KILLZONE: The Surprisingly Subversive Anti-War Saga | A Gaming Retrospective (Part 2 of 2)

Steven continues his deep dive into the sci-fi space shooter series, KILLZONE: to see if - besides it's technical achievements, and infamous "Halo Killer" label - these games have anything more to them than simply being "those games with the space-[20th Century German Political Movement]s"?
PART 1: • KILLZONE: The Surprisi...
00:00:00​ Watch Part 1
00:00:38​ Part VII - Case Study: KILLZONE 3
00:44:51​ Part VIII - "Helghast Fascism" Analysis of Ideology
01:10:36​ Part IX - Case Study: KILLZONE Mercenary
01:33:18​ Part X - Case Study: KILLZONE Shadow Fall
02:19:03​ Part XI - "Promise of Peace" The Future of Killzone
02:29:58​ Awards
02:33:31​ Outro and Patron thanks
Twitter: / redscotgaming
Patreon: / redscotgaming
RSGWiki: redscotgaming.wikia.com/wiki/R...

[@Robloxman01]

Something that I always found confusing about Killzone is that it sells Helghan as this barely hospitable planet where everything from the wildlife to the air itself is trying to kill you, and it took the Helghast at least 3 generations, probably more given the implied mortality rate, to begin adapting to this planet to the point where it wasn't a struggle just to survive. But the ISA, with no special equipment to survive the planet's conditions, doesn't have any problems operating on the surface. They don't need environment suits or anything like that, and it's never brought up as a plot point or like... a mission where you have to secure supplies so that your troops can still breathe.

[@NoExplosionsMcgee]

I glad I'm not the only one who noticed that continuity error(or an unintentional oopsie on GG's part). I always did find that rather odd.

[@jakew7982]

It was said in the previous video that despite the air becoming breathable on Helghan, the mask wearing is more of a cultural or classist thing.

[@3adgamd3r]

@@jakew7982 you’re right, it’s breathable to the Helghast, not to everyone else, that’s why it’s a plot hole They adapted to the environmental conditions and no longer needed the masks, but still wore them for cultural reasons However Vektans shouldn’t have this adaptation, so it’s still a plot hole, but one I’d overlook as the overall story saves it imo

[@epiktom5768]

@@3adgamd3r I thought it was they terraformed it as well to make it more hospitable as well as natural adaptation.

[@dalemcdenver7816]

I assume it's because the atmosphere isn't immediately or short-term lethal but makes you sick over a longer period of time, like when you are actually living your life on that planet. Otherwise they wouldn't have made it long enough after their exodus to adapt *and* have a population big enough to wage this huge war in that timespan between exodus to events of the game. Of course, that doesn't mean there won't be health complications in the long-term for the ISA soldiers even under still relatively short exposure (like cancer) which would actually add a layer to the game when we think how often soldiers don't get all the needed equipment or information to adequately protect themselves from environmental dangers, (experimental) medication or their own weapon systems that are only a real health concern en masse after their expected discharge.

[@Splash43]

god damn, Boris truly was the real hero of Killzone and we need a game focused about him

[@slkjvlkfsvnlsdfhgdght5447]

we need more characters like him to humanize the helghans

[@Splash43]

@@slkjvlkfsvnlsdfhgdght5447 oh hell yea, id like to see them as not just blood thirsty murderers but have some actual depth, shame we won't now the devs are hard at work on Horizon

[@slkjvlkfsvnlsdfhgdght5447]

​@@Splash43 it's more specific than that, we need to see the *soldiers* not just as blood thirsty murderers. we already have some sympathetic civilians, but boris is the only sympathetic soldier

[@CoolSs]

I love that and we be on the hellgas side

[@CaptainPilipinas]

scot was it even them? (01:25:10) either it would be the helghan troops during mission 04 who did it so. [shrugged] the vektan troops weren't the Only faction to be in that embassy building after all.

[@davidsolomie162]

If they made one last installment in this series called "Kin", with the story focused on escaping the rule of the UCN, that would be one Hell of a poetic end to both the idea behind the series as well as its universe.

[@navilluscire2567]

And horribly predictable, the whole point of the series is that there's always going to be pointless conflicts between peoples pitied against eachother for shortlived gains at the cost of longterm prosperity. That's partly what makes the series compelling there's NO third party BIG BAD to fight against where both sides of an ongoing war have to unite against...and that's refreshing then and especially now were alot of sci-fi and fantasy (and frankly alot of other genres..) rely WAY too much on that arbitrary, overrated trope. (not saying it's bad but it's becom far too predictable as a path of narrative advancement) I think the fact there's no convenient greater enemy to unit both sides, Vektans and Helghans (not helghast) is the setting's strongest aspect and what makes it stand out among so many other shooters, *there is no easy solution (as in a convenient outside enemy that goes "MuHaha, I am the real cosmic villain, certainly not human tragedy or injustice or greed"!)* to this now (as of the last entry) generational tensions and hostility.

[@darthjekyll3648]

@@navilluscire2567 killzone 5:Kindred

[@darthjekyll3648]

@@navilluscire2567 @ExeErdna two things, pass it on. 1) Natko is Maya "Echo" Visari father. 2) the person to bring the two sides together, and get rid of earth out of the Alpha centuries system is the half breed actor.

[@alphamarine4784]

I found it ironic that at the end of Killzone 3, Rico and Sev killed billions of helgans, but not the ONE guy they tried to kill after they figure out his whole plan. They must have felt like shit if they ever learn that stal was alive.

[@Guciom]

@Sebastian Orthwaller Whoe there buddy, that's wrong think you are talking there! Get ready to be sent to diversity training.

[@TheFlankFrustrater]

@Sebastian Orthwaller Why democrats specifically?

[@Demicleas]

@@TheFlankFrustrater beacuse democracy=democrats.

[@cmdrfokker]

@Sebastian Orthwaller God, if only. You'd never post KZbin comments again.

[@jgroth3906]

@Sebastian Orthwaller I assume, based on your obvious stupidity, that you're a Republican. In which case, hi pot meet kettle.

[@yourpalsammy9773]

Maybe Killzone 3 was meant to be a parody of the action shooter genre up until the last somber moments after the victory celebration. The moments when you realize you just genocided an entire planet and that you aren't heroes.

[@kinghoodofmousekind2906]

Could be true...like a sort of playable propaganda movie.

[@stephenfornadel7937]

I can see that but we'll never know for sure

[@Gruntvc]

I like to pretend everything that happened after Killzone 2 is not canon. It ended with the remnants of the ISA invasion forces being surrounded by extremely pissed off Helghast. Killzone Mercenary was a good game though.

[@underscore_535]

@Sebastian Orthwaller I think that is somewhat disingenuous, in that it seems it is more of an "haha we survived ... oh shit" moment than an "YEAH WE DID IT WE WIPED OUT AN ENTIRE CIVILIZATION" moment. A discordant brass duet plays when they realize that they took it too far, it's a little on the nose that genocide is kinda unjustifiable. In SF, Rico and Sev are notably absent, probably in-hiding, left for dead in space, or possibly having been extra-judicially killed; generally they aren't seen in a good light as the few references denote them as criminals.

[@robertharris6092]

Sounds like the credits themes for the Jeff van dyke total war games.

[@QueenSydon]

I always thought it was so stupid to have Rico still carrying his ISA weapon during the undercover moments. Made everyone look like a fool who was in on it.

[@altechelghanforever9906]

Killzone 3's campaign suffered from "shooter guy" syndrome. A deadly pandemic in all FPS games.

[@Night-Lord]

To be fair they might've just assumed he just picked it up. In theory it shouldn't be a huge red flag to just have the enemies gun. I'm not like a Killzone fan so someone else will have to fill me in on whether or not the Helghast are that strict.

[@altechelghanforever9906]

@@Night-Lord If that's the case then howcome we didn't see any Helghast carry ISA weapons? Not to mention they were infiltrating Stahl Arms, a fucking weapons facility. The security should've immediately told them to dispose of that LMG because they probably have an entire warehouse of StA-3s.

[@Night-Lord]

@@altechelghanforever9906 holy fuck dude I literally said I didn’t play the games! You came at me way too hard and fast. Next time a simple “yeah they probably are” will suffice man

[@CaptainPilipinas]

@@Night-Lord true. Gameplay limitation rules Aside (even if in the killzone [Flower] franchise you can pick all non-personal guns from fallen people's hands), realistically it's not like both ISA and HGH-made weapons are exclusively tied to their own.

