Sore knees? Sore lower back?! It could be your SADDLE FORE / AFT

Three metrics to get the right saddle position - height, tilt and fore and aft.
Today we look at getting the right fore /aft for you.
As always, thanks so much to Phil Burt for making it easy to understand.
www.philburtinnovation.co.uk
// Cycling eBook: www.ilikemountains.cc/s-h-o-p
// Instagram: / katiekookaburra1
// Strava: / strava
// My Zwift Club: tinyurl.com/4wusdwxp
// Patreon: / katiekookaburra
Well chuffed to have the following brands support me and my ol' cycling adventures. So you will see some of their products I choose to use in my content :)
www.shimano.com/en/
www.garmin.com/
www.zwift.com/uk
exposurelights.com/
Precision Hydration 15% off here: visit.pfandh.com/katiek
Shokz: Use KATIE2023 for £10 off: shokz.cc/3Sq4IXJ

[@robinhawes8843]

Always great to hear from Phil, he helped me get back cycling in 2021 after a long-term hip injury. One massive benefit for me, often not talked about, was the confidence he instilled by reframing my attitude to the particular injury. Highly recommend if anyone's in a bit of a rut with getting cycling again😊

[@KatieKookaburra]

So good to hear that he helped you Robin, will pass on the lovely words to the man himself :)

[@aubreyxengland]

kind of surprised this wasn't discussed as Phil focused mostly on knee pain as the primary symptom of being too far forward, but correct fore/aft also effects the weight on your hands. knee pain is a symptom with numerous causes, where fore/aft is probably not one of the first things to investigate (try cleat position, Q factor, saddle height, and crank length) when in the correct fore/aft position you should be able to take your hands off the bars without much change to your torso angle, and when putting out power, you should feel nearly zero weight on your hands - or just enough to steer the bike.

[@KatieKookaburra]

Yes good shout! :)

[@jpryding]

@@KatieKookaburra I'm super struggling with weight on my hands, I just can'g get them to feel light. Tried everything short of a bike fit . Maybe this issue would be a good one for its own video?

[@ozzz3365]

Level the seat. Take the saddle 3-5 mm backward. ​@@jpryding

[@robertosantoro9685]

In the tentative to alleviate my back pain, last summer I experimented with a more forward position and got immediately quads soreness and even cramps on longer rides. I switched back to more aft saddle position and felt immediately better, while switching from 172.5mm to 165mm crank which almost completely solved my back pain issue

[@ozzz3365]

Yes like they said below, The most important thing for adjust fore/aft, is the weight balance of the rider. You must consider it first.

[@StevieJD74]

Just done a Zwift session on my Kickr bike which unfortunately isn’t set up quite right. Part way into the ride I started suffering some discomfort in my left knee (this often happens on my trainer) quickly moved the saddle back slightly then continued to ride. Niggle in my knee eased. Putting into practice what I picked up in the video last night has really helped. Thank you. 🙏 👏

[@grahambell9831]

Really insightful videos Katie and Phil.....keep up the bike fit topic on your channel, the advice is first class. Thanks for sharing today's tips, they are unequivocally key to a perfect fit 👍

[@KatieKookaburra]

Thanks Graham!! :)

[@grahambell9831]

@KatieKookaburra Hi Katie, thanks for your reply. Have a great weekend ! 🚵

[@johnmcnulty1129]

Great vlog Katie Thanks as always Phil for the insight. ☀️ 🐿🐿

[@GrenvilleMelonseedSkiff496]

Ta very much Katie and Phil for another really useful bike fit video! Over the last year I’ve been tweaking my Giant Defy mostly to stop knee pain and, thanks in no small measure to your excellent videos, I think I’m pretty close to the optimal setup for me! Just started my winter Zwifting season with the same bike and so far so good.

[@KatieKookaburra]

Awesome!!! Wooop woooooop!!!!

