Observation of 'Khatra' and 'Arrow-slap' in Slow-mo 활 쏘기 카츠라 관찰

[@johnbland1585]

Thanks for taking the time to make this this video. I never thought it mattered much if there was a little slap at the bow on the release. The magic of slow motion. Great work, this is what the old archers knew and most of us today dont have time or patience for. Literally need to slow down.

[@iyoo1]

thank you. yes, i need to slow down. ;)

[@RosssRoyce]

I’m an almost complete beginner with this type of bow and the only advise I can give you, based on what works for me, is a “well dosed kathra”, when I do it too open and free it actually makes the arrow fly in a curved path for some reason. When I snap it short and restrained it turns well timed and brushless. I can’t reproduce it each time, it’s kind of like I apply a stopping brake at the end of the miniature kathra. It’s just an image that helps me proportion better the dynamic which works. Cheers!

[@jasonpercy184]

I just learned a lot from that . I've been driving myself crazy trying to figure out where the slap I hear is happening and when . Those slow mo views show exactly what's happening. I'm definitely making some of the oak intercontinental ballistic missiles too. That is a beast of an arrow . I subscribed on this video. Well done man !

[@iyoo1]

thanks. glad you liked it. :)

[@ianbruce6515]

Rock Maple is good for a heavy shaft. They used to be available

[@egbertypma1122]

Have a look at Armin Hirner. He initiates the release with his bow hand. This then also initiates the khatra with proper timing.

[@darkpassenger65]

Thank you for the video. I am brand new at this form of archery and your high-speed overhead video really helps to understand the concept of Khatra.

[@BrianCx]

Great slow-mo video shots! First, as I was corrected, it's 'hatra' with the 'kh' spelling being an English annotation of the guttural 'h' pronunciation from the throat. Second, I'll describe what I've learned from my own analysis, and hopefully you'll see it too. Khatra as I've come to know it, means nothing more than 'the end pose of an archer after release, showing where your muscle tension is & is-not', aka: follow through. Notice in this video your hand & arm movements just after release: your draw-hand moves away from your face, and your bow-hand moves directly left; this means your muscle tension is pulling your hands & arms in these directions during the draw-release cycle. I've personally greatly improved and cleaned my release by really focusing on correcting these two movements in myself. It feels as if I'm: pulling my rear shoulder back through my draw, my front shoulder forward, and my hand reaching into the target with the lower joint of the thumb (thus rotating the bow-arm) - all as a 'dynamic recoil-release' effect. I believe this dynamic release is described in the green "Arab Archery" book, as best as it the author could describe it: 'punching' into the target, but should be more correctly described as 'reaching' to the target. In my video "KTB 1" I'm focusing on the above described, while pulling my draw-hand behind my head (isolating the back and forearm muscles), and you'll notice my draw-hand stops and rests on my shoulder, without any other movement. I believe this is only half of what's needed for a clean release. Now If I could only not work so much to the point I wake up and can't close my hand ('death grip syndrome'), or my forearms and wrists laden with tendonitis have a chance to heal, I might be inclined to make a video on my 'final form'.... :( Until then, I must live vicariously through people like you! Also: that 1/2" dowel, I been there! It drops like a rock vs. other arrows, but it hits hard! Lol. Great experiments! Keep at it if you can!

[@iyoo1]

Brian C. thanks for insights. i have seen your videos on khatra (hatra) and now i'm barely getting the point. yes, i have issue with release and body alignment. release hand going off the line, throwing my hands outward. still working one it. ^_^;; hope you get better and start making archery videos soon again. i learn a lot from others like you. ;) thank you.

[@SlingOfDavid9000]

Hi Brian C loved your videos as well they are very beneficial. When are u planing to upload more? :-)

[@BrianCx]

@@SlingOfDavid9000 When I can wake up able to close my hand, or holding a cup of water isn't a task I need to focus on... Making another vid is definitely on my mind and something I've been wanting to do, but my work fatigues my back & grip muscles to the point I can't use 'em. Until then I got iyoo1 to watch and envy :)

[@jatisatrio]

@@BrianCx hi brian how is your condition now? I think I got some issue like you, my left pinky is suffering trigger finger because I'm holding my bow too hard and it's already about 2 months I can't clench my hand properly.

[@BrianCx]

@@jatisatrio My issues are still ongoing unfortunately as a result of what I do for work (which is seasonal). If you can, avoid alcohol (I know it temporarily helps/feels good), stretch your hand muscles, and do your best to take a while to rest and recover. Besides cannabis, this is the best I've found as it's all about resting the muscles/tendons for recovery.