[@grandadmiralzaarin4962]

"Colonel Radec, what are their subscriber numbers? I want today to be a day of rejoicing for the Killzone fans." Visari seeing a part 2 to RedScotGaming's Killzone series. "The viewers have been delighted...the Review performed...adequately." Radec greenlighting RedScotGaming

[@thenemesis1995]

Dude this comment needs more love😃😄😄😄

[@grandadmiralzaarin4962]

@Sebastian Orthwaller and of course you're a qualified expert on the subject with the certifications to prove it...

[@knightofberenike9633]

@@grandadmiralzaarin4962 His name is Sebastian bro, clearly he’s a political science teacher. Definitely.

[@cmdrfokker]

@Sebastian Orthwaller Not all right wingers. Just people like you.

[@Ropetrick6]

@Sebastian Orthwaller If you see Nazis being killed, and say that we're calling all right-wingers Nazis, that implies one of two things about either you or the world, and neither makes you a good guy.

[@Robosapien_]

Oh boy, this came out right when Part 1 was recommended to me! Who needs sleep I got another Killzone documentary.

[@Sebastian-zv1sb]

Same

[@HamsterPi]

"I don't mean to die fightin' beside a _merc._ " "What about side by side with a _friend?_ " " *Piss.* " Omg this murdered me This whole double retrospective was a tour de force. Somehow, you talked for five hours straight about a handful of shoot-the-bad-man games and there wasn't a single moment of wasted time. All killer, no filler. From perspective to political discussion, this whole thing was knowledgeable and insightful. You've honestly helped provide me a bit of a better understanding of fascism, it's symptoms and it's many problems, beyond the simple 'bash fash' mentality I had prior. There's a lot to all of this though and I still have plenty to learn. Not a single joke in the video bombed, the little homemade memes you scattered about were great and I'm very interested in playing Killzone 2 again. Thank you for this and please continue to do your best.

[@randjan8592]

"bash fash" just sounds too funny...

[@HamsterPi]

@@randjan8592 lol

[@theycallmedoorway9913]

I highly recommend Monsieur Z's video 'Understanding Fascism' for those that don't understand it (but think they do).

[@user-qs8kh5dn5w]

completly agree

[@Abravado]

That's because he comes from the badlands north of the M25, and unlike us southerners they over generations have had their genome become very different from ours in other to survive. They also learnt not to waste any resources including KZbin videos and jokes.

[@mortman200]

Stahl is fucking hilarious thanks to McDowell's performance but I actually really like Orlock. He's an arrogant and bombastic commander but he's ultimately not a vindictive psychopath and his goals are more for Helghast independence through deterrence than through actively using war crime weapons on civilians. I imagine the only reason he signed off on the false flag nuking of Pyrrhus in Killzone 2 is because the city had been evacuated of noncombatants in preparation for the ISA siege.

[@ExeErdna]

ISA got baited it's like they knew Rico was gonna be there

[@c0ya1]

@@ExeErdna they got skunked hard.

[@antonioluna8658]

The guy said that the bomb killed also their citizens

[@sirmanmcdude508]

When the two sides hate each other so much that the only time they cooperate is to build a giant fuck-off wall so they don't have to look at each other... That's a mood I can get behind

[@CaptainPilipinas]

[If only they have met an Spherical [Agent] of the [O]....then, a peaceful Golden Age. (Until the main real War within the main [Flower Game(s)] verses eventually Attacks that now mostly united Humanity (UCN as a whole)).]

[@jaushuagrahamthefloridaman1124]

I have a new political ideology....

[@theultimatecapitalist2252]

@@CaptainPilipinas What do you mean by “Flower Game(s)” Verse?

[@CaptainPilipinas]

@@theultimatecapitalist2252 hrm. remembering this was an old one from back then?

[@DeviIotte]

@@theultimatecapitalist2252 I think his incoherent rambling is about Destiny. Flower game is something the light and dark played in that in game universe. I think it, the poster was trying to get at a third faction, ala Lambent from GoW, or what not.

[@panzershock441]

The greatest tragedy of killzone is not being able to romance and marry Echo.

[@emile1365]

Where's my Helgan hybrid gf bros?

[@BobExcalibur]

@@emile1365 Waiting for you in the chemotherapy ward.

[@altechelghanforever9906]

@@BobExcalibur When was the last time a Helghast had cancer? Sounds like ISA propaganda. Also does anyone have a wig? My hair is falling off me head.

[@altechelghanforever9906]

I just wanna say Echo has the kissiest lips ever. Like damn, Helghan genetics are something else, even if she's half breed.

[@BobExcalibur]

@@altechelghanforever9906 Statistically speaking most Helghast seem unattractive to ethnic outsiders. If there had been more interbreeding between them the events of Shadowfall likely wouldn't have happened. You get more sex tourism to Thailand than you do Tasmania. Revealed preference.

[@jamesmortimer4016]

Boris just wants TO TALK TO YOU aabout the ethics of being a soldier

[@randjan8592]

PISS

[@CaptainPilipinas]

Why most Simplicity people *craves* to be Helghan views there again?.... [rhetorically warns]

[@sunsetman22]

'luv me Helgan 'luv me machine gun 'ate Vektans (not raycis, just don't loik 'em) 'ate Mercs

[@Gat720Dua]

There's also a possibility of a reboot, start fresh, rework on things that didn't like the writing of some characters and keeping consistency with tone and mechanics and maybe give us a Helghan campaign for once.

[@navilluscire2567]

I don't know about a Helghan campaign, that is playing as the Helghast faction in control of most of the planet's population. I don't think anyone wants to paint a blatalny fascist regime as remotely sympathetic. Now a story about some of the civilians and even military personnel that have to go along on the surface with their current regime or else face consequences while maybe secretly trying to undermine Helghast government would be interesting. (remember not ever Helghan likes nor agrees with the Helghast/facist regime) Again I'd avoid painting a fascist government even in a fictional sci-fi setting in a favorable light. Yeah sure it's certainly understandable how things became the way the are and how the sort if justified angry towards the wrongs committed in the past is again understandable but I think a little self-awareness goes a long way as well as nuance. (the Helghan corporations own shady business in the lore leading up to the first extra-solar war that's strangely overlooked by even this KZbinr)

[@ExeErdna]

@@navilluscire2567 But Helghast wasn't anywhere near fascist until the ISA came and kicked them off their own planet of Vekta and them called themselves "Vektans", then put them on the hell scape that Halghan which was only supposed to be for mining and industry while they wanted to make Vekta a nice home. So a "helghast" campign during that first invasion would be valid since we know the ISA are the real villains here. The Helghast just look like it

[@truecaliber1995]

@@ExeErdna We should probably make the distinction between "villain" and "aggressor" right now, because most, if not all, conflicts aren't purely black and white. The Helghast still commit morally questionable acts, just as the Vektan ISA branch, and the UCN had done before the beginning of the first Extra Solar War. Hell, on a completely separate note, if you want to talk about allegories to real-world history, these two Extra Solar Wars almost mirror that of The Great War, and the brutal Treaty of Versailles that preceded WW2. The Helghan Empire is still a fascist, ultranationalist, and totalitarian/authoritarian regime lead by a fanatic dictatorship, ideologies and values reflected within its military branches. They're not "good", per se. However, admittedly, this is the position Helghan found itself in; they didn't choose the hand they'd been dealt. At least, not entirely, but individual responsibility doesn't necessarily excuse Vekta's ISA branch. Especially taking into account, yes, ISA law enforcement's harsh crackdowns on native Vektan "Helghan Admin" supporters pre-Exodus. There exists plenty of skeletons in our "heroes'" closet. While the other side may represent a more liberal democratic society, considering Vektans' preconceived notions of how Helghans look and act, it's as if Vekta was deliberately transformed into a psuedo-xenophobic society following the first Extra Solar War, almost as a strategic play by the UCN to dissuade the now defunct Helghan Administration, as well as future UCN colonies, from declaring independence or challenging UCN authority in any capacity. "Obey us or be cast out, abandoned, forgotten, and/or vilified." Now, of course, after the discovery of petrusite on Helghan, the UCN developed a vested interest in establishing and maintaining diplomatic ties, but the narrative stayed the same. Had diplomacy broken down, which it did, between them and this newly sprouted empire of self-proclaimed "super humans", the latter organization refusing reintegration, the UCN probably would've started a resource war under false pretenses anyway. With all this fictional historical context in mind, the reason many Killzone fans have sympathy for the Helghast is the same reason the player, in the shoes of an average Vektan ISA trooper, begins questioning whether or not you're on the "right" side; Killzone, before its 3rd installment, didn't really ask us to pick a side. This franchise is one of the rare instances, bearing in mind that Killzone 3 messed this up, where an FPS allowed for enough moral ambiguity, as well as allowing players the freedom of independent thought, that you _could_ make a Killzone game through perspective of an average Helghast soldier, or an elite Helghast trooper assigned to a special-forces division, and make it work. Guerilla just has to keep themselves from forcing a narrative down the player's throat, like "Helghast = 'Good' because we said so", such as what Naughty Dog did with The Last of Us: Part 2's narrative. Have enough confidence in your audience to let them draw their own conclusions, to let them think about what it is they're doing and why. _That's_ how you make a campaign through the perspective of a notorious faction, fictional or otherwise. Does this come with its own risks? Of course. There's definitely a debate to be had about whether or not this approach could be marketable, and I have no doubt games media, hungry for anything juicy, would manufacture drama, probably accuse Guerrilla of harboring nazi sympathizers, etc. Ultimately, though, it's up to Guerrilla Games whether or not they take that risk. I don't think they will, personally, having perused their newly created, safe, by-the-books open world franchise "Horizon", but a man can dream.

