Keeping Commander Casual | Untitled Magic: The Gathering Podcast #3

[@TolarianCommunityCollege]

Hey everyone, would mean a great deal if you took a minute to click and watch my newest video, "Merfolkless Merfolk | A $50 Budget Pioneer Mono Blue Tempo Deck" here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/boPGkGqXq9Jol80

[@lolimmune]

Shivam's comment seems to have disappeared. Did he delete it? Was it removed? Am i just not finding it?

[@bcbaprep]

@@lolimmunelol

[@PleasantKenobi]

About to sit down and sleeve up a Commander deck, need something to put on in the background, and this pops up on Discord. Perfect.

[@robertschneider779]

When did this guy make a KZbin channel?

[@GrandpasMagic]

@@robertschneider779 this guy has a youtube channel??

[@Izuyoi7215]

U have a stream?

[@chaoticjexak]

is it steamed crabmander by any chance?

[@WeirdSchizo]

I was about to do the same with my newly acquired Locust God deck 👌

[@crovax1375]

I keep it casual in commander by not wearing pants during the game

[@thestormtrooperwhocanaim496]

Classic strat. Might make people uncomfortable, but *you* are feeling very comfortable. That is when you can play the best/most creative.

[@0megamanX]

Damnit! There goes my Hurloon Wrangler strat.

[@milohobo9186]

Denimwalk won't work against you, darn!

[@crovax1375]

@@milohobo9186 ? My denim t-top don't come off for nobody!

[@MrVotiga]

"Jace's Whatever" (2)(U) Instant Counter target spell, or not. It doesn't matter anyway.

[@sarahmiller4980]

MrVotiga Maybe it has X in the cost, but doesn’t mention X in the rules text. I guess.

[@colinhanrath5351]

Make this an un card

[@sandwichboy1268]

"Jace's Whatever (2)(U) Creature - illusion Flash When you cast Jace's Whatever, you may counter target spell or ability. When Jace's Whatever gets countered, target player mills 10 cards.

[@Ravenpoe121]

My only addition as someone who plays a lot of cEDH is that "competitive" Commander is also casual. It's still just games with friends and hanging out, just with much more powerful decks and an understanding that nothing is off limits. In a weird way I actually find cEDH more social, because no one ever gets salty about a card someone is playing.

[@finalshade14]

Thank you! The salt in casual is unbearable

[@BrandoCalrizzien]

THIS!!!

[@BrandoCalrizzien]

Example. Armageddon doesn’t matter when only 30 out of 45 of your mana sources are lands.

[@rhozpogi]

dude your so right, NO ONE CRIES after anyh cedh, but in casuals? heaven forbid u cast a overloaded cyclonic rift and see all the salt just flowing. none of that in cedh community.

[@Amyas80s]

Semantics

[@BrandoCalrizzien]

Cedh players don’t want to win on turn 2 with a bunch of casual decks. We want a full pod of cedh decks.

[@Kozi15]

Agreed, those players are not cEDH player my dude they are pub stompers.

[@xChikyx]

yeah, also, players with cEDH decks in casual tables suck... Not too long ago I was playing a 6 people table and a guy won on his turn 2 while the rest of us only had tapped lands in play... 🙄😒

[@F3A5T]

cEDH isn't about winning in my book. It is about fighting through all of the interaction to get to the win. If you win without ever being interacted with, it feels hollow and leaves an empty feeling.

[@assaultnya6233]

Yeah, and mislabeling cEDH, and cEDH players, like this just makes people scared of it.

[@d.w.7203]

@@F3A5T "cEDH isn't about winning in my book." You don't seem to understand cedh, dude. Sorry. : / If I win with my cedh deck turn 1 without a battle, I feel great, because that was amazing.

[@philippbayer866]

Shivam points out painterservant Combo for cedh and I smile forgivingly, sleeving up thassas oracle for flashhulk.

[@oateater5044]

It's no good! It only kills one person, Shivam!

[@glocca]

Lmfaooo I’ve been playing sushi hulk for a couple weeks now

[@glocca]

Scott Schauben, it’ll win before you’re able to get enough stax going. Better mull for that Void lol or your rip

[@llamacandy9894]

Yeh dont know if any viable cedh deck runs painters servant grindstone

[@glocca]

Definitely not.

[@MrInvisibleJ]

Shivam makes cEDH players sound like pub stompers. They aren't. Pub stompers are the ones who show up to a casual table, knowing it's a casual table, and do they're best to make sure no one but them play Magic. cEDH players want to play a full competitive pod where everyone knows what's going to happen.

[@toddlowrey189]

MrInvisibleJ isn’t knowing what’s gonna happen go against what edh is about?

[@MrInvisibleJ]

@@toddlowrey189 you have a rough idea, a casual table will probably spend the first couple turns ramping then probably play some big dumbs or some synergy pieces. Cedh will spend the first turn or two ramping then start deploying combo pieces, while holding up interaction like counter spells or similar

[@WGG-01]

I think people just mix up cedh people with competitive people with a ton of money that just want to win but aren't really at cedh level. Like the lgs I go to runs a casual 5 dollar tournament and the only prize for winning the two rounds is an extra booster pack aside from the one you get just for entering yet some people randomly show up with 5000 dollar decks and are unbeatable to the majority of the store and think that is okay cause it is a tournament not taking into account that people actually wanna play.

[@MrInvisibleJ]

@@WGG-01 that's the exact idea cedh people are trying to correct. Cause being called that a-hole is not fair to people who just enjoy powerful magic

[@patrickschmidt6140]

@@toddlowrey189 I completely agree. I sit down with my friends and we decide what kind of game we're gonna play. Sometimes I'm playing Jhoira or Kykar, and other times I'm playing Feather. We just enjoy lots of interaction and we like to play the powerful stuff sometimes.

[@shaker9356]

I think the most important thing said in the podcast was "it's about how your opponents feel when they leave the table". That's been my main philosophy for years from the deck building stage all the way to the win. If I win and my friends didn't have a good time I didn't really win.

[@Diogolindir]

My playgroup is very small and hard to ensamble since we are all adults. They like when someone wins but they feel like they could have done something to prevent that win. So I want my decks to feel fair for them for I want to respect my friends's time

[@queequeg00]

this is so good!

[@Camozuk]

I don't like how "casual commander " means only play the cards I like and don't interrupt what I'm doing. The whole point of magic is to interact with the other players gameplan. 4 people playing solitaire is not magic.

[@nosrin1988]

you can have interaction without countering every single card your opponent plays.

[@Drazatis]

Nos Rin part of Shivam’s argument against stax like effects were that you get to sit there and watch your opponent play magic; if you don’t interact with your opponents board state then what are you doing? Watching your opponents play magic. Have your own fun, but playing 60 creatures and enchantments and no interaction is not my idea of a fun time.

[@JMMarkulin]

Nos Rin not according to this guy

[@Camozuk]

@@nosrin1988 counterspells or artifact destruction are not stax effects. An untapped island on turn one doesn't mean you can't cast spells. Learn to play around spell pierce, don't make greedy keeps on your opening 7, be prepared to do more then just dump your hand in the first few turns.Casual magic should still be functional magic.

[@nimenpalac454]

@@Camozuk An island of common sense in a sea of "casual players" that just want to play wombastic cards and no interaction.

[@LocalGameGroup]

Shivam really needs to watch some of the Competitive Channels out there... I love your work Brian, but I couldn’t make it through this one (and that doesn’t fall on you here). There is a *social aspect* to competitive. That doesn’t take a backseat just because we’re trying to win games. I like the challenge a table of four competitive lists brings, but beyond that I love playing with my pals. Trust me, it takes a lot for four grown adults to gather around a table to game: we’re not doing it to ram each other into the ground, that’s simply a byproduct of going against my Selvala 🧙‍♂️ Keep up the great work and thank you for keeping all your interview(ee)s honest. PS - Painter Servant + Grindstone only knocks out one Opponent at a time. 🙅‍♂️ No one’s on it. Same reason us Competitives avoid Helm of Obedience + RiP (if we can).

[@maddiebuscemi2267]

Agreed. CEDH has this rep for being a spiky mean format, and it isnt at all. Its the same as regular commander but with high powered decks. Most people don't play in tournaments. Its mostly the same idea of a few people sitting around a table playing decks they find fun, just they win faster and are more efficient.

[@darkjigoo]

This is essentially what I wanted to say. Everyone in the competitive pod still wants to have fun playing Magic, the decks that are being used happen to be extremely strong. We like the feeling of playing powerful cards against other powerful cards, and I believe that's something that literally EVERYONE who plays Magic can relate to. Edit: also forgot to mention that I thoroughly enjoy your channel and currently Im also putting together your Teshar list for fun

[@finalshade14]

Exactly my guy

[@MrFlayer4]

I get it, games are mostly fast, but almost every game is chock-full of interaction and decision making. Honestly I can't anymore play a game that is "four ships passing in the night" for 2 hours straight. Faster games means that I get to see more of my deck, more of my opponent's deck and more importantly I get to play with more people. And we're all are know what to expect from a game so noone will be surprised that sombody comboed at turn 3 or you got staxed out of the game. All the points he made for casual play are 100% true for cEDH. We all play for fun and I glad that format like edh exist.

[@CAF-Esports-ROOK]

@@maddiebuscemi2267 tournament EDH also plays a lot different than your average cEDH game.

[@darkjigoo]

I have to say, I feel like the mark was missed here while the topic was on Competitive EDH. I would love to see you bring on someone from the Spike Feeders or something to see how actual cEDH players view cEDH.

[@MJnyxstar]

Yeah that was a bit out of scope. I play legacy and have a really optimized deck, but we're not the win hungry fellows they describe. We just want cool and powerful interactions and decisions. I think they should have started with the psychometrics to explain what players research : all competitive player have a lot of spike in them, but often also a lot of something else.

