How Much Loss Does Messi & Paoloni Coax Really Have??

Comparing Messi & Paoloni Coax with "Regular" Coax. Who will win?
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[@francescastangoni]

A few days ago I found a very interesting and technical answer from Messi & Paoloni directly. After a short time, it suddenly disappeared. Why I can't find it again? tks for your sincere reply

[@MessiPaoloniSRLAncona]

To all readers: We REPOST our BLANKED post Invoking our RIGHT to REPLY. Please read our measurement comments about this video carefully. Hi Mike, I congratulate you on the initiative to try practically what professional technicians usually do with calibrated Network Analyzers. Before making any statements, especially if they are public, we must ask ourselves why significant discrepancies exist concerning the values measured, especially on a leading cable on the international scene. It emerges from your analysis that there are deviations from the values ​​reported on our MessiCalc for two cables Ultraflex 7 Sahara and in particular huge ones for the Hyperflex 10 Sahara FT8. Hyperflex 10 Sahara FT8 Identification batch of the product printed in the sheath 001211117001. The available Test report shows how attenuation data is even better than that stated in the catalog or MessiCalc. (same thing for Ultraflex 7 Sahara) Well, the Hyperflex 10 Series, (together with the Ultraflex 7), are our best sellers in Europe (and beyond) and one of the most praised cables around the globe. Do you think that if it had been so scarce, the European Hams would have continued to buy it, preferring it to similar products? Perhaps European radio amateurs and competitors are naïve and don't test products on the market? Do you remember that after watching the video of the field day I was complaining because it was clearly visible that the cables were laid on the ground in transit areas, therefore subject to accidental damage due to crushing by heavy vehicles? (several pickup trucks around). Do you remember Mike that you confirmed to me in our recorded video calls that a mutual friend, (Bob) repeatedly passed with his Pickup truck over the cables donated by M&P for the field day? (Field day video) kzbin.info/www/bejne/rHfKd5uuosiHqbs Do you remember that I told you that passing with a vehicle of about 2500 Kg (5500 pounds) over a cable with PVC sheath and expanded Polyethylene dielectric (PEE), irreparably deteriorates the original qualities of the product? Well, surely the Hyperflex 10 Sahara FT8 you tested is one of those cables that have undergone this indelicate compression treatment. Even if the cable's jacket might look perfect from the outside, a big weight over the cable might ovalize the dielectric altering impedance and general performance. If it had had a polyethylene sheath like the LMR 400 for example, (or like our Extraflex Bury 10 that we made specifically for the American market), this would not have happened due to the strength of the sheath at the expense of overall flexibility. On a cable like the RG 213/U with solid PE dielectric, the problem does not exist: with its 66% velocity Factor, and low profile screening efficiency,(only 55 dB), people trade in the modest performances of an 80 year ago design, for resistance to torture tests. In this case, our RG213 Plus, with its additional copper foil, improves the screening efficiency dramatically, (110dB), and the attenuations too, remaining a cable that can be stepped on or crushed accidentally without significant consequences. (beware of rocks anyway...) Again with cables with Polyethylene sheath such as M&P-Airborne 10, LMR400 or M&P-Extraflexbury 7, M&P-Extraflex bury 10, and M&P-Extraflexbury 13 this problem does not exist, but when high performances and great flexibility are desired, the cable must have a PVC sheath and PEE dielectric.... and should be treated with more awareness. The Ultraflexible cables with PVC Jacket have been designed for fixed installations, matched with a rotor-operated antenna, otherwise if placed in a vehicle transit area, if crushed, they lead to a rapid decline in performance. No one would dream of driving a pickup truck over an antenna or amplifier hoping that nothing bad could happen.... It follows that for a fair comparison, the test must be redone with an intact cable, (like that in the bobbin of LMR 400 you raised up), comparing pears to pears and apples to apples, comparing your results with those previously detected in our laboratory, which is always in line with minimum acceptable tolerance. Every manufacturer or specialist knows that a cable with compact polyethylene, such as RG 213, being non-expanded is more stable, (precisely because it is not expanded). It is also known that expanded polyethylene cables perform much better, but have higher tolerances. (everyone) I'm really curious to see how other expanded polyethylene cables can also vary ... Only in this way will it be possible to make an impeccable comparison with Rg213/U against M&P-Rg 213 Plus LMR400 UF against Extraflex bury 10. LMR 400 against Airborne 10 LMR 240 against Extraflex bury 7 (we might even test Hyperflex 5 , which is smaller and defends itself very well against the bigger RG8X). We are ready to send you 5 cables as they leave the factory, therefore without mechanical alterations, in exchange for receiving the same competing models shipped at our expense after your tests. (it is a fair exchange). We shall be pleased to test them according to our certified lab and send them to an independent accredited lab before publishing the results. After all this, we'll see if we need to modify the MessiCalc or if anyone else needs to review his one. (or just to modify their catalogs for those with neither a simulator nor an entire factory to show). Thanks for your attention, American friends

