Kai Leng, The Most Obnoxious Tryhard In The Galaxy (Mass Effect)

[@pikmonwolf]

Ignore 14:51-14:57 Troy Baker actually sucks :( Here's 15:11 for catharsis

[@teuast]

Damn, I hadn't played Femshep in a while and had forgotten just how hard Jennifer Hale goes on that line. Meer's delivery is good, but I *feel* Hale when she says that.

[@sonofhades57]

As of today, he really, really sucks.

[@khoavo510]

@@teuast I always feel Mark Meer's delivery most of the time was too wooden and frankly quite boring especially in ME1 but he definitely improve a lot in ME3. Though femshep will always be true shep for me mainly because of Hale's performance sounded so badass

[@CaptainRed1000]

What happened that makes Troy suck now?

[@khoavo510]

@@CaptainRed1000 he support NFTs recently

[@mechanomics2649]

I've seen the problem summed up succinctly as "You're not fighting Kai Leng. You're fighting the writers.".

[@pikmonwolf]

Like fighting the DM in a bad D&D game.

[@alexschott2092]

@@pikmonwolf This metaphor could also be applied to the Catalyst as well. No matter what we do or how much thought we put into debunking this awful writing, it always ends in a total party wipe.

[@HumdrumMadman]

@@alexschott2092 Agreed. When speaking to the Catalyst I feel like I'm arguing directly with Casey Hudson. But he gets to pick all my responses. I haven't touched the series since the original release of ME3 (Back when the relays literally exploded in the final cutscene), but having played the Legendary edition all the way through, it really amazes me how great the games are up until the final 15 minutes or so.

[@JaelinBezel]

@@pikmonwolf That's usually much easier because the DM never expects you to start punching him.

[@nathanielheilmann7351]

@@HumdrumMadman Which is why I always tell the Starchild to buzz off. Its obvious that the Starchild is just Casey Hudson putting himself into the video game ala Chris Avellone in KOTOR 2 and Fallout: New Vegas. Hated it back then, hated it now.

[@DissedRedEngie]

I kinda love how incompetent he becomes if thane is alive. He goes from, "I just assassinated one of the most important people" to "I failed because a terminally ill dude showed up".

[@pikmonwolf]

Kirrahe is also pretty funny. "Oh fuck that was the wrong Salarian.... uh shit ... alright I'm out!"

[@romxxii]

TBF, Thane also has the power to not suck during cutscenes, so it balances out.

[@funnyblog100]

Thane is just a way more experienced assassin and far outclasses him. If Thane wasn’t on his last legs he would have mopped the floor with Kai Leng.

[@raptorjesus3894]

@@funnyblog100 If Kai Leng didn't need artificial victories and the writers removing intelligence from our character and squad every time we fought him, Thane would have mopped the floor with him. Seriously, in Thanes encounter with him, he has a gun to his head, the element of surprise and then fucking taunts him and wastes the opportunity. Since when the fuck has Thane taunted people he was after? He is an extremely dangerous assassin who takes his work very seriously and knows not to play around.

[@funnyblog100]

@@raptorjesus3894 I can explain that. Because of Kai Leng's cybernetic augmentations he had superhuman reflexes and Thane knew he would have been able to react as soon as he heard the gun click. Thane was trying to get his attention away from the councilor. Thane knew he couldn't really match Kai Leng's reflexes in his current condition. He was hoping to taunt him into making a mistake.

[@guifire9747]

To be fair, an injured Bailey is worth 10 Kai Leng, so he was right to get out

[@Lyaagato]

and that random c-sec dude is former n7 and future third human spectre

[@guifire9747]

@@Lyaagato Yeah, the reapers waited for him to go on a vacation to take the Citadel, those two together are too much to handle

[@michaellarocca4879]

I mean, bailey got gut shot with no armor or shields with a gun that shoots faster than light speed and all it really did was piss him off.

[@crypto66]

I just played through that part last night and loled at that line. "Where's Cerberus?" "They ran when they saw us coming." TIM ran from two barely-armed, unarmored dudes, one of them shot in the gut.

[@Antykill_]

Am I the only one who thinks Kai Leng's role would have been played 1000x better by the Shepard Clone? Like imagine if the Illusive Man had kept the clone for spare parts for the real Sheppard and when Sheppard broke from Cerberus (and stole their best ship and all their top operatives) he just outfitted Clone Sheppard with a control chip and started sending him on his own missions as a counter operative.

[@lunarcultist6214]

The "evil clone" trope is a bit corny, which works for the mostly lighthearted tone of the Citadel DLC, but not so much for the main antagonist of the story.

[@jgw9990]

@Lunar Cultist The reapers are the main antagonist. Even Kai Lang is a servant of the illusive man who is a secondary antagonist. A better alterative is to just have cereberus abduct ash/kaiden on Mars rather than injuring them - they're already mistrutful of you, and after jamming reaper tech in their brain they can be turned fairly convincingly. Especially Ash who is obnoxiously standoffish through ME2 and ME3.

[@seikoshinohara3084]

@@lunarcultist6214 I kinda agree with both of you

[@Handlelesswithme]

I feel like what kept Kai Leng bad was he was an obstacle not a character You don’t feel threatened by a barred door but if that barred came alive and had motivation to kill you, you would Evil Shepherd was a character

[@RedDrake110]

Evil clone with a second SR-2 normandy? if done correctly, i'd be down for that plot

[@m0rtez713]

Kai Leng is basically already a fanfic character, so it's hard to make him even worse.

[@Sigurjon96]

Facts he's just so worthless. ME3 would have been much better without him. Instead they try to make him into this laughable nemesis of Shepard. He's such a clown and a coward.

[@artemisfowldragon]

even then, most of the fanfic i've read had to make him stronger in order to not make everyone else involved look like an idiot

[@KopperNeoman]

@@artemisfowldragon That's really the problem with Leng in ME3. The game mechanics can't cash the cheque that the expanded universe wrote for him. If he actually DID kick your hide in the boss fights, leaving you scrambling for an opening, then he would be remembered as a menace rather than a tryhard. You wouldn't need any other changes.

[@flybynight8119]

Illusive Man: “Do it because I told you to” Kai Leng: “BECAUSE YOU TOLD ME TO!”

[@DarkLordMorningstar]

Plot twist: Kai Leng is in-love with TIM and trying to prove his consistency. Also consider; maybe it's not love but in-fact a traumabond because he had shitty parents growing up, therefore a skewed outlook on what makes people okay to be around, and therefore he sees TIM as a worthy figure. ( Okay, wow, I see it now - That Jacob Leng shit really does write itself. ) Also, also; possible redemption, convince him to go to therapy, some-such.

[@as7river]

Ahhh, a Spongebob reference. I see you're a man of culture.

[@bipo819]

Imaging him typing up his little death threat to Shepard

[@illizcit1]

"Hehehehe. This'll ruffle the feathers of someone who survived several suicide missions and kills reapers on foot. Hehehe"

[@alexmason1604]

Imagine Shepard just laughing her ass off at the little death threat and called the entire crew to shit on it. Then sends it back to him with revisions on how to make it more threatening.

[@blueberrypineapples441]

I don’t know why but these three comments got a genuine laughter out of me 😂

[@The.Orange.Wizard]

I can imagine him hunched over a computer in a dark room still in his edgy ninja gear.

[@cornellblok9543]

@@alexmason1604 I personally laughed my ass off as I read it

[@geofff.3343]

Shamus Young has a really good breakdown of why Kai Leng doesn't work. Basically, he's that one asshole who when told that the D&D campaign will be about a grounded realistic world with rare magic and a more deliberate medieval motif, wants to play his half dragon-half-demon-half-elf gun-warlock named Azurel Bloodleaf.

[@CidGuerreiro1234]

Also known as "That Guy".

[@inspiteofshame]

Wait, how do you know my friend?

[@Kronosfobi]

To be fair, We have another character that also broke the rules of ME's relatively realistic world. Kasumi. She literally jumps around like a Tick on steroids during her loyalty mission on ME2. We *know* for a fact that she is not a biotic, and her absurdly superhuman abilities are never explained.

[@mori6434]

@@Kronosfobi honestly though I never even noticed, which says to me that that's within the range of suspension of disbelief I hold for the series. Now that you've pointed it out, I'd be perfectly content to do a mild handwave with something like "oh, she's got some tech in her suit that improves her mobility" because that's really not much of a stretch. Also I actually like Kasumi, so one scene where she gets to be the star and do something cool is just fine with me.

[@Kronosfobi]

​@@mori6434 She is a great character, but that the *only* instance we see any character pull off a Jedi jump like that.. Until Kai Leng. Who got critisized for the exact same feat. I really like Kasumi. Her small but compact story arc is great! However you can tell during the production of her DLC and Kai Lang, *someone* in the writers room had been watching too much anime. Comparing that to the pathetic jump Shepard does during the battle between a reaper and Kalros, it really sticks out. Nobody does the same feat. Not Jack (who is swimming in Biotics), Not Venir (who barely uses biotics to slow her fall down from approximetly the same distance Kasumi did a backflip and landed over), Not even Samara pulls that kind of stunt. For people who can literally create miniture blackholes, You'd think they would be able to pull whatever Kai Leng and Kasumi were doing. Its not a huge deal, but it *does* stick out during a second or third playthrough when you start to focus on the scenes rather than the context. Just had to mention it, because she got a full pass for exact feat Kai Lang is hugely critized for. Fans essentially created Kai Lang. ''Sir, Fans loved Kasumi Goto. What if we had another one but.. EVIL!''

[@jhin3534]

It’s strange how no one brings up the fact that the normal phantoms are more threatening than Kai leng from both a gameplay and visual standpoint. You know why? BECAUSE THEY USE GUNS ALONG WITH THEIR SWORD. Phantoms have deadly precise aiming and their main goal in a combat situation is to close the gap through mechanically augmented gymnastics to elude bullets and by pressuring Shepard with a retaliation of their own bullets to force them into an arguably much deadlier situation of a melee encounter with an agile sword specialist.

[@mori6434]

Yeah, but their weird little slow flips like a gymnist doing a dance routine looks silly af. If they dodged normally with a quick duck and roll I would have basically no issue with them, but... those flips... they just look so stupid and so weirdly slow. It's so frustrating when my Warp will randomly just not curve to hit the enemy that "dodged" by moving like a foot to the left when every other enemy has to throw themselves out of the trajectory.