[@TheSpikeFeeders]

Prof very graciously offered to fly me out to talk cEDH several weeks ago. It's coming, I just have to get time of from my day job approved! Jim

[@MJnyxstar]

@@TheSpikeFeeders I wish one of you guys were in the commander committee too, it's really scary to see how disconnected they appear in this kind of videos.

[@patrickschmidt6140]

@@MJnyxstar Exactly, and the thinking for the banlist is so flawed it's funny. He talks about how some cards are too good, but the list of cards unbanned are way stupider. There shouldn't be a banlist. Period. And honestly my thought is hey, play whatever you want with your friends, but it sucks how much financial power they have. Like when Paradox Engine got banned and went from I think around 40+ to 5$ That just hurts all the people who picked one up in the weeks before to play with.

[@lolimmune]

I prefer cEDH because there is no misunderstandings. No one is surprised when someone cyc-rifts, no one is just staring at the table with their minotaur tribal deck. No one gets mad because some one uses removal or counterspells to stop them from winning. cEDH is still social and its still fun. cEDH also has Considerablely less salt and anger. The guy playing across doesnt get mad cuz I combo off. cEDH players go "oh i lost! Good game, go again?" Many casual games ive played will start out as "oh my decks like a 7/10" me,"oh ok i'll play my derpy tribal deck" then i eat them alive because they have no idea how to judge power levels. Then they immediately get salty and cry about cedh without knowing what cedh decks even look like.

[@persephone9360]

....anyway

[@CraigArgyleAudio]

Exactly my take. Casual edh players have been more toxic than they claim competitive to be, like needy children.

[@SvviftDeath]

The moment someone gets salty about the deck I'm playing is when I do one of two things. First/best option is try to explain the differences between our decks and offer advice for cheap replacements to improve their deck while still making it casual and fun to play. Second option is if they are refusing to listen or take advice and want to still complain about deck power level play my best deck next (not cedh T1 but still T 1.5 - 2, Karador Hulk Combo) and show them first hand the difference in power. I almost never resort to option 2 but sometimes you have to put people in their place. I'm also converting the deck to Sushi Hulk once I get the blue cards I'm missing and switching the commander to Tymna/Thrasios. I know it's meta but I've been playing Karador since it was first released and I was planning the switch to Breakfast/Shuffle Hulk before Thassa's Oracle was spoiled and that made it all the more sweeter for me.

[@lewdycutey3988]

this is why I started playing with the cedh group near me and stopped 'casual' pods all together. casual pods are full of toxic whiners who cant evaluate their own decks or even other cards. considering painters and the other bs in this vid its clear that goes all the way to the RC.

[@kdchmln]

this is more a knock against playing with strangers than playing casual edh. i play casual edh with the same friends every week and none of this nonsense would fly.

[@DylanSweeney]

cEDH player here. A lot of what Shivam is saying about casual is also true about cedh. He says casual is about playing your favorite cards, but my favorite cards are the really good ones. I like necropotence and force of will because they are good cards. He says for casual " I want to win but I still want to hang out with you." I still wanna hang out with my friends when we're playing cedh. If I lose it's whatever we still played a good game. Just cause I want to win mean doesn't mean I'm miserable if I don't. its not a "casual players want to have fun" VS "competitive players wants to win" thing. I want to have fun. Winning is fun. Creating an efficient, consistent strategy is fun. I think the difference between casual and competitive is purely a mindset change. casual players play to play competitive players play to win

[@MrGreenixx]

Dylan Sweeney I prefer cedh because it features a lot more interaction on the stack and decision making compared to casual.

[@finalshade14]

@@MrGreenixx spot on my guy

[@Kozi15]

Agreed on this, FUN is very SUBJECTIVE whats Fun for him might not be fun for us and vice-versa. He keeps preaching and preaching and preaching that casual commanders should be fun? Like what heck cEDH is fun for me.

[@luiscases5049]

Dylan Sweeney Exactly there’s so much interaction in cEDH and decision making that makes the games into a huge puzzle to solve especially while playing meta pod

[@fingerling1231]

Well said. I was going to comment something similar. You can still socialise while playing cEDH but the conversation tends to be more dictated by interactions within the game. I like cEDH because your deck always has a shot of doing something in a game rather than getting stomped by the deck that got a lucky draw while you're struggling to set up.

[@NightKnigth1]

I would love to see prof cosplaying Leovold once his hair grows back.

[@kyleerwin3555]

And then he could make a really “evil” themed deck tech ahaha

[@andrelee7081]

@@kyleerwin3555 That sounds right up the Instructor's alley

[@GreenestTrampler]

As always, it's about mindset. I'm a very casual budget commander player, so I'm going to be miserable playing a cEDH level deck. However, theres absolutely nothing wrong with cEDH. If that's how they wanna play and enjoy it, then that's great. It comes down to communication amongst players to know what everyone wants out of a game.

[@Boi10217]

cEDH can actually be very budget friendly, as most play groups actively encourage proxies. The goal is to play with the best cards so that the winner is the best player/pilot, not the one with the most money.

[@jamespooh2]

I agree! I like winning and I like being competitive but my decks are still super casual and can play with almost anyone. With that being said not hate toward cedh. Just not my thing and that's cool

[@jamespooh2]

@@Boi10217 I think it's more of a gameplay thing than a cost thing. Casual vs. Cedh is super different in terms of gameplay and I cant speak for the op but I like watching play with power and other channels but I couldn't see myself putting time and energy into it. Just not my way to play but respect to you

[@GreenestTrampler]

James, exactly. There is a different mindset. I've played competitively in various formats, so I k ow theres a difference in mindset. A good example: I have a four color group hug deck. It's not meant to win. I enjoy it in my play groups as much as my other decks. You couldnt take that kind of deck and get the same feeling to a cEDH game. It's not a bad thing. Just different.

[@ferdithetank7535]

TL; DL: When you're going to play, make sure everyone gets to have fun in some way.

[@TolarianCommunityCollege]

For those who want to listen to previous episodes of this and "Dies To Removal," episodes get uploaded on Apple, Soundcloud, etc. several days after they air here. See the links below or just search on your favorite podcast listening app! Apple: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/dies-to-removal/id1444537761 SoundCloud: soundcloud.com/tolariancommunitycollege/how-to-evaluate-your-commander-decks-power-level-untitled-magic-the-gathering-podcast-1

[@brianlezama2263]

Hey Prof! Why not call these podcasts 'Tea With The Comi-tee'?

[@darkice12321]

Prof, I'll build a non tutor deck to sit down with. I'm in the Portland area too

[@PedroViniciusBCPires]

cEDH is about socialization too. We enjoy playing with people with the same power lvl and we hang out with them and have a great time! But we choose the most optimized way to play and build. cEDH is about answers and be relevant through all the game.

[@ArmadilloAl]

Prof on Saturday: "Every mono-colored deck should run Dust Bowl!" Shivam on Tuesday: "I took Dust Bowl out of my mono-colored deck because it makes everybody miserable!"

[@jalchi8367]

Titania is not very mono coloured

[@dannylut9711]

@@jalchi8367 How so?

[@justwrath2049]

It's plainly visible that Prof and Shivam are not exactly on the same page as to what's healthy in casual commander, but that Prof is willing to give the spotlight to Shivam's point of view.

[@PiroMunkie]

What blows my mind is that he took them out because he was blowing up other people's lands... in a Titania deck. You could just blow up your own lands instead. The cards don't specify that it has to be an opponent's land. With multiple exploration effects in play and a crucible/excavator, you could very easily put 20+ power in play in a single turn. Just design your deck with a low CMC and go ham on your own lands.

[@Slashoom]

Its weird how Shivam explains what casual EDH is, "Trying to win, but hanging out and having a good time." I don't see how cEDH is any different, except everyone is playing highly optimized decks. It seems like he thinks pubstompers are synonymous with cEDH, which isn't correct.

[@steveng6721]

Well he is apparently a fucking idiot my man

[@theweebchannel4850]

cEDH = play to win, EDH = play to have fun and don't care if win or lose. That's how I view it. Tho, this is very biased as I don't know a single person personally who plays cEDH.

[@V2ULTRAKill]

@@theweebchannel4850 yeah youre wrong cEDH has the exact same mentality as casual edh its just the decks have a power level on another scale

[@youcube7505]

"Some cards are just inherently broken" Me looks at banlist. Looks at copious amounts of fast mana. Yea okay

[@TheHMinnow]

@@jakemaxwell3810 its a casual format. Just social contract unban and proxy.

[@samverick]

@@TheHMinnow why even have an official banlist at that point?

[@justwrath2049]

@@samverick In my mind, the official banlist is for two things : 1) cards that are both really ubiquitous AND really unaffordable, like most of the power 9 (Timetwister is the exception because it's not ubiquitous enough, and Sol Ring gets a pass solely (pun intended) because it's affordable), and 2) cards that even people who don't want to abuse the game are going to run without thinking about it, that overwhelm and ruin games easily (prime example (pun intended) being Primeval Titan). I'm certainly not saying the current banlist is doing a perfect job of these two things, but I think that's what it's trying to do, and I appreciate what it's trying to do.

[@steveng6721]

The rules committee are a fucking joke and I dont even think they really understand the format

[@somedudeontheinterwebs45]

Just Wrath then why is library of Alexandria banned but bazaar of Baghdad isn’t? The argument could be made that bazaar does more to influnce the game than library, as library draws a couple of cards for free, while bazaar gives free discard and dredge triggers. Both cards cost over a thousand and Library is a colorless nonbasic land, shut down by pretty much any land hate. Both cards would only see play at an established players’ or cedh table, which means that both cards will be significantly worse(back to basics, blood moon, strip mine, etc). (No hate btw, I just wanted to bring the point up)

[@connor9x9]

Here's a better definition of cEDH: You play the most efficient spells at the most mana cost-effective slots. cEDH is the legacy of commander. It doesn't mean it's mean-spirited or non-social, it's just a higher power level of cards with much more interactivity than your typical pod of commander.

[@andrewlaverghetta715]

connor9x9 that seems good to me. Because of those highly efficient, interactive plays, it doesn’t leave room for most commanders and doesn’t leave room for people to do the unique things that people traditionally do in commander.