[@TheIncredibleLions]

I'm trying to learn khatra, too~ When I shoot arrows, it's so disheartening to hear the sound of the arrow slap and to see the damage to the arrow pass on my Kheshig from Alibow lol

[@iyoo1]

keep at it, dude. it takes time but worth it. ;)

[@jake4194]

Most of it is just not gripping the bow too tight. It needs to be able to move in your hand during the shot.

[@0ooTheMAXXoo0]

See "simple khatra" by Armin Hirmer. Anyone can learn this technique, my kids did it from the first try...

[@kevinmaughan9445]

Great video. Im new to thumb release and archery. Thumb release feels so natural.

[@iyoo1]

thank you. same way here. started with 3 fingers and thumb felt better. :)

[@kevinmaughan9445]

@@iyoo1 are you long practicing thumb release.

[@iyoo1]

@@kevinmaughan9445 not sure what you are asking.

[@kevinmaughan9445]

@@iyoo1 sorry. Just wondering how long you are doing archery

[@iyoo1]

@@kevinmaughan9445 i have been doing it about 5 years. started with compound bow, 3 finger shooting to now asiatic reflex bows with thumb release. still learning as i'm going.

[@paradox_1729]

Oh this is really well done. Shows the purpose of Khatra really well.

[@iyoo1]

thanks. i like to make a better one if i had better camera that can capture better slowmo. :)

[@paradox_1729]

@@iyoo1 I think the most important bit is demonstrated really well, which is the purpose of khatra being to remove the arrow slap. There are some videoes on youtube that claim that it improves arrow speed with a final push, as an engineer I find that to be a somewhat ridiculous claim. Either way this will really help me improve my khatra now that I fully understand the purpose.

[@iyoo1]

@@paradox_1729 i haven't heard that claim. if i have to assume, friction would work as minus. regardless i love hearing about a perspective from engineering point of view. as you know there are some miss information about archery since lots of us are not engineers and being taught by books and words of mouth. i love objective, factual information. so please put it out there if you see anything you can add. i greatly appreciate it. :)

[@marektaziar5402]

Paper test also shows how good release is. Or shooting at close distances like 3m, and watching arrow nock movement in the target. Or shooting bareshaft.

[@iyoo1]

paper test can be next step. thank you. :)

[@paradox_1729]

whats the paper test?

[@AnoNymous-p5y9v]

I have been attempting khatra for a few weeks now. The only way I can do it consistently is to hold the bow in such a way that it will be automatically be moved when arrow is released. The bow hand needs to be under tension when pulling the bow so that the riser goes out of the way of the arrow (down and/or to the side).

[@rorobinou2810]

Really nice and useful video. Have you tried twisting the string with right hand before release ? There's an amazing slo-mo footage by Armin Hirmer showing how much it improves arrow flight

[@iyoo1]

thanks. and, yes, i have and still working on it. releasing is a lot more difficult than i thought it was, especially in higher poundage bows. i also learn a lot from Armin's videos. :)

[@vaportrail226]

Nicely done video. Thank you!

[@iyoo1]

thank you :)

[@Cogitovision]

Thanks for the video. I was wondering how khatra affected the arrow flight. In particular, how the movement of the bow arm would not throw the aim off. It seems that if done right, the bow doesn't move until the arrow has cleared the bow.

[@iyoo1]

thanks. yes, that's what i'm aiming for. it's much harder with heavier bow. :)

[@erithanis]

Yea. That's what I got the most out of this video. In looking up khatra a bunch of sources make a big deal about the archer "moving the bow out of the arrow's way". That seemed ridiculous based on human reaction times. And your video clearly shows the bow hand not moving until the arrow is past the bow, in both successful and unsuccessful releases. I intuited that it must be a different part of the release process causing the difference. And now I know to ignore advice about moving the bow hand, except as a useful follow-through motion.

[@dan-xxx-8713]

realy nice vid! love it!

[@iyoo1]

thanks :)

[@Jezzyftw]

seems to me that spine mattered quite a bit there. it looks a lot like the 340 spine arrow and the heavy oak arrow came out the straightest consistently. Or at least more easily on the first try. I think a heavy spine is favored more in this cas?

