Kabane The Christian vs Matt Dillahunty (1) - The Atheist Experience

/ sciencereason ... Kabane The Christian vs Matt Dillahunty On The Historicity Of The Gospels And The Authorship Of Matthew (Part 1/4) - The Atheist Experience #606 with Matt Dillahunty and Don Baker.
"Who Wrote The Gospels? - The Atheist Experience #603":
• • Video
Tommy's video "A Reply to the A.E. on Matthew":
• • A Reply to the Atheist...
"Kabane The Christian vs Matt Dillahunty (Aftermath) - The Atheist Experience #607":
• • Video
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[@Seraphim-Hamilton]

It's amazing to me in hindsight how many views this got. I just want to say a few things here (by the way, this is the caller): 1. I cringe at myself at 16 years old. I don't think I've listened to this debate in nine years because of how hard I cringe. I wish I hadn't used the tone I did, spoke so fast (one of the commenters was right- I do have a policy debate background but was one of the slower speakers, and I honestly wasn't trying to use it as a trick), or interrupted as much as I did. Our conversation was also very wide-ranging, more than was useful, I think. 2. I will defend myself at one point: I never said anything in this call that I knew was false. Everything I said, I honestly believed. 3. What I said about the Hadith was obviously silly, as was what I said about alien abductions. I was thinking of the Betty and Barney Hill case, though even there strange phenomena preceded hypnosis. So yes, I was certainly wrong. 4. I have locked down comments on the original video- there just was too much spam coming in. If you've ever run a large-ish channel, you know how if you get over a hundred comments, new comments are usually just rehashing the same stuff that old commenters already said. That's true whether it's Christians or atheists commenting. 5. I've thought about calling back just to have a retrospective. What do you guys think? Is anyone interested in that?

[@Extra_050]

Hello there! For some reason you just popped into my head recently and so I just typed up your screen name (or former screen name) and here we are. I should note that I discovered your existence many moons ago, when a clip of one of your videos appeared under VenomFangX's wiki on Encyclopædia Dramatica, wherein you revealed that said antagonist is (or was, then) a Geocentrist who thought the sun orbited the earth as well as a Creationist who thought that dinosaurs were aboard Noah's Ark. I saw this debate sometime afterwards. All things considered- perhaps particularly BECAUSE you were so young- I don't think you did too badly here. You just lacked the necessary polish, as we all did in our teens. If you want to ring them again (which for all I know you may have done; even this comment is nearly a year old) then by all means do so. I'm sure even these people with whom you were debating will have changed much since you spoke to them and so their style is probably different as well. Indeed, the chances are they have long forgotten about it. In the meantime, from what I've seen, your newer videos are still quite interesting. Keep up the good work!

[@leovere]

It would be great if call again

[@RedBlueWhite7]

Call in please

[@dfaulk95]

Do it

[@Alexander_Isen]

Pleeeeeeease call back in

[@JeffersonDinedAlone]

To the caller; the word is pleading, not pledding.

[@dawnbreaker2912]

Glad I'm not the only one who heard that. Ugh.

[@HorrorMovieReviewGuy]

pleding, just want to punch him, whats his channel anyone direct me to that?

[@BaronVonQuiply]

Marcel Schuller Will 1200 baud work?

[@BaronVonQuiply]

Marcel Schuller Well Moses said he talked to a burning bush, and cannabis _is_ a bush for burning after all..

[@BaronVonQuiply]

The one thing about divine communication though, it seems to have a great deal of trouble working through Haldol.

[@apophis7760]

the argument that "you can't refute what I'm saying the moment I'm saying it, it must be true." is bullshit.

[@VoluntraryismNottheState]

He can't refute that Thor, Mercury, or Poseidon aren't real either, so they must all be real, I guess. LOL!

[@ZMol7ed]

The best joke was "the hadith is dismissed by Muslim scholars" . . This Kabane guy has no clue

[@ToHoldNothing]

It's apparently disagreed upon authority of particular hadith between Shia and Sunni, though apparently their legitimacy in the general sense is agreed upon (by lineage, not unlike Catholics claiming unbroken descent from Peter), though there are also Quran only Muslims, probably in smaller numbers

[@behindenemylines3149]

Yeah. Well we are acutally finding out Mo was invented and so was his religion. Also, Mo didn't perform miracles. But, out of 100,000s of Hadith few are Sahih.

[@davydtaylor4151]

And the award for the most annoying voice goes to.........

[@davids11131113]

The pumpkin pie haircutted punk Kabane gets the award easily.....and just think by now he's in college and his classmates are finding these videos for much entertainment and mockery.

[@davydtaylor4151]

davids11131113 lol let's hope he gets all that is coming to him

[@Seraphim-Hamilton]

hi

[@davids11131113]

'Muslim schollars dismiss the Hadith'.....that would be like saying christian scholars dismiss the New Testament.

