Kathleen Stock & Holly Lawford-Smith | Gender-Critical Philosophers

[@riverdonoghue9992]

Disgraceful the harassment and intimidation that Professor Stock has had to endure at the hands of these thugs. I commend her for her courage, bravery and tenacity and for her ability to maintain her composure and dignity.

[@MEG-kg8xi]

You are my two favourite philosophers. I am thrilled you did this together - so informative. Thank you.

[@iristhornton7904]

Lol :(

[@misterpinkandyellow74]

""""""" philosophers.""""""

[@phillipjackson6345]

How historically lucky are we that we can hold this discussion in this manner, very lucky indeed.

[@jcgaladd]

Brilliant conversations. Hope you invite Kathleen Stock for more. Thanks!

[@bristolfashion4421]

Cheers, you guys! And if I may state the obvious up front - it's so cool to have sensible grown-ups discuss knotty ideas without shifting away from mutual respect and observing basic rules of polite intercourse. A fab. role model for all other interested parties !!

[@silentsabbath]

I'm only 30 minutes into this and I've had to pause it a couple times (to chew on the questions myself!). These are AWESOME questions. Thanks for doing this.

[@hollylawford-smith]

so glad you enjoyed it! thank you!

[@happynjoyousnfree]

I am biologically female and actually had the experience of feeling that my female-ness was denied/discouraged by my family and by my peers. I was a fat kid when there weren't too many fat kids in the 60's and I remember feeling angry that I wasn't considered fully female from a very young age because I was fat. It made me angry to be treated as less than fully female, so when I think of someone with the traditional definition of gender identity disorder (transexuals), I wonder if that's how they feel, as though the gender they truly feel that they are is being denied. I also wonder if those who claim they don't have a gender identity have never had their gender challenged as I have. For this reason and because gender identity disorder (now "gender dysphoria," which includes all sorts of things it never did before) has been documented for many decades, I believe that there are those who genuinely feel this way, but that they are a small minority of those who currently identify as transgender. I of course also believe that the whole trans thing has gotten out of control and has become very harmful, especially to women. Kathleen is so right that "women are at the forefront of transactivism!" I used to be an unquestioning advocate for trans ideology and when JKR came out as GC, I thought she was really minimizing gender dysphoria in her letter to her fans and I was pretty horrified by it. Since then, I've learned that gender dysphoria's definition has been so diluted as to include anyone who doesn't want to or feel s/he does conform to the gender stereotype of his/her biological sex. I'm really grateful to JKR and a FB friend for inspiring me to investigate the GC perspective. Regarding the difference between men and women and specifically women and transwomen, I keep thinking that I'd like to create a survey for people to self evaluate whether they truly believe that transwomen and biological women are the same. I think pornography (much as I am not a fan) is one place where people would get really clear, really quick. So one question would be, "Which would you rather see in a lesbian porn video, 2 biological women or 2 transwomen? Now same question, but both transwomen haven't taken hormones or had 'bottom surgery?'" Another question I'm thinking about is, "Who would be best able to lift something heavy, a biological woman or a transwoman? A biological man or a transman?" I mean the sad truth is that we ALL KNOW there's a difference and that it shouldn't be considered bigotry to acknowledge that. And yes, I "liked" this before I even listened to it because both of you adult human females are fabulous and you did not disappoint :-) Had to turn the volume WAY UP to hear it! @FeministHeretics please come to the GC groups on Facebook and promote your videos! I have shared one or two, but these are just awesome and if you ask for support yourselves, I think you'll get a lot more support, likes, subscriptions, etc.

[@hollylawford-smith]

i absolutely agree with you that there are people who really feel gender dysphoria, but that they are a tiny proportion of the current trans movement. i think the trans movement relies on the general public mistakenly assuming that the tiny proportion is actually the whole group.

[@happynjoyousnfree]

@@hollylawford-smith That's exactly what I believed until recently. I was shocked to learn that gender dysphoria in children typically resolves itself if left alone. We're doing these kids such a disservice! It's really heartbreaking.

[@hollylawford-smith]

@@happynjoyousnfree we really are. ps. i'm not sure if i'm in the gender critical facebook groups you mention, but it would be great to know where to share these videos - feel free to drop me an email! -- holly [dot] lawford [hypen] smith [at] unimelb [dot] edu [dot] au.

[@happynjoyousnfree]

@@hollylawford-smith I definitely will!

[@madisonc8886]

It's not considered bigotry to talk about biology. Trans people openly talk about it with their doctors. There's such a thing as being inappropriate about someone's biology though. This is a strawman with people like you.

[@NotADood]

I'm new to you, Holly, but I've been a fan of Doc Stock for a while. Great discussion.