[@sephyrias883]

cEDH does definitely not count as "more interactive". cEDH decks may be filled with more counterspells and removal, but the games also end sooner.

[@sephyrias883]

@Kathryn Rivera Casual EDH games also aren't just 6 turns long. I'm very confident that casual play ends up being a lot more interactive, especially if you consider combat and not just instants.

[@andrewmarinkovich8657]

Players (such as Shivam) who are looking for a more casual gameplay experience probably would label most cEDH decks as mean-spirited. And that's OK. The Commander "social contract" exists at all levels of play, from casual to competitive. If everybody at a table is playing a cEDH deck then those players are going to be OK with their opponents casting the most oppressive stax and combo pieces in the game. That's what cEDH players sign up for. The challenge of cEDH is not just to win quickly but to stop other decks who are also trying to win as quickly as possible, and be the one who can prevail in such an environment. Commander players who are unfamiliar with cEDH often deride it as a format where all games are over by turn 3 or 4. Sure, that does happen, and when it does you move on to the next game and try to do it again. But I've played in plenty of cEDH games that go on for an hour or more. The format can also be very grindy.

[@andrewmarinkovich8657]

I think the bigger issue is defining power level of "casual" EDH decks. I've seen plenty of high-powered "casual" decks that are miserable to play against. Those decks can wreak havoc at casual tables where people are just looking to have fun and play extended games. At least cEDH is very well-defined in that regard. Casual EDH is the format that is not well-defined and where you often have massive power inequality at any given table.

[@Guccibear100]

While winning is important, MTG has always just been an excuse to hang out with my play group. Especially as we get older, and myself moving soon. I've bought so many boxes lately just so every weekend I could fire off a free draft. Only a few of us are into EDH, but no one can resist a free draft. (I buy the box and keep the cards, everyone drafts for free. I also bought bulk sleeves for everyone.) We do ignore the EDH banlist, if you want to play Iona, Grislebrand, Braids? We will simply gang up on you.

[@KumaKaori]

Time to craft some cubes, from all that draft chaff ;)?

[@Guccibear100]

@@KumaKaori Exactly, I did 2 Modern Horizon, and a Battle bond. Everything else is still in standard, but Whoo boy I have some cube ideas ready to go!

[@matthewwizardify]

I dunno, it's hard to table correct for some things. If you table hate someone into the stone age, then that person is not playing. If you don't hate enough, their combo goes off. Most of the time, I prefer the banlist so that people don't feel compelled to play some combination of blue/ black so that you can interact enough to avoid losing

[@KitsuLeif]

I can only speak for myself here: I play EDH to have fun. As long as I feel it was a great game, I don't care if I win or lose. Heck, I even have a Tuvasa deck with the main goal to force a draw with Enchanted Evening + Ajani's Chosen/Archon of Sun's Grace, because when no one wins, there are no losers, right? And I also play cEDH to have fun, but on another powerlevel. Of course a powerlevel that everyone agreed on. And of course, in cEDH I want to win. But in cEDH every player is on the same level. No one gets mad at certain cards, because that's what cEDH is about. Play the best of the best. So yeah, even though if I play to win, fun is still the main reason why I play. I have a deck for almost every powerlevel, from upgraded Precon (Kadena) to cEDH (Fblthp, G-E Kefnet), and of course communication before a game of Commander is key.

[@michaelkierum42]

I define casual as pulling blows if somebody is having bad time. making plays for thr lols. flavor wins etc. I have a tuned deck for cedh and thats fine as long as everybody at table wants that.

[@CreditedJester2]

If i see my freind across the table and they are having a hard time getting lands then i help them out abit and Armageddon. :)

[@michaelkierum42]

@@CreditedJester2 funny story I took my cedh deck to major tourny and got slammed. second game took out a thrown together enchantments deck and it turns out NOBODY likes when I turn their commander into a land or frog or icy pop.

[@BigBadJango]

Playing torment of hailfire as a pseudo board wipe is akin to playing mass land destruction or an overloaded rift without a followup: annoying to everyone at the table. I use hailfire as the finisher in my Korvold lands deck, where one of the finishers is to use boseiju and squandered resources to create a giant uncounterable hailfire to win. The game needs to end eventually, and I think I'm allowed to do so if I have 15+ lands on board to generate 30+ Mana. Also, some the comments made make it sound like you can't play aggressively in "casual" commander. You should be allowed to punish people for doing nothing before turn 6 or 7 and if you aren't running interaction or board wipes to hold off an aggressive playstyle early then that is your fault not the fault of the player attacking you. I like to build low to the ground and efficient regardless of the win condition or intended competitiveness of the deck, but this episode makes it sound like efficient cards aren't fun, which is not true. Efficient cards allow you to do more early in a game, which sounds fun to me.

[@QuicksilverSG]

Play to Win, an explicitly CEDH KZbin channel, published a list of Casual Commander guidelines. I think they summarize it well: * No infinite loop combos * No instant win cards * No mana-positive rocks (except Sol Ring) * No urestricted tutors costing less than 3 mana * No zero-cost counter spells * No off-color fetch lands * No cards valued over $100 The only point I'd differ with is card value which I think should be limited to $25 max.

[@WafflesSamoyed]

"We can still be keeping it casual while playing the most hardcore, aggressively competitive decks there is." If you're going to set up a dichotomy of "casual vs competitive" and you define casual as "literally any deck, as long as you're all on the same page" that means that you've stuck competitive with the definition of "pubstomping." I see we're falling in line with the "cEDH players are all bad and mean" sentiment.

[@elephantbat]

First off, love the content. Keep it up. Disclaimer: My preferred level of commander is casual. Battlecruiser to optimized, some decks possibly borderline pubstompy but everyone was on the same page.(everyone playing powerful but we wouldn't do so hot in a cEDH pod) I used to really dislike cEDH and the(my supposed) idea of it, for some of the same reasons outlined in the video. Context: I had a great playgroup of about 10 people that would get together all the time to play fun, powerful, and at times whacky decks.(there's that rule of three) However, I eventually moved and found that the game store in my new area had a commander night on Mondays. I started going and observed that the players most consistently there played cEDH. They had casual decks too, for when they were in a casual pod, but they preferred competitive. What surprised me was that before every game, if someone was new to the pod or they did not know the player, they would have a quick power level pow wow to avoid any games where someone would feel left out. As time went on I decided I would build a cEDH deck, for those times when only people playing cEDH were at commander night. As I was putting the deck together (Urza because of the cheap mono-colored mana base, that and I had some of the pieces) I studied, learning the nuances and the ideals behind playing competitively. (you probably saw this coming after the "life story") My whole perspective changed when I realized that it's not, finding more fun in winning, unenjoying the social aspect of the game as much, or being cutthroat. It is about making the most correct play at the correct time. (I'm pretty sure it's impossible to get it 100%) A good example of this is: Player A is at 35, Player B is at 16, Player C is in combat and can swing for 3 damage. (a huge swing, right?) Most of the time, if there is an opportunity to bring an opponent closer to losing, that is the path Player C will take. However, in a casual game, Player C might attack A because that player blew up their value enchantment earlier.(definitely my style) Another way of thinking about it would be this. Say there are two combo decks in your pod, A and B again. Both A and B have everything they need to win on board but it's A's turn and B needs an untap. A is about to go for it but you, C, have interaction that will stop the combo. Stopping A won't win you the game, you will just be giving the game to B. Unless they're feeling silly, the competitive player will allow the win and shuffle up for another. A casual Player C, in the same scenario, (I've definitely done this) might play the king-maker role because earlier Player A stole their goblin token and sacrificed it. ("It was just a token!" "No. It was my token.") My point: All of this rant is to say that there are many shades of grey when talking about EDH power levels and it's no one's place to assume what someone else would prefer. I'm a casual player but I'm glad that I had the experience of adapting for a cEDH environment. (I've moved again since then) Had I not, I would still see every competitive player as not adhering to the spirit of the format. That's how I felt. What I realize now is that instead of the grand epic army against army, clash of massive forces and wild spells, cEDH is like an old Western quick draw. Some of us prefer to be a mighty general, commanding an army. Some of us prefer taking on the EDH equivalent of Wild Bill Hickok.

[@dualcastgaming3563]

I completely disagree with the idea that cedh only plays to win and doesn't play to socialize. We play to win just as much as most "casual" players. If you sit down a group of cedh players they will spend the whole night playing and chatting just as much. I myself met my D&D group by hanging out with other cedh players. The only difference is power level, which is a gradient. Not some strict cut-off.

[@d.w.7203]

@@blaze556922 "They will even misrepresent their decks just so they can blindside people that aren't familiar with them." Dude, those are not cedh-players. Those are jerks.

[@imperialtutor8687]

exactly and also if they win with a combo turn 2 it doesn't matter since the rest of the pod can just keep playing without that guy.

[@d.w.7203]

@@blaze556922 So we can all agree, that cedh is not equal to being a jerk. What a revelation. But I think many players here in this discussion don't get real cedh either: Playing ONLY the best cards and trying to win the hardest without caring for style or favourite pet-cards. You build what is best, period. And you try to win as fast and as mercilessly as possible while playing with 3 other guys, who do the same. It is that easy.

[@pyrox1s]

I would highly recommend Shivam and people sharing his point of view to check out Spike Feeders and see how competitive EDH can still exist in a fun, friendly capacity. Same with Playing with Power. They have constant banter and it really sounds like a group of friends having a good time, they're just playing with cards in a higher context of power. Those games end and every player still shows that they had fun hanging out and maneuvering the tricky situations. I find it a bit irresponsible to set up this dichotomy and unfairly represent the competitive EDH community. That being said, loved getting to see his perspective. Thanks for having him on, Prof!