[@lavrentii-kolotushkin]

Phantoms also have instakills like Banshee if they're too close to you

[@RappinPicard]

I think you’re all forgetting a very important factor about Kai Leng and one that actually makes him the best character in the entire franchise. . . . . Good. You opened this message. This isn’t actually asari military command. They’re busy tending to what’s left of their planet. So you survived our fight on Thessia. You’re not as weak as I thought. But never forget that your best wasn’t good enough to stop me. Now an entire planet is dying because you lacked the strength to win. The legend of Shepard needs to be re-written. I hope I’m there for the last chapter. It ends with your death. -KL

[@NostalgicGamerRickOShay]

How does an ultra-cringey email that looks like it was written by a juvenile make him a better character?

[@akishorekumarr]

@@NostalgicGamerRickOShay It doesn't. And that's the joke.

[@deilard1287]

This is the funniest thing I've seen in a week

[@Itsuboi-s8g]

Just give him short lines if he lacks a lot of things. “Shepard, redeem yourself and fight” or “You shouldn’t go”

[@Hellion73]

You got me🤣👍

[@tentrilliconlp7748]

There's actually a mod that swaps Kai Leng with some Cerberus soldier (the one with the swords) and cuts all of his dialogue and I think that even something as simple as that is better than what they did with him.

[@pikmonwolf]

Honestly not a single word he says adds anything, so definite improvement lol.

[@christineherrmann205]

Aw, man. I wish I'd known about that mod before I recorded most of the playthrough.

[@DokturProfesur]

Thank you for this public service announcement.

[@KyzoAni]

There's another similar mod created that replace Kai Leng with the Virmire Casualty (aka the one you left on Virmire in ME1). It's only for the non Legendary Edition though.

[@smartalec2001]

There's a mod in development that replaces Leng with a mind-chip-implanted Miranda Lawson or Jacob Taylor, building up a subplot of them being under the control of the Illusive Man. kzbin.info/www/bejne/hZzTqImGiKp9rrM

[@marcusc9931]

He is supposed to be a replacement for Shepard, and is great at portraying just how much the Illusive Man misses the point of what makes Shepard great.

[@venthier3093]

But the illusive Man understood what made Shepard great, which is why the Lazerus project made as little changes to him as possible and that shows that Leng is just a shoddy replacement because that all he got, why else would the illusive Man use him as his "go to" man if he had any better, Shepard was gone and so was Miranda, so he used the best his money could buy

[@scottgrasser9475]

@@venthier3093 the illusive man was becoming indoctrinated and became more cookie cutter evil and stupid also one could argue sheperd telling him to F off at the end of 2 changed the illusive mans mind on whats good

[@wilmagregg3131]

@@venthier3093 ME3 illusive man is diffrent then the past 2 because he made the arrogant descion to implant himself with reaper tech and no suprise it slowly turned him into nothing more then saren 2 a idealouge brought under controll of the reapers who thinks hes free of there influence.

[@Jmoney32689]

If you read TIM’s origin story in one of the comics, you’ll find that he had been infected with Reaper tech since the end of the First Contact War. He had been fighting indoctrination for DECADES and in ME3, he finally broke.

[@Nikoli492]

@@Jmoney32689 not to mention that him bringing back the dead human reaper to his home base from ME2 has more likely made him fully indoctrinated in ME3.

[@Dragon81205]

Kai Leng in cutscene: badass and edgy Kai Leng in gameplay: weak and a crybaby

[@pikmonwolf]

Hey hey looks super badass as he gets flung around like a ragdoll :P

[@aronhalverson2115]

Just don't blow his head off, it glitches out the game, found out that one the hard way

[@Luke-nz5xo]

Anime won't work in Mass Effect A.K.A 'Kai Leng'.

[@wilmagregg3131]

@@Luke-nz5xo to be fair it mainly dosent work cause space magic like i swear bioware didnt think how biotic shepard makes him a total joke to fight it is hilarious seeing him get flung around though youd swear cartoon sound effects should be going off

[@xsoultillerx]

i feel like pat from pat stares at/castle superbeast said it best in that everything about kai leng is likely the result of a writer and a designer who hated each other having a fight.

[@a.p.2019]

My favorite part is that Anderson's "alarming" back story is basically "Yeah he was a pain in the @$$ but we shot him, so he ran away. But now he's back, so he might be stronger or something."

[@butterysnail2537]

coming from someone who read the book where that happened, its so annoying that the game just shrugs and is like "go there if you wanna understand the villain." the full story of kai leng and anderson's first encounter is genuinely really cool and the game does absolutely nothing with it or leng's character in general

[@VioletAeonSnowfield]

I've never thought of making Kai Leng a squadmate for ME2, but it makes a lot of sense. Especially since it would make an interesting dichotomy with Miranda. The Illusive Man putting both of his top lieutenants on the Normandy SR-2, with one remaining loyal to TIM while Shepard earns the loyalty of the other. Plus, no Jacob is always a good idea!

[@Kenny-o6i]

But give him a better design

[@sonofhades57]

The greatest indictment of Kai Leng as an antagonist: I decided on a whim to beat him to death with my bare hands on Thessia. I was playing an Adept. He lost horribly.

[@BlazinVoid59]

I once beat him only using concussive shots and kept meleeing him as a soldier. I just wanted to fling his ass all over the place

[@Robul96]

Imagine my shock when that punk loses, the moment he's not against a defenseless politician

[@S3Cs4uN8]

@@Robul96 I'm pretty confident that had the Salarian Councilor aggressively gestured towards Kai Leng he would have run away.

[@Robul96]

@@S3Cs4uN8 And later broke into his apartament and ate his cereal in a show of dominance #tottalydidnthappen

[@gamingwizard1569]

I was an infiltrator and I had the black widow maxed out with the best attachments and was level 59 at the time of that fight on Thessia

[@specracer28]

Personally I just hate the forced losses and how everyone acknowledges that you "lost" but of all the times I've played Mass effect which is a lot this guy has never once done a single point of damage to me no matter the difficulty. Either I stun lock him to death or I head shot him with the black widow. If he were truly actually impossible to beat and just was too fast and hit too hard that would be one thing. But when every fight with him is the equivalence of older brother holding back some brat with one hand it's irritating to be consoled by everyone on the ship when you "lose".

[@byronstier7438]

The games are easy on insanity so what do you expect. The game has to make up for how easy it is by forcing losses on you in cutscenes.

[@CidGuerreiro1234]

I recently had a similar experience playing Spider-Man: Miles Morales. It was so painful to watch the cutscenes where Miles kept getting his ass handed over to him over and over by the Tinkerer, when in the actual game she was a total pushover even on the highest difficulties.

[@dollarestoreoffbrand5545]

Leng is easier than the geth frog things (geth assassins I think) from the first game. If he had their programing and jump shit it would be alot better

[@thomasraines1396]

@@dollarestoreoffbrand5545 I just fought those things, annoying as hell.

[@s.o.q2914]

The geth did more damage than him.

[@LenaVoices]

Okay but I'm absolutely LIVING for the fact that Thane, a man who spent a good chunk of his life living by the idea that he should not hold grudges or be petty and all that, on his DEATHBED, took a hot second to drag Kao Leng. And I love and agree with all the points with the video, but I do like that we got a plot punching bag. Yeah he sucks in every way but the hate for this man has brought all of us together and if there one singular thing everyone in the galaxy can agree on, it's that this guy sucks and everyone hates him

[@wilmagregg3131]

i kinda get why thane chuckled as he said it so he wasnt serious he was just having one last laugh and in a way was a humble way of saying "wow even as a dying man i still managed to do something good with it haha"

[@sazechs_451]

Well the writers needed Leng to win against the terminally ill person with 5 days to live so...

[@KopperNeoman]

@@sazechs_451 "The writers needed the terminally ill guy to be able to hold his own because the ill guy is named Thane Krios and the fans would be mad if he got bodied" Fixed.

[@FuraFaolox]

Kai Leng just feels like he was added last-minute, and the team had to quickly incorporate him into the story somehow

[@thefunnyman3187]

Knowing how rushed mass effect 3 was that’s probably exactly what happened

[@717UT]

Oh wow.... The idea of combining Kai with Jacob is such a fantastic idea. What a gut wrencher I could have been to have a former squadmate and friend turn against you in fantastic fashion.

[@grzegorzantczak3775]

For what it's worth Kai is a good anti-example for teaching story tellers how not to do their villains. Helps me with letting go of my darlings when running RPGs. Before I pull out plot armor for my big evil it helps to ask myself: "Am I creating another Kai Leng here?"

[@CidGuerreiro1234]

"Am I Kai Lenging?"

[@NostalgicGamerRickOShay]

"You went full Kai Leng. You never go full Kai Leng."

[@suwatsaksri7191]

At least Sarens Virmire confrontation felt like an equal standoff, he escapes and you lose a squadmember but you still managed to complete your goal and at least you get some insights on the antagonist and the agency to choose who to save

[@sev1120]

And you very clearly injure Saren. Even if not physically, you wound his pride and damage his resolve to the point it's possible to beat his first final boss phase entirely by talking to him

[@QuothTheRavenclaw11]

​@@sev1120 God I love Mass Effect 1.

[@J.J.Jameson_of_Daily_Bugle]

@@sev1120 Yeah, he's actually fighting Sovereign's influence in that scene, and he also mentions on Citadel that he's no longer having any doubts, which pretty much means Sovereign indoctrinates him further. This is why I always felt bad for Saren, he might have not like humans, but it's understandable, Turians and Terrans fought in a war not long ago (30 years), and there are plenty of NPCs that dislike Terrans, however he might have been legit good guy otherwise. In a way he's what Shepard could have become if you think about it.

[@tylermcneeley3136]

Mass Effect 1 is the only ME game with a satisfying ending

[@kaijiuiloop5872]

@@J.J.Jameson_of_Daily_Bugle factts when he offed himself with the renegade option He redeemed himself in my eyes. He knew he was being controlled and in his last moments in control of his own body he takes his own life.

[@thegrayinthefield8764]

"What's his motivation for trying to kill the councilor?" TIM offered him a bowl of frosted mini-wheats. "Why does he steal the Prothean VI? " TIM offered him a bowl of Cocoa Puffs. "Why does he desperately want to kill Shepard?" He thinks Shepard's hiding a stash of Fruity Pebbles. My personal joke is that virtually everything he does and all of his motivations revolve around his love for cereal.

[@gimmeyourrights8292]

Shepard, you have taken my cereal and now I'll take your life!

