Khatra in Turkish Archery and the Related Arrow Dynamics

Thumb release (Mongolian release) is a sophisticated shooting technique that has ben developed in a geography where the armies consisted of professional soldiers employed full-time. That's why many eastern martial arts, especially archery, have techniques that are difficult to master and have high sensitivity in execution. Here I discuss the "hatra" and its influence on early arrow oscillation.

[@TobyMottershead_]

At last a clear explanation of spine dynamics in relation to thumb release - amazing! Thanks for sharing your research Murat. 🏹

[@abdulkabza]

Thank you very much!

[@jareth7456]

Thank you pir Murat this research is of monumental historical importance and it something that has been needed for a long time. May God bless your journey.

[@jasonpercy184]

Thank you for sharing so much of your knowledge.

[@MedievalTrebuchet]

awesome! great to see people researching stuff like this

[@rondumontier1187]

I currently learning the foreward style khatra with thumb ring. Great video

[@PsychedelicChameleon]

Thank you for this work!

[@BrianCx]

I was looking forward to the infrared capture video footage, especially more slow motion capture with the arrow flight in the field! Looking forward to more on the technicals of thumb release. I've only JUST started doing the proper hatra and its vastly improved my usage.

[@hachiman69air]

Very good video and awesome research work 😉

[@-----REDACTED-----]

I have not been able to read much yet, but as someone who is learning Korean traditional archery let me thank you for your research in this interesting field! Also, the comment section here is a wonderful treasure trove!

[@sedatdanaci4748]

Magnificent explanations. Thanks Murat Özveri 👏👏👏👏👏

[@abdulkabza]

Thanks a lot!

[@KangRoyArchery]

thank you. this video is very important to me

[@naradasunda5326]

hello nice to meet me from indonesia heheeee

[@henryshoots]

Wow, would love to see the presentation in video if you have it!

[@baliocelot2537]

Wow very interesting.

[@Lost_Hwasal]

As a practicioner of KTA. It seems to me that khatra replicates the conveniences of a center shot bow, allowing for stiffer spines. When you have a centershot bow with a stiffer spine arrow, the arrow oscillates less, which means less energy was transferred to deformation of the arrow and more to speed of the arrow, explaining the increase in speed. Think of shooting a spring vs shooting a straight stick. KTA archers will even use khatra to change their left to right impact. What a thought-provoking video you have posted.

[@abdulkabza]

Thank you for your great feed-back! An exaggerated hatra does change the impact point as you mentioned.

[@h0tkoko]

Impressive

[@comfusedpassanger3399]

I`m bought my first Asian style bow after years with western recurve, etc. "The loong draw length is sweet! I wonder if I will go back.. Thanks for your videoes they are very interesting.

[@kimolsson9386]

Could you please do a video on how to perform Khatra from your point of view?

[@ILhamKambaa]

Thanks...

[@fintonmainz7845]

Great video. Thank you. I don't understand why KZbin hasn't recommended this to me before.

[@abdulkabza]

I don't now what kind of algorythm they have but I do have the same problem. Some goo videoa remain at the bottom of the list while some bullshit is recommended by KZbin.

[@fintonmainz7845]

@@abdulkabza Several times a week I watch videos on "horse bows". It's surprising this video wasn't recommended.

[@abdulkabza]

@@fintonmainz7845 There is rumour around saying that higher view-rates are achieved by paying KZbin to increase the priority in searching. I have no idea whether it is correct or not, but like and recommend it if you liked. Thanks!

[@ToquzOghuzKhaganatekhan]

I am going bro !

[@Daylon91]

Forward sideways khatra I thought was one as well or a combo of both and you should check out Ishis thumb draw and release. He also does khatra and he was a native from Northern California or southern California.

[@christking85]

Okay so now we need to get you a better camera and microphone with good slow motion. Very interesting stuff and would like to hear/see more. Difficult to see all the paper tears to see the difference. Gonna go research you know to see what else I can learn from you. Thank you for your video.

[@edmungo]

Very informative! Sir, I would like to ask you for the length and tip weight (+insert) of the arrows used in the video? Just to get an idea. Also is there a dramatic change in spine spectrum if I would go for a persian or sassanid draw?