[@ToHoldNothing]

The hadith are debated to a degree and there are Quran only Muslims, though I'm not sure about their numbers. And I can't easily find the sources in regards to miracles I saw in an animated film "Muhammad the Last Prophet", and related films, like Before the Light. It's entirely possible that those miracles, like termites eating away at a boycott by the Quraysh against Muslims except for the words, "In the name of God" is from the hadith rather than the Quran. And it's entirely possible the only miracle Muslims really focus on is the Quran itself, because of alleged uniqueness. That way, they can at least focus on that rather than alleged scientific predictions in the same vein as Bible thumpers who try to quote mine the Bible for scientific sounding verses.

[@dawud4396]

Then you are an idiot who don't know anything in Islam Hadith is not Quran it can be dismissed or weaken its narration.

[@davids11131113]

@@dawud4396 oh sure just like a lot of Christians dismiss the old testament when all the problems are pointed out... ‘oh well that’s just Old Testament, now we’re onto the New’.... just very dishonest but that’s what religious folks have to do.

[@dawud4396]

@@davids11131113 I am talking to a wall or something a Hadith are in 3parts Sahih(صحيح) which is the most authintic, Hassan(حسن) which is trusted, Daif(ضعيف) which is weak so not all Hadiths are accepted but you can never say this to Quran all things in Quran are trusted in the Quran and the Christians belive in the Old Testament but the Covenant wasn't for the Christians it was for the Jews. I guess Atheist like to talk without understanding.

[@alexandersalmas21]

There are absolutely ZERO alien abduction claims that don't involve hypnotic suggestion? How could he possibly say that? Give me a break.

[@shanewilson7994]

+Alexander Salmas I love that claim too. I also love him saying there are no miracles in the Koran when Mohammad splits the moon in two with his finger, and he flies up to Heaven on a winged horse, both of those are rather miraculous claims to me.

[@garystevens5015]

Also, 'Muslim scholars dismiss the Hadiths'...absurd nonsense. We also have contemporary evidence that Tacitus A) existed B) was writing history - we have letters directly from Pliny the Younger to Tacitus, which indicate a sharing of historical information from 1 to the other for the specific purpose of assisting with his writing.

[@stevenkay4104]

Dan Akroyd claims he saw aliens/alien conspirators (the men in black). He wasn’t hypnotized. He was on TV when he stated it

[@practician5730]

@@shanewilson7994 That was in the hadith, not quran

[@practician5730]

@@garystevens5015 it is very true that muslims scholars will dismiss, the quran when it is convenient to, such as saying Aisha was 19 rather than 9

[@NWAWskeptic]

I give A LOT of credit to Matt for enduring Tommy, his arrogant, smug, condescending tone makes me instantly dislike him with a passion!

[@Seraphim-Hamilton]

He definitely was cringeworthy here

[@kylexinye1990]

Kabane RIP Kabane ;) Jk man, you nailed it here.

[@spawncampe]

I would've hung up asap

[@BaronVonQuiply]

I've begun writing the Gospels of Elvis Presley. Granted, he died before I was born but I'm far closer to the events in question that Josephus or Tacitus, the favorite historians of the church, so whatever I write should be considered an eyewitness account.

[@Goettel]

Baron von Quiply Make sure you get Fried Chicken 1:01 and the Gospel of Amphetamines 6:06 to 6:66 right, or there'll be Hell to pay!

[@verticalhorizon4633]

+Baron von Quiply Uh-huh-huh.

[@BaronVonQuiply]

Thank you, thank you very much. *tips rhinestones*

[@BluePiggy]

I love the graphic in the background of this video. Hail, Flying Spaghetti Monster! Please reach out and touch me with your noodly appendage!

[@ryleighs9575]

I feel it!

[@BrokeMyCrayon]

There are no miracles in the qu'ran? How about splitting the moon half.

[@BrokeMyCrayon]

I'm not claiming that it happened. Did you watch the video?

[@traypaul4584]

+Broke My Crayon He clearly must not have, I understood exactly what you were getting at

[@psychicandice]

Also an illiterate guy wrote down the entire Quran by divine command

[@vladtepes9614]

Why does Kabane claim that there are no miracles in the Qu'ran? It says that Muhammad split the moon in two.

[@庫倫亞利克]

He's either ignorant, or lying, probably both.

[@HeavensMystery]

Because it was a LIE proven by the fact that the splitting of the moon was told to have marked the begging of the end as described by Muhammad yet the end never came, so either Muhammad was lying about having split the moon at that time, which would make him an untrustworthy source or he was a false prophet like the many that have come since and the splitting of the moon cannot be trusted to have happen since his prophethood was never true to begin with.