[@bladewarrior5824]

Commander Shepard took my most prized spoon when he left Curberus. I will never recover until I make him eat the worst cereal imaginable, November 7th 2012 cheerios

[@artyomsaveli9681]

Oh my god, Tim is such a fitting name for the Illusive Man.

[@bryguy615]

Not everyone needs a deep back story. He is a merc. They are bad. Thats real life

[@jimbob1862]

Project Lazarus cut into the Cerberus catering arms cereal budget too much so Shepard had to go, makes total sense if you ask me

[@leowulf5280]

Here's how you fix Kai Leng. Replace him in his entirety with the Shephard clone from the Citadel DLC. Instead of two fights do three, adding a short one in the room where he kills Thane. In this fight you find out that he uses powers from whatever class your shepherd is. He can trash talk various choices you made in the previous games (letting Kaiden/Ashley die for example) as if he knows you very intimately. Have him having your same powers coupled with having advanced reaper tech like mentioned in the video make in a legitimately over powering threat. Unmask him at Thessia when you put up a better fight, or maybe do it right before the final battle with him.

[@Xpwnxage]

That seems like it would be pretty stupid to do outside of a DLC but I still want it.

[@Kenny-o6i]

@@Xpwnxage It’s not stupid if done rignt. Keep in mind this is only a side antagonist.

[@tywulf6432]

Kei Lang should have been the antagonist on Priority: Mars that beats the crap out of Kaiden / Ashley to make Shepard be immediately out for his blood. Of course then they would have had to come up with another scenario for EDI to get her robot body, but there's a few easy ways for that to occur with all the Cerberus bases you hit during the course of ME:3.

[@Brother_O4TS]

Both could work. Eva Core as the inside agent and Kai Leng as the leader of the Cerberus strike force. Everything in the mission happens as it should be but Eva doesn't get up, Kai Leng comes in and beats the hell out of Kaiden/Ashley and prepares to kill him/her while Shepard and Liara was going through the wreck, they try to save K/A but are too far to reach him/her, James show up at the last minute and starts shooting at Leng with a shotgun to save K/A before Kai Leng could finish him/her off and Leng flees to another Cerberus shuttle. And know you have your set up for a antagonist

[@lewismartin3430]

​@catodes1295 or heck the alliance shuttles have guns. Let James open fire with them. Make it seem like heavy weaponry is the only method to fight leng off.

[@vanillecrotch]

@@lewismartin3430 and him using heavy weaponry dangerously close to an ally could also work with the "why are you risking everybody and your live" talk you have later with him. YT comments fixed the setup in 5 minutes 😭

[@ThoraxetheImpaile100]

Jack: "Hey, Cheerleader. My hair and I have been fighting Brutes and Marauders on the front lines of this war. Meanwhile, you got your big bubbly butt kicked by some guy with a sword." When even the non-playable members can make fun of an antagonist, you know you fucked up in development.

[@_NIKOS9_NIKOS]

Hell, his sword could have worked if he had something like an EMP device that can temporarely shut down your weapons and omni-tool making it necesarry to fight him in melee

[@wilmagregg3131]

or if he had actual biotics a sword with biotics should be freaking terryfying Biotic charge plus a biotic shielded sword equals a blade that can could threw anything with thousands upon thousands of pounds of weight behind it plus it would of gone with his ninja aesthic teleporting around the battlefield slicing threw people and shields with ease better then him just running up and wacking you with basically a stick in terms of damage then getting thrown around like a rag doll as he currently is.

[@Bladezeromus]

@@wilmagregg3131 Leng is a dumb character but to be fair a sword wouldn't really need any extra bells or whistle to be an effective melee weapon in ME. The shields don't work on melee weapons and their armor is only effective against swords in the sense that it's armor. And I believe that Leng's sword is a monomolecular blade so armor isn't useful at all, anyway.

[@yokiryuchan7655]

Swords are useless when you can just fabricate anytype of bladed or melee weapon you want with an omni tool. Another reason why Kai Leng was such a dumb character, He used a useless outdated weapon that broke against Shepard's armor.

[@wilmagregg3131]

@@yokiryuchan7655 there is one reason i belive you cant enhance or infuse a omniblade with biotics like you could around a solid matter object.

[@VyVydoesMeth]

@@yokiryuchan7655 Innit guy chooses Amazon 10 dollar katana over the m940 Cain, collector guns or even biotics

[@brazenduke8164]

Totally agree with the whole combining him and Jacob thing. If the devs wanted to have a doomed relationship, that would be much more interesting than Jacob being a cheater. They actually do something similar in one of the dragon age games, but I won’t say more cause spoilers. Also, it would make him fighting Thane more impactful, if they actually went with their issues being a fight in 2. Thane being a problematic father and Jacob having daddy issues, plus the irony of Jacob not trusting Thane around Shephard, only for Thane to protect Shephard from Jacob. Hell, even the dorky ass edgelord stuff would make some more sense with Jacob. Cause Jacob is a fucking dork who says dumb stuff already. Make him more corrupted and evil, and you could buy him being like Kai Lang.

[@pikmonwolf]

Exactly. Jacob explicitly saying he doesn't trust Thane because he's an assassin is another thing that would make the scene so strong.

[@Funkin_Disher]

@@pikmonwolf also ironic considering Zaeed, the straightforward bloodthirsty mercenary

[@guifire9747]

True, Jacob is pretty much useless (i mean, apart from the first missions where you don't have a choice, who keep him in the squad after that?), honestly i just keep him alive 'cause he was technically from my squad (i would have prefered to have Kasumi and Zaeed having actual dialogue in ME2 rather than him) PS: only problem would be the suicide mission, if "Jacob Leng" die, replacing him with a random bad guy would make the story just as cheap

[@kratkartan1486]

That'd have been a better choice then Kai Lang tbh. I mean if you neglect Grissom Academy, Jack is turned into a Cerberus Phantom for example. Introduce Jacob as an indoctrinated masked character, and Thane breaks the helmet revealing it to be Jacob. That both increases the shock value of losing Thane, AND is a stab in the guy to the player. Making the rivalry much more impactful.

[@AlexS-oj8qf]

Jacob is the Outstanding Minority he couldn't be evil

[@TwinPeaksIndustries]

I still grin every time reading that part in a particular fanfic, where Shepard takes out Leng early, during the Citadel coup when, during the skycar scene, Shepard simply pulls up, crashing the car against the underside of a bridge, crushing him. Made even better by her later comment to Bailey that he can "scrape him off his wanted list", mentally adding "and off the High Lake Plaza Bridge" xD

[@connorv5482]

Name pls😂

[@TwinPeaksIndustries]

@@connorv5482Its "Could not stop for death" by Desert Sunrise. Part 4 of a (currently) 8 part series, covering the entire trilogy and beyond

[@kodan7879]

In defense of Kai Leng using a sword. In Mass Effect 1 lore at least, but I am fairly certain this applies to the whole trilogy. Kinetic barriers cannot deflect objects that move relatively slowly, or rather, they don't so you can sit down and walk normally without the mass effect field constantly being under stress around you. Similar to the Dune a lore, by neccessity a blade can penetrate a shield that a fast moving projectile can't.

[@thatguythisguy4247]

Plus you can get normal bayonets in mass effect 3 Also high end shields like what the shadow broker used can be punched through

[@ZShogan]

Your comparison to Dune doesn't work because this isn't a universe where personal shields have advanced to the point where small arms are useless against them. This is still a universe where guns rule the battlefield. We see this throughout the game with Cerberus Phantoms, who can easily be gunned down before getting within stabbing distance of you, even on the highest difficulties. Unless they have Cerberus troops with guns laying down suppressive fire, they'll never touch you. The only way Kai Leng and the Phantoms are ever able to gain the upper hand is through support by people with guns, plot armor, Shepard and company's cutscene incompetence, or a combination of these three.

[@TheAngryXenite]

​@@ZShoganThe issue with Kai Leng is that he's using a blade as a weapon for firefights. As a tool of assassination, where the target doesn't know you're there, it could work even against people with powerful barriers. Using it to charge down people who are specifically gunning for you is peak stupidity.

[@crypto66]

Makes sense, especially combined with what someone else said about normal phantoms; they use swords AND guns while openly facing you, while he prefers to sneak up on his targets. Outside Thessia, anyway.

[@kimberlywolfenheart4275]

Another issue is it felt like the writers expected us to automatically accept Kai Leng as a "Asian martial artist badass" stereotype when, since we've seen plenty of Asian martial artist badasses before, it means that Kai Leng would have had to somehow been unique and interesting to stand out. Also, the fact that he chose to use an archaic weapon should have *scared* us. It should have meant that he was so skilled and confident in the use of a regular sword against high tech, making him one of the most skilled fighters in the galaxy, but it never once felt that way.

[@DarkLordDiablos]

If Kai Leng had been written like that, it would have made him so much better and possibly made him one of the best Boss characters in a videogame. Not to mention would have given Anderson more dialogue when he hears his name. Also Miranda wouldn't have called him a slippery bastard and would have genuinely been worried.

[@Mannimarco_King_of_Worms]

Kai Leng is the most edgiest character i have ever seen. When i was 13, i used to write an Assassin's Creed fanfiction, and even my edgy Marty Stew russian assassin from XVII century was somehow less edgy then him. Hell, even Shadow from Sonic is less edgy.

[@dekudude8888]

Probably because both Shadow and your OC do more than just show up to be a problem lol

[@coleoconnor834]

I feel like they should’ve replaced Kai leng with whoever you didn’t save in the first game. Either Ashley or Kaiden. Just make them masked and a mystery for the most part of the game.

[@pikmonwolf]

Winter Soldier style

[@djrevenantz793]

@@pikmonwolf ironically there is a mod for that kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZmSuYZWlh99jh9U kzbin.info/www/bejne/b2KwY56uoptmr6s

[@melyncholic]

this would be so much better and it could kill 2 birds with one stone, let's say that they appear very early into the story and are immediately revealed as a corrupted version of your dead companion who appears to hate shepard for what they did, and shepherd is able to barely escape. Then you could have a much better kai leng and the terrible dream sequences could be changed to shepards grief over the death over their friend. Just a small idea

[@coleoconnor834]

@@melyncholic shit man, I didn’t even think of the dream sequences. That would impact the bathroom scene too in a much more significant way. I think it would also be cool to see the various comments your companions would have about the reveal. Great thinking

[@heramaaroricon4738]

@@melyncholic I am gonna animate this in a few years.