[@abdulkabza]

Alwin Lorenz the arrows are tipped with lighter target points w direct glue-in connection. Weight shud be somewhere at 80 grains if I am not mistaken. Thumb release w a rigid and well-made thunbring it ia possible to have a gpod arrow flight with a very range spectrum. Unfortunately I have bo experience w Sassanid draw, so can't say anything about the ballistics of it.

[@edmungo]

Thank you very much for the info!

[@JorgeSantos-nl8he]

Excelente master class,Dr. Murat.Very enlightning! Could you,please,explaine what this words mean(Ferke or Fetre)? Thank you very much!

[@abdulkabza]

Thank you very much! Ferke is an Arabic word referring to the disconnection of the pulling hand and string. So, it is "release". The root of the word is "frk" which means disconnect, seperate, divide...etc. Although Turks brought their archery know-how from Central Asia they adopted many terms from both Persian and Arabic languages.

[@JorgeSantos-nl8he]

@@abdulkabza thank you very much,Dr. Murat. Great pleasure!👍

[@baseermirza2947]

Can you make a video on how to grip the bow

[@robsarcheryworld9679]

nice

[@MIKEKESWICK]

Thanks for the reply!I have bought some 400 spine shafts, cut them to 29 inches and have 110 grain points/inserts fitted. They are definitely better than the 500 spine shafts however they are still hitting the grip a little. I can see just past halfway (towards the nock) along the shafts that they have still been hitting the grip as there is a 'scuff' mark on them.Now it's got to be my technique! I will practise some more and see what I can do. I suspect it has to do with my 'ferke' or more correctly the lack of it! Is this performed once full draw has been reached or whilst actually drawing?Thanks for your help :)

[@abdulkabza]

+Eclipse Archery The arrow leaves some wear on arrow pass because the inner ballstic with thumb release is completely diffferent than that of Mediterennean release. they are NOT the mirror image of each other But hitting the grip mustn't occur if the technique is executed correctly.

[@TaufiqHidayatAb]

Mantap

[@MIKEKESWICK]

Another interesting video :)I managed to make a thumbring that fits and doesn't hurt at all. However now that I am shooting with it (same arrows that work well for a 3 finger release) my arrows are hitting off the side of the grip? I cannot seem to correct it, I think my technique is ok but still the arrows hit off the grip. My bow is a 55#@28 Turkish hornbow and I have been using 500 spine carbon arrows with 100grain points. Do you think my arrows are to blame or is it my technique? I can do a video of me shooting if that would help.Thanks

[@abdulkabza]

+Eclipse Archery Hi! Yes it may be the arrows to blame. They seem to be too weak. Always pick up a stiffer shaft compare to the same draw weight-draw length combination shot with three finger release. I think, .500 spine is weak even for three finger release if you shoot 55#. However, it may be due to an inproper technique. If you have plucking during release or if your "ferke" (twisting the wrist of the string nand to have s light pressure onto the arrow) is insufficient, the arrows may hit off the grip

[@fiatcampagnolaadventures]

Thank you very interesting! A question: is the way of flying of the two arrows in slow motion normal for the "Turkish bow with ring"? With the arrow point all the way to the left for many meters? Shouldn't the arrow always point towards the target with more and more dampened elastic oscillations? I ask you this because I also recently started shooting with the Turkish bow with the thumb ring and my arrows also fly in the same way and I can't correct this even by changing the spines on the arrows.

[@abdulkabza]

With a good hatra it should leave the bow with minimum oscillation and its tip should point the target all the way.

[@fiatcampagnolaadventures]

@@abdulkabza Thank you! In the two slow motion videos, did you shoot with a good hatra?

[@TarpShooter]

Tesekkurler video icin! Baslangic olarak nasil bir Turk yayi oneririsiniz? Belli bir marka veya malzeme var mi onerebileceginiz?

[@abdulkabza]

Lasgalen Merhaba! Tirendaz web sitesine göz atarsanız, testlerini yaptğmz yaylar ve test sonuçlaryla ilgili videolar var. Siz yardımcı olacaktır. Genel olarak, cam lifi ve epoksi reçineden mamul all-resin modeller başlangıç seviyesi için daha iyidir.