[@kevinmatthews2620]

nice tests there Mike, my point i have to make tho is i have changed from Cabinex rg213 and std pl59s to ultraflex 10 and evolution compression plugs from M&P, and i can say hand on heart i am getting roughly 2 S points better on rx and hence tx from 80m through to 6m, i am very pleased, i can now work all parts of the globe from the UK even down to fiji/zl/vk & JAs easier/better since the switch, wish i had done it years ago tbh :) :)

[@MessiPaoloniSRLAncona]

Thanks for your real-life testimony of how you perceive our products, Kevin

[@houseofhamradio]

Outstanding Mike! I don't know what more you could have done outside of lab grade test equipment (AKA $$$$). I think this helps hams make informed decisions. Keep it up and look forward to next one.

[@Dusty_Ham]

Thanks Mike, this is a great video with a lot of work going into it. Great job! Definitely informative.

[@hamradiotube]

Glad it was helpful!

[@christophersmith1155]

very good info. I cant wait to see the airborn 10 VS LMR-400 test.

[@hamradiotube]

You and me both!

[@christophersmith1155]

please include wattage ratings if possible. you know we run alot of power on 11 meters.

[@DonzLockz]

Great video Mike, I'd like to see more practical tests like this. Very helpful for everyone.👍👍👍

[@Bass-guitarist]

You deserve a subscribe purely for all the work you put in!

[@DXCommanderHQ]

I really liked that data Mike. You do good analysis. First class.

[@deanheckman9323]

Nice job Mike! Sorry you had some dufus disin' you! Keep it up, you are doing a great job. Love your videos.

[@hamradiotube]

Thanks Dean. Not sure who the dufus is though. I'm sure there is one, prob many, but their comments just get brushed aside. Gotta have thick skin to put yourself in the public eye.

[@TheHamNinja]

Well done dude. Lots of good data and I’m glad you focused on performance as well as what the manufacturers are telling us. Really good data points here. The only thing I would add is the other factor to this, which is price. I have no idea what the price difference is, but it would be easy for me to look up. Thanks and 73.

[@hamradiotube]

Thanks Christian. M&P really isn't all that expensive either.

[@TheHamNinja]

@@hamradiotube You need a fun dollar per db graph. :) Or ($$ / db) * (fun-factor (squared)) :)

[@conorturton]

Nice video, thanks for putting in the effort to do this. Ultimately these are difference you will not notice without having to do tests like this so don't go swapping out your coax. Whilst the losses may be fractionally worse on the Ultraflex it more than compensates for it with it's lighter weight, higher usability, higher flexibility with the ability to route it and bend it much easier than the RG213.

