Media settings and ICC profiles - why both matter for great prints

[@rogerwalton8160]

Very well explained Keith. Nothing I didn't know already but I share these videos with club members who find them very helpful.

[@KeithCooper]

Thanks that's appreciated - any questions for such topics are always welcome...

[@jonathansisovic]

Always great videos! Really well laid out, informative, to the point!

[@KeithCooper]

Thanks - glad it was of interest!

[@TimMyers-u1c]

Hi Keith! Love your videos! I'm an artist without a spectrometer, and I'm trying to get my print colors to match my scans as closely as possible. Is there any way you could share your custom color profiles for fine art paper and canvas prints? It would be a huge help to me and I'm sure many others. Keep up the great work!

[@KeithCooper]

Thanks - What paper, what printer? Remember that profiles are specific to to a paper AND model of printer - they are not generic items...

[@Mike0193Azul]

I am having so much issue trying to print out smaller standardized dimensions on a larger paper sheet. For example I wanted to print out two 5 x 7 inch photos on 8.5 x 11 sheets. While I am able to get the exact layout and dimensions i want on Photoshop and Lightroom Classic, they come out wrong. Photoshop comes out dark and Lightroom comes out red. Using the Epson Photo + app and Epson Photo Layout Apps I get the exact colors I see and want but the apps just offer no control over dimensions and exact sizing and always fills out whatever paper size is selected. Can anyone offer help and advice on how to achieve exact dimension, and placement control while gettting the correct colors for my Epson ET-8550? Thank you! 💚 Love all your videos Keith! Just haven’t been able to find a fix for this issue on any video or even searching online. Posted on Reddit about it and still no one has offered the solution I want.

[@KeithCooper]

I don't have that printer here any more to test. However, the place I'd ask is the printing forum at dpreview.com BUT do say exactly what system you are using and what icc profiles etc If Lightroom and Photoshop print wrong, then there is something set up wrongly on your system

[@Mike0193Azul]

@@KeithCooper Thank you for the quick response! Okay will try asking there. I have been playing around with tons of test prints and have gotten better results with custom color correction and using "Epson Vivid" color controls on Lightroom🤙🏽🖤 Turns out there's two sections I have to input printer and color settings, on Lightroom at least. On the right panel all the way down are print job settings and then inside printer settings, properties, and more options

[@KeithCooper]

Yes, ask on DPR - you much more likely to get a response. For example, I never use lightroom, and if custom/vivid works, then something else is set up wrong - also you will need to mention the system details...

[@zimmerman421]

Is there much, if any, difference between using the suggested media setting for a 3rd party paper or creating a custom one specifically for it ?

[@KeithCooper]

Having profiled a lot of papers on a variety of printers, I'd say not that often ;-) The problem is that 'custom' media settings don't actually allow you to adjust much. Add to that the utter lack of info from the printer makers about the real differences between media settings, and much of it is guess work. This has been part of my 'feedback' to Canon and Epson for so long that I really ought to have some text ready to cut and paste... :-( The only times where I would make custom one are where there is quite a disparity between the media setting used and some physical characteristics of the paper, so on a larger printer, I might find that a 'lustre paper' setting works for profiling, but that native paper is much thinner than my media [glossy canvas springs to mind]. So, I might want to up the thickness [head height] and maybe change the paper vacuum or other physical settings. From a usability POV, a custom setting may also make it easier for less skilled operators to tend machines - but I don't run a print business...

[@zimmerman421]

@@KeithCooper Thanks Keith, it was something i had wondered about for a while. Seeing various people mention custom media setting for different 3rd party papers but not a whole lot of information as to what difference it was making from using the suggested ones. I suppose without knowing exactly what the default setting is doing its difficult to compare them.