[@Rijotan]

I am very curious as to the 2 different kinds of Khatra. Which one makes for a straighter arrow flight? How does the 2 differ in arrow flight? Which would you recommend?

[@abdulkabza]

+Rijotan A side-jump of the bow provides more stability in arrow flight.

[@louiemoore8739]

@@abdulkabza I agree although it was harder for me to execute

[@Rajhamsa]

Hey I left a comment here a while ago and ive been thinking/experimenting on this. What i never considered is, why didnt they make the bows so that the string doesnt align with the centre of the handle, but instead the right side, so that it acts like a centershot bow? Or did they? Im interested in what you think.

[@abdulkabza]

It is not easy to determine whether they made the bows to have the string alined a bit off-center since the original bows are too old and cannot be strung. Even if they can be strung their tillering would be not the same. They should have been changed. Theoretically it is possible but would increase the risk/danger of ejecting the string during release. But please remember that the Turkish arrows were chested or barrelled and at full draw the arrow gets closer to the center of the bow, more or less. Secondly, the "archer's paradox" with thumb release is NOT the mirror image of that occur in Mediterennean release. In thumb draw the arrow oes not complete a full bending cycle. So, the inner balistic is different.

[@maxm00d]

Anywhere we can access the research papers, I am assuming they have published it now?

[@abdulkabza]

It was presented in the form of a poster presentation only to my best knowledge.

[@abdulkabza]

In terms of price-performance ratio, Grozer Turkish bows are feasable. Turkish base model is OK, not fast but quite durable and good to resist the torture of beginners.

[@abdulkabza]

Merhaba! Bazı videolarım Türkçe, ama daha teknik videoları genellikle İngilizce yapıyorum. Bunun sebebi, Türkiye'de geleneksel okçuluğun garip bir yola sapmış olması. Soydaşlarımın çoğu geleneksel okçuluğu hamâsî hislerle ve motivlerle ya da sığ bir sporcu ihtirasıyla güdülerek yapıyorlar; arka planındaki sofistikasyonla ilgilenmiyorlar, bilgiye iltifat etmiyorlar. Ben de talebe göre arz oluşturuyorum. Konuyla ilgili sormak istediğiniz ve İngilizcesi'nden takip edemediğiniz noktalar varsa sorabilirsiniz. Saygılar.

[@5tonyvvvv]

Are any self bows made in Turkey? Or Only Horn horse bows? Any simple longbows or sinew backed bows ever made??

[@abdulkabza]

Probably yes! There is some evidence for the existence of both types of bow but not veru strong...

[@MyAmpWamp]

Sir can you make a video explaining nuances how to perform khatra, please. Is it preloaded in the grip, pushed by thumb? I'm learning and making bows by myself so every tutorials like this is very helpfull and beneficial to popularise traditional archery. I tried many ways but I'm not sure what is correct.

[@abdulkabza]

Hatra is the natural outcome of correct bow grip. The pre-applied forces push the grip forward or outwards depending on the intended style of hatra. Learning how to flex some minor muacles and relax some others during release is difficult though.

[@MyAmpWamp]

@@abdulkabza Thanks. I should firmly grip the bow a bit rotated outward and keep this pressure until the movement is automaticaly released in shot? What angle is recommended?

[@abdulkabza]

@@MyAmpWamp some experimentation is needed as it is almost impossible to describe it in words

[@leon017]

Murat Hocam,Türkce olarakta yayinlarsaniz hatra konusunda bizde dogru bilgilere ulasiriz.

[@bunyaminbaysal2620]

Turkce yada inglizce alt yazi olsaydi cok iyi olurdu. En azindan anlamadigimiz kelimeleri translate den cevirebilirdik. Emeginize saglik videolarinizdan cok sey ogreniyorum.

[@abdulkabza]

İlginize ve eleştirilerinize çok teşekkür ederim.

[@alparsalanfurusiyya1861]

What the different style of khatra like you (the bow "turn/move" to left) with khatra } turn/move to down?

[@abdulkabza]

I prefer the rotation but I am practicing and teaching both.