[@brendarua01]

The caller probably has a debate background. They learn to speak so fast in order to pack as many points as possible in. But he is also playing games of sophistry in twisting Matt's words and then trying to get Matt to admit to things under the pressure of talking so fast. That is not a method aimed to get at truth but only to confuse and count coup. I applaud Matt in denying the gambit.

[@juliarhodes1735]

He was one of the top debaters in my high school's debate club, so I can confirm that, good job.

[@joelrodriguez1232]

Kabane was only 13 years old and he totally dominated Matt.

[@AxelLaw]

Kabane totally failed. He has a slimy slight of hand and Matt didn't fall for it.

[@joelrodriguez1232]

a 13 year-old boy obliterated Matt Dila hunty!

[@AxelLaw]

Joel Rodriguez a claim without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

[@HowardCanaway]

Mohamad riding to heaven on a winged horse.

[@karabamabo7030]

Hadith

[@kait2972]

the most pretentious way of framing the "it's true because the Bible says so" argument I've seen so far

[@bobbymccarthy7971]

There's nothing more adorable than a teenager armed with a thimbleful of knowledge.

[@kylexinye1990]

Bobby McCarthy How? Matt was wrecked here.

[@steveyuhas9278]

It's funny cuz he can't even pronounce the words correctly. It's clear he has just read all the apologists arguments and never actually engaged fully with the opposition. Matt destroyed this kid I almost feel bad lol. The poor guy did all this research and is completely missing the fact that even if all this is true, you can't confirm any miracle claims via text.

[@steveyuhas9278]

Not to mention he is clearly shifting the burden of proof for his preposterous position. I think Matt took it easy on him to prove a point, that he is wrong even if he grants the shifting of the burden.

[@sumo1203]

@@kylexinye1990 the kids argument asserted historical methods were enough to confirm/support supernatural claims, which is flat out absurd. He also made completely false claims, like alien abductions only coming from a state of hypnosis. He did enough to destroy himself with out any feedback from Matt.

[@markfullbrighton5070]

@@kylexinye1990 No, he actually wasn't. I don't think this kid realizes how badly he embarrassed himself in this video. All he did was merely lay on a bunch of unsubstantiated claims that lack any evidence. So, with all due respect, the only "wrecking" that took place here was this kid destroying himself.

[@puckerings]

Tommy doesn't even know how to pronounce special pleading, much less understand what it actually means.

[@BaronVonQuiply]

puckerings Oh.. I thought he was bragging about his new special pleating.

[@robzrob]

Amazing how much effort people will put into twisting things to fit some old storybook.

[@DrMichaelWolf]

We do the same thing everyday when we choose to cook & eat our food, which is often done by twisting things, like the kneading of dough (bread), derived from a storybook of (recipes) equally as old. Why preach/practice one and not the other? Because the bible doesn't taste good to the palette of a sinner. Sinner's love sin like pigs love mud.

[@the_regular_dinosaurus_rex]

jared fargo we don't twist what is in a book of recipies. we use it exactly the way it is written. so a book of recipies can be taken literally. we don't have to twist sugar into salt and wheat into pork to make the recipe work. additionally we can go and meet jamie oliver to confirm that the author of the book of recipies is a real person. so everything about your analogy fails.

[@robzrob]

Amalganman Said it better than I could :)

[@zool201975]

yup you should see how far it goes in creationism. there their main dogma is this.. If anything that makes scientific results (aka wel repeatable proof) but does not fit in the exact wording of the holy scripture it must be wrong.. Aka they do not believe in gravity since its never stated in the bible. they also believe in the firmament.. if you don't know what that is google it and have a laugh.

[@darkenergy8318]

robzrob A lot of efforts but it all sum to 0 at the end .

[@Nick6Michael]

I made it a hobby to look for Atheist vs Christians... *takes sip of coffee*

[@barnabyaprobert5159]

+Nick6Michael Ever thought for turn pro?

[@pcgamingmasterrace9649]

He's met and interviewed every single alien abductee in the world in history? Incredible lies.

[@perkeyser2032]

Looking at christians.....sometimes they do look very....untrustworthy. When I read your post, I immidiately thought of the Dover trial, where the christians where so completely dishonest. It was depressing. On so many levels.

[@davids11131113]

'The bible is true, because Jesus was not a hypnotist' ... this is the best christianity has today.

[@Weaseldog2001]

The Qu'ran is considered to be a miracle in and of itself. It's believed that it was written in Heaven and provided full and complete as a miracle of God's will.

[@GeneralZod99]

I am General Zod. Your ruler. Yes, today begins a new order. Your lands, your possessions, your very lives, will gladly be given in tribute to me, General Zod! In return for your obedience you will enjoy my generous protection. In other words you will be allowed to live. As for this "Superman".... come to me son of Yahweh, kneel before Zod!