[@KeithCooper]

Yes - I've written stuff about media settings over the years. Sometimes useful to experiment when profiling a new paper, but actually worth doing? Not that often... I've seen people doing it, because they want 'something' - this is 'something', so they do it... ;-)

[@StevenGrant_Photographer]

My challenge when i first got the pro 1000 is there is media in the actual printer and scanners setting under main that you can change and I discovered hahnemuhle has read me files stating to change to for example high density fine art paper. Which for photo rag i am doing. Because i am using photo cards i can only use the top feed so i need to not use photo rag in the Main section printer settings but to use heavyweight art setting As well i use canon PPL to print and again using the heavyweight fine art setting but also using the 😮photo rag color profile. This worked. Before i would select the media photo rag i the main printer settings which is incorrect. Cheers hopefully no one else is confused and hopefully i didnt confuse you as well

[@KeithCooper]

Yes, i've used the HAP media setting quite often for profiling such papers, just so as to be able to use the top slot. You can of course use the MCT to create custom media types.

[@alfredkenny7583]

Hello Keith great video really appreciate your knowledge and how you present it - thank you. Well at 79 years old just started this hobby of photography. So please bear with me if this is a stupid question. If there is not a icc profile in the pull-down menu for the paper you are using , where do you get it from and where do you put the profile on the computer. I am using the Canon 300 and latest version of photoshop running on windows. Thank you Keith. Best regards Alf

[@KeithCooper]

Thanks - normally profiles are obtainable for the paper/printer from the supplier. See here for an excellent guide to installation [I've not used a windows pc this century] www.permajet.com/icc-profiles/

[@kolabuzlu]

Thank you Keith. Epson Print Layout software does not work right with custom profile I’ve created for a different brand paper. Tried every media types in settings. Colors are shifted and too dark. LR or PS works flawlessly. Do you have any idea why? Regards.

[@KeithCooper]

I need far more details... software/system/profiling setup

[@kolabuzlu]

@@KeithCooper Thank you very much for your reply. I use MacOS Ventura. Profiled my non-Epson papers (glossy and pearl papers) with i1 Studio device. Lightroom and Capture One work flawlessly with my profiles. If I use Epson Print Layout software, and select custom ICC profile and one of my profiles from dropdown menu, prints are terrible, colors are way off, too dark, etc… It happens only if I select Premium Glossy or Premium Semiglossy media types and a custom ICC profile in Epson Print Layout.

[@KeithCooper]

Ah, another reason to avoid new Mac operating systems for a while... [my Mac usage/support policy since ~1988] ;-) :-) I just set up MacOS 13 on a spare machine to look for glitches, but have not tried printing from it yet. Can you save the profiles as V2 rather than V4? Also, do Epson specifically mention MacOS 13 as supported yet in the very latest EPL?

[@kolabuzlu]

@@KeithCooper I’m taking your time, thank you. I’ll try different profile versions. Strange thing is, if I select for example Photo Paper Glossy as media type in i1 Studio print settings dialog box, and profile my paper, EPL works flawlessly with custom created V4 profile and Photo Paper Glossy media type selected. It goes crazy only when I introduce ‘Premium’ word in media type, glossy or semigloss doesn’t matter. In i1 Studio, I select one of Premium papers as media type in settings and profile the paper, then in EPL I select the same Premium paper and custom profile, everything is off. Very strange…

[@KeithCooper]

Sounds like a bug somewhere... I've not come across this - I'd suggest asking on the printing forum at dpreview.com

[@blynn6240]

All your videos are fantastic! I’ve been watching some of your videos and trying to wrap my head around your color management articles. My question is that I’m having problems getting the correct color hue and bright enough primary colors when printing some graphics- I did find a paper that prints them very vibrantly, but its too dark and a natural white so it’s warming the colors too much. For example, All my yellows are coming out severely gold, no matter how I manually tweak the printer settings, test different papers, manually change HSL/RGB settings or even if I hardcode the primary color hex code. Even when I move it to yellow green, I’m still getting a slight gold The program I’m stuck using is only offering a RGB mode and since my color profile inept, 5 year old HP printer, is of course printing CMYK. When I try to saturate a color, darkens it when I print… which defies everything I know about color theory btw 🤦🏻‍♀️… saturation should not affect value. Since I don’t have a screen calibrator, I’m doing this manually with test print/swatches and it’s been frustrating. I’m not sure if buying an newer ICC profile capable printer will even help this specific issue- from what I understand from your videos, the ICC printer profiles help the printer and computer talk to each other better in terms of what color shows on the screen and I think my problem is the RGB program using CMYK inks 🤷🏻‍♀️… the color models do have some overlap, but in my experience there are colors that one has and not the other since one is made subtractively and one is additive. If you can help me with this, you will have my eternal gratitude.

