Kaunteya Das on Gurukula, Varnasrama & False Bans Against Him | Ep. 166

[@KSD.]

This is gold. Thankyou Namaras pr for lucidly presenting these gems (senior devotees) to us

[@PranadaComtois]

This is Govinda dasi's response to the legend that women demanded second initiation. She is responding to a class by Bhakti Vikas Swami (BVS) on April 27, 2019. "Two stories BVS relates without names involves me, Govinda dasi. In the first story BVS refers to us as feminist devotees. Without naming us he refers to Jadurani and myself, both young Vaisnavis. At that time, actually Srila Prabhupada did not want to initiate the men, saying first initiation was enough. Gaursundar had been reading and understood that gayatri was another level of merciful advancement. Srila Prabhupada finally consented. "The initiation was to take place the following day. When I, Govinda dasi, found out about it, I decided to stay home, because I was annoyed that Prabhupada was doing the event even though he was ill. We were concerned for his health. A little later, though, I thought that I was missing Srila Prabhupada speaking, so I ran ten blocks to the temple. When I arrived, Srila Prabhupada said, "Yes, I couldn't imagine how you could stay away. You love to hear me speak." I was happy to hear Srila Prabhupada. "The following day, Srila Prabhupada initiated the Vaisnavis without being requested by us." Regarding TKGs suggestion to send women to Australia. This is a fact, one that seriously concerned us as a possibility and we wanted with worry for Prabhupada's response. Rukmini dasi (ACBSP) presented a paper at the ISKCON Communications European Conference the weekend of May 25th 2024. The talk is available here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/mIeoo3SMl65pidU At 26:08 Rukmini says, "In January 1976, in Mayapur, Tamal Krishna Maharaja and others presented their idea that no women to be allowed to live in ISKCON temples, because their presence creates distractions for those pursuing the renounced order. And then it came to the GBC. Who supported this proposal? Srila Prabhupada wanted to know. He overturned this decision and in fact instructed that Tamal Krishna Goswami himself be sent away to China."

[@gracenote108]

It's unbelievable that this is an issue that is widespread today.

[@StanG]

That's Govinda Dasi speaking in 2019. However, "Following Prabhupada" video from 2015 has her telling the end of the story differently: "I was mad. I was very upset about this and so because I was a little upset he decided that the girls also should have Gayatri Mantra. Jadurani was more upset, and so he gave us initiation the next evening with the Gayatri Mantra because he knew that in this country the girls and the boys are educated in the same." kzbin.info/www/bejne/faCTcqx6bNqlo9ksi=kPS_gVrW9ngepaNr&t=4152 The actual recording of the voiceover for "Following Prabhupada" must have come from a lot earlier. In the interview I think three matajis were mentioned who got initiated. One can't keep her story straight and became the source of "urban legend" itself, another found a new guru and got a new name (and a new initiation, apparently), and the third one got female sannyasa once and now she has to be addressed as "Prabhu" and she still wears orange. You can give them all the initiations and mantras you want, it doesn't seem to affect actual changes in their nature. Common saying in this regard is "putting lipstick on a pig", or maybe this phenomenon should be called "Boston Brahmins", as they quipped in "Following Prabhupada" just a minute earlier.

[@Kaunteyadas]

@@StanG As far as the allegedly shifting reports by Govinda Dasi (she has, deservedly or undeservedly, a reputation about changing narratives...), yes, I am aware of this testimonial, but I find it irrelevant and inconsistent. This is what she said (from the link you shared): "Because [notice the causative] I was a little upset he [Srila Prabhupada] decided that the girls also should have Gayatri mantra. Jadurani was more upset. And so [again notice the causative] he gave us initiation the next evening." This is just an interpretation of the facts; these are not facts. There is no evidence that it's their feelings that prompted Srila Prabhupada to give them second initiation; it's only a hypothesis. And it's a hypothesis that doesn't make any sense, historically: Srila Prabhupada's Guru Maharaja was already giving second initiation to women, so why Srila Prabhupada would have ever doubted to do the same thing? Why Srila Prabhupada would have stopped that practice? There is no reason to believe so. The only difference was that Srila Prabhupada also gave the Brahma-gayatri to women, but that obviously wasn’t the issue in Boston, in May 1968. Obviously, the issue was "second initiation" The issue of the girls was not, "Oh, you are giving us only six mantras! We want all seven, like the boys!" The whole thing sounds so artificial and contrived, perhaps mixed with other discussions that happened much later. Another fundamental question: would Srila Prabhupada change his mind, his plans about the standards for initiation, because a couple of girls were upset? Is this the Srila Prabhupada we know? And, again, why Srila Prabhupada would plan not to give women second initiation when his Guru Maharaja did? The whole idea is… unconvincing and based on no factual or tangible evidence, no spoken or written proof.