[@darthjekyll3648]

@@truecaliber1995 @ExeErdna two things, pass it on. 1) Natko is Maya "Echo" Visari father. 2) the person to bring the two sides together, and get rid of earth out of the Alpha centuries system is the half breed actor.

[@364dragonrider]

Imagine something like empire at war but killzone.

[@robertharris6092]

Imagine empire at war. But made today. And 64x.

[@loltwest9423]

Yes please.

[@baalhighpriestsaban2106]

Hmmmm..... 2021 Empire at War, yes please.

[@WASDLeftClick]

I could see classic Command & Conquer mechanics working well with Killzone.

[@morganf7310]

yeah just make space combat homeworld for the better looking space combat.

[@maximvsdread1610]

USN Soldier#1: Hans... are we the baddies? USN Soldier#2: shrugs :/

[@90skidcultist]

Also USN Soldier#2: " Come to think of it... well... We didn`t "reeducate" our own people and used them as slave labor. We also didn`t nuke our capital, & a large part of our army. We also didn`t try to destroy Earth, which would have killed over 20 billion people. We were very "kind" enough to let the Helgast get half their war goal, by settling half of Vekta. This understandably pissed off many ISA worlds. Especially the Vektans that did most of the fighting & took most of the loses. They felt betrayed & we could have another rebellious colony on our hands now. Half of Vekta is already lost, as its no longer a part of the ISA anymore. So less resources from that world now..." ISA Vektan Soldier: "We feel betrayed!!" >:( USN Soldier#2: "Yeah, yeah, I said that. You guys are kind of the same people, genetically. ...Maybe you guys can have a merger of cultu---" ISA Vektan Soldier: "Literally impossible. Not gonna happen! Have you even heard of the Helghast!!?? They don`t even see themselves as human anymore!! We had to build a wall over OUR OWN PLANET to stop us from killing each other again! It`s the only thing we ever cooperated on!" USN Soldier#1: "HEY! Your people blew up the surface of an entire world! Billions died! It was the worst event in all of human history! You`re lucky you even have Vekta to call home!" ISA Vektan Soldier: "I guess we should have just let Stahl use the bomb then. Or hope he never uses it..." USN Soilder#2: "If it makes you feel better, I`m on your side...!" ISA Vektan Soldier: "GO TO HEL--, oh! Well, thanks I guess..."

[@mlam5758]

Pyrrhus Nikomedes They evacuated the capital tho. And USN literally killed a planet and committed mass genocide

[@90skidcultist]

@@mlam5758 After the Helghast tried to do the same to Earth. Did you play the game!? They had to destroy the weapon, they didn`t do it because they wanted to commit genocide. They did it to defeat Jorhan Stalh, to end the war that they started, & to make sure Jorhan can`t ever use it again. What happen to Helghan was 100% Stahl`s fault! The Helghast are savages. Jorhan even tried to start a 3rd war during Shadow Fall. No one will miss the Helghast when their gone. The ISA & Vektan even let the Helghast settled Vekta. They tried everything to make amends. Giving up half the planet that now rightfully belongs to the Vektans, is very democratic & Liberal. The Helghast would never do the same for them. Yes, I said it. Vekta belongs to Vektans, Earth, & ISA colonies. Sorry, friend. The Helghast lost Vekta a long time ago, & falled to take it twice. Seems familiar, no? They can`t beat Vekta by itself, let along the whole ISA. They tried to foolish attack the very powerful UCN itself, by destroying Earth. It is amazing how they didn`t whipped them all out at this point. It isn`t the Helghast planet anymore than USA belongs to the UK. Or Vietnam belongs to France or China. Btw, they were an Earth colony & turned their backs from them. The Helghast were traitors since day one. This Helghast love is a little worrisome.

[@agentc7020]

@@90skidcultist I mean, they did however repress them decades ago basically forcing the original colonizers to leave just because earth couldn’t compete, the helghast are fucked up but guess who fucked them over in the first place? Just one example of a country’s greed creating problems down the line, this comment shouldn’t justify helghan actions but show that Vektan actions weren’t good either.

[@agentc7020]

@@90skidcultist also the Helghast were traitors? For what? For wanting to not be treated a second class? The UCN was militarily powerful but economically the helghast were catching up, it was the fear of the UCN of being surpassed that drove them to surround the helghasts in Vekta, it’s been less than 150 years since, that’s less than the US was formed, 4 generations at max, the scars of being forced into a hell escape don’t heal easy and while yes you can blame everything on stalh, there’s helghans like echo, not every one of them were “savages” as you put it, you’re just like Rico, probably just as trigger happy, it’s not as black and white as you put it but you do you.

[@igigor646]

I loved the art direction in KZ1. Vecta had that feeling of a giant city, a big tech metropole, pretty rich, nice architecture, peaceful and almost utopic. Not the kind of city we expect to see war, not because it's impossible but because war always happen far away, "in those countries". Seeing as a child that city getting tinted by war really marked me. Also the trooper and the Sta-52 from KZ1 are the best.

[@stephenfornadel7937]

Hopefully killzone can have the master chief collection treatment (except the bad launch) for the ps5 and maybe PC since Sony is releasing their titles on PC even if they're old titles

[@nachoolo]

>and maybe PC since Sony is releasing their titles on PC even if they're old titles I hope so. Being shooters, mouse control would make them even better. Besides. Guerrilla Games has already launched the first Horizon on steam. So, of all franchise, another from the same developers wouldn't be that strange.

[@Gruntvc]

I'd buy it for Killzone 2 alone. Sony doesn't make games like that now.

[@ChairmanKam]

@@Gruntvc Was going to say, KZ2 is the one game in the series I feel an irresponsible pull towards. And this comes from a Halo fanboy!

[@dejureclaims8214]

YES! Guerrilla bringing Horizon to PC gives me hope.

[@bmaster591]

IF they would do that, I'm all in with that. Though I don't think KZ2 would work with M&K because of it's slow/laggy weapon aim. And that's something, they shouldn't change imo.

[@andreworders7305]

Hellghast aren't allowed to be nice in this series unless they're half-hellghast apparently

[@altechelghanforever9906]

Which is pretty dumb when you think about it. Killzone Shadow Fall was supposed to bring the whole "peace forever both sides are morally grey" but then continued the "shooter guy" syndrome.

[@Hellhound23691]

...BORIS

[@nedinnis6752]

Pretty much peak ludonarrative dissonance of the series that tries to tell us that Velkans and Hellghast aren't that different.

[@altechelghanforever9906]

@@nedinnis6752 It's even more a problem when they never showed that, not even in Shadow Fall where that is claimed.

[@navilluscire2567]

@@altechelghanforever9906 I mean to be fair, if peace ever really came about then...there's no more Killzone games (if the series ever comes back that is..) because well...you need someone to shoot, ideally bad guys wearing awsome looking gasmasks that have (dumb but cool!) glowing red eyes!

[@sithmakuta2579]

I really like your ending for the series. I can see it now: Killzone five: Revolution--humans and Helghast finally working together to throw off the chains of the UCN.

[@altechelghanforever9906]

That's...not gonna happen. Helghast and Vektans, despite their genetic symmetry, are at each other's throats and will be in an even greater degree now that Echo assassinated Sinclair. Vektans already look down on the average Helghast, expect some hate crimes to happen on the VSA side of Vekta.

[@j.a.pelaez6435]

@@altechelghanforever9906 they might get wrapped into a larger conflict, taking into account the situation on Gyre, heck, even you could throw aliens into the mix

[@altechelghanforever9906]

@@j.a.pelaez6435 The VSA don't even see the Helghast as human, so we have that.

