your playing examples. As you mentioned you give a sense of storytelling and can still hear the chords. However, the way you've described the modes applying to music is inaccurate. When I first learned the modes, it was in the same way you've described... I knew them as shapes instead of sounds/colors. By calling the various positions 1-7 a modal name, it misses the point. You end up playing the same scale in different spots & it all sounds the same giving you a confusing way to try to remember all the notes you could play when you want to solo.... The magic with the modes comes in when you alter the relationship of the notes with the root. Example... If you drone an Open E note & played the intervals for E major on the A string... Drone E and play on A string -> (A----7--9--11--12--14--16--18--19), It will sound like a normal popular song in a "Major/Ionian" key. However, if you were to drone the Open E note & play the intervals for E Lydian on the A string.... ... Drone E and play on A string -> (A----7--9--11--13--14--16--18--19). It will sound very different. What results? The chord progression for a major song section could be anything within your I, iim, iiim, IV, V, vim, viidim. Probably 95% of popular music lives in the major/minor key realm, but if you listen to someone like Joe Satriani and wondering how he creates the moods/feelings with his music... Modes can alter the feeling of the song from the standard major/minor realm.

[@MLaurence]

I was taught by NY jazz guys and trying to learn the application of modes set me back for years. I could even spell out all the notes in the modes but using them in a solo was something I couldn’t do. The part that they didn’t tell me was that if you know your major scale shapes all over the neck, then you also know all of the shapes for your modes. You can pull chords from any key, without any rules - you don’t have to play the 1 chord. Get Lucky is a great example, Bm, D, F#m, E. A lot of ppl would start by playing a Bm scale, but it’s actually in A major, it’s a 2 4 6 5. You don’t need to know my B Dorian all over the neck, just your A major

[@JustinOstrander]

Good point. Yeah, I would chart that out as a 2- 4 6- 5 in A. And when coming up with a melody, I’d be thinking chord tones and seeing chord shapes on the neck, not just blowing the A major scale (or any of its modes).

[@TexasJackdaw]

I totally relate. I spent years in college learning theory, scales and modes - which were necessary in the jazz program at North Texas University. But I literally feel that it took me years to kind of “forget” it. I feel that that knowledge is necessary as it subliminally provides context within a chord sequence. But as I grew older - to me, it’s all about the song. When playing a solo I try to imagine performing a sax solo. Something memorable. Something that “sings”. Neal Schon of Journey is a brilliant mix of melody and shred. Serve the song first. Engage the listener - then if there is room, show some flash. I dunno. I DO know I loved this video and all your content. Cheers and thanks! 🙏

[@ViaMichaelRocks]

I also went to North Texas and even though my whole day was consumed with music, modes were about as useful as a slide ruler. Lou Marini once told me the secret to great and endless solos were in modes. They obviously served him well.

[@JustinOstrander]

@@ViaMichaelRocksDoes anyone else cringe at the idea of endless solos? 😂

[@1man1guitarletsgo]

Very good! Chord tones are where it's at. Modal playing has its place, but getting hung up on any one thing holds people back.

[@jimmyc5498]

I get what you’re saying and many agree. Try this, bpm 95. Play low E on the down beat( stay diatonic G major key) and play some G double stop eighth note country Lines for 2 measures, E note again, C double stops 2 more measures. Then play an open E minor chord. You just played G Ionian and C Lydian fingerings over E Aeolian. It didn’t have those modal sounds because the bass notes were missing but you were able to play some different things over E minor. You can swap any of the 7 modes as you get comfortable. I don’t use modes with their own bass notes. But melodic playing is definitely more fluid. Check it out. Enjoy your channel!

[@bluebirdamplification3026]

Absolutely agree with your way here Justin. Love your tone and playing mate👍🙂

[@krausewitz6786]

This is going to be sort of self-fulfilling/self-justifying, but as a Deadhead Jerry Garcia really taught me how to play guitar. He doesn't sit in a single scale (like most rock players, including Jimmy Page, most of the time), and he doesn't jump scales and modes constantly, either. He just plays the changes. Starting from chord tones, and gently working out from there. It's a great mental basis from which one can explore all manner of non rock/blues-based music.