[@shivambhatt8380]

i love the spike feeders and have a ton of respect for them =)

[@jakepuckett803]

I met Shivam at CommandFest Seattle, and he was a super nice guy, but I do feel like cEDH is misrepresented in this episode. As a cEDH player myself, I enjoy high-powered interactive games where everyone is trying to win while keeping everyone else in check. I do not enjoy just playing to win; I enjoy when EVERYONE is playing to win, and is equipped to do so. In my playgroup, which is a group of 4 friends at a friend's house with the occasional guest, you will see very high powered "cutthroat" games, but everyone is having fun, even when stopped. For example, while piloting Gitrog, my Turn1 mana dork was countered with Mental Misstep, then Turn2 ANOTHER Mental Misstep countered my next dork AND a Shadow of Doubt caused my fetchland to "fail to find," which I thouoght was really impressive control by my opponents & made me laugh, even though Turn3 I was starting off with a single land, that's it. I STILL won that game, btw, & for me that challenge & accomplishment are incredibly fun! I have casual decks of every power level for different groups of people, but I really really treasure the times I am able to play actual cEDH. cEDH pods are much rarer, & playing a competitive deck at a casual table to just win Turn2 or Turn3 is not fun at all. Winning through a stack 10 interactions deep against other decks trying to go off in a similar time-frame is awesome & much more rewarding. Stax & control are in every deck in my playgroup, which makes the skill of the pilots much more important. I personally get bored with casual games now, since the interactions on your own side of the board might be interesting after 7-10 turns, but in cEDH the interactions between ALL PLAYERS are interesting starting on Turn1. The level of skill needed to pilot cEDH decks in a cEDH environment is what makes me enjoy playing Magic- & I am there to have fun, but to me, that IS fun.

[@CyberBuster93]

45:44 I waited 45 minutes just for this moment. Best part of the video lmfao xD

[@Vuadanee]

omg that made me laugh more than it should've

[@joshuanorris5860]

My favorite is the end when he tells him about "standard" haha For me there was always just two ways to play magic... Type 1 or Type 2. All we ever played was T1 casual. Its similar because it is also inherently broken. With no banned cards etc. You just have to play nice :P

[@radhazard6535]

After listening to this podcast with Shivam and the last one with Olivia I am convinced that there is a disconnect and fundamental misunderstanding/lack of knowledge of cEDH by members of the CAG. There is no wrong way to play MTG, casual and cEDH are both fun in their own way, but it would go a long way if Prof could speak to prominent cEDH community members to give others a better idea of what cEDH is and what it aims to achieve.

[@shivambhatt8380]

I'm not saying CEDH doesn't play to have fun, or that fun is oppositional to winning, but i think that i got ahead of myself and wasn't clear about it. The biggest difference between casual and non-casual edh is simply where you are finding your fun. is your fun in the social aspect of hanging out, or the actual moment to moment gameplay? is your fun in playing a story, or in playing the best possible way you can? i have a ton of respect for my friends in the cedh community, but it's just not the way i approach the game.

[@Twistedlittlesmile]

My group plays very socially but also with strong, competitive decks. It's pretty spiky, but we are drinking and laughing and enjoying the spicy cards

[@treibj]

I play cEDH and my fun is the social aspect of hanging out AND the actual moment to moment gameplay. I believe there is a misconception of cEDH players. There is a high level of interaction in a cEDH game and games don't always end on T3-T4. There is usually a win-con present on those turns and that's the goal, whether that win-con resolves or not is an entirely different story. CEDH has a great community that is very accessible and willing to help in any way.

[@JP-mg5hy]

I think the idea of cEDH is that winning is commonly more important than having fun. It's like professional basketball. They want to have fun, but if they could only have one, they'd rather win.

[@deckage949]

@@JP-mg5hy As someone who's casted and lost to demonic consultation 5 times last week just to spin the wheel and see if I could either find a counterspell or die to mill, I beg to differ. Exile the named card in the top 6 and watch everyone laugh for 2 solid minutes lol Fun from cEDH is the high power gameplay with interaction back and fourth and fighting to resolve your spell, winning is only secondary. If you're expecting to win over half of your games in cEDH you'll likely not be enjoying yourself.

[@martianmilfhunter6229]

Shivam Dragon xD

[@coreysierchio4650]

Since I've started watching "Casually Competitive MTG", cEDH doesn't seem as terrible as I used to think. More exposure dispels the fear. Also, I once won on turn 4 with my Yargle deck, but it was christmas Magic & I wouldn't call it competitive. (1vs1). Also, don't hate on Torment of Hailfire. Games gotta end somehow.

[@ruecianbeoulve7770]

Torment is a wonderfully fair and beautiful card. I love it every time, whether I'm winning with it, losing to it, or it's just morphing the game by shifting resources. If my win con requires a whole bunch of built up mana and get's more than countered by staples like Narset's Reversal, it's absolutely completely fair. Also the complaint by Shivam here is like... I don't want to seem rude, but it's just a little math to determine just how much life or board you want to end up with, or if it ends you. It's really not that complicated. Can you just lose the life, or do you have low value tokens? Cards in hand that are no longer as useful? I've never had much trouble figuring out what to choose from a Torment, and I get that math is just harder for some people, but that's all over the game in general, so one card can't be blamed on that basis.

[@NekoSauce]

Cedh basically represents the most expensive, most powerful cards and tests the player on how well you can play those cards. At it's base that what it is. Which can be extremely fun. However, at the same time I like playing with power 7 decks. Optimized if you will. Not cedh but almost. I find it to be just casual enough and within a reasonable price range to have the most fun for me personally. Plus side is it's more common to find players on the same level. True cedh players can be hard to find at your lgs

[@Alikaoz]

Here from Chile, and I gotta say that a lot of new commander are also played a lot here because they are around. You can get some legends of more recent sets with far more ease than older ones, specially when you need to pay like $50 for shipping if you want to order from CK or SCG.

[@robertschneider779]

I love your long form podcast style videos. Glad to see more of them. Love ya man

[@glenngardner1366]

“Jace Whatever”...haha! Take note Unteam!

[@jamessheffield9091]

I've played plenty of regular EDH and quite a bit of cEDH, for me EDH has by far a higher percentage of games that feel underwhelming - mainly due to an imbalance in power level due to the subjective nature of power levels. My playgroup has tried calibrating our power level but it only goes so far, especially as the natural safety valves on certain strategies are frowned upon (land destruction, stax). cEDH has a large community of testers, which help to balance games - I rarely feel like I have no chance of at least impacting the game.

[@W1DO]

I dont mind land destruction, I dont mind stax... I do mind 10 minute turns.

[@jamessheffield9091]

@@W1DO I tend to see those in regular games of EDH when someone has inadvertently created a combo they weren't aware their deck was capable of... or even worse they were aware of the combo before the game started.

[@d.w.7203]

" mainly due to an imbalance in power level due to the subjective nature of power levels" No, more like bad communication. Communicate better and this will be fine.

[@Ariaoff.Limits]

I don't understand why one would be okay with combos, but hate on cards like Torment of Hailfire and Emrakul.

[@MrFlayer4]

Torment noun severe physical or mental suffering. Of course card is trying be most unenjoyable as its possible, its a freaking Torment

[@thetimebinder]

Because like most casuals, he just hates things that stop him while thinking his stuff in what is okay.

[@savingark1528]

They said why, tormet and emrakrul are “i win the game cards”(something they are fine with) that drag out the game because they don’t necessarily win the game.

[@jean-paulbascelli1078]

I mostly play Cedh, but I play casual as well. The biggest difference I experience is almost most casual players don't play much interaction, removal, countermagic etc.

[@d.w.7203]

Could be your pods, Jean.

[@VexylObby]

There are VARIED types of interaction.

[@jean-paulbascelli1078]

I mean specifically stack interaction in the form of countermagic, as well as instant speed removal. The above are more of a hallmark of Cedh, as opposed to casual edh in my personal experience. I play Casual edh weekly at my local shop, so my opinion is just based on my experiences over about 7 years approximately. Typical Saturday casual edh bring 35-40 players consistently on a weekly basis. Most played archtype is battlecruiser/monster fest, which is fine by me. If I want to exert my efforts into Cedh, I indulge as well (my personal deck being Thrasios/Vial smasher 4 color control).

[@VexylObby]

@@jean-paulbascelli1078 Definitely a personal experience.

[@AskDoctorBear]

I love the idea presented here where the distinction isn’t between competitive and casual, but rather, the goal of playing being to compete or to socialize

[@bendinguy5914]

cEDH is just as social as a casual game

[@MrInvisibleJ]

@@altosforteaquax5083 go watch some of the spike feeders' content. They socialize just as much as any table of casual I've sat at.

[@bendinguy5914]

@@altosforteaquax5083 ^ clearly you've never even seen a cEDH game. Just bc you have this perception of cEDH doesn't mean it's correct.

[@PerfectPencil]

I play cEDH to socialize as well. That is a bad distinction. The only accurate statement was "cEDH is the 1% on top, and casual is everything else"

[@bendinguy5914]

@@PerfectPencil I think shivam's description of what cEDH is and what it tries to do was very good up until he mentioned painters servant

[@benzloeb]

I'm going to have to agree with everyone else in the comments. As someone who plays a good amount of both casual and competitive commander. Shivam really misrepresented cEDH here.

[@shivambhatt8380]

i fucked up and i'm sorry about that.

[@mindhackz]

Shivam Bhatt I think you made a good effort to explain it. As someone who’s never played or had a chance to play this format with anyone, it seemed like an informative video and I could see what you were getting at.

[@oateater5044]

He was closer than most to be fair.

[@Hitzel]

@@shivambhatt8380 Appreciated brother.

[@d.w.7203]

Nah, I play both and he did fine. When I play cedh I play to win and try to stomp everybody as fast as possible. Don't care how. Don't care if it upsets anybody. This IS cedh. If you don't play this way, you don't play cedh.

[@swmccrary]

My last two losses at "Casual Commander" night were to demonic tutor to search for an infinite. Next game enlightened tutor to search for an enchantment lock. Why even have a 1 card limit? Also, they don't have to ban every tutor. They simply need to make a rule similar to the one that doesn't allow cards from outside the game.