[@Dan0e30]

Has anyone hunted game(animals) using khatra? I mostly hunt small game (grouse, rabbits and squirrels) have been working with two types of khatra. One being the sideways movement of the bow hand, and the other being the tilt forward and sideways movement of the bow hand. There seem to be a lot of discussion about the extra speed of the "tilt and twist" release. However I have noticed a few times this season that animals seem to notice that movement more then just twisting the bow slightly. Giving them time to move just enough for me to miss. I shoot an AF Archery Turkish bow that's 55lbs @ 28 inches that I draw to 30 inches. Just wondering if anyone else has had this issue?

[@abdulkabza]

As far as I know rare only a few bowhunters who hunt with Asian bows and by using thumb release. I doubt if the hatra movement would spook the game since the arrow is already on the way, maybe even on the game when the bow makes a noticable movement. However, a sharp-short twist is more than enough for the clearence of the arrow and if it works keep doing it for successful shots.

[@cw4karlschulte661]

Cok iyi ders efendim! Turkmusunuz? Ben cok seneler TC/yurdunuz icin calisdim. Turkiye bastan basta gezdim. Cok guzrl ve interesan, fakat hic ok spor bulmadim, maalesef. Sag ol! Karl / Kadri

[@abdulkabza]

Merhaba Karl bey! Bu kadar zaman sonra hâlâ anlaşılır, iyi bir Türkçe konuşuyorsunuz. Bravo! Evet, Türk'üm! Geleneksel okçuluk kültürümüz I. Dünya Savaşı öncesi gerilemeye başlamış ve ortadan kalkmıştı. 2000'lerin başında yeniden canlandırmaya başladık. Bu sebeple, Türkiye'de yaşadığınız zamanda geleneksel okçuluk ile ilgili bir şeye rastlamamış olmanız normal.

[@maxpark1339]

Do you think you can do a tutorial video on the Khatra? i feel like it's utter crap if i don't execute it with proper form and technique

[@abdulkabza]

Yes, you're right! It is very execution-sensitive and it takes time and effort to execute it well. I agree with you. Making a tutorial would be fine!.

[@maxpark1339]

+abdulkabza thank you brother! salutations from a Korean

[@mohamedayob9246]

hi what bow do you recommend for a beginner ,good quality and not expensive

[@abdulkabza]

+mohamed ayob Grozer's basic model is good in terms of price-performance ratio. Not a fast bow but tough and good-looking, resistant enough for the mis-use and torture of beginners.

[@edemardil]

Recommend any bows that I can get in the USA?

[@abdulkabza]

Sorry! I am not in know of the Asian bows in the US market. If you know some, please do not hesitate to ask. I'd give recommendatitions if I have any experience or info about them.

[@AlfaRevoluzione]

I shot de arrows on de right side wid Med. 2 Finger under Release and my Arrows are straight on any Distance. Before i let off i pinch de String to de right side, and dat is like you shot wid thumb stylee.

[@abdulkabza]

+Martin Spörri Interesting! Do you have any video footage?

[@AlfaRevoluzione]

+abdulkabza yes i did it yesterday. i was already in de bed. check out my channel. greetings

[@op7rseus853]

I have experimented with the method Martin sporri uses. It does indeed modulate the arrow flight and straighten it out, but it requires a lot of movement, like a flailing of the arm, mega khatra. thumb draw is far more sensitive to khatra and does not require much of it, and sometimes none. i guess it depends on what your application is (exhibition shooting vs hunting vs target vs war). the traditional methods seem to be the most robust and best at reducing human error under situations of stress.

[@crististefan6065]

60#?

[@TN-kg2lv]

In turkish bow, is there ever any issues with the bow destringing from the sideways torque? I only have experience with korean bows and it handles sideways torque with out a problem. I'm wondering because the string grooves in turkish bows are different from korean.

[@abdulkabza]

There is no string bridge in Turkish bow. Poorly made bowa may be destrung during shot independent frm the torque for hatra.

[@TN-kg2lv]

@@abdulkabza Thanks. So sideways torque shouldn't be a problem for a properly made turkish bows?

[@abdulkabza]

@@TN-kg2lv Most of the originals are quite heavy, 90-120 #@28. I doubt if they can be torqued effectively.