[@InGratitudeIam]

"It's a great way to do math while playing..." LOVE IT! That's how I felt. I really wanted to nerd out on Joe Pass but, alas, I could not. :) (And I was good at college math.) I stumbled upon what you're saying when I figured out Don Felder's lead in "Take it Easy." It's all in the chords. This video is really helpful. Thanks!

[@Kevinschart]

"Gotta show people that I've been practicing" 😂😂😂 Modes are fundamental music theory so people should spend some time just to get familiar with them. For a guitarist, messing around with the modes can help you better understand the major scale, and how to navigate around the fretboard. Depending on the genre, knowledge of at least ionian, aeolian, and mixolydian modes will get you plenty of mileage. Maybe a little Dorian to "jazz up" your sound (see Carlos Santana). Also modes show you how you can manipulate the major scales in a creative way to experiment with different intervals and sounds (just like you did in your solo. I think guitarists are taught everything backwards. Modes are not just shapes of the major scales. That's simply a coincidence. Also learning the modes as independent one octave scales gets you out of the positional trap. All this stuff is taste. Learn all the modes, put them in your back pocket, but don't spend too much time on them. Unless that's just your thing . Those tasty chord tone licks definitely sound "mode-y" to me.

[@Michael_Butler]

Well said. I can't wait to learn more. Please keep me videos about this topic coming. And Happy Thanksgiving!

[@UURevival]

You make me feel better about making music. I've only been playing the guitar for three years and I found the scales uninspiring and hard to stick with because it didn't feel expressive or musical but still require a load of mental energy. And along the lines of what you were saying I had a vocal teacher talking about how to arrange a song to show off ones voice. I just want to make music that expresses emotions, feeling, love... that's how I want my validation. I identify with Harlan Howard- "Three chords and the truth." Which is good cause I don't know many more chords than that. lol :oD

[@SteveJones379]

GREAT discussion! 🤘Focus on music with passion, not technical math. Guitar music moves me when it's human and imperfect. Thank you☮ new subscriber after watching!

[@TimsGuitarWorldwithTimFeskorn]

Triads and Triad pairs have been helpful to me so far. Although It's been frustrating too. Great content Justin.

[@scottruffner7744]

That's so true! Some of my favorite players aren't technical at all, in a way!!! They play beautiful melodic melodies! Mike Campbell, Keith Richards, David Gilmour, Eric Clapton, and so many more. It comes from your heart and soul. When I'm playing live or in the studio, I try to just get out of the way and let the magic happen. That works the best for me. Thank you so much for everything you do on your channel. I really love it here!!!

[@xxcelr8rs]

Bad notes suck. Penta gets boring. Guthrie Trap is the guy I learned the most from. Caged, Arpeffios, , Dom 7 stuff. Just the 9th opened up my melodies. I just ordered a scale book with tabs. I'm not reading birds on wires. I gig every weekend. Had at least one show a month for 4 decades. Still getting better.

[@spillemusicstudios8515]

I would agree with you, though I think jazz musicians definitely utilize modes more.

[@MrBowlinbrian63]

Thank you Justin. I agree 100% and wish I would’ve had a teacher like you when I was younger. I wasted a lot of time.

[@chrisjelley6899]

Outstanding. Been soo flailing around with modes/scales; then when I say f it, find something cool. THANK YOU!!

[@kmacmckee2931]

Always enjoy your point of view, playing and tips. The diplomacy you use is also masterful. Well done!

[@MOAB-UT]

I do want to get better at this and break out of the boxes- just don't have any idea how. I am good at boxes. I like scales...but I know they are limited. I am trying to learn some triads now. I have the E Major triad down- all CAGED positions- is that helpful? Not sure what to do with it- pick through I suppose on a chord change? What you played, when you said you could still hear the chords- it's ALL about the CHORDS, reminded me a lot of this: kzbin.info/www/bejne/fqeUknx-rNKXj7Msi=I-HQuXumt-4hvP20&t=1

[@frankstephenson1746]

First off, this is a great video. Great playing, great human advice. Every time I’ve tried to go beyond the major scale it doesn’t feel or sound right. The guy who showed me music theory (before internet) quickly showed me the major scale, then the 1,3,5, to make the triads and said, “that’s all you really need to know”