[@hamradiotube]

Thanks Conor. This wasn't meant to be a video about the minimal differences between the cables. It was more about what is advertised vs. what is realized by the end user. Us. I have always stated (though not ever enough) this channel is about learning, failing, experimenting, and sharing my results with the world so we can all hopefully learn from each other. But no, don't go swapping out your coax for a couple more watts. I'd say it's a hell of an accomplishment to get the results we did out of the Ultraflex 7 though. That is the reason it has become my main coax for portable. I also use it for HF at home.

[@joemanion7376]

Love this video!

[@hamradiotube]

Thank you!!

[@k3dhj]

Awesome video. Youda MAN!

[@bassangler73]

Very cool vid.....nice info to know especially for us 2 meter repeater junkies :) I will definitely be upgrading my RG8X especially for my Home VHF radio

[@hamradiotube]

In short runs it's fine, but once you start getting any real length, it just goes down hill really quick.

[@bassangler73]

@@hamradiotube true, I only have 25' of run

[@ae1tpa92gwtom2]

Awsome Mike !!

[@hamradiotube]

Thank you

[@timg5tm941]

Mike I really appreciate the time you’ve put into this and the energy of your presentation. The efficiency figures, for clarification, are interesting. Any efficiency above 80% means a loss of around a dB or less. In the real world, this doesn’t amount to a hill of beans. Coax run lengths are also a major factor when assessing a coax’s suitability for a particular use-case. Even up on 2 metres, a 15 foot (5m) run of rg58 amounts to little loss. I guess the QUALITY of the coax in terms of shielding, core used and the resultant potential reduction in noise levels means that, for home use, the M&P standard of coax is a good choice. For portable, with zero noise levels, often cheaper (if short runs) are totally fine up to 145 MHz. Thank you for posting Mike, 73.

[@stellarpod]

Good stuff! Would love to have seen M&P's Airborne 5 coax included in this shootout. Any chance you've looked at it comparatively? As always, thanks much for sharing. Steve

[@W8VHS]

Good and informative video. Thank you Sir. 73

[@w7roitimothybath368]

Awesome job mike!

[@hamradiotube]

Thanks!

[@user-nc2mj2cr6v]

I love this type of video

[@slappomatthew]

I would like to see physical length measured. Electrical calculation is fun but adds variables. Tape measure doesn’t lie

[@derricktomlinson2241]

Btw great video!!

[@hamradiotube]

Thanks!

[@ynot6473]

the best tabulated comparison i've seen. and backs up my thoughts on RG8X being fine up to 40 metres, but RG213 for 20 metres to 10 metres, (my back yard is only 27 metres long).

[@nhojcam]

i realize you are a M&P fan. i agree that it is good cable. question...have you done a comparison between DX Engineering's LMR-400Max with M&P? i went with the DXE cable for my base HF rig to a CHA 8010 (QRP of 100 watts) and get favorable sig strength / clarity reports across the pond into germany and the UK. DXE is making some astonishing claims about how low the dB attenuation is on the LMR-400Max. at face value based upon DXE's self-reported numbers, it would appear that it blows up M&P's best cable. thank you for your videos! new sub and a new extra btw. 73, KQ4NNH.

[@chunkylover54]

so which one should i buy for a vhf station

[@DXCommanderHQ]

7:50 Agreed. Great for 7mm diameter.

[@W9HJBill]

I'm real (or is that reel?) interested in how the LMR-400, and more specifically 400 Ultraflex test comes out compared to the 2 Messi & Paoloni cables. I used DX Engineering 400Max (which is about the same as LRM-400UF) for almost everything ... HF/UHF/VHF.

[@hamradiotube]

I've got everything but the Airborne 10 to do the tests. Just got some LMR400UF and LMR240. I've been sitting on LMR400 for a while now as well. Let the battle begin!

[@kb9jqu]

@@hamradiotube that will be interesting! I'm not ready to replace my less than 1 year old 500 feet of RG-213 for HF based on these tests. However it's great to see the real world results for when it's time to replace coax.