[@j.a.pelaez6435]

@@altechelghanforever9906 they are humans distinction Is quite low biologically, a 3 way war of independence might be wild

[@altechelghanforever9906]

@@j.a.pelaez6435 Indeed but considering the power of the UCN it may end quickly, and not in favor of the rebels.

[@Rikaishi]

Something RedScot might have missed about Shadowfall is that the Helgans getting half of Vecta as compensation for the terracide was not necessarily just something that the Vektan government happily offered them. One of the news articles he shows implies that it was a negotiated settlement forced on the Vektans by "intergalactic law" aka Earth's government. This makes Shadow Fall's backstory fairly similar to the establishment of Israel after WWII.

[@liliththesolarexalted2206]

Honestly I think another possibility for a peaceful future for Killzone is on the Planet Gyre. A world where cooperation and coexistence is a proven fact. Have the Gyres become the main characters and working to stop Vektan and New Hellghan (and maybe even some forces from Earth) threats trying to destabilize them and start racial conflict where there is none. Have the main heroes not just be typical soldiers but something like a spaceborn version of Rainbow Six. Putting aside differences for the greater good even if sometimes they really don't like eachother.

[@medicbat01]

I legitimately sat through this whole video without realizing it was several hours long until you pointed it out to us, damn.

[@arlobrimley9566]

My problem with Killzone Shadwofall was the unintended real world analogies and implications you highlighted make Sinclair's perspective very convincing. If you were an average citizen of Vekta, you just got through a war where the Helghast were obviously the aggressors, you retaliated with your own planetary invasion where the enemies own super-weapon (and your stolen nuke which they deployed on themselves) destroyed their own planet. Afterwards, you for some reason are forced to give up half the planet they tried to take with force, resulting in violent relocation by the immigrant community as they set up their new territory sanctioned by your own government. Think of all the sacrifice the ISA had to go through for it all to be seemingly given away like that. If a Helghast national killed Sinclair in a terrorist attack, it would martyr the one guy who seemed to stand up against that kind of BS and I could see it simply hardening most of the Vekta.

[@BobExcalibur]

I thought the same thing. Echo's addition at the end of the game is even more atrocious that leaving it at Lucas's death alone. As Visari's death had already adequately demonstrated, assassinating a charismatic political figure in a media environment you don't control is only going to galvanise the people that share his beliefs and further radicalise them. This isn't a George Rockwell situation; Echo ended the series with a guaranteed genocide of her people. Yass queen slay.

[@sword4005]

@@BobExcalibur the cycle repeats endlessly, humanity never learns from history and always repeats it last mistakes again and again

[@BobExcalibur]

@@sword4005 It'd be far too dark for a mainstream big budget game, but imagine if Sinclair put it to you like: "You ever heard of the Neanderthals, Kellan? Did humanity tolerate them, integrate to live side by side as equals? Did we have cycles of war and carnage with them for millennia, or did we have something better? The existence that will follow what must be done will be better. We're living proof." Considering Sinclair's demographic he doesn't appear to have a high level of Neanderthal genetic admixture, so it would have an extra layer of heinous irony.

[@MrAsaqe]

Welll technically the Vektans failed, so they have to take it as a term for peace or ISA makes the deals on their behalf

[@MrAsaqe]

@@BobExcalibur And the greatest irony was Rockwell's murder was from his own kind.

[@igigor646]

"-What about side by side with a friend? Boris: *PISS* "

[@chumpyman]

I'd love you to do a resistance video in the same way as killzone. It has almost the same patch, a sony exclusice, 3 main games, 1 psp game and 1 ps vita game. After that, nothing else from sony

[@c.l.8213]

At this point in the series I really wanna know what they put in Vektan water. These guys are incredibly sturdy.

[@altechelghanforever9906]

Which is dumb, because the Helghast should be even more sturdy since y'know *THEIR PLANET HAS EXTREMELY HIGH GRAVITY!!*

[@slkjvlkfsvnlsdfhgdght5447]

@@altechelghanforever9906 actually they shouldn't be, a hundred years is not nearly enough for any beneficial mutations. even minor beneficial mutations (in humans) take about 8,000-20,000 years to manifest

[@altechelghanforever9906]

@@slkjvlkfsvnlsdfhgdght5447 True, but then all the Helghan refugees shouldn't have survived since they couldn't adapt fast enough.

[@slkjvlkfsvnlsdfhgdght5447]

@@altechelghanforever9906 not necessarily: humans *can* live on hleghan, it's just very hard. however, with enough air filtration and radiation shielding, there's no reason why they shouldn't survive. remember that the first generation survived

[@altechelghanforever9906]

@@slkjvlkfsvnlsdfhgdght5447 True, I forget how resilient humans are.

[@jacc1854]

Your humour and ability to create inside jokes for the length of both parts of this video has me in actual fucking awe.

[@JKR9488]

A game with Vekta and Helghan fighting against earth oppressors would be good

[@CaptainPilipinas]

no defense against our homeworld (damning corrupt though. worser 'UEG/UNSC' here in this killzone [Flower]) and the inner(?) UCN colonies there other than the Helghan petrusite. (though I would not be surprised if the homeworld also has upgraded their capabilities to still be staying the top compared to the other majority of the UCN territories secretly after the emergence of this useless ES war: knowing about weaponized petrusite (including the mixture of nuclear weapons and planet Helghan's exotic source), true FTL capabilities finally discovered to even further the fleet from that Sol System, etc. IF guerrilla continued this anyways. you know, buffing and more Lore back on the capital of the current UCN and what they have been doing outside of the involvement of the Vektan-Helghan struggle).

[@darthjekyll3648]

@@CaptainPilipinas Kilzone 5: Kindred

[@darthjekyll3648]

@@CaptainPilipinas Kilzone 5: Kindred

[@CaptainPilipinas]

or KZ....05-08 or something. description: the breakaway colonies try to replace the current structure and ways of the UCN/UCA. in a further Timeline, with (slowly dwindling as well) or without All helghan presence still.

[@ChairmanKam]

1:35:30 I love how you use Rico as a verb.

[@Godzilla-mq5zv]

Graduate to making full movies already. But jokes aside, I know this'll be a fun watch.

[@Godzilla-mq5zv]

Take a chill pill brah. Only thing pushing propaganda here are the fictional characters.

[@doomguy1167]

@Sebastian Orthwaller of?

[@comradeshadles4967]

Imagine this setting by way of something like Star Wars: Empire at War. Man I had a lot of fond memories of the multi-player

[@skorgezagreat2462]

What about the Dawn of War style? That could be super cool

[@comradeshadles4967]

@@skorgezagreat2462 either would be great, just sad to see Killzone go, I loved 2 and 3

[@skorgezagreat2462]

@@comradeshadles4967 this video is my first exposure to Killzone, I’ve played Xbox and PC all my life and I only had a PS3 that I played Gran Tourismo and Medal of Honor Airborne, I just now learned this game exists and I wish I could’ve experienced it, not to get all console wars on you, but I was that person for the longest while, then I grew up...obviously I was in middle school so naturally I would call the Xbox the greatest thing ever and the PlayStation the Gaystation.

[@comradeshadles4967]

@@skorgezagreat2462 I only had a PlayStation for a few years because someone was getting rid of it, I took it for Bloodborne and Killzone. Still have an Xbox and PC but I will always remember playing war zone as the Helghast

[@skorgezagreat2462]

@@comradeshadles4967 I’m a huge fan of the Death Korps of Krieg so I’d definitely agree that the Helghast are fucking amazing!

[@zapdragon23]

took me a minute to realize youtube wasn't trying to get me to rewatch part 1 again

[@amadeusasimov1364]

Long live Helghan. Thanks for bringing us on this journey through the beloved world of Killzone.

[@edchampion3720]

I loved seeing the inner working of the Helghast government. I wish we got more of that tbh I think both sides of the civil war are correct.

[@ALV694]

Wait which civil war???

[@edchampion3720]

@@ALV694 Stahl vs Orlock

[@ALV694]

@@edchampion3720 well stahl crippled the navy with his stunt, instead he should have just killed orlock very quickly and then ask for volunteers for his attack on earth, but he wanted to gloat about how powerful his ship is.