[@SyamantakaLila]

​@@StanG ​ I want to go on record saying that your metaphor of "putting lipstick on a pig" is inappropriate, unwarranted, and offensive to so many Vaisnavis. It's also an expression (even if, for argument's sake, it was applicable) of the logical fallacy known as "proof by selected instance" in which someone, in this case you, attempts to establish a general principle based on one or a few isolated events or examples. What about the hundreds and thousands of women who take second initiation and steadily, loyally, and determined follow their vows and the instructions of their guru? And what about the thousands of men who take first and second initiation but later give up the path? So, please, let's not genderize the issue of spiritual steadiness, because there are many bright, successful examples of good devotees both among men and among women.

[@StanG]

@@Kaunteyadas "This is just an interpretation of the facts; these are not facts." This is first hand testimony by someone who was actually there and at the center of the events. You just don't want to accept it because you manufactured some "facts" by your word wrangling. I was sure you were aware of this testimony but you still claimed there is no basis for the story and it's just an urban legend. This approach of yours reeks of intellectual dishonesty. You can't accept something and you invent various ways to get around it. Ironically, in this case you try to establish qualifications for being a brahmana.

[@bhaktilata-devidasi548]

Thank you for the service you‘re doing, dear Namarasa and Venkata Bata. I really appreciate your service! Through these episodes I get to know different devotees, viewpoints and topics are being discused in a for me healthy, balanced and friendly way. In this episode I was missing Namarasa‘s take on some points, maybe you were just comfortable listening. Best wishes for all three of you. Bhaktilatā

[@GaurapadaDas-hf3ri]

It really boggles my mind, who are these personalities who think that they have to ban you for expressing your concerns about a certain topic?

[@ClipFrenzyZone]

They are the deep star within iskcon.. More like the demonic state.

[@urukrama108]

Very good. A lot of common sense.

[@gracenote108]

This is one of the best interviews you've done. Hare Krishna.

[@GirishM-v7z]

Good interview. But Some observations: 1)9:20 The speaker brought ideas of anarchy, capitalism, communism etc and started relating to the Varna system. Serious questions needed to be asked about its validity. 2) 13:50 He lists only Brahmin, Vysya, Kshatriya going gurukula. Why no Sudras ? Don't they have the right to education ? 3) 14:00 When would Shudras come to Gurukula ? Is this the model of his Gurukula for ISKCON ? 4) 1:12:40 The interviewer says he is married to an educator. Women have no independent Varna status. He should have raised this question. What is Kaunteya Prabhu's idea of Varna for women independent of men in her life.

[@Kaunteyadas]

Thanks for raising these questions. Briefly: 1. Yes, the notion of how the four fundamental political setups connect or translate with the varnas would deserve more technical analysis and unpacking. 2. This only refers to some traditional Indian system of gurukula, not the one established and envisioned by Srila Prabhupada. He didn't divide the children of devotees in dvijas (brahmanas, ksatriyas, and vaisyas) and non-dvijas (sudras). 3. Everyone needs an education, especially for the cultivation of character and of bhakti; so a Krishna conscious full-immersion school (call it whatever you wish) is for everyone. 4. I wrote substantially on the myth that women have no varna status. From a number of perspectives (anuloma & pratiloma marriages, for instance, but also on the basis of Jyotisha) the notion is untenable. This is a short KZbin comment, but there is a whole section specifically on this topic in my book "Neo-Smartas - ISKCON's Greatest Danger" - which is downloadable for free at realvarnasrama.wordpress.com/ Thanks again for listening and for thinking about these important matters. These and many other subjects need thorough discussion for assimilation--what to speak of implementation.