[@royalecrafts6252]

with that amount of draw kg, yes a heavy spine is better, aluminum arrow shafts are my choice, they experience the least amount of woobling as well

[@Jezzyftw]

After looking at the video again; I agree more that it was your khatra allowing the softer arrows to fly correctly. However; now I'm curious how a 250 spine carbon arrow flights out of your bow I'm thinking of getting a set at a local shop (discount ;D and I know no one wants those arrows)

[@김혜자-s1j]

아주아주 좋아요

[@iyoo1]

^_^

[@cherno2232]

Holy shit that oak arrow must pack a punch with that weight. You are basicly shooting big chungus ammo

[@kristoffkris1429]

Great video kevin.i have been share my video too with kaiyuan bow 35 lbs with ramin arrow. Test drive busur kaiyuan 35 lbs di 30m @jarpul archery..

[@miguelveratraditionalarche9374]

100% with your analysis. Thanks for sharing

[@iyoo1]

always appreciate it. thank you. :)

[@MiaogisTeas]

Interesting! Thank you 🙏

[@iyoo1]

thanks you. ;)

[@MisakNR]

Hello, nice video and keep training untill perfect you are on the right way :). I have noticed that on some shot just before the release you are pushing the arrow into the bow with you index finger (drawing hand). This causes some issues as far as I have experienced, because it changes dynamic spine of the arrow. If you can hold the arrow on the bow just lightly pressing without introducing any bend, it will improve. If there is correctly performed khatra it works, but it has to be timed precisely - on some of your shots arrow already left the bow before your bow hand moved. I am using thumb release for more than 6 years now and I have found out that khatra is not that beneficial in target archery, but it can be useful for flight archery or for some exhibitions like shooting through mail or so.

[@iyoo1]

thanks, Michal. yes, i have noticed how my timing is late. still figuring out to have better release. i'm trying to hold the bow as soft as i can but it's not easy with all the pressure my bow creates. thanks for the insights and help. :)

[@MILOSLAVJMP]

@@iyoo1 Oceňuji vaši pokoru a sebekritiku. Sám se tomu učím.

[@robsarchery9679]

Thanks

[@suunraze]

Thanks for the great video! The over-the-shoulder shots were VERY useful. I couldn't tell much from the angles looking straight at you. I am suffering from arrow slap as well, causing my shots to enter the gaozhen nock-right. Interestingly, it only happens with thumb draw (and not with finger draw from the same side of the bow). So I think my release might be the problem, not my khatra? Experimenting with a steadily expanding release has been helping some. Also, the stiffer the arrow I use, the less problem I have. Do you think your arrow slap was caused by poor khatra or poor release? What change would you make to your khatra to eliminate arrow slap? More lateral torque? Thanks again for the great video!

[@iyoo1]

thanks for detailed comment. assuming arrows you are using are proper length and spines, and etc., i think release is the issue. i noticed that when i use Slavic release i tend to have smoother release. maybe it's because how finger point inwards (slivic) compare to thumb points outwards (thumb release) that isolation of the string can move the end of arrow side ways - which, i think, creates a not clean release. i love to shoot all these theories in high-speed camera but i don't have fast one. one day, i love to analyze more with better video. :)

[@AwengChannel]

Nice

[@0ooTheMAXXoo0]

Are you applying torque to the bow while drawing back the arrow? That way, the release of the string also lets the bow out of the way, the tension of the string kept the khatra from happening until you release the string...

[@cameronbartlett856]

Damn that last arrow looks like a big bolt!

[@johnbland1585]

Yeah he said 1/2 " thick or so. Fkn knock down power

[@amria5725]

Nice slow mo

[@iyoo1]

thanks.

[@성이름-m3u]

In Korea, khatra was called "고자채기" or "별절". Khatra is said to be slightly different from country to country.

[@성이름-m3u]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/pl6XpmOogJaBqZIsi=sMkObuL7TzwkZkXV This is a video of archery in Korea in the 1950s.

[@성이름-m3u]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/f36YqWWjhq-pedksi=-eonRBdKp9ADPv7E This is a video clip of a Korean archery lecture.

[@iyoo1]

'고자채기' 라는 말은 들어 봤는데 '별절' 은 처음 들어 봅니다. 새로운 정보 감사합니다. :)

[@성이름-m3u]

@@iyoo1 아 한국분이셨나보네요. 별절은 고자채기를 포함하는 개념인데 고자채기와 함께 뒷손을 펴는 동장 모두를 포함하는 사법을 별절이라고 부른다고 합니다.

[@iyoo1]

@@성이름-m3u 오~ 그렇군요. '별절' 기억하겠습니다. :)

[@MILOSLAVJMP]

Díky za vaše video pomohlo mi v diskusi u mého videa.

[@iyoo1]

wish i understand what you commented here. ^_^;;

[@paradox_1729]

Do you always shoot with the fletching inside? inside as in one fletching facing your body instead of outside?

