Mixing GRACIE JIU-JITSU with JUDO: Returning Judo to Traditional Self-Defense at KJJ! - Kama Talk

[@watch-me-fail]

I practice both Judo and GJJ. I am a more complete grappler because of it. Because of this my imagination and ability to transition is smoother.

[@porunmexicomejor1]

I'm a judo shodan, I just started to practice bjj I think is a sport base. When i try to make any nagewaza technique they just pull the guard and I pay by them rules It ok form me. If that was my only grapplig skill I think it not good for selfdefence.

[@GravisTKD]

Brown belt in judo who started formal BJJ training about 4 months ago; I can absolutely corroborate this story. As one of the "strongest" ground fighters in my judo program (can routinely tap a few of our black belts and never get submitted by anyone below black), I *struggle* to do anything more than play defense against anyone above blue belt in BJJ. Indeed, some of the blue belts at my school just have their way with me regularly. I've long since accepted that 😂 I can also echo the point about falls; many people at my BJJ school seem stiff and overly cautious about being thrown because they don't take falls well. I would love to help some of them get more relaxed, as these guys would be monsters with a bit more comfort while standing up. Cross-training is absolutely something that I would recommend, too. I see virtually no downsides to it aside from the possible time commitment and wear and tear that one has to consider (though I frankly find BJJ to be *far* less abusive on my joints than judo is... especially on my fingers, as I'm suffering from a few years of aggressive grip fighting). So in a nutshell, pretty much yes to everything in this video. Your mileage varies from school to school, but the general sentiments expressed here are right on the money (not that someone with over twice the experience I have in judo needs my endorsement).

[@dragonballjiujitsu]

Great video. What you said happened to Judo because of competition is exactly what is happening in the majority of Jiu-jitsu schools today. competition has watered BJJ down to the point of being almost useless as a martial art. Unless of course its Gracie Jiu-jitsu. The Gracies didn't invent anything but they did modify the hell of a lot. I'm glad you pointed this out.

[@isalehyan]

dragonballjiujitsu thanks, but I would put it differently. No one says that boxing or wrestling are useless because they are sports. Judo is a sport, and much of it is good for self defense as well. There are just some differences, such as dealing with strikes, that can complement the training.

[@dragonballjiujitsu]

@@isalehyan The main problem with sport BJJ is that you are practicing to beat another BJJ guy under very specific rules. It has become completely unrealistic for fighting. If BJJ was still what it was 20-30 years ago and that's how it was practiced I'd agree with you. But its not. Just two examples: These days most people who train for competition do not train against strikes. Do you think that might be important in an actual fight? Today most sport BJJ guys do not train to underhook the leg when going for an arm bar or triangle to prevent slams. Why? Because slams are not legal in competition. The unrealistic rules of competition have changed the way sport guys practice the art making it far less effective for actual fighting.

[@isalehyan]

dragonballjiujitsu I totally agree. I just wouldn’t call them “useless.” Wrestlers don’t train against strikes or chokes and armbars. But a NCAA wrestler is going to be a formidable opponent in a street fight, because of their conditioning, mentality, and technical ability. Yes, to be more effective they would need to modify their training to deal with strikes and submissions. But it’s not useless.

[@dragonballjiujitsu]

@@isalehyan Ok, I'll give you that. Not completely useless. "Better than nothing" But its sinking deeper each year. Point TKD is better than nothing I guess. Doing a set of pushups every morning and 10 burpees is better than nothing. Still a far cry from one of the most effective martial arts ever like it used to be though.

[@FranciscoEstrada1]

Thumbs up if you want to see Ryan's escape from Kesa Gatame!

[@jaygannon1095]

You do self-defense oriented jiujitsu, AND Judo at KJJ? There's no other way to put this, your school simply sounds awesome and I would train there in a heartbeat if I could. I believe tournaments and competition can be the icing on the cake but the cake itself is self defense, and I have a very special place in my heart for judo (and kesa gatame, I'm sorry LOL!) Assuming I was competent enough to actually teach such things well myself, which I'm presently not, I have thought about this many times and that is EXACTLY the focus I would want to have if I ever had my own school someday.