[@vengray8055]

Was the infinite win after 2 hours of game play? Was it on turn 12? That kinda matters when discussing if a the win was needed or not. There is a wide variety of casual power levels. It sounds like you're looking for more casual than you found. Try finding a fun group with like minded casual fun that you enjoy. It may take a few times going there consistently but you can probably find them. That's all I did. Found a casual group and stuck to playing with them. Now when a known pubstomper tried getting in a game we just decline because we know our power level isn't the same.

[@jbama82]

I don't get bans on high ramp cards (or any cards) when there are still countless ways to make infinite mana in EDH (and break the game in general). Like... Ya banned Primeval Titan. Big whoop? Doesn't change my friend's Breya deck from going infinite with Mana on turn 4 or 5. The ban list is so arbitrary.

[@bobdole8830]

Just ban ALL infinite combos in your casual group, and set a budget to force people to use tier 2 cards

[@bobdole8830]

@@Narabedla4 well this was a short version of a longer comment where I spoke about caping infinite loops to a given number 6, 8, 10 etc.

[@jbama82]

@@bobdole8830 your comment illustrates how dumb the ban list is. Regardless of what's on the list, playgroups are going to each have their own unique social contracts. Khiki-Jiki and Restoration Angel is a combo thats legal, but I still don't want it because imo combo is lame. But, that's just me. I'm one player with one sense of taste for what I like and dislike. And I can express that to my group. So why does the rules committee even muddy the waters? The rules list says I can't run Primeval Titan in my casual Ghired deck when all I want to do is populate Titans for the lulz, but any deck can have infinite mana with Basalt Monolith and Rings of Brighthearth? It makes SO little sense!!! Just do away with the ban list and let Commander be Commander and let people be people. We don't need a rules committee telling us how to have fun. That's completely subjective and should be left to the players of each group; not a group of strangers that think (emphasis on "THINK") they know best.

[@bobdole8830]

@@jbama82 Not sure why youre so salty, the same goes the other way around as well, if your group agrees on playing banned cards no one is stopping you from doing so. To me it seems you are mad because no one WANTS to play those cards with you and I think the banlist is a great tool for casual players that don't potentially know all 24k cards to get a rough idea which cards will prevent you from having a good time. But ultimately it's just a recommendation l.

[@Jakerunio]

Jeremy Everett Jones the fact that edh doesn’t have a competitive metagame with sanctioned events reporting results and lists that we can properly draw data from makes it impossible to actually decide what is truly too oppressive in the format. Most people have a general idea of what is really good, and cEDH players constantly try to push those boundaries (and ironically tend to end up with more fair/balanced metagames than the typical casual pod, lol) but since the banlist is determined by the opinions of a very small group of people that are founded only on their experiences and feelings (in a non competitive, non objective viewpoint lol) is clearly messed up. So yeah, I agree that the banlist makes 0 sense and it’s because of the way it is designed and who it is managed by (aka not WotC).

[@agentkhaine2204]

Sounds like Shivam has trouble distinguishing between cEDH and pubstompers. I've experienced significantly less salt, and more "hey, let's hang out" through cEDH than I have in casual. I think his trouble started when he had to define competitive first in order to define casual.

[@Kozi15]

Fun is SUBJECTIVE, whats fun for you might not be fun for others vice-versa. Others find fun on casual, and Others find fun on cEDH.

[@bobdole8830]

Well it's not totally subjective. With a little bit of empathy you MIGHT come to the conclusion that winning with an infinite combo in turn 3, or playing a card that costs as much as all other 3 decks combine does NOT make your fellow players experience any fun. It's not necessarily about YOUR fun only, unless you are one of those cave dwelling sociopaths that only live by bringing competitive 3000€ decks to a casual LGS fommander night, but about EVERYONES fun. So as long as all players keep that in mind and build and play accordingly, there is a rather great amount of fun to be had for everyone. OR you coukd be the one guy no one plays Commander with EVER.

[@PonyBoy2792]

@@bobdole8830 This is why discussion prior to the match is important. Not everyone wants to play cEDH or casual 20+ turns. I think it is important to have the pregame discussion talk. What are people's expectations and what are the goals of each deck. Yes, not everyone is willing to talk but you know if you are playing Najeela combo and you see someone playing chiars, pillowfort hugs, etc. then that table may not be best for you or them. Pub stomping is not an acceptable practice among most cEDH players, but it does happen. For the more competitive players, entering a tournament is enough that the social contract is not there or if the table agrees to match power levels. If the casual player joins a tournament and does not have a good time then it is the casual players fault for not understanding the goal of a tournament is to win and has to understand their fun is not everyone's fun.

[@bobdole8830]

@@PonyBoy2792 Well I was only talking about casual commander, and I think the expectations if players don't differ that much from each other. It's all about having fun, sure you should discuss what exactly that means for anyone, but I doubt the general idea will be very different

[@dillonp618]

One of my things on my bucket list is to 1 meet the professor, and 2 play a commander game with him

[@WulfLovelace]

I'd like that too.

[@Slashoom]

@Ethan Slicer You're only gonna get one shot, so be sure to play torment of hailfire in a stax deck with tanglewire

[@MrFishPie]

Both the Professor *and* Shivam! Professor: Merfolk. Shivam: Soldiers. Me: Thopters. Player 4: Slivers.

[@JMMarkulin]

Even the “heads” of eDH can provide nothing more than an ambiguous indication of the “difference” between casual and competitive eDH is.

[@PQnasty]

Most cedh games are "casual" by the Shivam and Profs definition. In a cedh pod everyone is on the same page and are playing with a level of power that is similar. People are actually LESS salty because the games take shorter and a win is always on the table if they draw well. A TON of casual games are just playing their favorite cards and one persons "pet cards" are just way better. Even though they are playing their "pet cards" they win all the time and that can be frustrating for the rest of the pod. IMO it is more fun getting together for a couple hours and getting in more games rather than playing only 1 or 2 and getting stomped the whole time because of how impossible "casual" edh is to balance even among the players themselves.

[@restoreleader]

Yet there is one little problem with cedh, most games are incredibly identical. Tutoring for the same combo pieces, same effecient answers, especially some decks play basically the same turns every game. Also % of actual cards in deck is lower in favor of universal answers. Casual needs some diplomacy, balancing and bans in group, yet result are games of huge variety and players do not fear to construct new deck becouse it doesnt cost 1k. I wouldnt want to play pure cedh whole time, its simply boring

[@PQnasty]

@@restoreleader All edh decks are built with a gameplan or at least a theme in mind, so the same cards are going to pop up. The main mechanic unique to edh is playing your commander every game. What makes the games different is what kinds of interaction cards you each have and the decisions you make with them.

[@restoreleader]

​@@PQnasty yet the % of cards you can actually build deck from (or free slots i should say) is decreasing the more competitive you play. if cedh deck needs 5 tutors, in more causal decks you have 5 more slots for interesting cards and so on. Truth is that without stable group with policies, i would also probably play more cedh rather than arguing with random people about too toxic cards.

[@LouisKing995]

CEDH decks feel very similar though, it’s just not appealing. The reason I don’t play standard.

[@jaredcovington3930]

The bit about standard at the end had me ROLLING!

[@PerfectPencil]

The only difference between edh and cEDH is that cEDH tries to only play with the most powerful cards and most powerful combos. All this "i came to socialize" is bullcrap. I play cEDH because i want to socialize. If I didn't want to socialize I would play skyrim or something.

[@MrFlayer4]

Absolutely true

[@randonwilston]

Dwarven pony should be in every dwarf tribal deck I will die on this hill

[@ctomsky]

I love the term 'motivation'. Its the perfect way to phrase the difference between competitive and casual play.

[@BlueprintsUnityTool]

This is really sad when the people running our format dont understand it. So there is a set way to play commander. Turn 1 : play land , turn 2: mana rocks, turn.... and if you deviate then u are opressing the table? this is terrible and why it seems like the majority of the casual meta ( that I play in) often end up playing decks that are only singleplayer engines. If anything we should celebrate the player who refused to ramp till turn 6/7 and instead played an early threat with something like winter orb to punish the obvious and overplayed ramp decks which plague the format. If you want all games to be similiar and whoever wins was the player who happened by luck to draw the earlier threat then why even play a format with so many potencial. These interviews only show how narrow minded the people setting the rules are currently. Something like the new Conquest edh format for example seems to have a more practical banlist to promote a healthy diverse format.

[@arizonaaquarius8398]

I do not think it is deck construction entirely, but a person's mentality and purpose for playing that sets the tone for casual. I would rather play against a lighthearted fun person playing Armageddon than a 'world series of poker" grinder playing a precon. That competitive spirit just harshes the mello. I am playing commander to get away from that competitive play style, especially the within myself.

[@raffyk7541]

Shivam really seems like such a nice, genuine, approachable guy who just wants everyone to have as much fun as possible. It's really refreshing to see such a cool guy and honest actor in this kind of conversation. His ideas I think better the format.

[@Yourbeautiful666]

I see his points, but I don’t think Shivam understands enough about competitive commander, aka cEDH. I’m glad they brought playing with power on after this, to let people know how cEDH players actually think/feel.

[@thewonderdoc2999]

Every time I hear Shivam talk about the difference in cEDH and the rest it just sounds like he doesnt want me to put powerful cards in my deck. His narrow definition of what truly is commander is just as bad as profs super narrow definition of what counts as Star Trek.