[@iyoo1]

i use feather so inside and outside doesn't really matter. if i'm using plastic vanes i put odd vane outside. :)

[@ErenhillVlcipatron]

nice

[@robsarchery9679]

Nice one

[@NeoMororo]

Im using now a bamboo arrows 32 inch , but what arrow weight , would you advise me for a 45 pound kaya bow ? 🙏 thank you .

[@iyoo1]

that's is depends on your preference. if you are like me, use heavy arrows (10 gpp and over). it slows down the arrow speed so it can help you to actually see arrow's trajectory. if you prefer fast arrow speed you can use lower weight so acheive that. :)

[@TheDave570]

It seems as though your Khatra is late in almost all incidents. The movement of your bow hand seems to be late.. this is just a observation. It seems that your bow hand should move the same time as you release the string, since you cannot know the speed of the string.

[@iyoo1]

thank you. i'll focus on that. it's tricky technique. ^_^;;

[@Discover4191]

영상 잘 보고있습니다^^

[@iyoo1]

고맙습니다. :)

[@ThomasJamesCiesielski]

Been practicing kathra for a year now. I can't do it right. Every time i do it i miss target by a foot or even more...i either do it too fast or too slow idk. It's pretty hard.

[@iyoo1]

@thomas damascus yes, i know. i'm still making mistakes, sometimes. lower poundage bows are easier to control and to perform khatra with. over 50#, i still pay attention as i shoot. war bow, a long way to go. lol. one thing helped me was to change pressure on your palm for the bow hand. as you pull, try to put pressure to the bottom (root) of the thumb and let the bow swing either out or to the side depending on your preference. hope that makes some difference. :)

[@ThomasJamesCiesielski]

@@iyoo1 ohhh so less pressure or grip on a handle should make it bounce to a side more natural? I will try that! I was watching armin from malta archery and trying his way of doing it which is controlled kathra but.... No success. Timing needs to be perfect every shot which is near impossible in my case. Thank You for the tip!!!

[@iyoo1]

@@ThomasJamesCiesielski nice. i watch his videos, too. and yes, it's a lot harder than it's being said, especially with fast bows. keep it up :)

[@rpgiom1863]

I used to have the same feeling of missing when i used torque. However seeing myself in slow mo, i realised that with bad form and no torque, i had adjusted my aim to shoot diagonally. Try torque / khatra and adjust your aim to where the arrows land.

[@ThomasJamesCiesielski]

@rpgiom1863 I finally do kathra now hah but i don't do side one because it still feels unnatural to me so i do down kathra. I press on grip forward with upper part of hand and pull tight with bottom two fingers and as soon as i release the arrow bow drops for me on its own. I also hold the bow at 45 degrees and my shooting is pretty good. Can't believe it took me so long to learn how to do it properly 🤣 But yea, i still can't do side torque kathra it feels wrong to me.

[@archeryboras5921]

Good video.

[@iyoo1]

thank you.

[@Lost_Hwasal]

Im not an expert and i dont know what your skill level is, but i would think that it is difficult to have effective khatra with a grip that is loose like that. Also, it seems like your release is affecting the arrow slap. I think it would be interesting if you retried this experiment with 4 additional years of experience under your belt.

[@Dhimas_Rajavy]

what camera did you use?

[@iyoo1]

i use Yi 4k Plus. shot it 240fps in 720p and slowed down to 2%. personally i want more frame rates. ^0^;

[@Dhimas_Rajavy]

@@iyoo1 aahh... I feel you. lol. I want to have more frame rates too.

[@King2Kong]

Where did you get that shooting style?

[@DogsaladSalad]

the thrift store

[@jake4194]

Target

[@MegaAdeny]

What the heck? When I ordered my Segye, they refused to make one over 55 pounds!

[@iyoo1]

segye bow stacks a lot at the end. i got 55# but it was a bit heavier than usual. it pulls up to 70# if you pull it over 31".

[@Chiefshadow4]

Also with arrow slap- too stiff a spine.

[@iyoo1]

stiff spine is actually preferred in Asiatic archery. a small difference compare to Mediterranean shooting.

[@adamadamski4361]

2 much draw weight! left hand not strong enough 4 propper Khatra

[@iyoo1]

thank you :)

[@twintwo1429]

The arrows leave the string before khatra motion, therefore no effect. If you were moving the bow before arrows released, you would have very bad accuracy.

[@сергейЛавров-у9э]

Ужас какой-то ... А что он показывает? Или это засняли обучение новичка?