[@porunmexicomejor1]

I'm a judo shodan I just started bjj but 90% of the time they are on the ground do you have the same experiance?

[@taekwondomaster4609]

My original martial arts style was Judo. I took Judo for about a year and a half, then the school closed down. I was very disappointed 😞. Then I started studying Tang Soo Do. I was also cross training in BJJ as well because in my dojang BJJ was taught in the evening.

[@isalehyan]

Hey! I have a 2nd degree BB in Tang Soo Do as well. Good to know others like me.

[@taekwondomaster4609]

isalehyan TANG SOO!!

[@qazmko22]

This is truly impressive, they have a lot to teach each other.

[@mouthguardcomic]

One of my biggest regrets with martial arts is not achieving a Black belt in Judo. The academy I trained at, in the late 90s, disappeared without warning and I never achieved higher than a green belt. However, my takedowns have always been useful for BJJ and many guys note the difference in my technique even though I did not reach a high level in Judo. It is definitely worth it.

[@taekwondomaster4609]

Thank you so much professor. I learned a lot from your video. Many thanks 🙏

[@kevionrogers2605]

My first martial art I studied was Judo/Danzan Ryu under Carl Cesatari from 1992 to 1996 then when he got ill and stopped teaching I switched to Craig Kukuk who taught Gracie Jiu-Jitsu where I lived from 1996 to 1998 then when he left and Renzo Gracie took over the school with a focus on gi though I was training with him from 1998 to 2000 I joined TSK to compete at the Tiger Schulmann tournaments. Then when I moved to Georgia I trained Judo and Wrestling under Rowdy Piper. Outside of the grappling I wrestled in highschool did off season under USA wrestling and AAU. I have two black belts one in Judo and the other in Goju Ryu that incorporated Kobudo & Escrima under Victor Buddy Amato. This training gave me an understanding of & appreciation of Kata as a teaching methodology especially the weapons component in the Judo Kata.

[@deadhourgaming]

Im glad you put this video on because I started in a competition style judo club but my couch {Godan) always knew I trained judo for street which helped me out quite abit. One day I asked if he could teach the self defance aspect of judo which he did that night. 98 percent of the students would stop half way threw a technique and say to the instructor that is illegal which he laughed and said not in the street. Im training both judo and jiujitsu now and im kinda crossed on what to do. My bjj club is more sport, but there is a club where I live claiming to be the original judo its called Kano jiujitsu. Ive read a little on it but cant really find to much. Should I just search out a bjj self defance club or stay what im doing im just trying to find the alround art to do what I need to do

[@isalehyan]

innock88 hard to say without knowing what’s being taught and what you’re looking for. Just train where you’re most comfortable at. Having a good instructor and better training partners is golden, not the style.

[@Arman-jx7hu]

Gracie Jiu-jitsu=awesome! Original Judo=awesome Sport has done a lot of damage to the martial arts. Kung Fu is a perfect example of that. Now it's called Wushu because it's a sport only. It's a shame. Sport also ruined traditional Karate and Taekwondo as well. It seems to be happening to Jiu-jitsu now too. Like I said, it's a shame.

[@somedude7892]

Its quite sad that Muay Thai (from Muay Boran) not only survived turning in to sport, but is still very damn effective and kept most of its core intact in terms of technique and training. Edit: The reason I find it sad is because when the Thai government wanted to promote the sport (even recently giving it its own ranking/belt system without the need for a fight record), they kept it as faithful as possible while still making it a foreign attraction of sorts... while countries like Malaysia and the Philippines have their own martial arts be, well... kinda just neglected in their home soil (but loved by foreigners, particularly westerners), and then there's Japan and Korea, making Karate, Judo, Taekwondo, and to some degree even Taekkyeon more sport than effective as a self defense.