[@TheDoctorOfThrills]

I hadnt thought of the Jacob headcanon and now im tossing it around in my mind. Jacob is a biotic, and his power was Barrier, so it makes sense to have a reaper-augmented barrier become an everything-proof-shield. His noted problem with Thane becomes personal, as does his betrayal. It might seem like he was brainwashed but it gets revealed that he got augmented willingly. When Miranda left Cerberus, Jacob didnt. That makes the final line about avenging Thane feel even more personal, since Thane was intensely loyal to you to the bitter end, and Jacob is willing to throw everything away.

[@alexanderlambrecht5786]

Honestly I think one of the biggest issues with Kai Leng is that he really isn't developed at all. If Bioware spent more time building the adversarial relationship with Leng, establishing who he is and why we should hate him, I think he would be remembered far more fondly. The problem is, the shitty little mall ninja pops up out of nowhere, shows up at a peak emotional moments without us having any real connection to him. Because there's no development it feels like Bioware is saying "here's your dark reflection, fear him" without it being deserved, and he's just obnoxious.

[@ragingfred]

His plot armor is so thick it's immersion breaking. Every time he appears I don't feel like the bad-ass Commander Shepard I feel like a B list actor on set in a shitty 2 dollar action film. My headcannon is that his reaper indoctrination tech makes everyone around him act stupid, including himself.

[@pikmonwolf]

"Hit em with the stupid ray, Leng!"

[@byronstier7438]

His plot armor isn't really that bad. In cutscenes the strength of things makes no sense. Krogan die in 1 pistol shot, 1 punch knocks out everything. Kai leng maintained an advantageous position behind the councilor, and her invisibility didn't do anything. No plot armor there. Thane needs to get close to shut down Leng's mobility, otherwise he can hop around and get a clear shot at the councilor. He is also buying time for the councilor to get into a better protected position, which snuffs out the assassination attempt. As for the shield on the car ride, that's not plot armor at all, biotics can definitely do that, and he is meant to be augmented by reaper tech, of course a pistol isn't going to take him down. He also runs away from bailey because there's nothing left for him to do. C-Sec has regained control, the council is safe... He has nothing left to do. As for the gunship, the rockets were targeting specific areas of the building to give him an easy direct path whilst suppressing shepard.

[@microqueen69]

@@byronstier7438 A badass showed up between shepard and their objective, they would just attack and kill it anyway. It doesn't make Leng any less of a p*ssy.

[@byronstier7438]

@@microqueen69 what are you even talking about? Your problem with Leng is because Shepard didn't insta win?

[@microqueen69]

@@byronstier7438 When oh when do you insta win as shepard? Never. You have to work for it. Leng chickens out as soon as it's clear things didn't go exactly as planned. What are YOU even talking about?

[@hilotakenaka]

Kai Leng looks like he’s Jetstream Sam wearing Raiden’s armour, but with the personality of Infinite from Sonic Forces

[@NostalgicGamerRickOShay]

6:15 This is the ONE true reason why Liara is showhorned into the Thessia mission, despite her never displaying any real emotional connection to the planet before; Kai Leng needed someone light enough to throw.

[@mori6434]

Really? I though it was so she could have a random little freakout over the Asari being reaperized while Shepard and Garrus mow down husks and marauders.

[@aprinnyonbreak1290]

Can you imagine if you just needed "A Biotic" for the role, and you picked Wrex?

[@genericname2747]

@@aprinnyonbreak1290 Wrex would headbutt him, and fracture Kai Lengs entire skull.

[@sev1120]

​@@aprinnyonbreak1290 if Wrex was there, he'd have snapped Kai Leng in half like a twig. Hell, I'll even say JACOB could beat Kai Leng. JACOB

[@LAZERAK47V2]

They also really did Liara dirty with her dialogue and writing in Thessia. Especially her line about "how the Alliance can spring for air support next time." Oh, I'm sorry Liara. Our air force is currently busy fighting the Reapers on Earth while our population is being decimated because THE ASARI DECIDED TO BAIL ON US! The species that always talked a big game about cooperation and working together not only bailed on Earth, they also refused to get involved with the Krogan because the Asari couldn't solve that problem, so clearly NOBODY can. And then they decide to finally help out only once their homeworld is under threat, only for us to find out that they were in breach of a galactic law THEY THEMSELVES MADE. Seriously, FUCK the Asari. Say what you want about Ashley Williams, but she was ABSOLUTELY RIGHT about them in Mass Effect 1.

[@rdraken]

An interesting idea for his "everything proof shield" make the reason he uses a physical sword mean something. Like it is so advanced that he can't attack you with ranged stuff while it is active thus he keeps the sword to cover that weakness when he uses it. They could even use something like Thane using a physical knife in the fight where he dies to give you an answer to that shield and have either an Omniblade upgrade to deal with that or even using said knife yourself to kill Kai Leng. Would add to the "that was for thane" line if you beat him with the same knife.

[@TammoKorsai]

That's an excellent idea!

[@dastalinstarblade4618]

Kai Leng is actually Hannah Shepard, and she's VERY disappointed that you haven't tried to call her more often!

[@counter.123]

I feel like most of the problems with Kai Lang also apply to Cerberus in ME3; cartoonishly evil, super OP for no reason, and overall boring and undercooked. Cerberus in general should have taken a backseat in ME3, with maybe one chapter focusing on them (kinda like the geth). The whole point of Cerberus is that they were this super secret rogue black ops organization that people knew nothing about, who worked in the shadows. Then they just became a generic evil empire who somehow rival all other council races. What happened to them kinda reminds me of what Bethesda did to the Brotherhood of Steel, turning them from weird, xenophobic technohorders to a major military force throughout the series. Maybe Kai Lang would’ve been better as a sneaky assassin character or something rather than a generic soldier with a sword (you’re gonna assassinate a major politician by walking up to his face? Really?), going in line with old Cerberus ideals, but even then, Cerberus overall just can’t be saved. Still, respect to Bioware though, I think they did the best they could with the small amount of time they were given for this game. Edit: It makes sense that Cerberus was in the game; video games need a wide variety of enemies to fight to be interesting, and only fighting reaper forces would be repetitive after a while. I just wish the main humanoid faction was more fleshed out. Like I said before, Bioware did the best they could and the game overall is still amazing story-wise (aside from the original endings).

[@pikmonwolf]

I don't personally mind Cerberus in 3. The problem with Reapers is that the second there's a single reaper troop in an area, it's lost. So they needed some enemy for missions in locations that haven't fallen yet.

[@the_corvid97]

@@pikmonwolf I think a way they could have satisfied the problem you listed is to replace Cerberus with another indoctrinated enemy. For example imagine if on Sur'Kesh you had to fight off indoctrinated STG agents.

[@khoavo510]

@lonely shadow even if the original me3 was supposed to be whether your shep choose cerberus or alliance, me2 still felt like a side game or an intermission before the finale that is ME3 because of the main overarching threat not being the reapers themselves but the collectors. ME1 was about the reapers and their inevitable invasion and ME3 being the invasion of the reapers while ME2 was meandering about with the collectors. Although saying that ME2 still has a place as a middle story because it's the relationship building part of the story

[@romxxii]

TBF Shepard hands them an entire Collector base (or the scraps of one) in ME2, so the big evil upgrade has _some_ logic to it. They get Reaper tech implants, they all get indoctrinated, so now they're operating not from the shadows as they were wont to do, but out in the open because fucking up _your_ plans is paramount to the Reaper cause. And to give them credit, I believe the implication during Priority: Mars was that you walked in on a clandestine operation. I mean clandestine in the sense that they were supposed to wipe out the base before anyone else got there, not that they were ninja-sneaking their way through the base. IIRC they effectively cut off comms to and from the station, so nobody could radio for help.

[@romxxii]

@@the_corvid97 you kind of already fight of Reaperized soldiers. Cannibals are huskified Batarians. Marauders are turians. Brutes are krogans with turian heads slapped on. Banshees are Ardat Yakshi. Ravagers are rachni. Plus, there's the Geth who go back to following the Reapers after the Quarians fuck them over, _again._ And we already have an in-game reason for Cerberus to be indoctrinated: they have a Collector base.

[@SpectreSaunders]

A way to improve Kai Leng could be to make them a character we (Shepard) have failed in the past with our actions. Maybe swapping him out with the Virmire sacrifice (Ashley/Kaiden) or even Jenkins. Have it so after their brush with death, Cerberus either saved them or experimented on them with Reaper tech to create their own soldier, which could be tied back into the development of Lazarus & the Cerberus husks, along with giving them more history with Shepard.

[@patrickschulz2193]

Far as I know, mods to those effects are in fact presently in development.

[@missmorbid1439]

I like the idea, but Ashley or Kaiden was completely vaporized by the nuke, there’s nothing for Cerberus to experiment on. I doubt many players even remember Jenkins, and he wasn’t important enough to the narrative for it to make sense. I like the idea of having it be someone Shepard failed in the past, but I can’t think of anyone who is both guaranteed to die/get fucked over and has a personal connection with Shepard. I think it would have been better if at least one person was guaranteed to die in the suicide mission of ME2, and whoever it was becomes “Kai Leng”, although they might have the same problem as Ashley/Kaiden.

[@FastForwardPlans]

@@missmorbid1439 Other then the Ashley/Kaiden thing, there are plenty of people shepherd will always screw over or fail to save throughout 1 and 2 who are named. In story telling its perfectly acceptable for a side character from a past event to become much more important later on. Though if you want more memorable characters, the thorian is a giant plant monster, implied to have expanded a vast distance. Yet we fairly easily killed it. It was one of the first things to hint at how trivial mind control really is in the mass effect universe if you start with that planet, it was such a old and powerful thing, yet we so easily killed it. I would have brought it back in 3, maybe under Cerberus's influence as a way to help explain how they could very quickly take over whole planets. It could also easily be used as a tool for story locked failures that don't feel as contrived as the ones Kai Leng is attached to. It could create consequences minor (as in, in that forces tab), or side story related for the survivors if your character chose to not kill anyone.

[@CutDownTheSun]

@@missmorbid1439 Conrad 😂

[@thatbloomer5642]

Or how about Nihlus? Cerberus, a pro-human group should care less about experimenting on turian. Especially since Sovereign's attack on the Citadel was in part of Saren's doing, another turian. Given that the Reapers are still a mystery at this point, it makes sense for Cerberus or TIM to believe there's something of value within Saren, his species could be one of them. All that and the fact that Nihlus was a Spectre agent. Logically, his death should be already well covered up by the Council without Cerberus interference. I mean, we all know how well they brushed off Shepard's "death".