[@maxkordon]

Ehhhh I got a very different impression

[@jameswilles7814]

As someone who plays a bit of CEDH and mostly what I would call casual commander, I disagree with your definition of competitive commander, and the motivation behind playing that format. To me, CEDH is more than picking the best cards to win: it is about improving yourself as a deck builder and as a pilot of those decks. The enjoyment of the format doesn’t come from prizes or through rank or even from winning (although those things certainly are nice), but instead stems primarily from recognizing improvement in yourself as a player: not feeding the mystic remora, evaluating threats and potential cards in hand, and optimal sequencing of plays. Often times, victory can be an important measure of that success, but I disagree that winning the game is the primary motivational distinction between competitive and casual. Tournament players don’t do it because they make millions: they do it because they enjoy it, and thinking otherwise doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me. I think a better distinction between casual and competitive is a distinction when it comes to mindset. A casual player doesn’t care how powerful their cards are so long as they can attain their goal, while a competitive mindset picks a focused goal (that almost always wins the game) and attempts to optimally achieve it. It is possible to play a low powered deck with a competitive mindset, and it is possible to play a CEDH list without a competitive mindset.

[@Kerrmunism]

As I read somewhere, “In the words of my local control player, ‘there’s limited fun to go around, and I want to make sure I’m having all of it’”

[@jordanwolfe607]

Stax: Because fun is a zero sum game

[@shayneweyker]

That's a toxic idea for social play. Save it for the tournament tables. And no, FNM Commander isn't tournament play.

[@jordanwolfe607]

@@shayneweyker Almost as toxic as jumping on someone for a joke in the youtube comments

[@CAF-Esports-ROOK]

@@shayneweyker you wooshed hard on that joke. Everyone knows that fun isn't a zero sum game. It's just funny to say.

[@Quroe_]

Thassa's Oracle? Legal. Coalition Victory? Banned!

[@d.w.7203]

It is a broken format. Deal with it and play Oracle :)

[@Quroe_]

I mean, you're not wrong.

[@chaoticjexak]

I play torment of hailfire...and hour of devestation, and cruel ultimatum. I mean it's fine becuase it's a full bolas deck! right?

[@lolimmune]

How dare you olay flavor cards some random person could be minorly annoyed by?!

[@chaoticjexak]

@@lolimmune I know right? i don't even run an infinite mana combo to abuse ToH with....like someone else in my commander group does

[@d.w.7203]

" I mean it's fine becuase it's a full bolas deck! right?" It is man. It's bolas style.

[@chaoticjexak]

@@d.w.7203 eggs bolasdict a balanced breakfast

[@hoppeltrottel7484]

Fine with me. Flavor decks are awesome, even if they contain cards that may cause some salt with a few players.

[@bcoble121691]

Maybe, I'm getting the wrong message here, but it seems like you're saying removal is anti-casual

[@alimbiccircus9734]

I disagree. I think that what they're saying is that oppressive game play is anti-casual. If you sit down with a deck that plays so much removal or counter that you essentially prevent the other person from PLAYING magic? That's absolutely "anti-casual."

[@fingerkoala]

ALimbicCircus the reason magic is great is interaction, and removal is another form of interaction. I understand where a lot of folks come from when they say they hate stax, but I’ve seen casual players get mad at a hero’s downfall. Don’t play threats and expect people to just lose because they don’t want to create feel bads. The hatred towards removal and control is honestly the worst thing in magic. Interaction is one of the fundamental things that keeps me playing this game. Coming from a non control player trying to bait counterspells and play against removal

[@GamerdevilPro]

Yeah I kinda thought that way too, I really think that you shouldn't just let everyone go off all the time, that's no fun. Counterspells and removal are key to keep busted shit in check to ensure you even have a game. It also produces a lot of swings in a game of commander and I found games where there was interaction to be overall better and more fun. If one player has the nut draw and the other players have mediocre hands and don't even have removal to keep the top player in check it would just be miserable.

[@bcoble121691]

@@fingerkoala this is the mindset I run into alot, counterspells and removal are some how the devil, this stems all the way down into standard now a days it seems like. I'm not trying to actively stop you from playing the game, but the best part of the game is the decisions. Do I want to play into my opponents open mana, if I put this threat down is that going to cause a boardwipe etc etc. Without these decisions magic becomes a far less interesting game, in my opinion.

[@ThymeWyatt]

What they were saying at the beginning of the video about defining "casual" magic basically alluded to casual magic is what your playgroup decides it is.

[@MaiHead92]

I disagree with some of the things that were implied. I have never been in a cEDH pod where we all just sit in quiet with serious faces, comboing off and not socialize. It's not like that at all. I enjoy playing cEDH AND hanging with my friends at the same time. cEDH and socializing / having fun do not exclude one another at all. cEDH is literally just about playing optimized decks with the most powerful cards allowed in the format. And that's it. It can be just as social and fun as any other EDH pod. People just have this misconception that in order for you to play cEDH you have to have this hyper competitive mind set and shit on others as much as you can. Social aspect of the format is important to me as a cEDH player and enjoying my time with my friends is also a big part of it all.

[@djcochrane]

In the last episode, there was a discussion about games have to end and decks need a way to end games. Would like to hear an episode that dives into ways games end. And opinions on those game enders in respect to keeping it casual and fun. There’s a chat in the comments about Craterhoof vs Torment, and I found it very interesting.

[@khenderson692]

Everytime I hear one of these CAG members talk about fair/casual commander, all I get from it is that they seem to be incapable of building a deck that wins before turn 8. And it's like they refuse to run removal. ''Scary' cards arent scary if you blow them up, and the fact that you chose not to run removal is not your opponent's fault. If somone's deck folds to aura shards, it better mean they're in mono black or mono red, otherwise it's entirely their fault for not running answers to opponent threats.

[@shivambhatt8380]

they were playing a rw vehicles deck, which was particularly weak to shards. and why would you want to win before turn 8 anyway? what's your rush?

[@thetimebinder]

If only White had ways to destroy Enchantments or give artifacts shroud.

[@treibj]

Shivam Bhatt why would you want to artificially extend play until after turn 8? Most cEDH games go long, because we all have answers for each others win-cons, but it’s always awesome to see a turn 2 or turn 3 win!

[@khenderson692]

Sorry, I did not expect you to reply to this. I'd prefer to win before turn 8 because I'm not playing with the same 3 people every week/month on a predetermined game night, I'm playing at an lgs, sometimes once a month or less, where the goal is to get as many *interactions* in one night as possible. People dropping a land playing a creature and passing for 10 turns is mind numbing, you can see it on people's faces when the game starts to drag. 5-7 turns of impactful plays, counters, and removals is what makes a good game in that environment. If the games is extended because of quality threat assessment, then good. If someone deftly protects their board and wins turn 5-7, also good. But durdling until turn 10-13 waiting for craterhoof, nah, I built this very much NOT cEDH deck to win, I'd like to play against decks that will challenge it.

[@lolimmune]

@@thetimebinder oops, disenchant.

[@StrongButAwkward]

I have a lot of introspective thoughts/feelings on this topic but my short take on the difference, having played magic for 20+ years now in most of the settings it can be played in is this: In the simplest possible terms, the difference between cEDH/tournament (and any version of 1v1 EDH as well) and all other play styles is that cEDH/tournament is a 100% goal oriented task/activity mindset. The outcome of winning is the goal the path and tools used to achieve that goal matter or so far as they are the best ones to achieve the outcome; success or failure is binary, as is the measure of you the player and your accomplishments/achievements. *ALL* other play is some mixture of process oriented and goal oriented, from those who still want to win but desire to build decks and experience play a certain way while doing it to those who don't care if they build and play jank that never wins or even does much because they just want to have some fun while drinking and playing with friends at home (100% process orientation). The weirdest thing, to me, about the EDH format *specifically* is that these two modalities of play cohabit/coexist/co-mingle in the same play environment to a much greater degree than all other MtG play; the non-sanctioned play environment classically reserved for casual, predominantly creativity/identity oriented deck design and process oriented play.

[@travisholcomb8787]

I feel like Shivam definitely missed the mark on his understanding of cEDH, and that worries me if he’s one of the people who has the direct ear of the RC.

[@NekoSauce]

Well share with us your understanding of cedh

[@travisholcomb8787]

@@NekoSauce Sorry man, I have better things to do than go back and watch a nearly hour-long video from 2 years ago to respond to this. 😅

[@JakeTSloan]

My biggest takeaway from this episode is that Shivam would hate playing with me, and by extension my playgroup. Besides the blatant hate towards cEDH or even just high power leveled EDH, he also seems to have an internalized hatred for control strategies. Bleh.

[@Quroe_]

Is the counterpoint to not having fun because a game ended too early to put in instant speed removal/interaction in your deck instead of relying on others to do so?

[@finalshade14]

Better deck construction. It feels like shivam wants to reward poor deck building. You can be casual, still build your deck to function

[@gustavomartinsdesouza5548]

The thing is that if you want to win by turn 4 consistently, you are probably winding off most of commander player base. We, casuals, do have instant removal, but the deck is not 20 slots filled with it, 10 tutors and then win cons, because that is not how we want to play most of the time. My Chulaune by example is a Mana Dork tribal. It is good but I don't run 15 instant removals because it will usually make me miserable to HAVE to run these cards instead of the ones that I truly want, but I do understand that I have to have some so I put some removals that specifically target things that can make my deck unusable like Rule of Law. If you value someones fun just by their deckbuilding standing from your own point, you are just wishing that everyone clings to competitive.

[@saoirse8558]

Nope. If someone brought a sportscar to a go-kart race, you wouldn't bash on the children for not bringing better engineered cars. They wanted a go-kart race, NOT a drag race. If someone resolves a T2 win against a table of tribal decks, you don't go: "Shoulda put in Force of Will."

[@finalshade14]

@@gustavomartinsdesouza5548 i know your exaggerating, but 10 tutors and 20 interaction slots? Most don't run more than 4 tutors. And leaving space for 5 interaction cards is usually enough.....