[@KeithCooper]

See my video about not using CMYK - the fact that the printer uses CMYK inks is irrelevant. See also my video about printing brightly coloured test - it has a suggested reference file in the notes. My suggestion is that you likely have quite a few aspects of colour management slightly mixed up. There are so many possible sources of errors/problems here that I can't give an actual answer Have a read of this to get a better idea of how colour management works - it's referencing photoshop, but the principles should apply to other things as well www.photoshopforphotographers.com/pscs3/download/PSCS3_colmanage.pdf

[@blynn6240]

@@KeithCooper I’m sure you’re right that I have color management mixed up in some way… I’ve done so much research at this point everything is jumbled up lol- theres program color profiles, screen settings, printer settings, printer color profiles and calibrators, how they interact of course other factors like paper type…. But I’ll take a look at that info and see if I can frame my question better. If I cant, how bad of an idea would it be to just get a printer that can actually print in RGB and see where I’m at, at that point? I’m sure youre right that RGB is the way to go, and I’d be shocked if my HP printer isn’t causing most of not all of my color problems 🤷🏻‍♀️ Thank you so much for your time, I truly appreciate it.

[@KeithCooper]

Ah - there is no such thing as a printer "that can actually print in RGB" - They are RGB devices in that the driver expects RGB data, but what comes out is a range of colours/brightnesses which fit within the printer+ink+paper gamut [the paper icc profile covers this]. For actual CMYK printing, you need specialist driver software and things can get much trickier ;-) See my video about printing bright coloured text for a bit more on this, in a way which doesn't use profiles etc. That pdf is really well written [Martin's book on Photoshop is still my go-to guide] If you want to really understand colour management - my recommendation every time is to find a 2nd hand copy of 'real world color management' [Fraser et al.] - a few key chapters work for most people ;-)

[@blynn6240]

@@KeithCooper Perfect- thank you, that helps. I’ll check them out.

[@sinsmum]

Hi there Keith, I was just about to ask you about this subject which youve answered....almost. I have recently bought a Canon Pro300 and in the process of looking at different paper types for the photos Ive been printing. Ive taken a liking to using Ilford papers (especially the Pearl lustre) as they are quite accessible here in NZ however I cannot find anything on the net telling me what the various papers are when trying to match them with Canon's dropdown boxes in the media settings. You touched on it in this video the exact problem Im having - I thought Ilford would be in the major player league and provide some details on their site. They have 'touched' on it in some literature in a raster paper i bought, but only for that paper. Are you able to point me towards one of your videos or cover the subject in a new video if this is a valid question. Many thanks, Mike from New Zealand

[@KeithCooper]

Ah, Ilford has been patchy in this respect for some time. If a profile is available, the profile should include the media setting to use. If no profiles are available - it's not a good sign. Good question - I will do a short video on this - probably Saturday

[@thomaseriksson6256]

Very useful information, thank you

[@KeithCooper]

Thanks

[@fredwestinghouse2945]

Is Platen Gap worth bothering with? It is something to be filled in the Epson Media Installer software. However, I do not see that value presented by most (all?) paper sellers. So, is the platen gap important or not? Please do a video about it if it is important. Thanks.