[@gearreadyforwar1545]

For me I think it would be cool if he was connected to Shepard in a backstory way like if you chose Sole survivor:Kai leng was a Cerberus spy from the start and he was in your squad they led you all in a trap.that’s why when you would see him in mass effect 3 Shepard would have a reason to hate him (more) and why leng thinks he’s better than you knowing that he killed a entire squad without the alliance or you knowing. Ruthless:on ruthless they especially say Shepard was heartless person sending people to die without a care about others what if Kai leng was a soldier under Shepard’s command and on the last battle of the Batarian colony Kai leng felt hatred over Shepard for making him feel expendable so when the fight was over Kai would join Cerberus to get revenge over Shepard which would make him have a actual reason to hate Shepard (also if you’re going for a paragon route but you chose ruthless you can have options on saying sorry to him or make him know that you’re not that type of person anymore which in my opinion would give greater story telling to ruthless having the options of forgiveness and have the player feel like there are more choices then going complete renegade options. War hero:Shepard and Kai would both be defending the colony from batarians when the battle was over only Shepard would get the credit and Kai not being mentioned would give him a jealous outlook over Shepard making him join Cerberus to get back at Shepard making them feel like equals because of only two of them protecting the colony give a feeling that there both equally skilled. Ps:hi I know this is really long post for that I’m sorry but if you do read this I thank you.

[@pikmonwolf]

Super cool idea. Sadly by 3 they'd basically abandoned the backgrounds. But having a villain specifically tied to you like that would've been so cool. 1 has a few but only for single missions.

[@Reddotzebra]

Why did you have to go and write this? I was trying to forget about how bad ME3 was with the story and just focus on gameplay... But you're right, they could have made this so good, and they just didn't. I love the idea of Kai having a reason to hate Shepard because at that point his gloating and crybaby attitude at least makes a little more sense. I'm sad now...

[@evanboll4651]

Or it could, say, tie into my headcanon for my no-romance playthrough's and Kai Leng was the one who butchered Shepard's spouse and child while they were on a mission prior to ME1.

[@Darkcur]

@@pikmonwolf they only background thing they kept was momma shepherd, which is pretty awesome.

[@Darkcur]

Honestly this could've been the email Leng sent, explaining why he hates shep instead of gloating.

[@Dredgen_Wrath]

A perfect example of why the mod “Shut Up Kai Leng” is forever on my mod list.

[@derokdeathaxe6984]

i'm doing a re-run of the whole saga and i'm laughing at the Kai Leng scene, because my Shepard in the cutscenes (so far) is using the Scorpion(that gun that shots sticky mini-bombs) and honestly it's the ultimate proof that Kai Leng got saved by the plot...

[@Vladt495]

There' a moment in the Phantom Menace in which Obi-wan is cut off from helping his master defeat Maul by a force field. He has to watch the battle helplessly, unable to participate. I would have liked to have seen more of that with Shepard's squad mates. He establishes himself as skilled by kicking around the people you care about and fight beside. Perhaps have Ash/Kaiden get injured by him at the start of the game (thus establishing him as a threat earlier). Ultimately, I think it is more interesting to have an adversary know when he is outmatched and retreat as needed. He should have won by isolating targets and taking them one at a time.

[@JokeCubed]

That makes sense. It would tie in with his "ninja" aesthetic and use of a sword.

[@justsomedangerbigfootwithweb]

So like Clone wars 2003 Grevious?

[@aprinnyonbreak1290]

I'd kinda like the reverse of that. Running with the scenerio where Kai Leng has super special armor and can only be beaten in melee, Shepherd being stuck in melee with him, while a couple squad mates actually good in melee are trying to figure out how to get to help. Wrex and Grunt would be obvious, but, I dunno.

[@onemoreminute0543]

Yeah that's a good idea, he could have been more like Maul in TPM. A silent but deadly enforcer who proves themselves your equal in combat and is a serious threat to overcome due to the personal blows he strikes. None of this cringe ass 'tHe lEgEnD oF sHePaRd mUsT bE rEwRiTtEn'

[@madbrosheo1514]

When Kai Leng was introduced in the story, I was so pissed at the lack of control I was given in that moment. He just walks up slowly to the salarian (because Thane died in my playthrough) and kills them. And Shepard just sits there twiddling her thumbs. I actually quit the game at that moment because it was clear to me that this game wasn’t interested in being an rpg.

[@pikmonwolf]

I honestly really like, but damn does this clown drag it down.

[@grzegorzantczak3775]

On the contrary. "Precious" villain or "MG character as a villain" is a well established RPG trope. It's considered bad for good reason so I understand your frustration.

[@madbrosheo1514]

@@grzegorzantczak3775 Dang, well you got me there ha ha.

[@xyreniaofcthrayn1195]

Yeah mass effect went from an RPG set in space with guns to a semi rpg with action elements with guns and finally went dead space 3 action adventure shooter with slight rpg elements.

[@docdamnij]

I had that moment after the Thessia mission. I told my friends that if they ever pulled such crap as a GM in our RPG sessions I will simply leave the table. Me and my friends luckily share the same sentiment in that regard. As much as i disklike the ending(s) of ME3, Kai Lang annoyed me more. What made it even worse was the moping of Shepard in the debriefing. "Boohoo, I failed". No shep, you did not. You completely rocked up until the point where the script writers cheated you out off an easy victory. Of course I continued playing a few days later after finding out, that he doesn't get much screen time after that point. Luckily KL is not that important to the game over all.

[@finnish_tsuhna9576]

I would add that the game handles the whole "assassin" and "stealth" in a dumb way. Like, dude has silent sword, he has cloak device, just sneak up on people, slit their throats and haul ass but noooo we need edgy, no-brain straight-up fight because reasons. Could´ve been a better fight if you had to move in a arena-type section with narrow corridors, doorways and the like, having to stay alert and react quickly when he jumps from the shadows to strike at you, then retaliate before he disappears again. But that´s just how I´d like it.

[@pikmonwolf]

Are you telling me angry shouting and rushing right at people isn't sneaky?!

[@finnish_tsuhna9576]

@@pikmonwolf only if you scream "STEALTH!" while doing it:D

[@christineherrmann205]

Honestly would make sense for him to have a cloak.

[@christineherrmann205]

@@finnish_tsuhna9576 🤣 or hold his weapon over his head. Hey, works in LARP.

[@Hatfright]

- Surpise attack! - Sokka, it's not a surprise attack if you scream about it. or something like that, can't remember =(

[@theswedishdude1]

i hare Kai Lang, he's such a "my character is better then your character, he's a space ninja, he can turn invisible, he's super strong in a fight, can easily take down the main character and is just so cool. also all the girls love him and want to kiss him.... and he looks like me" it's just so unearned, all other characters badassness feel earned but never his. wish they had instead done the clone story of the citadel DLC, if Cerberus had a masked operative that was elite and always seems to be just as strong or even stronger then Shepard then is later revealed to be his clone it would be a lot better, is it silly? sure but it's a hell of a lot better then Kai Lang.

[@sigmamalegrindset132]

wow that could had been a great idea

[@obliviouslich1722]

There is a mod that put a full mask on Kai Leng and make him silence. His character become x300% more badass, as that TIM's silent, barely human, attack dog.

[@marukouga135]

I know for a FACT my Shepherd was packing more than enough firepower, excluding actual powers, to annihilate whatever biotic field Kai Lang could ever hope to hold up, so I have no idea why the game makes it to where your guns are suddenly pea shooters.

[@nomeruim1957]

This trilogy's guns are either the most powerful thing on existence or they're a 19th century gun, they either one shot a krogan and a collector, or they fucking suck. in the cutscenes i mean

[@DarkLordDiablos]

Imagine the Thessia battle if you had the Cain. I'd love to see how Bioware would have got around that one.

[@thedarkdojo5115]

And here I thought Bioware was all about player choice, and agency... Seems like that was a lie...

[@Jedi_Spartan]

7:24 I tried this today and the most annoying thing is that he STILL trash talks Shepard while being ragdolled across the room! Also I somehow froze him in midair at some point.

[@NostalgicGamerRickOShay]

This is why I am one of many people who hated how Bioware WASTED awesome characters like Tela Vasir.

[@artemisfowldragon]

*lying on floor, slightly muffled* "you're stronger now... good."

[@paulheenan9098]

You definitely hit the nail on the head with the game trying to make him out as a fearsome boogie man while also making him so laughably incompetent. How are you supposed to take him seriously as a threat when a drell with a crippling lung disorder beats him in hand to hand combat without breaking a sweat?

[@pikmonwolf]

Right? I'm pretty sure even Conrad Verner could beat Leng-brain Shepard.

[@paulheenan9098]

@@pikmonwolf I was actually just thinking that Shepard's clone would have been interesting in Kai Leng's place. (because let's be honest, only Shepard can defeat Shepard) In seriousness though, the clone's dialogue about them being the "true" Shepard (i.e, what TIM believes Shepard to be) without all the "emotional baggage" distracting them would fit the main plot perfectly and it could play into the underlying plotline of people not trusting Shepard due to their past with what many consider a pro human terrorist group. Imagine the angry confusion NPCs would feel at "Shepard" attacking the Citadel with Cerberus, only to see the real Shepard arriving and repelling the assault. (Would also give Kaiden/Ashley a valid reason not to trust you rather than just taking Udina's word for it)

[@danitiwa]

@@pikmonwolf Conrad Werner is Kai Leng would have been a much more legendary reveal. Imagine if Shepard dismissing Werner made him so mad he actually by some miracle trained himself into a badass capable of rivaling Shepard. Imagine if he had time traveled to have the time to master the sword? Then the whole lameass but still great in combat thing would have more meat to it. You would also potentially feel more sympathy for his lame shit, and feel all kinds of weird emotions when you kill him. I would love a character that goes from a joke to an actual threat because you told him he can’t do something, or made fun of his enthusiasm/dreaming.

[@thomasraines1396]

He sounds like Micah from Red Dead Redemption 2.

[@LoserManic]

Personally, I think it would've been interesting to have Jacob be Kai Leng. You already know his backstory (a very poor one but still) and he's already pretty restricted on his feelings for the most part so that fits pretty well. And it would've been a very interesting romance twist than him cheating on you. And it sort of makes sense, given the fact that in between Mass Effect 2 and 3, Miranda, the one person more dedicated to Cerberus, leaves the company, and yet you rescue Jacob who worked in a Cerberus facility. So it would make sense for the Illusive Man to grab Jacob for his needs before Jacob could turn a blind eye since Miranda left. And it would make all the encounters with him more personal to Shepard because you've fought alongside him. The only downside to this whole thing is, i think it would make Jacob way more difficult to deal with in Mass Effect 2 because you know what's gonna happen. I guess Kai Leng could be a back up to Jacob. If Jacob survives the suicide mission, he becomes the Assassin. If he dies, you get Kai Leng. And there would also have to be MAJOR changes for Jacob, that would seem a bit excessive.