[@gustavomartinsdesouza5548]

The people who plays competitive around where I play usually have A LOT of interaction (10+), and by that I don't mean only instants but cards that have no other purpose on the deck other than simply lock down opponents even if the deck have absolutely nothing to do with it. And tutorwise I was exaggerating, yes but by extension a single Demonic Tutor in my country costs half of minimum wage, it is truly harsh pick up the competitively good cards like Pact, FoW, Demonic, etc around here, WAY more than USA and other better countries economically speaking, so people who play cEDH usually play the game for A LONG time or are really well financially and that makes impossible to new comers if they are the main playgroup, so, we usually just expect them to have a more friendly deck, ask them to not come, or gangup on them every game with our most aggro decks since, even if we lose, they actually feel the animosity and 1 - Go play with someone that are into cEDH, 2 - Ask a deck, which I have 9 and gladly share. The thing is, don't be too harsh on people expecting the perfect balance of interactions, they will, eventually, enhance their decks to a more manageable level, but will never be able to beat the more competitive decks at a regular basis because they build the deck to be more fun for them. It is a discussion that I have with some friends very often because they are more into cEDH and usually ask people to play with them, but most of our group don't want to, just because they are too harsh and push them to pick up more expensive or difficult to find cards that they simply just don't have the resources to. The way that I deal with is: I have 9 decks that range from 2 to 7 in power level and I have some specifically built decks that have the sole purpose to counter the main strategies that our cEDH groups have if they try to pick on our casuals too much.

[@patrickmchugh4616]

The commander ban list has some really odd choices to me that don't fit the philosophy presented here. Biorhythm? Coalition Victory? Are these cards the boogeymen in a format as busted as commander?

[@andrewlaverghetta715]

Patrick McHugh if you’ve seen some of the other comments on this in other places, part of the ban list is a guide as to the kinds of things they don’t think should be part of commander.

[@patrickmchugh4616]

@@andrewlaverghetta715 I understand, but the inconsistency is strange to me. Take "Balance" for instance. I understand how it can be abused and generally slows down the game and overall seems pretty unfun. This would be an example of "the things they don't think should be part of commander" right? Well what about Pox? What about Death Cloud? Griselbrand and Yawgmoth's Bargain are too abuseable in a 40 life format, but Necropotence is okay? It's really about lack of consistency in my opinion.

[@jamespooh2]

@@patrickmchugh4616 they won't ban all cards that are similar. They'll ban one representative card and say that this kind of effect in general isn't that fun in edh. Again you can ignore the banlist if you want anyways so it doesn't really matter

[@patrickmchugh4616]

@@jamespooh2 Yeah I understand that cards are banned in a sort of "spirit of fun" mentality that could apply to many other cards. But my point still stands: what's the point of a banlist at all if it can be ignored or subverted with cards that have the same effect? I guess overall I'm saying that the banlist should be put in place for cards like the mox, chaos orb, shahrazad, and the power nine because they are stupidly overpowered and/or just create problems in terms of how the game is played. The format is fundamentally broken at its core and that is part of the fun. If I lost to Sundering Titan being bounced repeatedly I don't think I would mind, nor would I find fault at losing to a resolved Sway of the Stars. And yet I can legally lose to Kefnet Time Walk abuse and it's apparently okay? It just seems like a ban list in general is pointless when everyone should talk to their playgroup about what they find acceptable or not.

[@jamespooh2]

@@patrickmchugh4616 games store leagues and commander nights. It's the only place where the banlist is law. It is needed for game stores because it creates a guideline of what's to be expected since it's hard to create a playgroup dynamic with such little time. Plus most game stores want to keep it casual so they want the ban list.

[@EDHCommander99]

Casual Commander our favorite format. We're always playing to socialize have fun.

[@Mynamedoesntreallyfi]

Coming from someone who plays both competitive and casual, the most straight forward way to explain the way I play casual is pulling my punches. I actively slow my deck down and push it towards the most fun/jank route that I enjoy or will get a funny reaction from the table. Atraxa darksteel reactor is one of my favorites, perhaps I could restore Shivam’s faith in the deck.

[@deckage949]

The cEDH stigma still going on today is frankly condescending and quite annoying. Both are just as social and just depends on who you're playing with. Just because I rather play a survival of the fittest over fauna shaman doesn't mean people get to decide that I'm not here to have fun. I've had people call my Sliver deck and my Yarok ETB deck competitive just because I don't like budget restriction; that's where I either change my deck or join another table. Don't police people's opinions, most people I know wouldn't want to watch through a 3-4 hour game with people throwing vanilla creatures at each other. On a side note, I only own 1 cEDH deck and only play it in casual pods by request. I've never seen people build deck for the sole purpose of curb stomping underpowered decks. People aren't stupid, if you bring in optimised Urza or hulk decks without everyone on the same page you're likely not having a second game in that pod. Stop defining something as subjective as 'casual'.

[@Mwarrior1991]

I totally agree with you, theyre trying to define subjective terms through objective lens. I would even go as far as saying that a ban list goes against the spirit of commander.

[@henryjones8636]

Agree 100%

[@danielbretado7660]

I wish I have met more people like you because I have met many people who enjoy pub stomping and playing decks clearly above the level at the table. The problem is that this has led to "arms races". I've learned to play my jank and have fun. Keeping up with the Jones' is too hard.

[@deckage949]

@@danielbretado7660 I usually play at different LGSs and pubs and have yet to see someone knowingly using a deck several tiers above everyone else. If you're in a playgroup then the best course of action is to either ask them to replace problematic cards or to just make a weaker decks that can be on the same level as your strongest deck. EDH like all eternal formats constantly evolves and people add new cards with every sets. Part of the fun for me is to slowly upgrade decks I haven't invested in to slowly make them stronger. Imo I don't see any fun in winning when you start off knowing you're guaranteed to win that game and I'm sure loads of people feel that way.

[@deckage949]

@Golden Griffon which i've addressed in the side note

[@Gerkinshteel]

I think you guys missed a key of CEDH. We play to have fun with friends also. Social is important. We just want it to be competitive and fair. (Everyone has an equal level of full power)

[@Gerkinshteel]

Competive also isn’t about playing the best deck cause there are many best decks

[@matthewwizardify]

We're framing this conversation like keeping Commander casual is a good thing? It's kind of insulting that there is an assumption here that liking playing with powerful cards is somehow bad. Certainly, curbstomping lower power level tables is bad. But I don't see how framing casual as being desirable and competitive as being less so makes sense. It would drive me bananas trying to play a deck against this guy because my power level 4 (weakest that I have) morph deck would be curbstomping his deck that he made based on the kind of art that he likes. I find a complete lack of attention to mechanics and synergy to be utterly boring to play against.

[@Slashoom]

There is a place for tribal jank and durdle decks filled with pet cards. It just seems like "keeping it casual" and playing pet cards is what is fun for him, and that is okay. But trying to push that philosophy on the community is a mistake. Let people have the freedom to determine what they find fun within their own playgroups. Stax got a lot of hate in this video, but there is a reason stax exists and its so control decks don't dominate your meta.

[@VexylObby]

@@Slashoom Eh, I partly disagree. Playing competitively in the context of non-cEDH is inevitably going to create unbalanced, unfavorable environments. This is addressed multiple times in this episode. And honestly, your point isn't too far different than theirs' in this video.

[@VexylObby]

I think that is a misinterpretation. I think they support keeping like-players playing with each other and keeping the game more honest.

[@matthewwizardify]

@@VexylObby but, I think that the dude doesn't get a pass by contrasting cEDH with fluff decks. CEDH players don't play against your fluff deck. That's a problem that is not widespread and is pretty random if it does happen. It seemed like he was trying to create a contrast somehow and what he started to go with 'cedh players want to win, but I don't. Oh wait, I can't say that. Uhh, yes, I want to win.' So then he went forward with 'competitive players value winning over social interaction of playing magic.' and 'competitive players use the best cards and we use everything else, including jank.' I think there's definitely a type of player that finds the game mechanically interesting, builds a. 75% decks, but the game is primarily a social experience. Separate to that, many cedh players are primarily social outside the context of paid events. There is a tendency to view yourself as 'normal' and everyone else in relation to that. I would certainly never put a card in my decks based on the artist. But there's many shades of player in-between that and cedh.

[@VexylObby]

​@@matthewwizardify I think that is a misrepresentation, as he points out the varied types of players you mention. Plus, the problem they address here is pubstomping, or simply the lack of communication/understanding between players. As well, they mention the tendency of specific deck construction choices that does not consider collective entertainment, as opposed to only serving the individual. I get what you are saying about self-perception as being "normal", and the multitude of types of players in the spectrum of power levels. And I agree with the end of your first paragraph, but not the point to where you think he is saying there is only cEDH and art decks. He is still correct here. There is legitimate concern still in the community about people making construction choices that are not considerate of casual play (otherwise there wouldn't be multiple channels and videos about this topic as of late). I think it is more widespread than you think. On the topic of winning, of course people have differing goals. But when you make the decision to use a deck so optimized fro your commander, that the competition has to do the same, your goal is obviously to win. That is the nature of cEDH. I think I speak for many players when I say that winning is a fantastic biproduct. However, if it is your primary goal, then why bother with anything but the most optimized solutions for your commander? When you make that decision, you are trying to win, and be competitive. When you tell yourself "meh, I want to simply play cards that allow others or my meta to diversify", you enter the casual realm. I know these terms can still be vague, but will we ever have absolute definitions? No. But I do think we know what people mean when they say "casual".

[@JonLeitheusser]

I love Torment of Hailfire, but in very few decks. Such a cool effect.

[@DamonXWind]

The reason I like cedh is because everyone is expected to try to interact. There are more decision points. I don't sit down and play flash hulk vs pre cons or whatever.

[@nivikyesac]

I feel like yall really missed the point of cedh. I would really like if you would have a discussion like this with the Spike Feeders, Mystic Remoras, Casually Competitive or Shaper Savant. People who actually play edh competitively. People who play this format really don't want to play against more casual decks. The reason CEDH is fun is because of the intricate play between a pod of cedh decks.

[@iDoserWsS]

In my playgroup we have competitive matches (with tutors, turn 4 wins and etc...) and casual matches (no combos allowed). Both are really fun, we just have to play with the appropriate deck in each match

[@Skiriwowi]

The most painful part of this is that the commander I love most for her artwork and story and emotional resonance pretty much REQUIRES a glass cannon infinite combo type strategy to win.