[@BrookeK92]

Go away :)

[@DrMichaelWolf]

Even while mocking god the creator, you managed to unknowingly acknowledge that land rightfully belongs to god its creator & not to the self serving. This is why your not god but more importantly this is why we cannot selfishly own land in servitude for ourselves, since we did not generously create that which is a provision for all.

[@BrookeK92]

jared fargo Incolent fool! Bow down to the one true God! Lord Bielchiquixiliumorimbub! Don't believe me? No? Then why should I believe you?

[@GeneralZod99]

jared fargo It is pronounced *Zod*, not god. Where is the son of Yahweh? Why is he hiding? I win. I always win. Is there no one on this planet to even challenge me?

[@GodlessScummer]

Kneel before Zod.

[@tinaspringer651]

dismissing fairytale fantasy stories in a book is not dismissing evidence. It's dismissing fairytale fantasy stories

[@wayneb4255]

4:08 "No the Koran was not written by an eye witness. It does not contain miracles" As I understand it Muslims believe that the Koran itself is a miracle delivered by an angel.

[@charleshobbs8679]

desperate caller....grasping at straws

[@simon201063]

3:59 into this video and I'm mystified as to how Matt tolerated the caller for this long.

[@ryandubois3675]

He's completely wrong about the Qur'an. Most Muslims believe the miracles. Like Muhammad riding a Pegasus to heaven.

[@kinganimal3075]

Splitting the moon in half too.

[@shanewilson7994]

What the caller tends to not understand is that there is a huge difference between a mundane claim, and one that can be backed up by additional supporting evidence, than "a man rose from the dead, and an army of zombies also rose on the same day" without any real additional supporting evidence.

[@jeradclark8533]

As to the anonymity of Tacitus' annals you must be joking. The gospel of Matthew is a one off work, the only text we have from this author, the artist formerly known as Matthew. Tacitus is quite different. We have his Dialogue on oratory, Agricola, Germania, the Histories and the Annals. He gives biographical information in Germania, hell Agricola is about his father in law! He also gives biographical information in the Histories. That is why apologists never mention these works when using this argument. The Histories and the Annals are not two separate works but are clearly meant to be read in tandem. The Annals are a prequel to the histories and are therefore linked to the histories. By analyzing the syntax, grammar, themes, biases, vocabulary and more in all of these works we know they were written by the same author. The very same author who also wrote letters to his friend Pliny the Younger who names him. Scientists have proven that each person has a unique writing style. This theory has been verified in dozens of observed experiments. However apologists dishonestly assert that this authorship was established via a single offhand quote similar to the basis of the authorship of the gospel written by the artist formerly known as Matthew. Not even close. The day that the gospel of Matthew can allow archaeologists, as in forensic scientists the ability to locate and explain hundreds if not thousands of pieces of physical evidence to say nothing of the massive explanatory power Tacitus gives historians, when the gospel does that only then can we compare "Matthew" to Tacitus. And that is just the first thing wrong with his argument...

[@ronhickson72]

The Koran kicks off with the miracle of an Angelic visiting Mohammed while he slept.

[@davids11131113]

Right, Kabane just makes up whatever suits his baseless arguments and lies about the rest.

[@RandyRandersonthefamous]

"if religious people were reasonable there wouldn't be religious people" -I forget

[@llkiii3139]

How could Matthew be an eye witness? His gospel is said to have been written about 80 C.E., about five decades after Jesus died. Furthermore, he wrote in very good Greek, indicating he was highly educated. In contrast, the disciples were probably illiterate Aramaic speakers. Plus, Matthew writes in the third-person. From what I can tell, the writer is narrating events from a third person perspective, and never seems to claim to be an eye witness at all. Plus some of what Matthew wrote could not have been something any of Jesus's disciples ever witnessed directly. For example, details related to Jesus's birth as well as details concerning the conversation he had with God in Gesthemane (while Peter and the Sons of Zebedee slept).

[@aesericho3651]

Sources? Not arguing, just would like to know

[@llkiii3139]

+Aeser Icho I recommend Bart Ehrman's book, Jesus Interrupted. Ehrman aside, you can get a good feel for the contemporary scholarship regarding the gospels by performing a Google search such as "dating the gospels." I recommend steering clear of any blatantly fundamentalist websites and sticking to material published by more neutral sources instead. Carm.org and other fundamentalist websites are too steeped in theological commitments to actually critically examine the gospels from an objective standpoint.