[@GirishM-v7z]

@@Kaunteyadas Thank you for the reply. Will download and read your book. Regards, Girish

[@YoursTruly108-h4h]

38:56 Then what are to be made of these SP's statements? "The Manu-saṁhitā is the standard lawbook for humanity, and every human being is advised to follow this great book of social knowledge." -- SB 2.1.36 "Manu gave the law known as Manu-saṁhitā, which is full of directions based on varṇa and āśrama concerning how to live as a human being. These are very scientific ways of life, but under the rule of demons like Hiraṇyakaśipu, human society breaks all these systems of law and order and gradually becomes lower and lower. Thus there is no peace in the world. The conclusion is that if we want real peace and order in the human society, we must follow the principles laid down by the Manu-saṁhitā and confirmed by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa." -- SB 7.8.48

[@Kaunteyadas]

Thanks for your question. Yes, Srila Prabhupada did legitimize the Manu-samhita as a genuine source of social knowledge; at the same time he relativized its importance and relevance for Vaisnavas in a number of ways. For instance, he explained that Manu-samhita is karma-kanda, or that “Manu-saṁhitā is not religion. It is moral principles for conducting society. Religion is how to become devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That is religion.” (Morning Walk, Hyderabad, 20 April 1974). He also discouraged his disciples from dabbling in it. I wrote a series of posts entitled "What's Wrong with the Manu-samhita?" In it I list other issues with the the text available to us, such as the interpolations that crept in, completely misaligning the original message and instead promoting the birth-based caste system. In short, yes, the (original) Manu-samhita is fine (for certain times, places, and circumstances), but there are several problems with the version available to us.

[@BenSnelling-h6n]

Vedic varnashrama is just not possible or practical to be reintroduced in this age of Kali. Period. This sits well with me. It makes sense. I think if the leaders of the society were more black and white about this (not that we need more black and white rigidity in the society though - but on this one, i think it is actually helpful) then it would no doubt bring a lot more cohesion and 'groundedness' into the society...which is so much needed to move the society forward. Daiva varnashrama - yes. Vedic varnashrama no. The latter belongs to a bygone era, where as the former is much more appropriate and practical according to time, place and circumstance in this age of Kali.

[@nandagramecovillage3707]

Sorry to challenge, but are you saying that devotees should keep on moving the bar as Kali yuga progresses. Perhaps 100 years ago which is already 5000 years in to Kali Yuga, this idea of Gurukula would not have seemed so foreign and impossible. So what may seem Like a normal decent life now may seem impossible in the next 100 years

[@kanup5141]

​@@nandagramecovillage3707 not sure in what way they exactly might be distinguishing vedic from daivi varnasrama, but they seem to be suggesting that modernity has rendered most aspects of varnasrama as a medieval fantasy throwback that no devotees are really interested in (ie no move to land based economy ... we basically just LARP with cows to land donations for their upkeep, and not develop economies based on cow protection etc). There does seem to be a sense that varnasrama is packaged like a magical post apocalyptic fable ... ie we just require something like nuclear war or some other civilizational collapse to usher in the golden age (as if having clean environments and social order, eg the great chain of being, were just inconsequential or automatically developed props in premodern civilizations). When it comes to varnasrama, it seems we have an almost schizophrenic identity, simultaneously embedded in the grammar of modernity (centralized constitutional religious institution etc) while alluding to some sort of ethic of premodernity.

[@nandagramecovillage3707]

@@kanup5141 Great comment, we can not keep on cherry picking and adjusting our value system according to what feels good in our hearts. Krishna and his authorities set the standard and we need to work towards the highest ideals. I understand that right now it seems like an impossibility, but devotees should not disregard or alter the actual standard, just because we are attached to our modern world view. We need to look at where this modern world view is leaving us spiritually and then judge if it is actually working.

[@BenSnelling-h6n]

@@nandagramecovillage3707 challenges are fine, that creates dialogue :) The central point of my comment is that we need to understand better the different types of varnashrama. Vedic varnashrama is actually a very strict system that existed in a very different world to what we have now. In Vedic varnashrama for examples members of the sannyasa ashrama are not allowed to cross water. Now, imagine going to all the sannyasins in ISKCON and telling them they now can't cross the ocean because of needing to follow the rules of Vedic varnashrama? It would impede their outreach efforts, and therefore less opportunities to spread what is the central gem of our tradition - and that is nurturing the growth of Krsna bhakti in the hearts of others. Caitanya Mahaprabhu's focus was on bhakti - not varnashrama. However as there is a sort of natural occurring varnashrama in society anyway (there are always going to be skilled workers, business people, managers and thinkers, students, married people, retired people and monks) we can simply use whatever situation we are in to focus on the growth of Krsna bhakti in one's own heart and as far as possible, giving this gift to others - the essential foundation of our society - at that point we are talking Daiva (or divine) varnashrama. Ideally, the leaders can spend more time on education in this regard and the nuances of the different types of varnashrama, otherwise confusion on this subject matter predominates.