[@TN-kg2lv]

@@abdulkabza I see, so side ways hatra was probably used with lighter bows then?

[@abdulkabza]

@@TN-kg2lv I really don't know. I shot bows upto 86 lbs with a mpre or less sideways hatra. There were heavier bows but we can assume that Middle Eastern professional soldiers were stronger than the modern hobby archers

[@mohamedayob9246]

in all hadith theirs a mention of Arabian bow may ask what this bow is?

[@abdulkabza]

+mohamed ayob They are selfbow. In pre-and early Islamic era the composite bows were not known in the Arabic penninsula. The woods used in making Prophet's bow are also mentiones. As far as I know, there is no evidence about a sinew-backed or compostie design. The "Arab bow" as can be seen in the Topkapi Palace Museum's collection or as mentioned in later treatises 8mamluk for example) refers to a composite bow. But, as said, it is of a later design.

[@UFarcher]

I heard turkish archers were able to shoot extremely low spined arrows because of the hatra. Is that correct?

[@abdulkabza]

***** Thumb release requires a little bit higher spine but technically it is possible to "get on well" with weaker shafts as well, but it takes quite a perfect release technique.

[@AngaralGamer]

Abi Türkçe olarak veya altyazılı olarak yayınlar misin ?

[@abdulkabza]

Maalesef bunun vakit kaybı olduğunu düşünüyorum. Türkçe veya Türkçe altyazılı videolar İngilizce olanlar kadar çok izlenmiyor.

[@AngaralGamer]

haklısınız aslında ama sizin gibi okçuluk alanında yararlı videolar çeken fazla kişi yok,ne kadar İngilizce bilsek de fazla anlayamiyoruz,Türkiyede okçuluğun gelişmesi lazım yabancı ülkelerde okçuluk zaten gelişmiş durumda

[@abdulkabza]

Tirendaz'ın web sitesinde, bilgi peşinde koşan Türk meraklıları doyuracak şekilde bol miktarda, bilgiyle dolu makaleler yayınlıyoruz. Site irtibat adresine yazılan doğru düzgün soruların hepsini de cevaplıyoruz.

[@Rajhamsa]

In western archery styles, they teach you not to torque the bow because it can lead to inconsistency. In khatra, you are deliberately torquing the bow. How does one torque the bow the same amount every time? Thanks

[@abdulkabza]

It is mainly because the arrow is on the right side and because thumbring's narrow ledge causes less rotation of the string on the vertical axis. As a result the arrow shaft bends less and fpr better clearance the bow shud be torqued. You're right about the consistency problem. Thumb draw is harder to master. But it has not been a prblm fr ancient eastern warrior since he was a professional who bagn practicing ar very early ages and kept practicing daily.

[@Rajhamsa]

@@abdulkabza thanks! Guess I'll just keep practising.

[@abdulkabza]

@@Rajhamsa 😁Yeah!

[@abdullahelwan405]

Nice bow what is it ?

[@abdulkabza]

It was a Grozer.laminated with leather cover. A prototype that served well for years.

[@abdullahelwan405]

abdulkabza thx and Salam from Aleppo

[@abdulkabza]

@@abdullahelwan405 Alaykum salam!

[@AwengChannel]

Alhamdulillah

[@muratdemircanada]

Hi DR. Murat, 2 years later here I am watching this video again. I have been shooting a sammick Korean bow with the thumb ring. I was getting somewhat Ok, then I wanted to be even better with my groupings and straighten the arrow flights as the arrow leaves the bow. I remembered your "khatra" related videos and watched them. In those videos, it seems like you are "canting" a little... I apologize for my ignorance and it may sound stupid after all my shooting practices but I need to ask this question before it becomes more complicated for me. In general, if you are thumb ring shooter, especially if you are canting, which side of the bow are you looking/seeing your target from? I thought you would see the target from where ever your arrow is, but how does it work when you "cant"? I guess three fingers under archers would have broader sight window comparing to eastern thumb ring archers. I might be looking from the wrong side of the bow for all these times?