[@llkiii3139]

+Aeser Icho I recommend Bart Ehrman's book, Jesus Interrupted. Ehrman aside, you can get a good feel for the contemporary scholarship regarding the gospels by performing a Google search such as "dating the gospels." I recommend steering clear of any blatantly fundamentalist websites and sticking to material published by more neutral sources instead. Carm.org and other fundamentalist websites are too steeped in theological commitments to actually critically examine the gospels from an objective standpoint.

[@llkiii3139]

+Aeser Icho Also, there are many great vids on the gospels right here on KZbin. Profmth has a channel with many videos that break down the claimed fulfilled prophecies contained in Matthew. TruthSurge also has an interesting series of videos on the gospels entitled, Excavating the Empty Tomb.

[@aesericho3651]

Lewis K. Ya I steer clear of any fundamental groups. Thnx

[@AGrayPhantom]

This is probably the best oppositional caller I've heard on this show. Unfortunately, debate isn't a very good pathway to truth.

[@SspaceB]

Especially when your bald opponent is stubborn and in bad faith

[@myoung48281]

People seeing religious symbols in clouds, trees, reflections, and those are in the 20th century. People see what they want to see, can you imagine how much more intense that phenomena was 2000 years ago.

[@ronmc4554]

Kabane told a few lies in this video.

[@davids11131113]

And special pledding.

[@Traitorman..Proverbs26.11]

One of the best ways to argue ones position. Claim some lie and then deflect from any counter argument by saying “you don’t know and I have done extensive research”.

[@thomash1992]

Jesus built a stargate in my back yard. Based on the theistic standard of evidence, you have no choice but to believe this.

[@prodprod]

I'm afraid Matt really didn't do a very good job defending himself here. You could easily reference someone like Sathya Sai Baba -- a contemporary Indian mystic (although I think he's actually dead now) who was believed to be a living God by hundreds of thousands of people, was witnessed by any number of people to heal the sick, raise the dead, perform miracles -- and they certainly weren't hypnotized. And whatever excuse Kabane might give -- that he was a fraud, that it was mass hallucination, etc -- right back at ya regarding Jesus' miracles.

[@sabin97]

perhaps he was not aware of sathya sai baba? i think his religious expertise is in christianity, i'm not sure he knows much more than the average person about taosim, hinduism and other religions.

[@cadenpolen9531]

Okay; prove your standard of evidence, or gtfo.

[@prodprod]

I'll assume, to a degree of generosity that your comment certainly doesn't merit, that when you say "prove" you mean it in the context of "test" -- the test for any standard of evidence is robustness -- namely that when you apply it to something, it yields accurate results. If you apply a standard of evidence to something that can be confirmed through independent means and the results are consistent, there's a good chance that you've arrived at some useful methodology, which you can then move into unexplored realms. For instance, you first confirm DNA testing on populations whose identity and relatedness is known. If it works consistently on confirming those patterns of relatedness, then you have a good basis for extending the use of those tests on individuals of unknown relatedness. In the same way, you start with contemporary examination of miraculous claims and see what sort of robust confirmations you can get -- and then try to extent that process. Unfortunately, there really hasn't been any consistent confirmation of contemporary miracle claims. Just lots of anecdotal evidence. That is evidence, no doubt. But it just doesn't add up to anything that meets the standard of "robustness." There's nothing there that allows anyone to make any sort of prediction about the nature or reality of any particular miracle or miracles generally, whether they're likely to happen in the present, the past, the future -- or even if they're really happening now at all or ever happened or ever will happen -- or if the entire thing is a pseudo-phenomenon which can be explained by strictly natural causes. And if that's not enough for you -- gfu.

[@yussuqmadiq5274]

What he was trying to say that he doesn't have the information at hand. But not many former Christians are aware of other religions.

[@cadenpolen9531]

Yeah actually "prodprod" you have proven nor given ANY evidence whatsoever that support your beliefs or claims at all other than there was a book that was passed on and has anecdotal report. None of this stands as actual evidence, otherwise EVERYONE would believe it. The difference between science and religion is that although science cannot have absolute certainty, religion has no evidence or certainty behind it at all other than faith. K u can gtfo now, thx for your ignorance FYI you sinned by telling me to gfu. Thanks for your being kind to all. Hypocrite.

[@expaddler]

The simplest way to address this issue...The text that we call The Gospel According to Matthew was written anonymously.

[@FartisticFlatulence]

Answers to your questions: 1 - Most mentioned: because the story is popular. 2: Number of bibles in print: again, popular. Neither of these provides any support to miracle claims (both are appeals to popularity). 3. Why argue against belief in god: Beliefs have consequences when people act on them. Beliefs that are unsupported by the facts tend to be counterproductive.