[@anvark.1441]

More judo videos pls. And to complement the KJJ belt grade, i would like to see judo belt grades explained. There is no understandable video in youtube that explains judo belt grading. Thanx.

[@daveyponderosa9549]

JUDO follows a syllabus a workbook per se. You progress as you learn and master the ‘ chapters ‘ of the ‘ workbook ‘. I hope that helps a little. 🙏

[@johnrambo4259]

Body slams , Double leg, single leg,and hammer fist were all judo moves

[@dumkoph]

Good video! Judo has become extremely watered down in many schools as has many of the BJJ programs that I have encountered. I began studying Jujitsu / Judo / Karate in the 1980's. The Jujitsu was combat focused while the Judo was sport centered but still retained the Ne Waza (ground fighting) and Goshin waza (self defense) aspects. The competitions were different as well. A lot more techniques were allowed and my Judo instructors came from the old lines (Original , Kosen and Danzen Ryu), and it was all in when it came to grappling. Leg locks, wrist locks, chokes, Scissor takedowns, slams, etc. When I encountered BJJ in the mid 1990's, their ground game was good and retained many of the old Judo technniques while Judo was going in the opposet direction. Now many Judo schools, as mentioned, are strictly focused on the Formal competitions as are the BJJ people, which have way too many rules (which I never understood in the BJJ camps as they are expanding the ground sport) which dont reflect real world situations that have been adapted for sport. I think the arts lose a lot of their value when people train for a something that has a very limited use. I am happy to see that some people in both camps are open minded and are expanding the arts and adapting that which is useful! Train hard and be happy!

[@ayurvology7537]

Just look at Barnett tap Dean Lister from Kesa. So it’s not worthless

[@deric819]

Great video! I train at the Gracie Academy in Torrance (self defense based Jiu-Jitsu) and train Judo at New Breed Academy in Santa Fe Springs (traditional sport based judo) why I find myself doing is adapting my judo on the fly into a combat style self defense based judo. I view competition as a way of training not as a means to an end. An example of me adapting my judo to a combat style would be the way I do O Soto Gari in a traditional way you use the collar and a sleeve in my combat way I grab your arm and neck or face. My entry into that combat osoto gari would vary depending on what the opponent gives me.

[@KamaJiuJitsu]

you need to do judo with either Nori Bunasawa in costa mesa or over at Ten-Ri.

[@deric819]

@@KamaJiuJitsu I'll look those up. Yeah I really want straight combat judo the way it should be taught. Perfect compliment to Gracie Jiu Jitsu

[@KamaJiuJitsu]

I don’t think you’ll have much success finding a combat judo dojo. Prolly 10x harder than finding a “complete” Jiu-jitsu school.

[@deric819]

@@KamaJiuJitsu yeah you're right you'd probably have to dust old judo texts off to find that

[@joeviz9576]

I was taught "combative judo" always different from sport...Kano felt competition was 1 third of practice in Judo ...now like bjj, it has become the most important part and so does not apply in real world conflict in the intended way... ossssssssss...

[@KamaJiuJitsu]

I like the concept of combat judo.

[@MJB_18]

After achieving which belt in Judo, would you recommend exploring and cross training?

[@KamaJiuJitsu]

Before you pick up the bad habits of either? But really, do them both at the same time, if you can.

[@amazingGrace108]

Really appreciate this chanel. Especially these videos which cover the judo as it relates to bjj topic. Would love to hear and see some of your realisations on kesa gatame and its inefficiency as practiced by judokas. Do you have any video courses available ?

[@KamaJiuJitsu]

We have a Patreon Channel link in the “notes” (not the “comments” section) section of all our videos. We have about 150+ technique videos posted there.

[@isalehyan]

As purely a pin, kesa is ok. But there are a limited number of submissions. Also, transitions to other positions aren’t as readily there.