[@twowheelsandcroissant]

Phil's explanation is really logical and easy to follow.. Hands down one of the best out there apart from Neill Stanbury, James bikefit and Stewart Morton.. very informative

[@StevieJD74]

Love these videos and I can definitely relate to the difference a correctly fitting saddle can make. Insightful as always. Thank you very much to you both. Keep up the good work. I will look forward to the next video.

[@KatieKookaburra]

Glad it was helpful! Thanks Stevie :) see you Sat 🗼

[@StevieJD74]

Looking forward to it 🚴🚴‍♀️🕺😂

[@kevinwong2488]

Amazing video once again super super informative!!! Thanks for answering my question and making a video about it!!! Just incase there's no topic for the next few videos ill throw one topic in there. Handlebar height and reach where is the perfect height and reach and where should the shoulder blades be? Retracted/protracted or neutral?

[@edwardojg]

Im a long leg short torso outlier it took me years to realise i needed a 51cm bike and im just under 5 "11 but it works for me

[@juliodiaz3920]

honest guy 👌🏼

[@joannasobkowicz3722]

Katie, great to see more and more videos with Phil! Could you consider making a specific video about fitting people with long legs and shorter torso etc.(my case)? plus some insides for fitting climbers when you need space for getting into low bar posiition for long downhills (Alps, Stelvio etc.) Are you comfortable on downhils with your current setup (reach)?

[@rug212]

Great video. Thanks for the info. I’m new to cycling and I just can’t seem to find the right setting for my saddle. I have a new fancy (expensive) saddle coming in tomorrow. Hopefully I can dial it in. For me it’s the lower back pain.

[@darrenchubb6926]

Hi katie good video very important too get it wright takecare

[@davidpinnington213]

Mentioned on last video had 2 fits previously and they basically did a cookie cutter "you should be here" (in my case too far back) took me a while and a lot of research (before PB came onto the scene) and a bit of ££ on new parts - straight seatpost/short nose saddle/forget the slammed stem/ get my cleats all the way back - sorted - just need shorter cranks on my road bike- can't swop out from my TT machine.......................

[@AnvilAirsoftTV]

Thanks for doing this. Recently switched to a short nose saddle and have struggled a bit with fit since. I’m on the 175mm cranks my bike came with. Looking back at an old (10 years+) bike fit document I used to ride 170mm. I’m 6ft with a 32” inseam so might try 165mm for a change. Maybe a chat about crank length would be great.

[@KatieKookaburra]

I know for a fact Phil advocates massively for shorter cranks as he says there is zero negative impact from them. Wiggins used 165mm from what Phil said too so if it's good enough for Wiggo....

[@AnvilAirsoftTV]

@@KatieKookaburramy TT bike had shorter cranks and got on well with them. Alex Dowsett advocates shorter cranks too.

[@ScottBaker1]

Love bike fit tips!

[@KatieKookaburra]

Me too!

[@bernieraverty4319]

Great video…I would love to hear about whether or not cycling specific orthotics are a worthwhile investment

[@Goose077]

I'm an above knee amputee who would love some help with bike fit as everything feels very odd, just wish I was closer to Phil's practice.

[@greggsenne1268]

One measure is the weight distribution. 40/60 fore/aft is one recommendation. Weigh your bike and yourself together. Put your front wheel on the scales while sitting on the bike. Put a book under your rear wheel to level it out. If you're within a few percent, you're good.

[@callalys]

Any tips for winter season? staying healthy and safe… and how do you deal with having a cold or being sick? I need some tips for recovery/ after the flu , something for getting back in shape after illness 😷💕

[@occyman]

Good to see he acknowledged crank length in this video compared to the last video

[@KatieKookaburra]

I explained in the comment about it :) chillllllll 😗

[@occyman]

@@KatieKookaburrachilled is good, correct information is also good. 😂

[@greggsenne1268]

Another way to look at this is to examine what determines where your sit bones want to be. The length of your stem is one bit. The shape of your saddle is another. What happens if they don't match? The two will try to push your sit bones either too far back or too far forward relative to the other. The result is a shear force on your skin as your sit bones hunt between where the stem and the saddle want it to be. When your saddle and stem agree, there's a lot less stress on the sensitive bits. If you can't find a comfortable saddle and/or shorts, this might explain it.