[@KeithCooper]

It for media different in thickness to the default for that media. Also for uneven media Not worth bothering for most people A section in the written review - not a video topic ;-)

[@alexanderwei7825]

Hello Keith, a very informal video. However, it doesn't clarify my question about which paper type I should select when, for example, I want to create a new ICC profile for a new paper. I've been using the Spyder Studio Kit from Datacolor since 2018. With Datacolor, you could print a test print with the same test image but with different paper settings before actually creating the ICC profile in order to find the optimal paper. Can the Colormunki do that too? I often see the Colormunki from X-Rite in your videos and those of other bloggers. Is there a reason for that? Is Datacolor not as good? Best regards from Pfalz, Alex.

[@KeithCooper]

Ah - that paper choice is primarily driven these days by what the suppliers suggest. Failing that, I point people to media choice my articles and the downloadable test images going back to my original PrintFIX [later spyderprint] testing almost 20 years ago See the second more detailed video too kzbin.info/www/bejne/bZ7NnWaXhpackKM X-Rite don't include a media check test in any of their products - they assume you will just do it if it is necessary [rarely] Modern printers are much better from a linearity and unit variation POV So, for example, I've not needed to do a full media test on any paper for the PRO-1100 I'm testing. My videos are shot in one take without a script - real detail goes into my written work. Always check the articles if mentioned in the notes - it seems I forgot to add the link - my apologies...

[@mikepenny2491]

Another good one Keith 👍

[@KeithCooper]

Thanks

[@holograms4188]

Hey Keith, love the vids. Question, if the paper manufacturer supplies an ICC profile for their paper, is that better than making a custom ICC profile? I see a lot of videos of people saying you shouldn’t use the manufacturers profile and you should make your own.

[@KeithCooper]

Thanks Are those videos from people selling profiling kit or offering custom profiles? ;-) Making your own is fine if you've all the kit and software - Oh, and I mean higher ends stuff, not a SpyderPrint or even i1Studio ;-) Paper suppliers profiles are often very good these days - I've helped some of the suppliers in the past!

[@holograms4188]

@@KeithCooper the videos are usually printers offering a print service. Telling their customers they use custom profiles which makes them better than other printers who are using the manufacturer’s profiles. I.e they’re trying to tell their customer to order prints from them as the color correctness will be better than from another shop. But you think the manufacturers work just fine?

[@KeithCooper]

As I suspected - marketing hokum! ;-) Can you tell I don't sell stuff! The manufacturers profiles often work very well. Years ago they were of variable quality, but not so much any more. Yes, custom profiling _can_ make a difference sometimes, just a difference that few will notice... ;-)

[@holograms4188]

@@KeithCooper haha ok. Thanks Keith I appreciate the response

[@thombrouwer4162]

Thank you Keith for your explanatory video's with your no nonsense approach, I really quite like them and they're definitely informative. Since I live in a touristy region, I do quite regularly sell some prints that I've been outsourcing up till now. As you may understand, at the moment I'm looking in to producing them myself. I've been diving in this rabbit hole called 'printing' for some time now and I think I'm getting the substance, but I think I'm missing one sub-step and can't quite find an answer. I understand the ICC profiles are vital when printing, but what about the ICC profiles of the (photo)files itself? Do they have to be saved in the same printing ICC profile (so they match up as much as possible), or would you advice to save them in the highest possible colourspace (Adobe RGB / ProPhoto RGB)?

[@KeithCooper]

Glad you find the videos helpful! For images, I never convert them to an output profile - it invariably loses some information and is effectively a one-way process (much like using CMYK) As to choice of working space, it does depend on the original image and what software you are using for editing. For images with really strong colours I'll often save in ProPhoto, even if no screen made can display them (some can be printed though). See this article for much more on the subject: www.northlight-images.co.uk/a-photo-print-of-some-bright-red-flowers/ This is the sort of article I find very difficult to adequately cover in a video, since there is a lot of detail and examples included. For the written articles I can edit/refine/update/correct them - videos are just stuck as-is (I don't script them)

[@femstarpremium6685]

Hey there, I just bought an Epson ET 16600 printer and I am having difficulty printing out 12” x 18” prints on it, do you have any advice? It would really help me to figure it out know you have never reviewed this model Epson on your channel but you appear to have tons of experience with Epson eco tank printers. Thank you for all your help in advance !!!