[@hamiltonmackenzie3340]

Kathleen - love you 😍 stay strong xx

[@tatjanasmirnova9004]

Thank you Holly for posting this recording of the webinar. I very much enjoyed it, and it's great to now be able to go back and listen again to some of the points you both made, and to do some more thinking ;-). By the way, are your Medium articles available somewhere? I would particularly be interested in your piece about the trans/adoption (false) analogy, which was cited somewhere recently, but no longer accessible.

[@hollylawford-smith]

hi tatjana! really glad you enjoyed it! and yup, i've reposted all my medium articles to my website, and the adoption piece you mention is among them: hollylawford-smith.org/blog-posts/

[@tatjanasmirnova9004]

@@hollylawford-smith thanks, that's awesome!

[@hybridmongrel]

Great discussion thanks and solidarity to all described as TERFs etc. The section on sexuality, I totally eroticise fecundity, also a particularly womanly strength and determination - both in sexual and other terms. This discussion links back to Germain's The Female Eunuch, etc. I feel. Human diversity in all its amazing richness, beyond the usual cliches, is stunted by patriarchy and in a similar way by the acceptance or acquiescence of the gender binary (uber-cliched stereotypes of 'femininity', right down to fetisization of weakness and submission) in trans ideology. Nothing in that is liberating, only the illusion of it by escaping the cringeworthy trappings of machismo and donning a dress. Dresses should be worn by anyone who wants to - or not. Cravenly copying the worst aspects of how men see and supposedly 'want to' see women, is not to be admired, supported or defended by anyone with any claim to be progressive, let alone left wing.

[@FR0STBL0D]

How do non-binary folks and Hawaian Māhū fit into your notions of transgender ideology? In other words: What makes you so sure that the gender binary isn't a cis concept ... related to deeply conservative views that distinguish production (working sphere) and reproduction (family shpere) as stable and "biologically" correct gendered fields?

[@RB-jl2qb]

@@FR0STBL0D there is no such thing as a cis concept. There is only such a thing as stereotypes. Gender identity ideology and it’s concepts is the extreme example of these stereotypes put into practice. Non binary is just the mid ground where almost the whole population sits ie not at the extreme ends of the sex stereotypes. However non. Binary is a ridiculous concept because it extinguishes sex from the individual and pretend they are solely a mid range sex stereotype without an actual sexed body. Gender identity is a ridiculous ideology specifically because it pretends that sex operates on a spectrum which it doesn’t.

[@FR0STBL0D]

@@RB-jl2qb ... stay in your anti-science "gender critical" cult ... if you want to. That's all that can be said here.

[@RB-jl2qb]

@@FR0STBL0D you are laughable. Gender identity ideology is the perfect definition of anti science or pseudoscience.

[@FR0STBL0D]

@G That's just a lie.

[@alastairmoody798]

A question I would have put to KS and HLS during the event; ‘Do you agree with women recently speaking for WoLF (US-based ‘women’s liberation front’) that the only coherent stance that gender-critical feminism can take against ‘gender self-ID’ is one that withholds any recognition of womanhood (eg using ‘she’/‘her’ pronouns) from natal males in all circumstances?’

[@ayejax4150]

Woman is the specific term for a female member of the human species. There is no circumstance whatsoever where it is appropriate to apply this world to a male.

[@iristhornton7904]

I am so tired of this drivel, sex is immutable, permanent. So many tedious idiots.

[@hollylawford-smith]

that would have been a great question to include.

[@alastairmoody798]

I’m glad you think so! But what would be your answer? (I think Professor Stock answered it in her book published after you created this video).

[@hollylawford-smith]

@@alastairmoody798 i basically agree with (your characterisation of) WoLF. i think in interpersonal interactions we can be flexible in order to be polite, but in speaking academically or publicly we should retain all of the terminology we need, including 'female', 'woman', 'lesbian', 'mother', 'breastfeeding', 'she/her', and more.

[@pamm8713]

A man who had unlearned male socialization would inherently respect women's only spaces. It wouldn't come up.

[@hamiltonmackenzie3340]

If women saw men as individual human beings, equally full of potential, they would be surrounded by the best of men.

[@thenewdawn9963]

No.

[@reddragonready]

🤣On what exactly would you base that assumption?

[@noah1502]

this is a great discussion, two brilliant feminists and philosophers

[@euanmacleod3738]

What a fascinating and insightful discussion this was. Really thought provoking stuff.

[@pythonjava6228]

48:00 i think it's a difficult question because patriarchy creates difference where it doesnt biologically exist but ultimately its fine if there's some difference because we can accommodate them. But it seems that theres generally more overlap between male and female behaviour than not so i think accomodating behavioural differences may end up being for minority individuals. But i agree with Holly that we can deconstruct femininity and masculinity and then people can just do whatever they want without a specific bundle clustering around s3x. And i also agree with Kathleen that there's always going to be some social stuff stuck to male and female purely because of our anatomy. Like maternity and paternity will necessarily have different social practices.