[@BobExcalibur]

Its great to see Mercenary getting a little greater discussion than it normally receives. To me the most impressive part of the game is the replayability. Each campaign level has three gameplay variants to play that encourages the player to try different loadouts and approaches. If you ask me its the best way of wringing every last drop of gameplay out of linear action games without just stunting the player directly into multiplayer. On that subject I love how the character unlocks persist between multiplayer, botzone and the campaign, letting the player have continuity of approach between the two. Its such a good idea that its very disappointing Call Of Duty didn't try stealing it. Some of the killstreak abilities and unlockable weapons are really fun to use, and on the higher difficulty they're basically mandatory for surviving the tougher combat chokepoints. Its a game I go back to every two years and get refreshed by just how robustly executed it was. It really should have been the PS4 launch title with Shadowfall getting shunted onto the Vita. It might have saved the series.

[@jonathonchabluk5070]

Great retrospective. I always thought Killzone was criminally under-rated, and hope that one day Guerrilla goes back to the series that made them. Subscribed, can’t wait to see more of your content!

[@funwithforkz]

I was not expecting to watch two multi-hour long videos on a video game series I’ve never played and had no prior interest in... but here we are. Terrific work.

[@andreworders7305]

KZ3: Trying to fix something that wasn't broken

[@plaguedoctorjamespainshe6009]

But in a lot of people's mind they KZ 2 was a very failed game Them comes the studio interference

[@the1grove]

Can I just say I loved Stahl, he made me laugh every time with his sarcastic replies.

[@AbandonedVoid]

"oh, of course, he's a Libertarian" best joke in the series

[@TheSlnistro]

The best killzone era is Visari in power. Give us ''Killzone Hellghast'', a game where you play as a Helghast soldier during the ISA invasion. Going through helghan pre invasion with actual cities and people finally gives that perspective. Give us normal soldiers evacuating people from the cities while ISA come in guns blazing. Not trying to sound all make helghasts look nice. Show us the bad apples as well. Show us the weird ass culture and people venerating Visari. Give us the brutality of their system first hand. Give us some Radec interaction showing us his absolute mad fan loyalty to visari. With brutality that makes us question their methods. Idk i think going forward its going to stray farther from what made it special in the first place.

[@darthjekyll3648]

down with the ISA

[@Hippo_Hegemony]

@@darthjekyll3648 HELGHAN BELONGS TO HELGHAST

[@nix8666]

When you went to define Socialism, I held my breath because I was fully ready to hear "Socialism is when everyone makes the same amount of money" and thank *god* that didn't happen. I'm loving the intersection of gaming and Leftist review, thanks for making these amazing vids!!

[@tylerstronk]

2:04:40 damn they really need to expand on their humanity more rather than only painting them as the enemy and nothing but that.

[@michaelclarke3485]

I needed the Shadow fall lore explanation of the opening. I always presumed it was a quick handover and a silly reason for hostilities but knowing it was over the course of a decade and the wall being a joint venture makes far more sense. I'm surprised I missed that in the lore as I constantly find myself going back to the wikis and such.

[@gavinlgaming7418]

I must simply say this now, after watching part one and especially the intro of part two it has really highlighted the idea of how much RedScot looks so much alike to Tommyinnit, like it's way too uncanny with only the difference of Scot having a more deeper voice and a redder face

[@MegaBlacksocks]

I thank you for all the hard work you put into these videos on Killzone. It's my favorite shooter series and I think you should send these videos to Playstation to make them consider bringing back KillZone since it has a decent enough size fanbase. Can't wait for the next video!

[@GmanZer0]

If they ever did another killzone, I hope it's a prequel. To show it through the eyes of the helghast, where they go from a exiled people living on a uninhabitable mining planet to rebelling against the ISA for what they did to them. Maybe they could bring back hakha as the main protagonist, showing him rising in the ranks. Also show how they adapted authoritarianism for helghan. But having it as a main focus, where people are telling hakha "it was for their survival" and also showing horrible effects of authoritarianism first hand through hakha's eyes. Ultimately ending with hakha inevitable turn from the helghan empire.

[@lucascalado7530]

Scot, thank you so much for practically writing the Killzone Bible. Your incredible dedication and research on the series has provided longtime fans of the series a unique retrospective and inspired me to go play the games yet another time. Godspeed and keep up the good work!

[@CoreyStudios2000]

If you truly wish to learn about Fascism as an ideology, then I would recommend you read The Doctrine of Fascism by Giovanni Gentile, the father of Fascism, and Benito Mussolini. Also, Fascism has many interpretations such as National Socialism, Falangism, Strasserism, Classical Fascism (Italian Fascism), Clerical Fascism, and, the latest addition, Ecofascism. Economically speaking, Fascism rejects both capitalism and communism in favor of either National Syndicalism or Corporatism, the latter probably being promoted by Mussolini and Hitler. And if you want to have some extra flavor, you can go to Amazon and read some of the works of Julius Evola. Even though Evola himself didn’t see himself as a fascist or was a member of the Italian Fascist Party, there are people in the post-WW II Fascist movement who use some of his works. Remember that there are also different interpretations of Communism such as Trotskyism, Posadism, Orthodox Marxism, Leninism, Stalinism, and Maoism.

[@SethAbercromby]

Went to the comments to see a reply like this. There is almost a sense of historical revisionism to it by defining fascism as this amorphous non-ideology with loose definitions almost tailor-made to be freely applied to political rivals and conservatism, unsurprisingly often penned by adherents to French socialism, a root/sister branch to Marxist ideology. Fascism and communism are more or less two faces of the same ideological structure of totalitarianism, both seek to collectivize the people into one political entity, controlled and governed entirely through a single state organ. Where they diverge is in their economic structure, which then trickles down into every state decision. In its most simple primitive terms, communism is about full economic control and the abolishment of class hierarchy through a top-down planned economy, fascism reinforces those hierarchies through rampant militarism. This is why fascist regimes also seem so industrious, as weapon manufacturers enjoy greater political standing than even military commanders, Stahl being the perfect representative of this system in action by contesting for the highest political position in a military dictatorship despite being the owner of a weapons development company. Obviously this overt focus on everything military to gain any upward mobility in the social class is at the detriment of civil industries, agriculture stagnates and humble workers like the miners in Killzone 2 are often ridiculed and looked down upon even though they are the ones who give the empire the resources to function at all.

[@jeremiahdecker4921]

I love how he just casually calls American Conservatives fascist. Calls them anti-science for not blindly trusting in a vaccine for a disease with a shockingly low mortality rate for the majority of the population.

[@jeremiahdecker4921]

And then casually implying QAnon is defining of the conservative movement, and thus fascist.... as if wild conspiracy theories are just a figment of the right. It's downright frustrating that he only seems to recognize his checklist for fascism applying to the right, but misses the anti-science, pro corporate government collaboration to fear "the other as both simultaneously weak and stupid, as well as everywhere and all controlling". He even rags on Alex Jones for his "They're turning the frogs gay..." out of context when speaking about an actual study showing that chemical contamination from runnoff of waste water treatment wasn't processing estrogen from birth control out and negatively effecting amphibians downstream causing some to start acting female.

[@jeremiahdecker4921]

And then imply that conservatives aren't censored because 1 of the 6 major networks will allow some conservative opinions. Never you mind about social media deliberately censoring the right (Facebook, Instagram, KZbin demobilization, Tictoc, Twitter, Snapchat, Pinterest), and other online resources being denied ( PayPal, GoFundMe, Amazon webserver, Patrion, ect). Never you mind that almost all print media ( New York Times, Washington Post, The Week, ect) is hard left and derogatory of the right by deliberately misrepresenting positions and arguments. Obviously, the right is not censored... It is unfounded paranoia....

[@jeremiahdecker4921]

And then to claim that the Right is the only one creating NewSpeak, when the left constantly conflates sex/gender to fit their narrative of 57 genders who can all compete in women's sports since they can't define what a woman is... The left also won't tell you when a baby is alive enough that killing it is wrong, even if that means it has to be born first and then killed at the behest of the mother, who they also cannot identify since men and women can be mother's, as well as any of the other 55 genders either one at a time or all at once. Yes, it is the right alone who can engage in NewSpeak! To believe otherwise makes you a sympathizer and therefore one of the OTHERS. Any step from the orthodoxy will see you cast out and despised, publicly shamed, and your life threatened.

[@jbark678]

This series was my intro to your channel and I'm blown away. Also, your Killzone: Kin(?) idea is super interesting.

[@jamzee_]

Can we all agree, that Echo is basically everyones edgy goth gf. Shes got the black lips, black eye lines, pale af and skinny too. Like breh, skinny goth gf, whats not to love.

[@CaptainPilipinas]

Not being Distracted by another blue alien (that means Physical appearances) and instead focus on the ends of an objective rather than going SMPL-mndd typical jakes all of a sudden?....

[@darthjekyll3648]

few things: 1) Natko is her father. 2) the actor from solar dawn should be the next playable character. 3) the other characters should return 4) The actor and Echo should hump.