[@CYB3R2K]

The part when he called me out saying "You suck Shepard, and you're gay!" Sold me on the character.

[@AG26498]

It would have been so cool if Kai leng was a squadmate in Mass Effect 2. Where if you chose to destroy the Collector base he would abandon your squad for example.

[@pikmonwolf]

Would've been a great contrast to Miranda loyally standing by you.

[@christineherrmann205]

At least it _might_ explain why Shepard hesitates to kill them

[@AG26498]

@@christineherrmann205 exactly.

[@cainyourkids]

Ugh this. Imagine Kai Leng replacing Jacob in ME2. Miranda and Kai Leng would start coming off as seemingly pro-Cerberus, yet there seems to be some power tensions between the two (Miranda being the director of the Lazarus Project vs Kai Leng being TIM's representative); Shepard slowly manages to veer Miranda away from being pro-Cerberus and into the morally-grey yet fiercely loyal character we know her as, while Kai Leng grows more and more critical and disillusioned with you as the events and narrative of ME2 goes by (he approves of more renegade approaches and dislikes paragon options, especially when they involve turning your allies into friends vis a vis making them loyal). And even going renegade will still won't be enough to have him join you at the end. He'll remark that you'd fit right in with Cerberus, and that both of you aren't so different after all, but his loyalties are with TIM and not to you.

[@cartoonking1789]

@@cainyourkids oh it was right there! It would have been so perfect!

[@KaitoGillscale]

If I was going to make Kai Leng work, I’d have made him a deadly ally in 2. Someone who either hates aliens or the alliance and is consistently partnering up on the same mission as Sheppard. You’d constantly see his handiwork on missions…his sword wounds all over the enemies you’d be facing. You could use renegade dialogue when he chimes in to clear out some enemies, only to find their eyes gouged out or their legs shredded leaving a blood trail to the door you enter from before expiring. It would be clear you can’t trust him…that you can’t rely on him not to “have fun” with the prey you send him against…but it’s efficiency and a renegade Shepard might employ him on a tactical level. If he uploads the mission at all cost, we could retcon it so he planted the Turian distress signal on the reaper mid game because he knew you had the firepower to do what needed doing. Hell, we could add him to the ship in 2 like Jessica Chobot in 3, and have him sulk around the ship hiding in the corners of the map…always somewhere else. If you manage to spot him, he compliments your eyes…and if you call him out on his brutality he’s the only crew member who never wavers or loses to your logic. He could be a real antihero to Shepard…and the MOMENT you hear about him in 3 being used against you, it would send a chill down your spine. Renegade Shepard’s would see Kai Leng as a ruthless assassin intent on killing you…and Paragon Shepard would see him as a monster who’s brutality you could never reign in. Maybe you feel regret…or disgust that he turned out that way. Maybe you save his life in 2 when he bites off more than he can chew so moments before he finishes you off on Thessia he pauses…remembers you saved his life…and just turns to leave. We treat him like he’s a loser in 3 because he comes off like an edgy teenager who just pops up in 3 and wrecks shit…kills people we love without any buildup…and is so much of a loser that he feels the need to mock you over email like an angry internet troll. If we knew him and fought alongside him while working for cerberus in 2…I don’t think we’d have seen him like this.

[@pikmonwolf]

Exactly. Just, literally any build up at all. If they couldn't do it in 2, at least hint at him in 3 earlier on. Show scientists on mars brutalized horribly.

[@guifire9747]

in ME2 you can recruit Morinth (if you're a psycho ) so having a bloodthirsty assassin would not be completely out of character for a psycho shep (then again, that's the same problem with the impossibility to actually agreeing with the Illusive man's POV during the 3rd game, which make chosing the control ending completely hypocritical since we basically said the opposite the entire game, a shame since it's arguably the best ending)

[@decimation9780]

@@guifire9747 But it looks like it’s not the canon ending.

[@guifire9747]

@@decimation9780 Don't think there is a canon one (yet at least) but it's sure it wouldn't be control is there was one (synthesis would be the most believable imo, that third way that only Shep could do, and honestly i didn't made peace between the Geth and Quarians to see the former wiped out 2 days later, that would be pointless) But my point still stand, Shep become basically a god while keeping his memories, the relay are rebuilt thanks to that, no race sacrificed, peace is here (since Shep have a reaper fleet, peace is the only option), and considering their level of technology, he could even do a new body like Cerberus did to hang with others if he was so inclined, there are literally no downside The Illusive Man was right that it was the best conclusion, he was just wrong that it wouldn't be the best with IM commanding the reaper, the fact we can't agree with him (while disagreeing with his methods) still bother me in a game where you can be a full psycho who shot your own friend in the back

[@decimation9780]

@@guifire9747 Destroy is looking to be the canon ending based on current information on ME4. Because while yes, synthetics were shut down, it doesn’t mean they’re gone forever. The Normandy was able to be repaired after the Destroy ending, and the Geth would likely have some form of countermeasure to something that would wipe out synthetic life, due to their war against the Quarians. Destroy is also the only ending where Shepard lives, and if they plan on doing another mainline Mass Effect game, they have to have Shepard, because anyone else would be a slap in the face and leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth. Shepard also becomes a machine in the Control ending, and while he may retain his memories, he has no soul, feeling, or empathy. He’s just the Starchild without the millions of years of constant work, given time he’ll throw the Reapers back at the galaxy to wipe it of advanced life and nothing will have changed. Not only would Destroy make the most sense lorewise because of who Shepard is, but he would also sacrifice the Geth if it meant that the Reapers would never be a threat again, because while it might be a tough choice, the Quarians could recreate the Geth from scratch, making them individuals instead of VI slaves. And after playing the previous Mass Effect games, most people would go for the Destroy ending anyways because of the constant galactic genocide that the Reapers have committed. And by committing to the Destroy ending, the Starchild AI on the Citadel gets wiped as well, as it was the origin point, and took the brunt of the blast as a result. Besides, Control is what the Illusive man wanted, but Shepard knew that it wasn’t the right call. Destroy also makes sense because why make another ME game if Shepard the AI can just throw the Reapers at any threat that pops up? What would be the point? If the Reapers are dead, new threats could pop up and still be an issue because while tech has most likely been improved by using the salvaged Reaper technology, it wouldn’t turn entire races into godly entities, but bo5 weapons technology as well as quality of life improvements would be made thank to it. Besides, fans are likely tired of fighting the Reapers anyway, so Destroy would just make the most sense both from a lore perspective, as well as a game design perspective.

[@yokiryuchan7655]

What I don't understand is why even fight Shepard on Thessia if he was going to use the gunship to destroy the temple anyway? Why not just do that from the beginning? Why does he put his sword down and attack Shepard's squadmates in hand to hand? That whole fight on Thessia was stupid and made NO SENSE.

[@nenuzhniychuy7957]

Good point on "Story writing is hard" and so on, except there is one LITTLE detail. All of that you described (how to fix KL I mean) was done. By BioWare themselves. In another game. Inquisition. Samson IS Kai Leng but in another setting. And Samson works. So they just shat themselves with that cyborg homeboy.

[@pikmonwolf]

Been a minute since I did the mage route in Inquisition, but from what I remember that's actually a good point about Samson lol.

[@NataliaNeeSama]

Clone Shepard is actually a better Kai Leng than Kai Leng is. It is a better rival, better villain, a better foil, and the battle actually makes sense and is more fun to play (Clone Shepard uses Shepard's skills, and even use Medigel to revive Brooks if she is down). I know Clone Shepard is designed to the campy Citadel DLC, but honestly, I take Clone Shepard more seriously as a threat than Kai Leng.

[@Dragon_Lair]

Clone Shepard also makes sense because his/her existence is made possible and is even plausible in Mass Effect 2, where Shepard is asking Jacob if cloning was involved in his/her revival. Right in the tutorial. A clone would also have perfect genetics so the body wouldn't reject any needed organs if a transplant was needed.

[@pastlesandfish]

I felt he was such a random addition. He just leapt onto my shuttle and I was like "who the hell is this dude?" I thought there'd be some reveal about him being connected to the past of one of the squadmates. But nope, he was just a random assassin hired by Cerberus. Ended up hating him, especially those damn rechargeable shields of his! I was playing as mostly paragon but I took great pleasure in renegade killing this dude.

[@closeenough3606]

Kei leng killed Aria’s hidden daughter in the books and for some reason they don’t mention that in game at all! Imagine if in the Omega DLC that’s brought up and is the reason why Aria wants Cerberus dead so badly. Honestly just make him succeed without some plot armor bullshit or see some behind the scenes of him planning

[@quesocoatl21]

What? When was this? What book?

[@2bdaqueen268]

Aria had a daughter????

[@davidnavarro4821]

@@2bdaqueen268Yup. It’s in one of the Mass Effect novel, Retribution.

[@nathanielrodriguez1873]

The Jacob Taylor as the villain thing would have been such a good twist, similar to what happened with Solas. BioWare rarely has a prominent companion betray you like that, so it would have been nice to add to the hopelessness of ME: 3 by losing a companion to the reapers. Also, would have made all his bad advice in ME: 2 make sense.

[@politickz6591]

Kai Leng feels like they had approximately one good story beat: the part where he kills your friends and then you kill him, and then decided put absolutely no effort into the rest of the character because they thought that was enough.

[@Dani-xz1uw]

Someone like Jacob would be the perfect replacement really. Instead of a lame Ninja wannabe, he'd be a former alliance soldier or even officer who Shepard respects but also pities as Cerberus has turned him into an indoctrinated hybrid like Saren. You'd not only be fighting to stop him, but to also end his suffering. The squadmate lost in Virmire would fit too if they hadn't been obliterated by a fucking nuke.

[@jillgrimwater3726]

As someone who has read the books, I can tell you that they don't help with his character at all. It's just more of him being the same way that he is in the game; with the only details being he has a girlfriend in the comics he keeps blaming for his failures, and he enjoys killing/boasting when his victims are helpless

[@pikmonwolf]

Hey he also eats cereal like a badass renegade :P

[@jillgrimwater3726]

@@pikmonwolf BlastOhs are a part of every great breakfast

[@silentspartan913]

Honestly, I think Kai Leng should’ve switched places with the clone as a final boss. Cause at least the clone gave a more worthy challenge than the embarrassment that was Kai Leng.