[@shaunroos8245]

Great video as usual katie! Perhaps you or Phil could confirm this? If you move your saddle forward, do you have to increase the saddle height?

[@KatieKookaburra]

Yes great point!!!! Yes move it up :)

[@abedfo88]

When my saddle is too far forward it ruins my right glute, Quadratus Lumborum and TFL where they join to the pelvis.

[@JohnSmith-ox7xc]

Those bike fit videos are always useful especially as someone just getting into it. How comfortable should a saddle be though expectation wise? First few times out on the bike doing practice laps about 20 mins max each time and I've had a soreness for up to three weeks even when staying off the bike (first time bike rider in nearly 40 years - no experience as a child) . No pain whilst riding just shuffling around a bit to find the most comfortable position on it. Is it just a matter of desensitising the area and getting it used to it that even the most form fitting saddle will be uncomfortable initially?

[@KatieKookaburra]

Saddle pain... you shouldn't get any really. It might take a little adjusting - my saddle I love now I wasn't 100% when I first tried it. But... after say a few rides it should feel comfortable without chafing or saddle sores. So many factors go into saddles - it might not be the saddle just the way it's being set up. Wish I could help more but so difficult to do over a message

[@nathanieldwarner]

Does Phil have an opinion on Brooks saddles? Are they all hype or actually as comfortable as people say?

[@252Scooby]

Hey Katie I was on a little ride out this morning along the canal and I saw a barge called “The KOOKABURRA “ so I thought That’ll do for our Katie 😂 🛥️

[@KatieKookaburra]

Ayyy as long as it’s got room for my bikes haha

[@252Scooby]

@@KatieKookaburra 😂 🚲 well of course madam and the rest as those canal boats are at least 45 ft long ⚓️

[@gavinneale6651]

Hi, great video, in regards to front knee pain, I get pain on my right front knee only, could I assume this is not a bike fit problem as no such issues with left knee, thanks

[@KatieKookaburra]

No no you could have a leg length difference - I have one. Or one side might be tighter than the other which can cause pain in just one side. It’s rare you would get pain both sides from what I’ve learned.

[@BrianZiegler-lc6wq]

If i don't set my fore/aft all or nearly all the way forward, ig get front end wobble on fast descents. Any suggestions?

[@malcontent510]

How do I interpret a _geometry chart_ when choosing bike/frame size? The brand I'm considering (Bombtrack) is not available in my local shops. I see you did a videos ~3 years ago but hope you might get more into the technical considerations.

[@KatieKookaburra]

It can vary so much between brands so a great way to do this if you have a bike size you love, go to Geometry Geeks geometrygeeks.bike they compare all bikes brands. So you can see if it will feel longer / lower etc. :) Hope that helps.

[@malcontent510]

@@KatieKookaburra that's very helpful (potentially) - I'll definitely check that site. Thx! P.S. good to see you've gotten beyond your weird hand injury & smiling again.

[@malcontent510]

@@KatieKookaburra ...wow, I can't believe my current bike is listed (a ~7-year old steel single speed) & this site makes the task of comparing geometry very easy - *_genius_*

[@rbonn3880]

Always brilliant. I've had a bike fit a few years ago after recovering from hip replacement surgery (wound up with oval chainring and shorter cranks to compensate for less mobility), but wondering if I should invest in another fitting just to see (now that I've fully healed) if things should be adjusted at all. Thank you Phil and Katie as always!

[@scchua4203]

I think, I might have to pay Mr. Phil Burt a visit with my bike to fine tune the saddle height and position. Heh. I'll just save up to fly from Singapore.

[@KatieKookaburra]

Wow!! That’s a long way. Email him to ask if he will do a remote fit… he did them in Lockdown x

[@seanoreilly6774]

Brooks saddle all the way one of the best.

[@nodbag6301]

What about a fit for a mountain bike used for longer distances and not trail work? Thanks both.