[@BigPuddin]

Quit simping for a bunch of polygons, son.

[@jamzee_]

@@BigPuddin no.

[@tantalus44]

Everything about this video is great, except for the fact that the "14 Early Warning Signs of Fascism" is not a good way to analyze anything. It was written by Laurence W Britt who is NOT a philosopher or a scholar of any kind, and he made this Buzzfeed top-ten list in 2003 to specifically apply to an American context. If you want to learn about fascism, you need to actually read about fascism and not about some popular writer who was active in a time long after European fascism had ceased to exist.

[@shoelessbandit1581]

Yeah I really didn't like that part of the video especially when he started making comparisons like fox news lmao. They might say things you don't agree with but that's not fascism

[@ryanparker4996]

​@@shoelessbandit1581 he needs to be mailed a copy of "Everyone I dont like is literally Hitler: a Childs Guide to Fascism by Ladybird Books"

[@paladin3806]

European Fascism is alive and well, and is only becoming more popular. For good reason.

[@Terranallias18]

@@paladin3806 care to elaborate

[@paladin3806]

@@Terranallias18 Young ethnic Europeans are sick and tired of liberal degeneracy and being replaced by other races. There is a quiet but growing Nationalist sentiment amongst them. It's only a matter of time

[@achidikisob7759]

Sweet, Part 2 sooner than I expected!

[@maximvsdread1610]

AWW YEAH :D

[@rgb8289]

It’s a day late lol

[@SpencerBurkett]

Holy shit... IDK how the algorithm recommended you to me but this *little* 5 hour spiel was the first content I've ever seen out of you. Oh my damn, I'm very much subscribing.

[@vonPlosc]

I whole heartedly agree with your conclusion where the Killzone story should go!

[@Kna5041]

This killzone retrospective video was better history than any highschool history class.

[@tetraswift]

Honestly, my only gripe was that Mercenary didn’t do as I as expected, frankly I wanted a game where WE had the choice to choose who we fight for, the ISA or the Helghast or random people in the war who affiliate with no one.

[@BobExcalibur]

Yeah, the title "Mercenary" does indicate a certain degree of player agency. Considering Guerrilla's commitment to drawing inspiration from both historical and contemporary warfare however, I think the Cambridge team wanted to draw a parallel to real life mercenary companies like Executive Outcomes or Blackwater. The mercenaries of our world that get paid the best and are used by the most powerful militaries are under contract from Private Military Companies rather than independent operators who get to pick and choose what operation they fulfil for whatever faction at their own discretion. I think it adds to the oppressive nature of the setting where even outside the two major factions, there's no room for independence. As a cog you can only turn, in whatever war machine you find yourself in.

[@tetraswift]

@@BobExcalibur true enough to that, though I would’ve preferred an alignment system akin to a terrible example, Shadow the Hedgehog. That is the only game that actively gives any semblance of letting you do whatever for whatever side you prefer. Hell, I would’ve liked some options to just say fuck you to both the Helghast and Vektan militaries and just fuck them over for the hell of it.

[@nathannguyen2041]

I'm surprised that ISA forces had enough food rations throughout Killzone 2-3

[@davidgreen3001]

They shouldn't have had food, they shouldn't have had those vehicles and dozens of troops miraculously appear, and most important it's Helghast so they shouldn't be able to even breathe but devs hated Helghast and regretted making them the good guys.

[@crushcommando8637]

Honestly a character i wanted to see more of was Radec, like you said before he obviously came from the lower class of society yet rose to such massive importance in the war machine. It's an interesting little insight that his dialogue shows him wanting to be on the frontlines with his troops fighting the enemy in combat; reinforced by what he says to templar before their little scuffle. I believe there was a book or a log somewhere about him I remember reading either ingame or in his wiki that he actually doesn't fully agree with the genocidal tendencies and such of the high command, but he simply serves his nation out of loyalty to his people.

[@darthjekyll3648]

Read a fanfic about him

[@KaminoKatie]

@@darthjekyll3648 Do you have any good fic recommendations about Radec though?

[@darthjekyll3648]

@@KaminoKatie hounds of helghan.

[@KaminoKatie]

@@darthjekyll3648 Which fanfic site is it from?

[@plaguedoctorjamespainshe6009]

Ok i will make an helghan woman as a pin up art for my portfolio

[@altechelghanforever9906]

What's your progress on it?

[@mariano98ify]

i want to see that too, lol

[@sebastianzebrak6548]

Finished yet?? We are all waiting man cmon

[@oniemployee3437]

We're gonna need a link, bro.

[@RTDice11]

2:25:00 Always imagined the franchise ending with Vektans and Helghast realizing they're both being trapped and exploited by Earth and the UCN (seeing as they've had the power to end the conflict for centuries and KZ2 onward only happened because they wanted to play softball instead of intervening). They could unite for a final, desperate push against a common enemy, to liberate the colonies from a technologically superior foe. Edit: lmao, guess I should've kept watching to the end! But glad to know I'm not the only one who wants the franchise to end in a showdown with Earth

[@ToejamandEarl1983]

It’s a shame that the series seems to have ended with shadow fall it seems like everything that killzone had to make it unique was done away with to make the gameplay more of a call of duty style FPS rather that the slower cover FPS with real weight behind the combat that being said really loved the retrospective can’t wait to see what you do next 👍

[@FPoP1911]

Watching this in 2022, feels almost eerie.

[@5hane9ro]

As soon as I get home from work this releases. Perfect timing

[@chtisdamico2616]

By far the best retrospective done. In forever. Thank you

[@3rdForfar]

Not true because I’m not in this one ;p haha

[@Inanedata]

Honestly have only ever played Killzone 2 and kinda forgot about it since, but watched ALL of part one and two here because it's so fun to hear someone who's passionate and well spoken talk about a thing they enjoy. Your enjoyment of this series and your analysis made me pay attention throughout and even if I don't return to watch more of your videos I'm glad to have seen these two. Cheers.

[@jedgrahek1426]

I really want to thank you for this series, for showing me how rich in subtext and worldbuilding these games were. After watching up through 3, I have to say how much of a tragic lost opportunity the third game was. After the ending of 2, the whole point of which was to show the senselessness and nihilism of the entire invasion, that it was motivated by resources and capital, and that the individual soldiers who achieved their mission of getting to the palace and taking (or as it ended up taking out) the enemy figurehead would get nothing but death or worse, while the commanders on Earth would reap the rewards of their actions. If Killzone 3 started exactly as it initially did, except with no goofy implausible heroics from the few remaining ISA squads alive on the planet, and instead truly put the player in the shoes of a Helghast soldier, starting with pulling the trigger on the character you played as in KZ2 for the broadcast, and then perhaps even giving you a choice of which faction to ally with as the rift between the corporate and military unfolded (and this would give plenty of opportunities to show how neither faction is the "good guys" even for the Helghast civilians), and two endings that are each awful for different reasons... it would have really capped off the main themes of the series, that wars are never fought by the people who benefit from and start them, that war is fundamentally incompatible with any serious notions of justice and equality. It's really unfortunate, because as it is the third game only muddies those themes. Regardless I truly appreciate the work you've done to share this with the many people who unfortunately weren't given a reason to be interested in these games based on their marketing, and the zeitgeist of the time, if one already held antiwar sentiments before 2001 and was part of that 22% (??!?!????!!?!, sigh), and had no interest in playing games meant to further glorify and propagandize for endless unilateral military campaigns in service of Wall Street. This shit has been going on for a century, in the modern form, with JP Morgan financing and greatly benefiting from the US's involvement in WW1, with everything Smedley Butler had to say after his career... and it was still only 22%. Thank you again for making these videos.

[@SultanOfAwesomeness]

Sat through these two videos in one sitting. Good stuff man; real thorough analysis. Loved every minute of it.

[@Tim0nTh]

What about side by side with a friend? PISS These (audio) cut-ins are amazing

[@thegreenjackal]

Jesus christ this is a long ass two parter. Worth every second listening to it.

[@SINGEKOO]

I just spent 5 hours watching someone talk about Killzone after only playing 1 and liberation and realizing in the first few minutes that Killzone 2 was about prolonging the war and not really feeling it. Now I keep kicking around an idea for a fan game in my head that I, unfortunately, lack any skills to make. Weird night, good video. have a good one.

[@sword4005]

i always head canon that Hakha kills rico for the destruction of helgast

[@BobExcalibur]

Right there with you brother.