[@GuyWhoWatchesStuff]

The clone actually killed me a few times

[@tcmugutc01]

​@@GuyWhoWatchesStuff Clone is a wuss even in legendary. But he sometimes have a tactic to flank you and force you to melee fight , during that his team throws grenades. You cant dodge it because youre locked. I only died there once after that ive never made the same mistake.

[@GuyWhoWatchesStuff]

@Muharrem özer Ya but at least I had to put some effort into killing the clone

[@adamloga3788]

Also, depending on your class, fighting the clone can look freaking awesome. During my Sentinel Playthrough, we were clashing Charges and Novas and it looked amazing.

[@anderson4623]

I always hold a strong opinion in regarding the lore outside of the game: if you can't be bother to show it in the game, I won't be bother to read up on it outside of the game. If the game fail to capture my interest in a character, why do you think I am going to bother looking for a comic or novel to read up on it later ? This has become a thing that game companies really like to do with how WoW has like a dozens books that exist outside of the game and if you didn't bother reading them up, well tough luck understanding their already convoluted story.

[@pikmonwolf]

Indeed. I don't think there's any problem building onto stuff with outside sources, like with Revelation, but making it mandatory is super annoying.

[@CidGuerreiro1234]

It's propably a deliberate decision, fragmenting the story in order to push you into buying more stuff to piece it all together. It's even worse than just innocent incompetence.

[@boundc.napalm3084]

Change suggestion that is 11 months late: Replace his metal blade with energy sword that throws projectiles and stuff, also uses his energy shield. This way he always holds the tech advantage. Turn all scenes where he trounces Shepherd into boss fights but heavily imply that he's just better by him basically being bullshit in fights, with losing or "winning" by reducing his health to a certain amount ultimately resulting in the same thing.

[@pikmonwolf]

Forced loss fights are always tricky to get right, but they'd definitely be better than what we have now.

[@Definitly-not-Omegon]

Or replace his blade with a High Frequency Blade, so that it makes more sense and is an actual Threat.

[@volrogue]

I don't think I've ever 😐 so hard when a character shows up

[@legateelizabeth]

I'm always perplexed why Kai Leng wasn't just... Miranda. She's established to be a genetically perfect human, literally custom created to do what she does, which is a great contrast with Shepherd, somebody who was kept deliberately imperfect because that's what made them human, what made them special. Miranda never had a real reason to leave Cerberus, even by the end of 2 she was still a Cerberus cheerleader and there's nothing in the games that would really indicate she'd ever stop being one. She's a spec-ops infiltration-y type, so can fit Kai Leng's role, and she's already got a skin-tight suit to give her a ninja look. Like Kai Leng she's got both biotic, technological and clear combat abilities, and we're shown how competent she was - she was almost inarguably the best squadmate of ME2, mechanically. You could even lean into that, have her leading small fire teams and giving them buffs like she gave to us a game ago. That further makes her a good antagonist to Shepherd, someone who's strength comes from being a small group because she's a good leader. Hell, give her a sword if you want. "I don't carry omnitools, too clunky, but I was taught how to fight in a half dozen different sword styles. Dad was old fashioned like that". I'd believe it, I can see her dual wielding a sword and an SMG or a pistol. Now your old friend, possibly even your old lover, is the one trying to kill you - not because she hates you, but because she genuinely believes you're wrong, she's genuinely doing what she thinks is best and really doesn't _want_ to kill any of you but values the future of the universe and her organisation over it all. It'd explain all those pauses and plot armour moments you complained about: the crew and Shepherd are all looking at someone who saved their life dozens of times, who they called friend and ally, and they hesitate, they hold back. Miranda, being both slowly indoctrinated and genuinely brainwashed by Cerberus' ideology (and maybe some genetic predisposition to that kind of thinking, if you want) has no such compunctions and doesn't hesitate or pause, giving her the upper hand above and beyond what she already has. Could even bring back the system with Saren where you could avoid fights if you had a good enough renegade/paragon score if you did her loyalty mission, and a special option if you romanced her. I'm just spitballing now though. There's so many better options than Kai Leng, I'd even have taken "It's the one who died on Virmire, Cerberus used their AI and psych profiles to bring them back, but even they're aware they're being indoctrinated and aren't a real person, oh isn't it tragic". Cyber-Revenant Ashley, make it happen past Bioware.

[@NostalgicGamerRickOShay]

Miranda got tired of TIM trying to sacrifice her for Cerberus. Interacting with the Cerberus crew in ME2 after the suicide mission makes it clear that the NPC crew are now more loyal to Shepard than to Cerberus. That's one of the many reasons why I hate ME3; my crew is gone. A crew of Alliance lapdogs has replaced them. I would much rather have a crew more loyal to me personally than a crew that is loyal to either Cerberus or the Alliance.

[@ijn4438]

@@NostalgicGamerRickOShay Honestly I'd suspect that the crew was swapped by the Alliance specifically because they were loyal to you. Even as the Alliance's golden boy/girl they probably would never entrust one of the most advanced warships in existence to a single person.

[@cousinzeke4888]

Holy fuck is that a great idea.

[@music79075]

Wish I could bookmark a comment

[@japaroads]

Much better. Also, painful. Damn.

[@SirKnasher]

I'd remove him in an instant, he literally serves no purpose and his actions could've been done by a regular squad of troops. Oh and I'd fire everyone who designed him, wrote him and approved him, fire them all, put them in the bin.

[@NostalgicGamerRickOShay]

I'd buy all of Bioware if I had a few billion dollars and a time machine.

[@appelofdoom8211]

There's the shut up Leng mod for that where he gets replaced by just a competent cerberus troop, there's no dight on Thessia and you actually get an email from asari high command

[@welkingunther5417]

Javik: Throw them out the airlock!

[@gvirusqueen3559]

They should’ve introduced Lang in ME2 or something in order to flesh him out more and give him some sort of relationship with Shep….otherwise you could literally cut him out of ME3 entirely or replace him with a generic Cerberus foot soldier and no one would notice the difference.

[@pikmonwolf]

For real. You're literally in Cerberus in 2. He could've been part of a mission you have to do.

[@Dracosian4802]

There is a PC mod that replaces him with a generic phantom, massively improved (obviously still not perfect)

[@akvelo9862]

Technically in he was introduced in me1 due to the books

[@VanillaSpooks]

Turns out a mod just released for N7 Day that replaces Kai Leng with Jacob or Miranda depending on your choices, I’m excited to try that out!

[@editorrbr2107]

Man, did ME3 ever miss Drew. Mac just cannot hold this down.

[@happyvalentine4008]

Something I've always thought might've been cool and fix two characters in one would've been to make Jacob have Kai Lang's role in ME3. His "boringness" and lack of background could've been from Cerberus programming to create a sleeper agent of sorts who, even if he didn't realize it, always had Cerberus' priorities first and foremost. So in ME3 that sleeper agent role could be revealed when he betrays Shepard after initially showing up to help the Commander in some way and with every time you defeat Jacob he's increasingly upgraded and indoctrinated. It also serves the same role as Jacob betraying a love interest female Shepard without getting to a weird semi-racist stereotype and deepens how the one character Jacob doesn't like is Thane with the Drell essentially being a mirror of Jacob's role. Its not a perfect headcanon, obviously it couldn't be with so many things fundamentally needing to change. But if Jacob's personality was planned for an eventual double agent type role he could've been one of the most interesting and compelling characters in Mass Effect if you bonded with him and Jacob has to fight between being a member of Cerberus and being a member of Shepard's family. Now where Kai Lang and Jacob separated are the worst characters in Mass Effect they could've been so much more if fused together and planned from the start. Side note: If Jacob were to have died in the Suicide Mission he could still show up in ME3 but he's basically a zombie. Your relationship doesn't matter unless you were romanced in which case Shepard could have an extra "...holy shit..." scene but otherwise he starts off fully cybernetic'd and indoctrinated cause he's basically just an upgraded husk. Alternatively Mass effect 3 already replaces a bunch of characters that get killed in ME2 with new ones so Kai Lang could've been that replacement for Jacob. [Speaking of replacements a complete this has nothing to do with anything in the video or comment but Grunt should've been a member of the ME3 squad instead of James. Potentially have James be the only character who can be in your squad or not depending on a character's death. Other than Tali and Garrus no one from ME2 returns as a squadmate and I understand since a lot of people can die but i think Bioware should've had AT LEAST ONE ME2 exclusive party member come back for the fight. If Grunt/James was the single squadmate that could be dependent on the death of a character I think it could've worked]

[@pikmonwolf]

Definitely better than how those two are now

[@happyvalentine4008]

@@pikmonwolf I posted this before I finished the video. Soon as I heard the combine Jacob and Kai Lang I just went "welp"

[@warlordofbritannia]

I swear, Kai Leng was actually made by BioWare to make fun of Weebs and/or Incels but they took it too far and accidentally made him someone you’re supposed to take seriously…

[@KopperNeoman]

"Incel" wasn't a slur back then. Nobody was even saying it.

[@Hatfright]

About the book version of him. He's not much better, tbh. He's that "cold rutheless killer who enjoys all the murder he's doing" stereotype guy with almost nothing going on for him personally. Anderson ruins his legs in 3d book, but I don't think it ever mentioned in the game, or if he wants to get revenge or something.

[@blueisasomedancer]

You can actually have a conversation with Anderson about how he shot both of Kai Leng's legs. I just had it like, two days ago lol

[@Hatfright]

@@blueisasomedancer well, was wrong, played a bit too much ago.

[@RainbowJackals]

Whoever came up with the idea of putting overpowered Samurai Jack In Mass Effect should be questioned immediately.

[@MikeP828]

The numerous amounts of times and ways Shepard or one of the squad mates could’ve killed Kai Leng in just his introductory mission alone is staggering. Like, if you’re a Vanguard or you have Liara with you during the skycar scene, we literally could’ve flayed him with our minds since his guard was down for multiple seconds. Or better yet, the squad member driving could’ve just flown up and DECAPACITATED HIM

[@artemisfowldragon]

also, why does him stabbing the car in the roof make it go down? it's not like the engine is up there

[@frostb1041]

He killed Thane, that's enough reason for me to hate him

[@catandrobbyflores]

That renegade button push at the end was the only time I went rogue on my playthrough. Totally worth it to hear Jennifer Hale go That was for thane you sob!