[@blakecote5867]

In my opinion, this explanation from Shivam feels like we are being told how to play casual commander, where there are realistically many interpretations. Casual commander should not mean that you can't play boring win conditions or make decks more consistent. The definition of casual commander is not "what Shivam thinks is fun". Prof, thank you for trying to challenge his argument and thank you for your tireless effort.

[@project_swift]

Eh, I'm going to disagree with you. He was just putting forward his view of casual commander as an option for everyone to consider.

[@thetimebinder]

Exactly. The RC and CAG are trying to tell people how to have fun and if you aren't having fun the same way they are, then you are doing it wrong and going against the spirit of the format

[@blazerboy55]

I think he's fundamentally correct that it's about expectations but think he went wrong when he said that competitiveness is a choice made at deck construction. You can play maximum power decks casually and meme decks competitively. Casualness is determined by the pregame discussion. "Hey guys let's play meme decks" or "here's my hand, do I have a winning line here?"

[@Khronogi]

@@thetimebinder actually they are protecting their format by making it more diverse. Cards are banned because without that card, you lose.

[@DanG626]

I have 8 total EDH decks and they all have different ways to win. But I personally don’t run infinite combos, I dial back on tutors and instead substitute with better card draw. Each deck is meant for multiplayer and highly interactive because for the entry to mid-level average player, we just want a chance to at least set up a game and see what the deck is able to do. I like it when people have the option to do their big fun things. Anyone can bring any new deck idea to the group and we don’t complain. The oppressive player will always get ganged up on, and sometimes it’s even encouraged because of the importance of threat recognition. My playgroup doesn’t have issues because we communicate and we’re all happy to play Magic!

[@alexchen2519]

I think the rules committee has gone too far ahead of themselves when considering what is fun, and the banlist has now become a way of saying "Oh we think your way of having fun is the wrong way." I enjoy ridiculous fast combos with Paradox Engine and Fish Hulk because I'm spikey and find cutthroat competitive environments fun, and having the RC ban such things (or consider banning) just makes me feel as though my way of enjoying the game is invalidated based on a very arbitrary yardstick. As for the comment that "the cards you pick is the face you present to other people", yes I know my 23 counterspell control deck is a resting bitch face that nobody wants to see. However, instead of complaining about the slow game state that you think I've created, it's equally viable to use this information to craft a gameplan around beating a heavy control deck. One more thing about the idea of casual magic is that people don't tend to understand how cost of the deck can factor a lot into how 'casual' it is. I can build a very efficient deck on a budget, and casual players will think it's too competitive because Im actually trying to win, while cEDH players will stomp it into the ground. I feel as though the community doesn't really give a place for budget players who still want to play competitive decks, especially since it's quite an achievement to make something this efficient from suboptimal parts.

[@leress]

There are places were there are builds for budget cedh decks. Many places that I've seen that have cedh communities understand that it can be expensive to make decks so they want to lower the barrier either by using proxies or budget builds. There are also channels like the Commander's Quarters that try to make really good decks for low budgets.

[@V2ULTRAKill]

A casual pod once called my $34 Zur deck cedh Its fucking voltron zur thers NOTHING cedh about that

[@vengray8055]

​@@V2ULTRAKill to them it was. They were probably very new. Or maybe they just didn't like you. Good excuse to not play

[@V2ULTRAKill]

@@vengray8055 no This is simply just idiots thinking any tuned deck is cedh Heres a secret Most actual cedh decks self implode at casual tables

[@CommanderReplay]

I don't like the idea of "casual" being everything else. Because that leaves the problem of turn 6 and 7 combo decks. They aren't Cedh, but they aren't really casual either. They are high power decks.

[@RobbieEctor]

Shivam did a terrible job of explaining motivation for cEDH. I would love for Prof. to actually speak with cEDH players about what the game means to them.

[@luiscases5049]

Same!

[@Rinin.]

Terrible.

[@Ser_Nathor]

Professor, I really, really needed this video right now. Thank you. One of my friends in our group is getting upset because he cant beat another friend and I've been trying to find ways help him chill and just enjoy the game without getting competitive. Thank you for this. Your classes are always bang on.

[@willemboele2079]

here is your differance between casual and competetive: casual: you have a deck you enjoy playing, you have a game with friends, depending on if it is a tournoment there are stakes. your opponent plays a dumb pet card and everyone laughs, the game ends and everyone is happy (except the mana screwed guy). it's a great time. competetive: you have a deck, the game is a race to infinite/lockdown, first to be able to do this wins. it's exhilarating, getting so close to winning, only to be crushed by a topdecked force of will, and that one person in the corner manages to sneak a win, because he waited for everyone to use their resources. won games in cedh always feel earned. afterwards we all look at the best preforming cards, what we should have done in hindsight. it's a great time. casual: cards against humanity competetive: chess (but with like, twice the pieces)

[@CastonAdrulu]

competitive : i WILL win this game, this deck is DESIGNED to win in the most efficient way possible casual : i want to win, but my deck is designed to do something i find cool or interesting, and i want to share my ideas with my friends

[@Inzanepiratical]

I've been at this game since Invasion, and on the EDH train since 2011 with decks of various power. In my experience, the most competitive players, and all of the pubstompers, are ALWAYS hiding in the "casual" groups, and non-existent in the CEDH pods. I've had more fun watching someone crank out a massive stack of counterspells and wincons than watching the lifegain deck sit there with an Aetherflux Reservoir and 120 life for turns on end holding the board hostage. People need to get over the prejudice that CEDH is for spikes and WAAC jerks. It's a high-power, no-holding-back way of play that pushes interaction and play skill while providing a fun and social environment. Frankly, "Competitive" EDH really needs to be redefined as "Power" EDH.

[@Kozi15]

Hello there my fellow cEDH enthusiast, then it should be PLAYING WITH POWER if you know what I mean.

[@unbanrofellos5786]

I second this

[@Inzanepiratical]

@@Kozi15 I see what you did there ;) For real I'm not a CEDH player by a longshot. I just have an appreciation of that style of play and hate the severe misconceptions about those who play it.

[@darkice12321]

I think after reading a bunch of comment my view is that casual players want to play their deck and Competitive players want interaction. How on base am I? I'm a casual player but am competitive in nature and want to be challenged for wins. I want to grind out and either come out on top or finally be all out of options and feel good about the fight.

[@VampiricGamess]

I took apart my chulane combo deck and rebuilt it as adventure tribal with an enchantress back up plan to be able to run all of my showcase cards. It made a deck that is semi competitive but opponents smile. That was the best part of Throne of Eldraine the flavor just makes your smile.

[@mikotagayuna8494]

If Wizards just sanction cEDH, 1v1 or Duel Commander, it would attract competitive players to it instead of casual, low-powered groups. This allows for both types of players to have fun in their own terms and manage their expectations without the need to constantly struggle with group psychology.

[@shimmy2425]

The way I would describe casual commander is that even if you are playing to win, you are trying to win within some self-imposed or group-imposed limitations. Some examples can include price of cards or price of deck, or adherence to a particular theme amongst many other possible examples. I try my hardest to win and therefore am "competitive" during the game, but when I actually build my decks, I am much more interested in making the best deck I can while still adhering to flavor. In competitive, it is commandeering the best decks period.

[@TheCrowing14321]

>start talking about competitive > painters servant and grindstone >really? You....have no idea whst cEDH is, do you?

[@BrooksBoyd426]

On the idea of whether tutoring/searching cards should be banned: I think those sort of cards are so powerful in Commander because everyone has a larger deck, so you can have all the utilities you need buried somewhere in the deck, and pull out not necessarily the same bomb every time, but instead the exact card you need for the current situation. As an option, what would it be like if an effect like Aven Mindcensor ("If an opponent would search a library, that player searches the top four cards of that library instead.") was always in effect for "large deck" formats like Commander? Probably not as restrictive as Mindcensor's (how about the default search limit is the top 20 cards of your deck?), which gets it down closer to searching through a 40-card draft deck?

[@dannylut9711]

I love that they are talking about an 2 hour slot and just play one game. Even with 10+ turns, we play 2 games minimum. And that is casual. I also don't get the idea of "oh no..i need to shuffle again". And talking about social and not playing. Can't you be social while locked down? Can't you grab a drink and have fun? If you want to play one game for 2 hours..just play chaos and have weird interactions. I get the points, but just disagree. And that is fine.

[@andrewlaverghetta715]

You can still be social, but people want to be able to play the deck they’ve made and make meaningful decisions while playing the game. It’s like why people get salty playing uno when they have their turn skipped. If you’re locked down, you don’t get to play the deck you spent hours tuning, goldfishinf, researching, and even hundreds of dollars assembling. It can be “social” because you’re with people, but you also want to be able to play.

[@03dallasjs00]

For commander a lot of people’s decks are a reflection of their personality or their pride. The social aspect doesn’t start at the table talk and end there, you’re talking about cards and looking at things they included and showing the weird things your deck can do. You are giving an example of your deck and how you play magic and that is a wonderful part of the game, something you can’t do when the deck gets locked down

[@dannylut9711]

@@andrewlaverghetta715 then shuffle up and start again. And if there are mutiple tables..just switch. Yeah, I am never salty sorry. I just like all decks and people. And sometimes like to make salty. From playing with white border till my urza deck.

[@dannylut9711]

@@03dallasjs00 well, you can. You now know that you missed interaction. You don't lose any pride with that kind of feedback. And next time you will just remember that the lock down is possible and think ahead. But hey, different way of looking at stuff

[@bobdole8830]

As with all things you need the right balance. I have played games were people were basically so much in the zone and no one was talking and I have played games where one single turn could take upwards of 10 minutes because the players were so distracted by socializing, both wasn't a nice experience but honestly I'd chose a fast game with hardly any talking over a 4h ame that mostly consists of talking about how drunk someone got on some festival, but that's just me ;) Ideally I prefer a little banter here and there and little politics and the rest is just playing the game.

[@bigsmiles768]

Shivam has the kind of attitude where I just like listening to them talk.