[@amazingGrace108]

@@isalehyan I know at least 15 different submissions from kesa , not to mention leg locks . And I just started studying my options.

[@ideansalehyan2949]

@@amazingGrace108 That's awesome! You should make a KZbin video.

[@jeffreyhargrove2299]

I'm 6'1 200 pounds went to one Judo class he saw that I was good at falling and my rolls and stuff so he decided to try and throw me well I fell wrong thought I was gonna die and never went back and kind of regret it

[@hookedblades6471]

I've locked black belts in both BJJ and Judo in my Kesa and they've been completely unable to escape. Are you not grabbing your own leg/gi?

[@KamaJiuJitsu]

Doesn’t really matter with either when getting out.

[@hookedblades6471]

@@KamaJiuJitsu That seems really weird. Maybe it's cause I'm a heavyweight so it's different, but virtually nobody has been able to get out of mine.

[@KamaJiuJitsu]

When I was a purple belt in Jiu-Jitsu, I used to attend judo classes with my son (he was 7). I got out of all the black belts’ kesa no problem. One of them told the 300lb black belt (who liked to fancy himself as good in newaza) that I could prolly escape his kesa, as well. He said no way, especially since (at the time) I was only 145lbs. I really didn’t know if I could, either, so I said “let’s try and see if I can get out.” I got out no problem. Not saying I can get out of everyone’s kesa, but over the years, there haven’t been all that many people who could hold me in it. Same goes for my students these days.

[@hookedblades6471]

@@KamaJiuJitsu Really? That's weird. My school undoubtedly has a lower skill level, but we do pretty well in comps and against the other grappling schools under the same roof. I guess that's the difference between a top tier school and a smaller one.

[@KamaJiuJitsu]

The Gracies I trained with always thought of Jiu-Jitsu as “self-defense,” never as a sport (like today). As a result, headlock escapes were always (and still is a priority here at KJJ) drilled hard, and drilled often. A kesa gatami escape is VERY similar to a headlock escape, so we did/do a ton of those, as well. Do something 10,000 times, there aren’t going to be very many chances to see something you have NOT seen before. In other words, you excel at what you drill.

[@maxb5957]

Max was here

[@EliteBlackSash]

Sounds FUN

[@deric819]

Random thought even with sport based judo growing the way it has if you train at the Kodokan in Toyko and want to move up the dan ranks you must know self defense including weapons defenses. So in a way the Kodokan has kept Jigoro Kano's original vision.

[@jedijudoka]

I suppose sode tsurikomi goshi could work if you have double wrist control ?

[@isalehyan]

Zack Desroches it’s a good throw

[@jedijudoka]

isalehyan I like it a lot with a gi, never tried it without.

[@isalehyan]

Well, since “sode” literally means “sleeve” I don’t know how you would do it without gi. Maybe if your opponent has really hairy arms? 😂No gi requires more direct clinches and closer body contact.

[@jedijudoka]

isalehyan lol I know, I’m just trying to think outside the box with no gi variations, commenting to one throw he said could not be done without a gi. I’m thinking that if you have an overhand grip to his right wrist and somehow get an underhand grip on his left wrist, you can push his left high, and pull his right across as you bring your right hip across. Haven’t tried it myself, but Im Curious

[@KamaJiuJitsu]

so can you teach Logie to do the sode tsurikomi goshi on you (no gi) on monday in class?

[@SouthTexasArcheryNoob]

Hey prof. Ryan I was on the jjgf website to find an academy and found one do you think the fact that they are on the website means they are self defense focused?

[@KamaJiuJitsu]

No

[@SouthTexasArcheryNoob]

Yikes

[@MZITinfo]

How would you say does nogi judo differentiate from regular wrestling?

[@isalehyan]

MZITinfo very similar to wrestling. If focusing on competition, there are notable differences in the rules between no gi judo, freestyle, and greco Roman. We do avoid wrestling shots where the knees hit the mat, since that doesn’t work well for street contexts. But lots of wrestling throws have judo equivalents: Double leg: morote gari Firemans carry: kata Guruma Head and arm throw: koshi guruma Knee pick: kuchiki taioshi And more...