[@alexhussinger3550]

Having his tech be even more BS is a good idea. It would also add a great moment where, if you destroyed the Collector Base (which is just about the single most irrelevant decision in the entire game, despite being the FINAL CHOICE of ME2), he can start mocking you, saying stuff like "See Shepard? *This* is the power you passed over, so blinded by your weak heart. Its in more deserving hands now. Imagine what we're going to get from this beacon". You can go beyond that as well, since other things like an AOE shield-pop/stun/whatever that is total BS to fight against would suddenly be both in-character and dangerous. On a related note, having him say . . . anything about the Reapers would also be a nice touch, since he barely acknowledges their existence. Leaning more into the idea that Cerberus is full of people who will do anything for humanity, to the point that it is costing their humanity, also helps make them feel less cartoonishly evil. That way, he can have something like a character arc or motivation, as hes deluded himself into thinking that Cerberus has the plans to stop the reapers. "You are weak Shepard. This galaxy won't survive the Reapers playing by your rules!". His line of "We Evolve or we die, those are the options!" is pretty much his only good line of dialogue, and fits with this idea. Then in the final battle, you can knock off his face shield thing to reveal the indoctrinated eyes right before you deliver the final blow, and he dies muttering something about saving Earth.

[@pikmonwolf]

Ooh, I really love the indoctrinated eyes, would be cool to see him a truly broke and terrified husk of a man (pun intended) as he dies. Honestly all your ideas in here are pretty great, wish you'd been left in chrage of Kai Leng lol.

[@killermoth9311]

This doesn't necessarily have to do with Kei Lang, but is Kirahee just invisible the entire time when Thane is throwing hands with Lang, I think if both of them are alive they both should team up on him and Thane gets to live longer. Sorry that always bothered me.

[@NostalgicGamerRickOShay]

Exactly, if we can have both, WHY NOT HAVE BOTH. Both of them had by themselves an advantage over Kai Leng that they DIDN'T exploit.

[@dannipresto8025]

Agreed completely 💯

[@sev1120]

If we have both, let them both live as a reward, but if you only have one then they die. Kirrahe is a major in the STG. He fought Saren and his geth army, he made a nuke out of a ship drive core. He HELD THE LINE! Granted, he'd have issues working with an assassin, but he'd work with Thane, because he's not an idiot, he knows Thane is fighting Kai Leng, who in turn is trying to kill the salarian councillor. Hell, maybe have it be where Kirrahe comes with Shepard to Thane's death bed to pay his respects, because we can have it where Kai Leng uses a moment of Thane's illness making him go into a coughing fit or something to strike, and Kirrahe can't get a killing blow on Kai, but he can make it so Kai can't fight well afterwards. Have it impact future fights. It would explain why Kai is so reliant on shielding in the Thessia fight, have him have very clear cybernetics holding him together.

[@GuyWhoWatchesStuff]

Best part is he would probably not de-cloak, so Kei would just start getting punched mid fight

[@goofymax0656]

If anyone ever tried the Shut Up Leng mod, it kinda helps make him a little more threatening by making Kai Leng completely silent and his face hidden by a mask. Idk if anyone else would agree, but the whole sword thing is still silly.

[@Crazehness]

I've always said if they just made him actually a threat on Thessia in your battle, it probably would have fixed most of the issues. Part of the problem with Kai Leng is that every time you fight him it's pretty damn easy and it feels super cheap when you're cutscene'd into losing anyway. If they made the fights closer and slightly tweaked the cutscenes to show him *just barely* getting the upper hand through I don't think people would have as much of a problem with him as they do. Don't even have to change the story, just up the stakes in the player battle to bring them in line with the cutscene outcomes so it's not as jarring when you lose on Thessia.

[@donchon7580]

The "that was for Thane" moment was great though.

[@joshingle5934]

One thing that always made me laugh about Kai Leng was his report Anderson forwards you. Here I am thinking "Wow, what kind of atrocious war crime did he commit that even Anderson would warn you about him?" Turns out he killed a guy. One guy. (OK admittedly it was a Krogan, but he stabbed him in a... bar fight? While he was on leave? Doesn't exactly scream "John Wick") So we need to take him seriously for killing one Krogan and looting medals off corpses (LOL, really? That was the best Bioware could come up with? Oooooh I'm so scared he's not afraid to loot dead bodies!) How in the world is Commander Shepard, humanities best soldier, killer of thousands of people/geth/aliens, destroyer of reapers and a shit load of other badass feats EVER going to get the upper hand on him?

[@pikmonwolf]

Also like, Shepard can potentially loot an entire poor plague-ridden district in Mordin's recruitment mission lol.

[@SoulSurge]

Hate the guy myself as anyone who is loyal cuz i hate that other group of people(aliens) but in all fairness in the books he was put in prison for diplomatic reasons but after that he’s basically been wiping problems for Cerberus until Grayson and Anderson but was disappointed how they made him not even match up to how he single handedly wiped aria turian surprise attack while saving illusive man TLDR mass effect 3 had so many corners cut it feels like it was made in overtime at the circle factory…hope next dragon age isn’t the same

[@megamike15]

he also broke into anderson's apartment and ate his cereal.

[@Spartanunit5]

Make his sword have some sort of special glowing edge cyberpunk style to show it’s not a normal blade, make the shield consistently biotic or tech, and maybe show some obvious reaper tech on him (like his hand laser thing) to show he’s been enhanced

[@x0lopossum]

5:10 SO TRUE. This is the modern Halo games major problem. They bring random characters from the novels that were made after the games and accepted they players to know and care about them. 14:00 also true.

[@kabob0077]

9:34 Even Star Wars has more believable reasons for swords to be used in the setting, Vibroblades and other bladed weapons (Some coated in Lightsaber resistant materials or forged from said materials) during the Old Republic era in Legends were plentiful because of personal energy shielding rendering Blasters ineffective against some target, or against Jedi or Dark Jedi a bigger danger to the shooter than the target. Vibroblades vibrate a such a high frequency they can block Lightsabers and as a result can make a veteran swordsman a genuine threat to an inexperienced Jedi. What does Kai Leng get by comparison? A normal sword that looks like an enlarged box cutter with those blades that can be broken off when they've dulled.

[@TammoKorsai]

Even a subtle glow or distortion effect would have made the sword far less crappy to behold.

[@kabob0077]

@@TammoKorsai But instead we get Big Box Cutter as one of the lamest swords in Sci-fi, maybe even all of fiction.

[@aleccarlyle8108]

I think they should've leaned harder into the reaper tech aspect. Have him start as a shitty whiner with fancy tech and slowly become more inhuman as he gets stronger. Vonus points if they had him LOSE the first few fights and subject himself to greater upgrades out of a psychotic manchild sore loser tendency. His childish need to win driving him into intentional indoctrination for power would make him a fun foil to Saren and an absolute monster-the worst of humanity and the reapers put into one

[@dragonheart1236]

So, what you're saying is.... Have him be a parallel of Saren? I like that idea.

[@kenziekennedy4457]

He looks like discount Nightwing.

[@LegionX7N7]

There is a mod where they swap Kai Leng with Kaiden or Ashley depending on which one you left behind on virmire. I for one absolutely am in love with the idea. That not only would have made the defeat on thessia and the fight on the illusive man’s base more emotional but it actually makes a serious and significant hurdle for Shepard that is actually capable of hurting Shepard. And not to mention the attack on the citadel. A masked Cerberus soldier that says absolutely nothing and it’s revealed to be Kaiden or Ashley on thessia. That would have been a perfect way to make Shepard lose his cool and mental fortitude and make his defeat on thessia far less infuriating

[@CrematedZebra]

I always thought it would be better to either have played alongside kai leng in ME2 in a one off mission, or have Kai Leng replaced by Jacob respectively, it would make sense if he still had ties with Cerberus why he's not the most open, even after the loyalty mission. You could even spin Jacobs indoctrination as a procedure he was forced to go through following his "failure" in allowing Shepard to destroy the collector base, to stay on TIM's good side

[@dlinksky9319]

I mean watching the first half of the video I had started thinking of ways that could work to make Kai leng better and I’m not gonna lie you did it pretty well for as few changes as possible

[@JacksonWithrow82]

Kai Leng was out-thought and almost beaten by Thane who was in the final throes of a terminal illness. ME2 Thane eats Kai Leng's lunch in 3 moves. One of those moves is literally eating Kai Leng's lunch.

[@sazechs_451]

And even before Thane's obvious CQC win, he would've just taken the shot and killed Kai Leng before he even knew he was there

[@KopperNeoman]

@@sazechs_451 Yeah, it was ridiculous. The entirety of Thane vs Leng should have been "oh hey it's Kai Leng, oh hey it's Thane, oh hey it's Thane getting murked by Kai Leng." That's how you establish a monster heel. Bonus points if you cure Thane first.

[@kanakawase]

I've never seen a wider gulf between how cool a writer thought a character was and how lame that character actually ended up being.

[@RuskyVolk]

one of the many unfortunate and visible consequences of rushed production. I've heard of alternate pre development outcomes for thessia where your defeat wasn't garunteed, and these were cut for time. I'm sure there were many great ideas that suffered this same fate. I'm not even sure if a couple more million dollars and a few months would've even been enough for Bioware to focus their efforts on leng. The plot protected stereotypical bad guy -among other blatant and intentionally, or otherwise overlooked flaws- was a convenience that allowed the game to be as good as it is. I'm glad you came up with a logical solution/explanation for lengs successes through incompetence. The idea of developing a countermeasure to the previously unexpected reaper tech he wields will now be my new headcanon while forcing my way through parts of the game he's included in. still, nothing is gonna fix logic of the sword.

[@pikmonwolf]

They could've at least made it an omniblade lol.

[@RuskyVolk]

@@pikmonwolf and if they want him to be "cool" he could have a custom designed omni blade, one that looks more like a sword. but literally anything other than a metal stick.

[@fenrisvermundr2516]

You were also at one point supposed to choose between Liara or the VS there. I kind of wonder what they would've done to make that a fair choice.

[@RuskyVolk]

@@fenrisvermundr2516 I assume you've heard the same bit as me. that was the outcome where VS was actually working with leng and you could speech check them back to your team. mightve been another big geth/quarian choice with a hidden counter for all 3 games where, depending on your choices, you could save both of them.

[@ChrisClarion]

When I replayed ME with Legendary edition, I was legit confused when I saw Kai Leng because I completely forgot about this character