[@abdulkabza]

Thank you very much for this smart question! I am mainly an instinctive shooter and do not need to see the arrow point to take it as a reference unlike the 3-finger shooters. That way I can shoot from almost any position, even when canting the bow 90 degrees. Canting the bow makes my sight picture larger, especially when I am shooting aerial targets for which following the moving target in just seconds requires better sight. I was looking from the left side of the bow but nevr took any reference point such as a part of the bow or anything. However, in the last few years, I have been experimenting with conscious aiming methods like split vision, where you again look thru the left side of the bow but take a reference. It increases the success/accuracy in target shooting but makes shooting less combat-true. Alternatives would be using a lower anchor, to the chest for example, "sinekeş" as named in Persian sources, which allows the archer see the arrow point and target thru the right side of the bow. Here he/she can line the arrow up the target. Looking thru the right side with a higher anchor point is still possible if the bow is relatively long, and/or if a "weird" head position is used. But, you can simply have a higher anchor and change your grip to see thru the right side. Çeng-i baz (cheng-i baz) or "hawk talon" is a high-wrist grip that helps seeing the target thru the right side. Of course, the bow cannot be canted in these two cases. In early May my second book will be available. It is titled "Türk Yayı ve Av" and contains information about these aiming techiques. I am going tomake a video for the promotion of the book.

[@muratdemircanada]

abdulkabza,. Thank you for the reply. I learned a lot from your videos and replys to the comments.. I have been trying instinctive shooting with my Korean bow (next one will be either Turkish or Tatar bow). Never used arrow or part of the bow as a reference. Always looking at the target ( seeing only the target ) from arrow side of the bow. View from the arrow side with conventional thumb ring shooting is limited as you mentioned. But I think I will stay with authentic eastern style since I have no intention to compete or hunt. My accuracy does not have to be perfect. Once in awhile I hit a coffee cup at 20 yard and feel good about it. I googled "hawk talon" and could not get much information. Lots of info on "high wrist grip". I believe that is what I need for my set up because my bow hand is not comfortable while gripping and pulling to the full draw. I looked up traditional Korean grips, it seems to be the answer to my tendon pain on upper part of forearm. Plus traditional Korean bow gripping technique itself is helping to pre loading the torque/side khatra. Now all I need to do is figuring out "how to make one" for my bow. Thanks again for all your valuable time and information. Have a great day.

[@abdulkabza]

If you have pain at the back of the forearm, it is probably epicondylitis lateralis, also known as "tennis elbow", is one of the most common injuries archers face. Rest 1 to 2 weeks, appy ice pack 20 mins twice a day, warm-up throughly before shooting. You may also consider wearing a epicondyl-band to support the head of the tendon, both to protect and help heal the inflammation.

[@muratdemircanada]

Thank you very much for the advice. I will take this seriously before it gets worst.

[@nezirsofcu649]

Türkçe konuşsanız yada bi türkçe altyazı falan koysanız

[@mustamuri]

✨🧸✨🙂👍

[@razorseal]

Khatraya turckece ne diyoruz? Hatra?

[@abdulkabza]

Kelime Arapça ve gırtlaktan gelen "h" işe söyleniyor. İngilizce'de doğru telaffuz edilebilmesi için "kh" şeklinde yazılıyor. İstanbul Türkçesi'nde bu "h" olmadığı için kelimeyi "hatra" şeklinde yazmak ve telaffuz etmek gerekir. Bizde "Halit" haline gelmiş ismin Arapça'dan İngilizce'ye "Khaled" diye transkripte edilmesi gibi, video İngilizce olduğundan bu imlâyı kullandım.

[@user-fm4br7mb5n]

600 like 👍

[@TheDave570]

Do you not place your chin on your shoulder cavity ?? it's proper form, yes ??

[@abdulkabza]

No, it is not. Please watch my videos about shooting with siper!

[@sevcanatesoglu3935]

Ingilizceniz çok iyi

[@jareth7456]

Pronation is very slight

[@abdulkabza]

As much as needed.

[@user-hg7pd5ze1f]

I do not see the position of hour hand. How do you hold the bow? Which are the points of contact? I do not care about your groups. Mostly talk, not useful.

[@abdulkabza]

Who said that the video is a tutorial?

[@UtoniumTr]

Senin yaylar ile alakan olmasa bile tipine bakarak Kemankeş derdim.

[@abdulkabza]

😆