[@KatieKookaburra]

Yeah defo!!

[@johnhewer0]

Would a bike fit be suitable for a full suspension mountain bike? I do trail riding and am mostly in the saddle not standing.🤔

[@KatieKookaburra]

Yeah I think if you are getting pain / issues then can defo help!!

[@IainThacker]

Static bike (Wattbike Atom) fit question - constantly end up tipping up the nose of the saddle to stop me feeling like I'm sliding off the front of it. What am I doing wrong?. Can't take the bike to an expert for a fit!

[@michaelpeppersack8599]

what should I adjust if the backs of both arms ach while riding my road bike?

[@KatieKookaburra]

Ooof not sure on this one

[@8259lv]

I’ve just had a bike fit as feet and hands tingly and numb seat was too low and cleats too far forward! Now feet feel fine but still tingly hand on right side and still feel as if I’m a bit stretched and weight on hand! Any suggestions pls?

[@KatieKookaburra]

I would defo back to the person who did your bike fit.

[@KatieKookaburra]

Maybe narrower bars?

[@enigma1000]

So assuming my position is about right, how do I find a comfortable saddle? I’ve had two bike fits, both showed my position was ok and I’m still uncomfortable on almost all saddles. Saddle pressure has been checked using the Geobimized pressure mapping and it shows low pressures and pressures in the right place. And the saddle still feels like sitting on acorns…. I’ve tried a lot of saddles, too. Fizik Arione, Antares, Tempo Argo, Brooks B17 and Professional, SMP Drakon and two others, SQ Labs, various Turbos, Madison G12, 14, with / without gel etc. You get the idea.

[@KatieKookaburra]

Did the places you had bike fits not recommend or let you test any???

[@KatieKookaburra]

Phil has literally LOADS in his studio for people to try and he could defo recommend one. I would go back to the bike fitters you had and ask them

[@enigma1000]

@@KatieKookaburra Thanks. They recommended the saddle I was already using. Selle Italia Superflow Boost SLR. S3 fit. From that you can work out who the bike fitter is…. I’m not saying the bike fitter is bad but they haven’t managed to improve saddle comfort which is a little disappointing.

[@___Bebo___]

​@@enigma1000 If you can't get comfortable on a Fizik Tempo Argo you might be out of luck lol. That is the best hard road saddle I've ever tried in my life.

[@___Bebo___]

​@@enigma1000 Try a Serfas Peformance RX. It has way more foam than most road saddles so for 60+ mile rides it's not ideal, but it's a decent road saddle if your sit bones are too sensitive. The bottom layer of foam is super dense so you won't sink in very far like other cushioned saddles. It won't look cool on your road bike, but it can get the job done pretty well. Once you get all the nerves in your sit bones nice and dead maybe try switching over to a hard / light saddle then.

[@mindoverthemmiles]

This guy sounds just like the bike fitter in Francis Cades videos.. why do they all sound the same?? 😂

[@brucehumphries6889]

From England

[@___Bebo___]

If you need a slammed forward straight seatpost your top tube is too long, lol. No way I would ever ride a straight seatpost on any bike that is torture.

[@KatieKookaburra]

It's the way my body is - long legs shirt toros. Smaller frame way too low head tube.

[@___Bebo___]

​@@KatieKookaburra I'd go back to riding steel bikes with an old school road or rando fit. If you can't run a 25mm setback seatpost with the rails in the middle of the saddle with bent elbows I'd get off the bike it's not worth it.

[@tongotongo3143]

Those tips are very questionable. When you slide your saddle all the way forward you loose stability and control of the bike, you also put too much weight on your hands and discomfort is guaranteed. Besides that, with your saddle forward you recruit mostly your quads and eliminate glutes with hamstrings. I have been in this delusion and trap of “logics” attempting to solve problems with saddle forward. All problems somehow have gone when I moved the saddle about 1 cm backwards from the central position.

[@KatieKookaburra]

That’s great it’s worked for you 👍🏼👍🏼