[@tommy2days]

I tried Judo for 2 months but felt lost the whole time. No instructions were given. Just pair up with someone and hope they teach you the technique. It wasn’t like aBJJ Class where you are shown how to do a technique then drill it with a partner. All instructions were given in Japanese also. In Randori it was like dancing, trying to get your footwork down before you execute the throw. Maybe it was the school. Traditional Judo school focused on competition. The Sensei yelled at the kids which caught me by surprise.

[@KamaJiuJitsu]

That just sounds like a bad school rather than a typical Judo experience. Anyone who yells at kids clearly isn’t in control or experienced. - Rusty

[@tommy2days]

Yeah. Made me uncomfortable. He yelled at the adults to. The black belt students were helpful it was just the Sensei. He was a 6th Dan. White and red belt. This was in West LA. Definitely pushed competition. Even for the adults. The kids classes were pretty intense.

[@tommy2days]

I would try Judo again but in the right environment or at a BJJ school

[@Sambo_Shorts]

@@KamaJiuJitsu bad school 100%

[@CodyCannon11]

This is why people should find a good instructor or school in any martial art. I haven't tried Judo, but what you are describing is a sign of poor instructor and it's relationship to the school.

[@tyhatfield7156]

100 and million zillion percent right my biggest thing about judo not teaching a lot of the different things like the double legs in the Firemans carries and different kinds of things it’s like they want to shy away from it because people weren’t doing the throes they were getting beat because of the grappling aspect of it more than the throwing. I would absolutely really believe this that we need to make sure that if were a self-defense school we teach good self-defense that would make the important part of it a defense of everything that we have you know! So the thing is having good self-defense means OK if they’re going to do that move into grappling move I better learn how to defend myself against it and better know how to like do it also!

[@MrKahunadog]

You should learn nuances on keeping kesa gatame...as you learn the nuances of escaping kesa gatame.

[@KamaJiuJitsu]

Oh, we know them.

[@porunmexicomejor1]

100% agree with all the conclutions, the competitive aspect could damage the martial art, but I think its inevitable. You can train for self defence all your life and if you are in a sefe county like japan maybe never is going to be use or you can kill the aggresor with a judo which it no a good idea or if you live in USA an a person aims you with a gun there is no to much to do. Sometime the competition with so many bad ruleset is the only way to prove your skills sad but true

[@otissmallwood4578]

Do you practice Judo Kata at Kama Jiu-Jitsu?

[@isalehyan]

Otis Smallwood when people get to the higher ranks, they can choose to if they want to. I didn’t learn Nage No Kata until brown.

[@otissmallwood4578]

Interesting. I was shown the entire sequence during my third Judo class, then shown how the concepts applied to real-world, self defense. Have you considered developing a Judo-Based punch/kick block/throw sequence to compliment the Gracie sequence?

[@KamaJiuJitsu]

oh, you mean like Gracie Jiu-Jitsu?

[@otissmallwood4578]

Kama Jiu-Jitsu - Lol. That is not what I meant, but Gracie JiuJitsu is a pretty perfect answer. I have just experienced aspects of Judo Kata that may perfectly translate into the development of a Gracie JiuJitsu practitioner. Then again, I don’t know all of Judo or Gracie JiuJitsu, so the complementary techniques that I see may already be taught at your school. This is all a big research project for me, so I was just wanted to know more about the applications of Judo Kata at Kama JiuJitsu.

[@KamaJiuJitsu]

gotta bail from MN... lol. i'm only half kidding.