[@pamharrison8348]

So interested in this discussion, thank you both. Am digging deep into the gender issue to be better informed and be confident in my position. I am listening to the people who support the current wave, to understand that argument. I found the KZbin video about the closure of the trans gender identity clinic in London and the events that led up to it really revealing. Worth a view. One point is that there still has not been enough time pass, and there is not enough statistics of outcomes to draw any strong view about gender fluidity. I myself do not separate biology completely from gender roles, I think that is impossible. Yes, there is the societal learned gender roles, but there is also male female differences that come from biology, that lead to male and female behaviour and traits. Feminism to me is about liberation, not equality (for both sexes).

[@maxdashu]

At 39:00, guilt-by-association is rampant these days.

[@benhaskin1159]

Around the 19'20 mark, Kathleen mentions a yet to be published paper by Michael _______ about how male sex offenders were put into female prisons in the UK. Didn't catch the name. Thanks.

[@izzyfox7575]

Michael Biggs (Oxford University) xx

[@pseudonamed]

thank you

[@pythonjava6228]

1:20:00 I think feminist theory is incredibly important so long as it's supportable by reality and empirical evidence. The trens issue has shown me that. Without feminist theory, for instance theory about patriarchy, many wouldn't have been able to see trens acticivism for what it is and become GC activists. Theory can inform grass roots activism.

[@NiinaSKlove]

*Sisterhood* - a word that I’m allergic to.

[@uncomfortablydumb2172]

Why?

[@NiinaSKlove]

@@uncomfortablydumb2172 It’s shallow.

[@pamharrison8348]

Just up to 1.22 and Kathleen said the words..."wow...there's no such thing as women"..as a concept, and my mind flashed to the history of women being minimised, written out of history, considered property and so on. Younger women will think this stuff was in the long distant past, but no, women were sacked when they married in the sixties. I am 66 so it is in my time. Taking a really broad view, what if this current gender and trans situation is another wave of history where women are being nullified? Men aren't, no-one is talking about men. It has been said women themselves are strong advocates for the trans activism currently taking place, well that in itself might end up being examined in the future, as to what happened there. What is happening in the world otherwise is relevant. The level of Narcissism is rising due to social media. Activism from a small group of people can have an explosive effect, when in the past it didn't exist so the effect of a small group was mostly minimal. Trans gender people need all the support and medical assistance they need, and should be accepted in the community as brave people wanting to live their authentic lives. I've read studies where out of groups of people who identified as trans, 75 to 80 % of them finally ended up being homosexual in reality (their reality). Those that transitioned were in a disturbing predicament. What if the issue in fact isn't primarily about gender identification, but another attempt to ,marginalise and erase women as a group? This interview that I am posting is really interesting. Ignore the fact it is Jordon Peterson, listen to the women talk about her and her female peers' experiences in relation to males identifying as females. Draw you own opinions, but I think if these experiences and actions of colleges and organisations are ignored, then women are indeed being erased and harmed to a significant degree. (Ignore Peterson's input, he is who he is). kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZmmnhICbetWEr7s

[@yardengali]

I think you are getting mixed up there...not surprisingly..when you are talking about who " ends up" homosexual in their reality v how many are homosexual but identify as trans. Your theory on dismissing women is what feminists have already been saying all over the place for several years.

[@camildumitrescu3703]

What a great discussion. In "vulgar" terms. if we could just have more of it - hell, we could as well live in old a$$ greece, much unlike today, globally so further Progressed, as Humans....

[@4thworldwilderness390]

They are philosophers?

[@yardengali]

I think to get rid of all gender is not only not possibly but also not necessary. From personal, fairly unique, experience, I think good part of gender roles are in fact hormonally influenced and therefor biological. I think we need to change our raising and education significantly to be geared more to independent thinking and confidence and a whole lot less Ego rather than trying in vain to abolish biological fact. That might solve both the trans issue and the need for feminism. And if we'd also change our capitalist society we'd get rid of even more worldwide issues.

[@pythonjava6228]

I think it's a difficult tight rope to walk of holding men accountable for patriarchal attitudes, male vi0lence, male entitlement....etc without demonizing men in general and without letting women off the hook for upholding patriarchy. We were all socialised but at the end of the day patriarchal socialisation was created largely for male benefit so its just easier to sympathise with women who were socialised into it. For example if you live in a culture where child marriage is common you'll definitely see both women amd men participating in upholding the system, but you'll generally be right to feel angrier at the men since the women were literally sold off as kids. So i guess in a sense its not a double standard, in every instance, to react to men and women differently because even though we are all socialised its men who are the primary beneficiaries of certain harmful practices and women who are primarily harmed and its fine to recognise that even as we simultaneously recognise that socialisation plays a role and both s3xes participate.