[@abdulrahmanalhumidan3854]

The Qur'an mentioned some miracles... One of them is the prophet journey from Mecca to Jerusalem and his ascending to heaven... Another one is how Allah broke the moon into to pieces.... So according to Tommy, those miracles happened, which proves the Islamic religion to be true, and he should accept it...

[@bamdam2848]

LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL allah broke the moon into pieces balalalala we must kill the infidels now in the name of mo peace be upon him

[@Rippedflesh69]

No religion ; then humanity will make progress!

[@rossini55]

I can think of three examples off the top of my head of 'miracles' in the quran. The splitting of the moon, Mo going to meet dead people on a flying horse with a human head, and a murdered man coming back to life after being hit with a cow leg and accusing his killer, lol

[@rossini55]

@Anthony James Quran gives brief mentions and hadith and other texts fill in the details: Night Journey flying horse Q17.1 Splitting Moon Q54.1 Yellow Cow story Q2. 67-73

[@612Tiberius]

How could anyone think that this kid came out ahead in this discussion? He talks fast, and knew one point of fact that Matt didn't, so half a point for him for that - that's all. Even that is negated by his lack of understanding of what special pleading is.

[@hrsqsiest]

This kid sounds like a recent graduate from the Sye Ten school of dishonest debate. Matt: I didn't say that. Caller: But, but, but you have to say that. It's in my script. I say A, you say B, I then say C, causing you to say D, I then say E.................

[@TheReddaredevil223]

This theist came the closest I've ever seen to making a coherent argument.

[@ZER0--]

How does he know that Matthew wasn't hipnotised to think he saw was miracles? That DOES make much more sense.

[@GeorgeLiavas]

Apostolic succession also refutes Matt's claims. We have a direct lineage of bishops from the apostles to today. My local priest can trace back to Andrew. We have the list of every Patriarchate.

[@d007ization]

Great argument bro. Everyone who has no experience in debate will have similar problems.

[@Camerinus]

Tacitus: (1) His *contemporary* Pliny the Younger wrote letters to him that were preserved. Kabane relies on his apologist Christians who ignore the evidence that is inconvenient to them. Pliny's letters 1.6, 1.20, 4.13, etc. etc. are addressed to Tacitus. (2) What matters most is that many if not most modern historians are critical or very critical of Tacitus' history. There is no *Tacitus apologist*. If there is, such a person wouldn't need to be taken seriously by professional historians.

[@KRT054]

The following passage is taken from the Holy Bible's book of Mark chapter 4, verses 11 through 12. This passage records the words of Jesus instructing his disciples to lie to people. (Authorized King James Version of 1611): MARK 4:11-12 11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. The following three passages record what the God that Jesus is supposed to be the only begotten son of states: EXODUS 23:7 7 Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked. DEUTERONOMY 10:17 17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons , nor taketh reward: DEUTERONOMY 24:17 17 Thou shalt not pervert the judgment of the stranger, nor of the fatherless; nor take a widow's raiment to pledge: Christianity is really a very bad religion. And to think that the church has led people to believe that Jesus was God's free gift of salvation to humanity. How disgraceful!!!

[@laurakenny359]

Special pledding

[@ryleighs9575]

More like special PLEB-ing.

[@Bamont]

@leftovers0 Incorrect. Buddhism still falls under the "assumption of divinity" based on the teachings of Gautama. While at it's core it might be better considered a "way to live" - there are still magical elements attached to it which a plethora of people do consider divine. Granted, it's not the same level of divinity as the Big Three.. but they still think it's inspired by something which can't be proven.

[@richieblackhearted]

Just so you know, Christ was already dead before he was pulled off the cross. Death was caused by either exposure, starvation, critical wounds from the crucifixion or the "merciful" death from a soldiers spear while on the cross. This depends on what passage you're reading though as all biblical accounts of Christs death and resurrection are contradicting in some way or another. I share this with you because your comment is open to a wide variety of critique. It helps to know in advance.

[@Avatra1]

You know, for writing so much, you really do not write much at all. It's the same old "it's your fault, you are biased, you bring up false assumptions" You still didn't answer the question, instead you dodged it, and placed the blame on the person asking the question, that's so nice.

[@giorgiomx]

That's the "sister" question of "What are your beliefs?", this what society has convinced itself, that you need a belief for your life to make sense, but because you and I know that to believe is not knowing then is like asking "what is that that you don´t know and base your life on it?", so instead of that we base our life in the understanding of the consequences of our actions, and we go from there, exercising real moral, not someone else's imposed "moral", which would be obeying.

[@venom769]

I have a problem with the line of argument here: Matt justifies applying a different standard to Matthew than Tacitus because Matthew's claims are extraordinary. But that's not the point. Matthew's Gospel was written with the intention of being understood as true and based on historical fact. Agreeing with the content or not is a separate issue. That doesn't have any connection with what standard one uses to determine authorship. Applying an inconsitant standard also weakens the argument.