[@scottwells8535]

I think it depends on what you want from your Judo or Jiu jitsu, in my opinion. All I hear is a man constantly looking to develop and improve his martial arts knowledge + technique. When someone escapes your hold then it's one of two things, you met someone with superior knowledge/technique or you don't have the level of skill you thought you did. I mean, does every footballer give up because he can't do what Messi can do? It's healthy to question what works in Judo or Jiu Jitsu in order to understand it on a deeper level but I think it's fairer to say every technique is only as good as the person using it and that varies from person to person. How you learn and place value in what you know is influenced by what you wish to achieve, and if you're looking for self defense over sport then your view will be biased to what you find effective. Some people will find a lifestyle of fulfillment and community in both Judo or Jiu jitsu and others will look to gain security from the skills they learn, either way it's all enrichment on some level. But make no mistake, your average person would be at a disadvantage against somebody with only a few years training in judo. You don't want to be thrown onto concrete without any experience of how that feels! I guess your journey is what you need for your own reasons, and in that respect, jump in and give it all you've got!

[@darylfields]

There's nothing wrong with doing judo cross train or doing kosen judo

[@isalehyan]

I don’t think most people understand what “kosen” judo is. It is a competition rule set that was used in some colleges.

[@darylfields]

@@isalehyan people need to respect judo more it's people changing the rules thus it's not as affective

[@isalehyan]

Daryl Fields I think there is a lot of mutual respect between knowledgeable BJJ people and Judo people. There is tribalism in any endeavor, but people with wisdom and experience understand what is useful from each.

[@darylfields]

@@isalehyan Hard to tell that jujitsu has any respect for judo

[@TSM260]

Like Saulo and Xande Ribeiro say "Judo creates gorillas, Jiu jitsu creates snakes" , they advise to get Black belts in both in order to be a complete grappler and very dangerous person. Saulo "butt scotting doesnt win championships" you should beable to threaten or win by standings via throw to transition to submission or by ground submission.

[@KamaJiuJitsu]

Saulo always had nice judo in his matches

[@redpilljujitsu9068]

In all honesty bjj is not new. The newaza is just refined since bjj is basically improved & focused Judo newaza. The lesson is to do judo for stand up and bjj for the ground. Its that simple.

[@darylfields]

Judo and Brazilian Jujitsu are the same Mitsuyo Maeda called jujitsu so he wouldn't offend Kodokan

[@darylfields]

Remember there would be bjj without judo

[@KamaJiuJitsu]

Would be or wouldn’t be?

[@darylfields]

@@KamaJiuJitsu wouldn't be

[@KamaJiuJitsu]

That’s what I thought you meant, but had to clarify.

[@darylfields]

@@KamaJiuJitsu 👌 but bjj and Judo are the same just a slight difference

[@horiturk333]

Gracie Jiu Jitsu is Judo LOL it's just the newaza

[@KamaJiuJitsu]

Not true. That’s like saying Judo is Jujutsu LOL it’s just without the swords and kicks and punches.

[@johnrambo4259]

The Gracie's use nawaza judo nothing more. They act like they invented certain techniques. They invented nothing

[@KamaJiuJitsu]

And yet, the BJJ art thrives.

[@KamaJiuJitsu]

I was just thinking… if Kato had done his job and choked Helio out cold instead of him being choked out cold by Helio, the Kimura x Helio match would have never happened. I wonder how events would have changed then? Or, if judo didn’t become an Olympic sport and focus 100% on competitions, maybe judo wouldn’t have neglected/lost its fighting roots. Or, if Kano embraced Maeda’s (and later on, Kimura’s) prize fighting, judo’s ground skills would’ve continued to be showcased in modern times. But alas, as much as judo guys cry that the Gracies created nothing, it’s Gracie Jiu-Jitsu that is the most complete (and legit) expression of the judo that was founded by Kano himself.

[@uhtredofbebbanburg5493]

@@KamaJiuJitsu So you think combining BJJ (mix of gi and no gi) and Judo is effective for self defense. In Judo we use gi but except from certain techniques that aren't being taught anymore (leglocks) it has a ton of awesome applicable stuff