[@nandagramecovillage3707]

@@BenSnelling-h6n Thank you, I understand that principle, but still there needs to be a culture that should be adopted that is in line with universal laws set out by God. Otherwise, it becomes very difficult to practice bhakti in the real-world situations. I understand that we are way too degraded to follow the vedic standard, but we need to draw the line and I hope that there is enough in Prabhupadas instructions to tell us where that line is. I do know that he instructed devotees to have farm communities and not live in the ugra karma society. This is unfortunately being sidelined as impractical...why? "Because we say so". Devotees can say that it was attempted and didn't work, but as was mentioned, the same could be said for marriage, but that doesn't seem to deter anyone.

[@ИринаШевчук-р7э]

Very interesting topic👍🏻 could you please give a link to a full podcast?

[@NamarasaPodcast]

this is the link to the full podcast (it has not released yet).

[@ИринаШевчук-р7э]

@@NamarasaPodcast oops sorry, commented on a different video. I meant full podcast of this short kzbin.infoGy0pWPS_w3M?si=ghQsSiuquIquCRXA

[@NamarasaPodcast]

@@ИринаШевчук-р7э also not released

[@ИринаШевчук-р7э]

@@NamarasaPodcast 🙏 thank you, will wait for it

[@vnigsu]

You missed double clicking into a very interesting dichotomy that was presented withing a few mins of each other i.e. in one moment it was stated that brahmanical initiation for women was a principle and not an emergency as it happened for 9 years AND in the next question when it came to women diksha gurus, nobody pushed that for the same 9 years, Prabhupada did not set them as such.... so would have been good if the moderator/interviewer would have pushed and clarified the dichotomy there....

[@NamarasaPodcast]

not understanding the point your making here, can you please restate?

[@vnigsu]

@@NamarasaPodcast the conversation at one point was about women brahmanas and prabhu made the point that SP had done it for 9 years so it was a principle... Then the next question was on women diksha guru but the same lens was not applied for that i.e. for 9 years SP did not have women diksha gurus... So it would have been good to hear prabhu's views on that as he is for both the points and there is a dichotomy in the stance there. Hope that was stated better, if not then maybe I'm not stating it correctly.

[@NamarasaPodcast]

@@vnigsu I understand your point but not just FDG, but no diksa guru was discussed until the very end. So neither male nor female diksa gurus.

[@vnigsu]

@@NamarasaPodcast Understand and hence the comment that the moderator/interviewer should have pressed the point then so we could see how prabhu balances the two points. All good.

[@Kaunteyadas]

Thank you; it's actually a good point and, yes, we could have discussed more about Vaisnavi diksa-gurus (VDG) but the discussion went to other topics. Here I am sharing a couple of short considerations. 1. In the nine years in which Srila Prabhupada kept giving second initiation to both men and women (1968-1977), there weren't any diksa-gurus (besides Srila Prabhupada), neither men nor women. Therefore to understand what Srila Prabhupada wanted for the future we need to go to his instructions, this one for instance: "I want that all of my spiritual sons and daughters will inherit this title of Bhaktivedanta, so that the family transcendental diploma will continue through the generations. Those possessing the title of Bhaktivedanta will be allowed to initiate disciples. Maybe by 1975, all of my disciples will be allowed to initiate and increase the numbers of the generations. That is my program." (Letter to Hamsadutta, 3 Jan 1969). 2. This is a short, KZbin comment, for more on the topic you may want to download the book "Did Srila Prabhupada Want Women Diksa Gurus?" available for free here: realvarnasrama.wordpress.com/ It addresses many arguments, including the one that says "“Srila Prabhupada did not appoint women diksa-gurus in 1977; therefore women should not become diksa-gurus." You find the debunking of that at page 128.

[@penlight5289]

That Feminism which makes women better preachers , better kirtan leaders , better Temple presidents ect ect , We need more of that Feminism. But that Feminism that mirrors the Kaliyuga , Karmi world , That Feminism comes with 2 main problems that is becoming more and more a problem in society at Large. Those 2 problems are women being indoctrinated into Divorce Lifestyle and Abortion. Pregnancy and the Divorce Lifestyle go together like oil and water. This indoctrination of Pro Abortion starts in the very big Universities and colleges . Women are indoctrinated into thinking that Marriage and pregnancy will mess up their careers and their chances of reaching their highest potential. Fortunately Dr Jordan Peterson has made considerably strides to counter this kind of propaganda in the most prestigious universities in the west

[@SyamantakaLila]

Thank you for this sad, tragic, but true considerations. Abortion allures those unaware of the laws of nature and, instead of the freedom they seek, they get trapped into terrifying consequences. Kaunteya Das put together a booklet on the subject, downloadable for free here: realvarnasrama.wordpress.com/2024/05/10/new-free-book-abortion-no-thanks/