[@rationalmartian]

Here here. Splendidly put m8. Nice one and a thumb up.

[@casablanca4381]

@elvebrothergenju i'm glad to hear you would treat me with standards i have for myself and others.Not a lot of people do that on the net these days. Thank you

[@DebunkingTheNarrative]

2) Every time you find multiple components working together to give an over all function and each component is placed in a coordinated fashion.This attribute always comes from a mind. Laptops Iphones ect. So I ask you what force besides a mind is capable of arranging all the components of the cell in a coordinated fashion in order to give an over all function like that of a laptop. This is what you are obligated to answer under your atheistic world view.

[@1upyermom]

That was one clever little scoundrel, that caller was dexterous in the art of shifting the argument to his advantage and twisting words meaning.

[@Bamont]

@4IDHero It's not 'generalizing'. A religion is a belief system based on the assumption of divinity. If you can demonstrate that a majority of religions do not follow the criteria in my previous sentence, then I'll say you have a point. It's fine if you try to make sense of life, the issue is that you have no demonstrable evidence to prove why your deity exists over anyone else's, or why any rational or logical person would agree with something that has no evidence to support it.

[@magdalenasalas9467]

Awesome, Caller thumbs up

[@SuperAnimalDrummer]

how? just because the kid is obviously intelligent, and is able to sound convinced of himself aside from being unable to demonstrate the truth of the gospels, does not mean that Matt got owned. Actually, Matt was able to deflect this caller at every turn.

[@firstatheist]

I like how "Kabane" thinks that the speed of his reply informs the validity of it.

[@pyrespirit]

The basics of logic are not immaterial, they are in fact directly material. They're not bestowed upon us, and do not require people to be conscious of them in order to exist. Things are what they are regardless of whether something is there to observe them. They're not what they're not. And they're not halfway between what they are and aren't.

[@BlackhawkBrown]

It's interesting that the caller seems to admit that the text is "ALL THE EVIDENCE" for these miracles.

[@unnervingfalcon]

(Alien abduction not under hypnosis example) The movie Fire In The Sky about lumberjacks and one taken. Movie made by their accounts.

[@ALEXANDER1318]

True enough, it was late at night when I posted both comments, so my tired mind made me write it in a strange way I guess. I've removed the comments to prevent misinterpretation.

[@CJCroen1393]

Well, to be fair... if you have a pet bird, then you have a pet dinosaur. And if you have a pet monitor lizard, then you have a pet dragon.

[@ryleighs9575]

How's that being fair? You're reaching so far I'm surprised you haven't pulled something. Birds MIGHT be debatable, but there are no animals we've observed which resemble a dragon in the most significant aspects; monitor lizards can not breath fire, nor do they have wings to fly.

[@CJCroen1393]

Birds ARE dinosaurs and monitor lizards were the inspiration for dragon myths. Simple. One can also argue that "I have a pet dragon" is accurate if they conveniently leave out the word "bearded" (a bearded dragon is a type of lizard that is very commonly kept as a pet).

[@SweRaider1993]

I do it and probably many others because of our social issues in society. Religions (most) goes against almost everything we strive to achieve which is understanding, acceptance, peace, progress, etc. So its a good cause, not the most efficient but it's doing something.

[@derek24hudson]

@realtyofislam Hitchens spoke equally passionately against the dangerous nonsense of religion after his diagnosis for cancer. IF he had 'had doubts' about his beliefs in the light of his imminent death then that would have been a gigantic argument AGAINST faith, demonstrating that FEAR is the biggest motivation in the invention of gods and afterlives.

[@SweRaider1993]

That's probably the biggest reason ^^ Haha make sure to take a break sometimes, it can get real frustrating sometimes because people are on completely different levels of understanding and opinion. You have to take that into account too. I've recently been arguing with some people who tried to argue with science that they didn't understand. That's when it gets out of hand. I think science is our common understanding and if we don't have a solid foundation then there is nothing to be discussed.

[@PeopleMustAct]

"’Muslims scholars dismiss the hadith", simply a lie. most of the Muslim religeon is derived from hadith which is a vast collection of verbal and written tradition.

[@TheMisterGuy]

No, he says "stop" when the caller goes off on a tangent or keeps repeating a defeated or irrelevant point. It happens a lot. This caller isn't the worst about it, there are others who try to rant and ramble for ten minutes at a time on stuff that has nothing to do with the conversation.

[@richieblackhearted]

In fairness, the resurrection of a corpse after 3 days would be miraculous though, and I think that is the main principle behind the Resurrection/Ascension Miracle mythos. The point to enforce it is that Christ was dead for some time (several days at the least) before his resurrection.