[@bronco5334]

Why would he? Rico doesn't destroy Helghast. Rico fires a tactical weapon at a tactical target with the intention of neutralizing an aggressor who intended to murder billions (possibly trillions; dunno the population of Earth at this point) who were uninvolved in the conflict. Helghast was destroyed by Stahl, who seeded it with the weapons caches that caused it's destruction. If Stahl had not built all those petrusite weapons, there would have been no planetary destruction. For that matter, I doubt Rico or any of the other protagonists even suspected that the destruction of Stahl's ship would trigger such mass destruction. I imagine the point the developers were trying to make was that if you turn your entire society to the goal of killing and conquest, you ultimately bring about your own destruction. "Live by the sword" kind of thing and all. Going back to the developer's history with German occupation during WW2, it's basically the same as saying "it's bad that lots of German civilians were killed by allied bombing raids, but the bombing raids were the natural response to Germany starting a war and building up a war industry- and then allowing civilians to live next door to all those valid military targets; you can't act as if the allied bombers just decided one day, in peacetime, that 'you know what, it'd be fun to bomb a bunch of German civilians'. " Was it the allies fault for bombing the targets, or the German's fault for putting their own civilians out there to be bombed?

[@cielzendrick824]

That budget cosplay tho!

[@chumpyman]

The amount of hard work you have put into part 1 and 2 is amazing. Well done

[@seanthebluesheep]

I may have never played a single Killzone game, but I'll be damned if I'm going to pass up the chance to watch someone talk about their passion for five hours.

[@TheDominusIgnis]

Another great video! Loved this part 2 just as much as the first one :) Now onto my own rambly comment on my own feelings on the games, based entirely on your analysis of the games! Killzone 3's graphics are still very nice but they definitely feel exposed by your side by side comparison, it's definitely one I feel will not age as well in the long term. Saying that I still feel this is one of the better looking games on the PS3 and some of the spectacles in the game are genuinely breathtaking to see on the system. The gameplay looks as fun as ever and something I could sink my teeth into, yet the story feels like they had no clue how to write themselves out of the ending of Killzone 2. On the story it feels like they tried to do too many things at once which came at the cost of the most important parts of the story. I think you're absolutely correct in regard to distinguishing different groups of the Helghast, it would have really made the civil war feel all the bigger and show how bad the fight for power is in Helghan. Stahl I will say was probably the best new villain to go for, as nothing was going to ever come close to capturing Visari , so better to go for a different spin and have a person who is more self interested than someone who is all for Helghan. I admittedly have no clue what the point of Jammer was, she seems entirely superfluous. Rico is also getting more inconsistent from game to game, it's honestly a little ridiculous and means I have no real investment in the character, the complete opposite of what they were going for. The genocide ending is another interesting way to end things and definitely not something you see often however I'm also confused by it, it didn't leave me wanting more like the ending to Killzone 2 as I would finish Killzone 3 thinking "Well now what?" . Mercenary really is an excellent example of the Vita's graphical capabilities, sure the level of spectacle isn't quite the same as 3 but for a handheld title of the time it looks spectacular. While I could use the same complaint of the PSP entry in that it has no real bearing with the storyline but this feels more forgivable given it's focusing on an entirely different group, so it has no need to and can be more self contained. Boris was the best character in this entire series, I already miss him 😞 Mercenary also does something I feel might have helped 3, taking a look at a fresh set of characters. Killzone has shown its willingness to discard main characters before so getting rid of that bald fuck Rico would have been possible. If the main Killzone team at Guerilla had made a game like this with their writing chops we could have had a better focus on the power struggle where instead of it being about the ISA, we're almost a fly on the wall to the Helghan civil war while allowing the ISA mask to slip in a more thought provoking story, especially with the nuke ending. Fun fact: I actually once went to Guerilla Cambridge! They were at the tail end of developing their very last game RIGS and given their track record I wish Sony had kept them afloat as I feel they were very capable as a smaller studio, creating titles like the PSP spinoff to Little Big Planet, Killzone Mercenary as well as the unforgettable Medievil which makes the Sir Daniel Fortesque Vs Colonel Radec fight in All Stars a very nice touch in my opinion. Now onto Shadow Fall. Killzone Shadow Fall's intro really was absolutely confusing to me so your explanation was extremely helpful, like something this big deserves better nuance. The graphics are genuinely superb, to the point when I saw it was going on the cheap I knew I needed to see those visuals for myself and wow, it can look beautiful. Still one of the best looking games on the PS4 and another showcase from Guerilla how they can absolutely knock these things out of the park. Gameplay feels like it took a step back in a big way however with none of the variation and excitement of past entries and the story, while being in my opinion a step up from 3 and allowing the mask to slip far more than ever before to show how grey the conflict is, definitely feels like it didn't have the spark the prior games had. It feels like the studio were now more interested in new IPs like Horizon and that the love for Killzone had definitely wained which is a shame. I agree on the ending being a good way to end things but in a slightly different way to you, to me the ending does fit somewhat in a bleak sense, where war seems to be an almost never ending cycle due to people like Sinclair being able to help propagate a narrative even when killing Stahl, the person who kept that narrative afloat. This could break the cycle, or be seen as the evidence of continued aggression, where Sinclair could easily be whitewashed as a hero which would in turn be used as a catalyst for further conflict. I would actually be fine with them leaving the narrative there if they don't have anymore big stories they can think to tell in that universe with that as the ender being entirely interpretive. Overall 3 seems more fun to play and a better game while I feel Shadow Fall tells a more interesting story, even if it is the single most depressing, straight faced one the games have ever told with much blander gameplay, your best to worst list (mostly) makes sense to me. Absolutely stunning work as ever on this video, while I may get Mercenary when I eventually get myself a Vita for my collection, the others feel mostly things to not bother playing, with perhaps the exception of 3 if I really get into the mood. I love the look into the potential future and also the analysis you gave to every single game, even when you weren't as much of a fan of the games. It shows amazing dedication and really shows the depth of the universe of Killzone. I can't wait to see what you come up with next when you emerge from your vent, which as Killzone shows us is where all Scottish people come from :D

[@BigBadRedMantis]

his suggestion for the next game is literally the plot for kong vs godzilla

[@Fuzzball70]

Wow, this was an amazing duo of videos! Great stuff from start to finish, and at five hours long, that's really impressive! Having never played the Killzone games, I now really want to check them out. The visuals in 2 and 3 look amazing even today! I'd never come across your channel before, but now I'll definitely be looking at your other retrospectives. You have just the right proportion of humour, with great editing in of memes and jokes. Well done, you should be proud!

[@a_Minion_of_Soros]