[@WU3Shamradio]

I just got a 32 m run of ultra flex 7 sahara, for the buddihex, will be putting it to the test this weekend but love the feel of it and the high quality feel of the evo pl-259’s. After feeling the m&p coax and connectors, it’s making me wish I had tried them sooner, but then again ham radio is a hobby of always learning something. I’m thinking about upgrading my jumpers in the shack to M&P ultra flex 7 Sahara or hyper flex10 Sahara or do you have another suggestion just definitely want it to be able to handle 1500w up to 6m…

[@hamradiotube]

Awesome! Congrats on the new coax. I tried making jumpers out of the Hyperflex 10 but it’s just to darn big in my opinion. It’s hard to make some of the bends necessary behind all your gear. I’m using all Ultraflex 7 for my jumpers.

[@marcclarke01]

But you did not measure power at the output of the 7300 for each frequency used, correct? So we don't actually know how much power the transmitter was actually putting out and we don't know whether that actual power out varied with frequency. Do we?

[@hamradiotube]

Didn’t I? Boy I thought I explained this well enough so as to not get this type of comment. Maybe you should watch again. There’s literally a column on the spreadsheet called “Control” and in this video I tell you how I got that.

[@Maine307]

soo, for us new guys, is there a price comparrison as well???

[@peterdekeles.]

Thanks, Made a confusing subject easy to understand

[@Martinroadsguy]

How did you comment 7 days ago on a video that says it was posted 11 minutes ago?

[@hamradiotube]

He came from the past. Or he's a Patron. Patrons get early access.

[@hamradiotube]

Glad it helped!

[@peterdekeles.]

Proud to be a patreon

[@DK5ONV]

"If no one can really get you high, just call Mikey the Cable Guy" 😂😂😂💯👍🙋‍♂

[@hamradiotube]

Hell no, I ain't sharing!

[@DK5ONV]

@@hamradiotube You such a good Guy, Mikey. And thx for all you do for HAM Radio. I mean that sincerely. Keep up your fantastic Work & have a great Weekend. 73 de YFUG from Southwest Germany 💯👍🙋‍♂

[@shanerorko8076]

I'm looking at building my own slim jim J-pole antennas to sell, so I want to provide a perfect antenna for portable applications. The biggest issue is the coax, as I don't want to terminate it at the antenna base. I want it to be able to be lifted into trees, so I need about 10m of coax for guys running fibreglass poles etc. It starts to get complicated as I want light coax, but I don't wish to have much loss. I'm a believer in "many hands make light work" what I mean by this phrase is if you can gain a DB in performance with coax, then 1.5db in connector choice and .5db in tuning/using chokes, well, now you have doubled your output. This is why I'm leaning towards Hyperflex 5 with an N-connector for my roll-up J-poles, they will have choke beads at the base and maybe a tuning stub and a dipole spade terminal at the tip to add length if needed. I may even add tap points on the matching section. The idea is to have a roll-up antenna that can be deployed in a tree with a throw rope that can extend an HT's coverage substantially. Thanks, VK1NME

[@hamradiotube]

Boy, wouldn't it be great if we had both light weight and low loss? Just food for thought, but when I made my roll up J-Pole I terminated it with an SO-239. That way I could use whatever coax I wanted depending on the situation. Going up a fiberglass mast though, you're going to weigh it down with any type of coax. Either Hyperflex 5 or Ultraflex 7 from Messi & Paoloni would be great as well as LMR 240. Those are all in the RG8X ish sizing. I've never seen a connector that has gain so I'd be curious what you are thinking for that as well as a choke. Neither of those are going to give you gain. Less losses maybe, but not gain. The best thing a slim Jim has going for it to my understanding is the ability to get it up high. Height is might as they say. I don't think they have any more gain than a dipole (~2.4dBi). I don't think you'd really notice any performance advantage with an N connector either. Maybe also look at BNC? Lighter weight and they are technically better than the standard PL-259. You really start to notice a difference at the really high frequencies, but your HT's aren't going up that high. Just some thoughts. I'll be curious to see what you come up with. Best of luck for sure though! I'm in a similar boat as you. I'm about to start building my battery boxes for sale (finally)! It's a scary endeavor but I'm excited to get started.