[@ishaanshetty3853]

Naamras: weak face requires an enemy 💪 Venkat Bhatta: ooh say that again 🤩 Naamaras: WEAK FAITH REQUIRES AN ENEMY 🗿🗿🗿 😂😂😂an epic ending

[@NamarasaPodcast]

@@ishaanshetty3853 faith* not face. 😬

[@ishaanshetty3853]

@ my apologies 🙇‍♂️🙇‍♂️

[@HareKrsnaHareRama]

Srila Prabhupada wrote, “Next you ask if I am present in my picture and form? Yes. In form as well as in teachings.” Sept. 4, 1972, he wrote, “There is no difference between me and my picture”.

[@gracenote108]

Pictures don't respond back when you ask them questions.

[@notinterested8452]

The picture didn't threaten you, demonise you unfairly or ban you from the temples because you're inconvenient. ​@@gracenote108say something else.

[@bardolartist6929]

potato kula ki jay

[@luzpv108]

He return to the same place and devotees where happened all? Maybe he resoluted it far with other people, devotees or not, don't believe? Then wait us...

[@selfsavior]

What ?😂

[@selfsavior]

When google translate goes wrong 😂

[@luzpv108]

@@selfsavioryes 😂 excuse me for perturbated your understanding 🤯 you are a simpathic person (maybe great devotee) very intuitive and empathic👌thanks and🙏to Paramatma and your soul in your heart ☺️

[@selfsavior]

@luzpv108 lol I know it's definitely a language barrier. What were you trying to say Prabhuji? Maybe I can translate your meaning better

[@luzpv108]

@@selfsaviorjajaja... No hay problema de verdad, no eres el 1o en decirme acerca de mi inglés, pero si eres el 1o en ofrecerse para saber lo que quiero decir y traducirlo. No sé cómo es que se publicó este comentario, a veces hago comentarios en inglés para practicar un poco y luego los borro, así creía que había sido éste, sólo los dejo cuando quiero preguntar o comentar algo en específico. Aprovechando entonces tu ofrecimiento lo desarrollaré un poco más... Las preguntas son en relación a cuando alguien sufrió o padeció algo en un lugar determinado (gurukula, ashram, templo...) ¿qué sería lo más saludable para sanar, volver al mismo lugar con las mismas personas que fueron parte de...? O ¿Resolverlo por fuera con o sin devotos y una vez resuelto regresar con ellos mismos si la persona así lo siente y quiere o ir a otro lado de igual forma? Eso no quiere decir que no pueda interactuar con ellos y visitar ese sitio. Gracias Prabhuji o Mataji?🙏 yo soy mujer, y aunque algunos piensen que soy lesbiana por estar sola, no lo soy🙂

[@ClipFrenzyZone]

Lol😂 he says one one podcast 😂😂😂😂only in his mind is it number one.

[@haribol7404]

Gaudya Vaisnavism has nothing to do with Varnashram.

[@SyamantakaLila]

Since when? Gaudiya-vaisnavism always had brahmacaris, grihasthas, vanaprasthas, and sannyasis.Temporary designations and their respective duties aren't the ultimate goal, of course, but when performed appropriately they are essential instruments for living a civilized, harmonious life and for progressing toward the goal.

[@manymonkeyes]

Sannyasa was established by Bhaktisiddhanta Thakur, before him there was only grihastha and babaji

[@haribol7404]

@@manymonkeyes this was a deviation and concoction from Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati.

[@SyamantakaLila]

@@manymonkeyes What?!?! Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Himself took sannyasa, and he was pretty Gaudiya... It might have not been an aspect too emphasized in the next few centuries, but I encourage you to read Srila Prabhupada's elaboration on the subject in Caitanya-caritamrita, Madhya-lila 3.6, which includes statements such as, "The most intimate devotee of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, namely Gadādhara Paṇḍita, accepted tridaṇḍa-sannyāsa and also accepted Mādhava Upādhyāya as his tridaṇḍi-sannyāsī disciple."

[@manymonkeyes]

​@@SyamantakaLilaFirst of all, Mahaprabhu took sannyasa from a mayavadi, sorry that's not Gaudiya sannyasa! And kshetra sannyasa (Gadadhara Pandita took kshetra sannyasa) is basically babaji-vesha! So, thank you for proving my point. 😂

[@advaitanundoo3587]

Just whacky speculations.

[@NamarasaPodcast]

@@advaitanundoo3587 should we ask you why or are you just looking to make a fool of yourself via KZbin comments?