[@madeye0]

How can you be attracted to sex if you can't reliably perceive sex? Attraction to behaviours and physical attributes seems much more coherent.

[@ayejax4150]

haha in what world can you not perceive sex? It is by far the most prominent characteristic in the human species.

[@madeye0]

@@ayejax4150 If you can be fooled by how someone is dressed or by a person that is on a hormone therapy, you can't perceive sex.

[@ayejax4150]

@@madeye0 it’s an extreme rarity that you can actually be fooled something always gives it away.

[@KripkeSaul]

@@ayejax4150 Exactly!

[@pseudonamed]

yes well many of those "physical attributes" are secondary sex characteristics.. sex characteristics go beyond just genitalia. And many people find only one set of those characteristics attracts them. And though it's true that on rare occasions some people could be mis-read through hiding or altering those characteristics, once they are naked one's attraction to them could be affected all the same. and there's nothing bigoted about that.

[@jacksondickert8093]

way to keep the death threats to transgender women to a minimum

[@hollylawford-smith]

academics are not usually in the business of issuing death threats!

[@RB-jl2qb]

Perhaps this is an area that those claiming to be Transwomen now have in common with women. Women get death threats all the time. It’s clearly something males didn’t know about until Identifying as women

[@jolielaide2494]

you're welcome to step out of the hysteria & join reality anytime. we won't hold a grudge you got caught up in a cult, some very intelligent people have & do

[@friskybitzboi]

KZbin recommending this to me is transphobic

[@Anonimo-tb6ge]

Hi! :-D Just to point out: you're falling for the "duality myth" (body/soul or body/mind) false dicotomy. This is a pure *idealistic* coordinates (in opossition to material philosophical coordinates) which I've detectedA LOT during past years mostly from philosophers coming from countries with a prominent cristian protestant cultural background (USA & UK). I think the key is to start thinking the scientific approach (biology, antrophology,etc) and try to do philosophy from there (pure material coordinates) discarding the myth of the duality body/mind as "you're not your mind neither your sould" in fact, existence of "the mind" hasn't been proved so far (neither the soul :-P) meanwhile "you are your body" (with you own psicology ofc) has been proven since loooong time (indeed centuries). Democritus & Epicuro were on point as they discard the duality soul & body meanwhile Plato & Decart sadly fall for it. To be able to start approaching this matter from a proper philosophical material coordinates, the body & mind/soul duality must be discarded ... indeed, I would say that "an identity" as it is understood by most of critical philosophy approaches are a kind of analogy of "the soul" or "the mind".

[@o0o026]

lol I don’t know how you can even come to that conclusion.. they just spent the entire video critiquing gender dualism in one form or another

[@aaronsmyth7943]

Ever get the feeling you aren't making any logical sense?

[@hamiltonmackenzie3340]

Thank you for sharing your experience. If your feeling that way, it might be that you are a bit dim.

[@aaronsmyth7943]

@@hamiltonmackenzie3340 With the implication that you are not, of course.

[@hamiltonmackenzie3340]

@@aaronsmyth7943 I’m an educated man. And repeatedly dim 😜

[@reddragonready]

@@hamiltonmackenzie3340 😄👍 Good replies!

[@j.schmitt220]

Yes... let them fight!

[@iristhornton7904]

'philosophers' lol

[@hamiltonmackenzie3340]

Kathleen Stock received an OBE for her contributions to philosophy, what about you? Lol

[@alexjohnson8652]

two cis women talking about trans women in the abstract reminds me of when white people would explain why black people should have different bathrooms and hospitals.

[@alexjohnson8652]

@SalCee We must ban groups of people from accessing basic necessities in cruel ways in order to protect the majority ruling group from...?what? People thinking in abstract concepts?

[@alexjohnson8652]

​@SalCee what do we do about women who commit sexual assault - do we ban all women from woman's spaces too? How will they conceive of themselves without abstract concepts in peace and privacy if any rapists exist in their spaces.

[@alexjohnson8652]

@SalCee no you're against abortion too? I think you are revealing how reactionary and conservative the terf truly are - not a lick of feminism here.

[@hollylawford-smith]

it should remind you of black people talking about how unjust it was that they had been segregated into different spaces by white people.

[@pythonjava6228]

And males trying to dictate what women are reminds me of colonisation.

[@jacksondickert8093]

platforming fascists

[@Car-qu2bc]

How are either of them fascist?

[@TheTrenchesYT]

Fascism forbids conversation and disagreement; making threats and pretending that words are the same as violence. Fascism is you.

[@amandarose3169]

More pseudo feminism.

[@lakshmp4530]

Cringe. What a terrible interviewer. "How are we doing on time, by the way." Indeed...