[@shanerorko8076]

@@hamradiotube I meant gain as in a gain over the loss most people except. So yes no gain but getting rid of loss.

[@kd5you1]

I've used a N9TAX roll up J pole antenna on a 12m Spiderbeam mast along with 50 feet of ABR Industries ABR-240 and 100 feet of Messi & Paoloni Ultraflex 13 connected together, and on simplex I was heard clearly over most of the county I live in. I was transmitting 50 watts, so I'm sure the antenna wasn't seeing much more than half of that amount. From what I have read over the years, I typically see connectors or adapters dropping the signal about .5 dB, so there's not much to recover by changing connector types or brands. I have 35 feet of ABR-240, the N9TAX antenna and 50 feet of paracord in my packpack go kit for the same reason... to throw the paracord up into a tree. The issue is that those roll up J poles aren't really designed to hold the weight of a long length of coax, so I would attach the paracord in a way that anchors the top of the antenna and the top of the coax, and eliminate strain on the antenna itself. 73 KD5YOU

[@chrisg7veo495]

could you compare efficiency of different coax connectors brands of pl259s , n type etc

[@hamradiotube]

I don't really have a way to test that.

[@gruvyalan]

Thanks for this vid! I'm looking forward to the Airborne 10 vs. LMR 400 testing. Thanks, Mike! 73 de AK4FY

[@hamradiotube]

You and me both!

[@hkmp5s]

@@hamradiotube A coax Thunderdome.

[@digitalanaloguehamradio]

I love this guy Mike. He said he would deliver it. By the way I’m in the UK 😎😅

[@hamradiotube]

Stefano is going to deliver your coax??

[@kenluning909]

Nice detailed video on those comparisons. Thanks for the info. 73 W5KAL

[@n5yiz]

👍

[@DominicMazoch]

The coax in Chameleon Antennae is made by ABR

[@hamradiotube]

Yes it is.

[@DominicMazoch]

440 and up. Alaska pipeline sized coax needed.

[@hamradiotube]

Right?!

[@darrellh3769]

Mike how about getting ahold of Some Davis Bury-Flex (Can be used for rotator loop) or some ABR American made and do a actual test to see if the M&P does actually perform better? Do your family, friends and fellow hams a favor and buy AMERICAN!

[@DominicMazoch]

I do ABR. Not just USA. Not just Texas. H-Town company! YES! But EU Italy better than China, if there was no ABR.

[@mewrongway]

You will never hear that little difference. I asked 15 different DXCC award winners what coax they used, none used Messi!

[@waltbury]

Mike; same old story Data from the sales group vs number for a engineering group. Times Microwave could have more tech people checking number after installation. Just saying

[@hamradiotube]

I'm curious how they do the measuring. I'm not a very smart guy but I would like to think my way was as scientific as it could be given my "test equipment". One thing I've learned from being in sales my whole life is the numbers don't lie.

[@ke8nleen72fh9]

Way to lay out the facts

[@hamradiotube]

Thanks

[@scotreece5795]

Price difference

[@hamradiotube]

yes

[@ynot6473]

loads!

[@glenmartin2437]

Thank you. I was doing the calculations for my 2m transmission line. I will be making some changes. N0QFT

[@dougdunlap5889]

GOOD INFO BUT SORRY MAKES MY HEAD HURT

[@hamradiotube]

try doing the tests!

[@DominicMazoch]

ABR is still my go to H-Town made it cable.

[@hamradiotube]

I just did a video from their shop. Great people and great coax. I just got some LMR-240 and LMR-400UF I'm going to be reviewing soon.

[@kgthegman]

Like number 69, nice.

[@Steven-re7xt]

Got gifted 1000 feet spool rgu 58-a it's the go to spool. tks for info on other types de kv4li 73

[@hamradiotube]

Thats a good gift