[@mellodees3663]

This conversation was challenging.

[@davidvickers2272]

lol, the caller says that alien encounter stories are false because they come from people in a hypnotic state. What does that say about all the god encounters in the bible that came from days and weeks of fasting?

[@FormerHumanX]

Tommy claims that the Koran doesn't contain miracles. The entire basis of the Koran is that the archangel Gabriel came down from heaven to visit Mohammed and then dictated the word of god to him. That's how the Koran was supposedly written. Is that not a miracle?

[@neelzen9975]

Tommy doesnt need gym, his mental gymnastics to defend his zombie magician burns enough calories to keep him fit

[@feydrautha012]

Miracles in other religions (all with as much evidence as zombie Jesus): Mithras born from a stone, Adonis died and reborn, Arachne turned into a spider by Athena, death/rebirth of Xipe Totec, visitation by angels for Muhammed/Joseph Smith, etc. So why has God(s) suddenly become unable/unwilling to perform miracles when they could be recorded?

[@Ekkie101]

I'm digging that music. Is that Mose Allison?

[@Bamont]

@4IDHero Simply because he couldn't have provided an example at that point in time doesn't make his logical arguments carry any less weight. There are people from all over the world that claim to experience miracles, all from different religious groups, many of which do not follow Christianity. It's irrelevant if it's subjective or not - religion is a completely subjective concept which is why there are so many different interpretations of them (30,000+ in Christianity alone).

[@NoctambulantJoycean]

Yeah, I already said I agree with some of Dillahunty's. But agreement is not an excuse for overlooking poor argumentation or not being charitable to your opponent. Kabane made many plausible points and asked reasonable questions which Dillahunty unfairy addressed. That was all I was pointing out. I'd be happy to explain why we was unfair, once you calm down.

[@susheel2k7]

If people did not care about afterlife, I am convinced there would be no religions like Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, etc.

[@Pokerstiend]

Continued (Part 3): The caller said his name was Tommy, and this is reasonable to take at face-value because "Tommy" is a common name for people. However, the Gospel stories make super-natural claims, and I don't blame atheists one bit for not suspending their disbelief. If I told someone that I went to the mall yesterday, they may not know for sure if this was true, but there's nothing weird about this claim. But if I said that I had a battle with Alien invaders, then that's a different story.

[@ludodegroote3783]

Matt's "ball pen twist" is cool....

[@warrensmith8161]

Tacitus is "tacit" and Matthew was a "tax collector" who just happened to take other peoples work and claim it for his own. "Do you have eyes but fail to see...?"

[@billyfer97]

i love the flying spaghetti monster in the back round

[@Sinnessa]

It's ok. I didn't expect you to handle a serious response.

[@Avatra1]

I explained why religions would be wrong in that example, here is the same explanation, albeit with some more flesh to it so you see why you are being dishonest. 1. Until you prove it, you are making guesses. 2. Even if other dimensions exist, it doesn't make your god of the gaps/appeal to ignorance/shifting the burden of proof argument correct. 3. Even if other dimensions exist, and gods exist, you still had to prove that it was your god. Why is this so freaking hard to understand?

[@TheRamas4]

What ever I can see, feel, touch or hear or rationally and logically analyze with the available evidences.

[@NBM397]

That caller is a great example of the logic of Erasmus Montanus (i.e. Mother cannot fly. A rock cannot fly. Ergo; Mother is a rock).

[@Pokerstiend]

But even things that can accepted at face-value are obviously not always true. The big difference is: some claims are very plausible and a person can have reasonable expectations that they are real and believe in them and accept as true (until shown otherwise), even if you aren't 100% sure. However, super-natural claims are very bizarre, and there's nothing wrong if a person doesn't accept it based on face value (even if it's ultimately true).

[@ingenjannik]

Matt didn't do a good job in this conversation like he usually does. He didn't stay calm even though the caller was polite and tried to make logical statements, non the less he failed to do so.

[@cglegg]

Sometimes the Internet makes me happy. Reading these comments is one of those times.

[@DJHypernovaUKHC]

The annals are not anonymous. We have a very good understanding of who Tacitus was and his work. He was hardly obscure, he was a consul under nerva. The author of Matthew on the other hand, we dont even know his name.

[@davids11131113]

'Jesus was NOT a hypnotist!' I'm gettin that on a t-shirt.

[@pyrespirit]

Holy straw man, batman. I didn't claim 'atheism is science', I said that the answer to your question arises from a scientific world view And no, we don't 'objectively know the attributes of other minds', we know that something is designed when we can see it being designed. Period. The fact that we know laptops are designed is irrelevant when it comes to for example cars We know cars are designed because we see them being designed, not because we know laptops are designed

[@Em183]

wow just wow I got no no words for Tommy.