[@KeithCooper]

Sorry - not a printer I've ever seen. By the looks of it, it's a 4 colour out and out office printer, not the sort I tend to cover very often. It looks to have the same inks as the WF C8690 I looked at, so some of that review may be relevant www.northlight-images.co.uk/epson-wf-c8690-printer-review/

[@lauralynneh]

are printing profiles the same as icc profiles? Thanks

[@KeithCooper]

Yes, they are sometimes called that. ICC profiles can cover many different things. Printer ICC profiles are ones for a specific purpose [usually for a specific paper on a specific printer]

[@fredwestinghouse2945]

In your Mac OS Print Basic dialog box, you set the Media Type (and other settings). Why don't you set ICM at the same time? In Windows, in the Printing Preferences dialog box, there is a "Mode" drop-down box. One of the options in there is ICM. After choosing that, click the Advanced button next to this drop-down box. This takes you to the Printer Color Adjustment dialog box. Next do the following: 1) Set the ICM Mode to Host ICM. This means the colors will be driven by the host software, eg Photoshop, Lightroom etc. 2) Click the Show All Profiles check box. 3) Select the Intent - usually either Perceptual or Relative Colorimetric. 4) In the Printer Profile, click the drop-down box and choose the ICC Profile you want to use. 5) Click OK to get out of that dialog box. Give these settings an appropriate name and save it. Now when you choose this printer setting from your image editing software, it will automatically select the correct ICC Profile. I do not own a Mac computer. I guess if you click the Advanced button in the Print dialog box, you will be able to set ICM as I can in Windows. Would you choose to use this method henceforth? If not, why not? Thanks.

[@KeithCooper]

ICM is not a thing on the Mac, so it's different. Profiles are normally set in the application We don't have a win pc in the building, so I'll be sticking to the Mac stuff, since it's general principles I'm covering, not step by step guides

[@gosman949]

Are you using a PC? I don't show color management. I just have mode: off. Media type is the paper profile. This way the paper profile prevails, not the printer.

[@KeithCooper]

Nope, Mac only here The example I give is mainly for those not appreciating the difference between icc profile and media setting. Actual details of use are covered lots of times elsewhere and vary a lot in detail... PC or Mac isn't important in this instance. A question I had made me realise that the difference was not clear to some, hence this particular video. There are a lot of things I miss out, not to cloud the basic question - In a written article I'd be a lot more precise - but people don't like reading ;-) :-)

[@fredwestinghouse2945]

When you create an ICC Profile - you know the paper, the media type and the printer/ink. Does the ICC Profile you create contain all this information? I'll make an assumption that it does. So, after installing the ICC Profile, I use Epron Print Layout to print my image. In EPL, as soon as I select the appropriate ICC Profile, the software should automatically set the Media Type. In which case the Media Type option should not be there at all! Plus, if the ICC Profile had that information embedded, the end user won't need to hunt around paper seller's websites searching for the correct Media Type. My next assumption - the ICC Profile does not have that information embedded in it. If so, it can lead to people using one ICC Profile and then accidentally selecting a wrong Media Type. Please tell me, does the ICC Profile have that information? If it does, why does the software not use it?

[@KeithCooper]

A icc profile does not contain media settings. I include an abbreviated media name in the name of my profiles to remind me. If you create a custom media type it is possible to associate a profile with it - this will then behave as the Epson profiles do. They have no media info in them either btw

[@fredwestinghouse2945]

Someone needs to push the industry. Spectrophotometer and printer software need to have this information. Take it out of the hands of the paper sellers and end user. Cut out errors.

[@KeithCooper]

There is no support for such specific media information in icc profiles. That is not what they address There is no 'push' at all in this area - not sure who would anyway...@@fredwestinghouse2945

[@fredwestinghouse2945]

I am saying, in a clumsy way, cut out errors. Streamline the process. Solve user problems.