"Of all the unanswered questions of our time, perhaps the most important is: ‘What is Fascism?’ One of the social survey organizations in America recently asked this question of a hundred different people, and got answers ranging from ‘pure democracy’ to ‘pure diabolism’. In this country if you ask the average thinking person to define Fascism, he usually answers by pointing to the German and Italian régimes. But this is very unsatisfactory, because even the major Fascist states differ from one another a good deal in structure and ideology. It is not easy, for instance, to fit Germany and Japan into the same framework, and it is even harder with some of the small states which are describable as Fascist. It is usually assumed, for instance, that Fascism is inherently warlike, that it thrives in an atmosphere of war hysteria and can only solve its economic problems by means of war preparation or foreign conquests. But clearly this is not true of, say, Portugal or the various South American dictatorships. Or again, antisemitism is supposed to be one of the distinguishing marks of Fascism; but some Fascist movements are not antisemitic. Learned controversies, reverberating for years on end in American magazines, have not even been able to determine whether or not Fascism is a form of capitalism. But still, when we apply the term ‘Fascism’ to Germany or Japan or Mussolini's Italy, we know broadly what we mean. It is in internal politics that this word has lost the last vestige of meaning. For if you examine the press you will find that there is almost no set of people - certainly no political party or organized body of any kind - which has not been denounced as Fascist during the past ten years. Here I am not speaking of the verbal use of the term ‘Fascist’. I am speaking of what I have seen in print. I have seen the words ‘Fascist in sympathy’, or ‘of Fascist tendency’, or just plain ‘Fascist’, applied in all seriousness to the following bodies of people: Conservatives: All Conservatives, appeasers or anti-appeasers, are held to be subjectively pro-Fascist. British rule in India and the Colonies is held to be indistinguishable from Nazism. Organizations of what one might call a patriotic and traditional type are labelled crypto-Fascist or ‘Fascist-minded’. Examples are the Boy Scouts, the Metropolitan Police, M.I.5, the British Legion. Key phrase: ‘The public schools are breeding-grounds of Fascism’. Socialists: Defenders of old-style capitalism (example, Sir Ernest Benn) maintain that Socialism and Fascism are the same thing. Some Catholic journalists maintain that Socialists have been the principal collaborators in the Nazi-occupied countries. The same accusation is made from a different angle by the Communist party during its ultra-Left phases. In the period 1930-35 the Daily Worker habitually referred to the Labour Party as the Labour Fascists. This is echoed by other Left extremists such as Anarchists. Some Indian Nationalists consider the British trade unions to be Fascist organizations. Communists: A considerable school of thought (examples, Rauschning, Peter Drucker, James Burnham, F. A. Voigt) refuses to recognize a difference between the Nazi and Soviet régimes, and holds that all Fascists and Communists are aiming at approximately the same thing and are even to some extent the same people. Leaders in The Times (pre-war) have referred to the U.S.S.R. as a ‘Fascist country’. Again from a different angle this is echoed by Anarchists and Trotskyists. Trotskyists: Communists charge the Trotskyists proper, i.e. Trotsky's own organization, with being a crypto-Fascist organization in Nazi pay. This was widely believed on the Left during the Popular Front period. In their ultra-Right phases the Communists tend to apply the same accusation to all factions to the Left of themselves, e.g. Common Wealth or the I.L.P. Catholics: Outside its own ranks, the Catholic Church is almost universally regarded as pro-Fascist, both objectively and subjectively; War resisters: Pacifists and others who are anti-war are frequently accused not only of making things easier for the Axis, but of becoming tinged with pro-Fascist feeling. Supporters of the war: War resisters usually base their case on the claim that British imperialism is worse than Nazism, and tend to apply the term ‘Fascist’ to anyone who wishes for a military victory. The supporters of the People's Convention came near to claiming that willingness to resist a Nazi invasion was a sign of Fascist sympathies. The Home Guard was denounced as a Fascist organization as soon as it appeared. In addition, the whole of the Left tends to equate militarism with Fascism. Politically conscious private soldiers nearly always refer to their officers as ‘Fascist-minded’ or ‘natural Fascists’. Battle-schools, spit and polish, saluting of officers are all considered conducive to Fascism. Before the war, joining the Territorials was regarded as a sign of Fascist tendencies. Conscription and a professional army are both denounced as Fascist phenomena. Nationalists: Nationalism is universally regarded as inherently Fascist, but this is held only to apply to such national movements as the speaker happens to disapprove of. Arab nationalism, Polish nationalism, Finnish nationalism, the Indian Congress Party, the Muslim League, Zionism, and the I.R.A. are all described as Fascist but not by the same people." George Orwell But no. Trump is a fascist. And say Obama wasn't. Maybe you shouldn't rely on broad-spectrum-leftists to define who they hate, because they will craft definitions that exclude those they like. The Cuban revolutionaries check a lot of the boxes, so does NK, so does the CCP. They are by their own definition anti-fascist. The word is useless, much like "racist" or "bigot" are. They were worn down with use and fell prey to malicious redefinition.

[@thealaskanseparatist6786]

Very articulate fellow you are!

[@ExeErdna]

Yeah, that's very much so on the level.

[@truecaliber1995]

A very honest and unbiased take. The only thing I'd point out, as a sort of nitpick, is that, while much Leftist groups have redefined certain political vocabulary in the name of self-interest, I'd feel remiss not leaving a reminder that it's not just the Left demonstrating such behavior. This isn't an accusation of any kind; I'm not accusing you of political bias or something of that nature. This is pure clarification for anyone that ventures down this subsection. Nothing more.

[@ericquiabazza2608]

Personally i have find that facism mostly is characterized for Ulranacionalism of a ethnic/culture group that see itself superior, thus deserves better and justifies anything to obtain it, with any challenge being label as teorrist and treason. So is something that is present in ALL comunties and ALL systems, because its a reinforcemtn to said system itself. I would say the less facism characteristic i have find being Anarchism, being that its base on the disolution fo center goverment and the action of individuals by itself being the focus, so it member can be ultra nationalist but not reach facism, as to do so they would need to organize and segregate themselves from other groups in a hierarchy.

[@ericquiabazza2608]

Also, American exceptionalism has been a thing that spawn from the Myth "The city on the hill", or "Utiopia on the hill". A myth inherit from the Church exiles that found the country. Exile that if you research enough where exile from more than 5 comunities for its ultra "narionalistic" behavior. Merica was founded on facist ideas, and has act in facist costumes since the begining, only that it has reach out of control by the power it gain trought its protectect geographical location and the wealth trought the demice of all other mayor power structures like europe during napoleonic war and World wars, and the disolution of the USSR

[@shmee123ful]

Is there any chance we might get a retrospective on red faction one day?

[@jessegauthier6985]

Guerrilla in particular was such a lost opportunity. The game where you basically play as a terrorist - a lot they could have done with that plot. Instead the EDF were just cartoonishly evil, and the RF perfect and justified. The game was really fun tho, played the hell out of that game. There was a sequel about aliens or some shit, it had a magnet gun.

[@skorgezagreat2462]

@@jessegauthier6985 I don’t think it was supposed to be anything more than the “turn brain off and break stuff” game, like watching a Godzilla movie, you just come to watch a big dumb lizard break shit. But maybe you do have a point on the terrorism thing

[@Svorty]

I'd love to see a spinoff called "A day in a life of Boris" something akin to how Postal 2 was structured. In any case this was incredibly impressive work and very well put together. Even though I have never played Killzone I would like to say you have presented the story and the characters as well as the gameplay in a very well structured manner. Even though you have said you don't plan on doing something like this again I'll still look foward to your future works. And now off I go to watch the Alien retrospective....

[@pilzbus5859]

Everytime you load up a long video i drop everthing that i'm doing and watch it. I dont care how long they are, your content is amazing. It's a crime that not more people subscribe to you. Over the years i watched your Retrospectives multiple times and will in the future. Keep up the good work!

[@respair1385]

Can't believe I actually watched 4 hours of commentary on a game. wonderful job mate! I can only imagine how much time and effort went to producing these 2 videos! looking forward to the rest of your contents.

[@Tehhorseman]

You've reminded me to replay the series. Your content is great. Hope this brings in more subs for you

[@alexbrown7708]

Why can't the protagonists ever get cool helmets? That might be half the reason I want to play as a Helgan.

[@user-qs8kh5dn5w]

this whole 2-part series was just one of the best videos for a long time. It was a treat to watch. Thank you so much for your incredible work, man. You are a true hero

[@stryker5055]

Really good job with this, thanks for taking the time to explore the series in the manner that it deserves.

[@andreworders7305]

Surprised I've never heard of this series before this video.

[@madspeterrommedahl4679]

1:00:10 Incidentally, it was also an old Latin adage used by the Roman Empire: "Si vis pacem, para bellum"

[@_BatCountry]

This is fast becoming my favourite channel.

[@Inceptionnaire]

I've been meaning to watch part 1. Guess I'll go do that now.

[@heinyhxc]

21:15 is one of my favorite lines ever and even became a bit of a meme in one of my last D&D campaigns when our party kept choosing the path of excessive force and war crimes

[@Cozypower]

i have never played killzone but this retrospective made me want to . thank you for these vids real entertaining and you just got yourself a subscriber.

[@boom-wj1gt]

I really want to see what kids of helgan look like I wanna see how cute is a lil boi who is helping soldiers by giving water with a gas mask

[@KaminoKatie]

That'd be really adorable

[@thumpersmith4015]

You can certainly see where Rebellion started getting their robot design love. Killzone 3 robots honestly could fit right in the Horizon games.

[@maskedkun3282]

The only interaction I had with this series was a trailer where the Main Protagonist™(?) was in a beautiful looking city, before everything went to hell and ground troops started to attack people. Also the masks they wore made me think of owls

[@darth_dan8886]

I am wondering... How would the impact of the ending of Shadow fall change if, instead of the revenge sequence in the end, there was a "surprise" rescue everyone saw coming (but never came)? Would it feel in any way different? An ability of two people on the opposite sides to unite, when everything else is getting torn apart... As opposed to even that short alliance being destroyed by an overzealous ISA veteran?

[@Kaninjadog]

Excellent work on these videos. I don't usually watch long essays but this retrospective is a blast and convinced me to subscribe, absolutely loved it. I always had a fondness for this franchise despite only playing Killzone 2 and Shadow Fall, really enjoyed being able to revisit the by watching your discussion and really helped deepen my fondness for this franchise as a fan of world building and lore. I hope Guerrilla revisits their franchise some day and I love your idea of where it could go in the future. Till then, cheers for the vids I'll be watching more from now on!

[@Jakesgotcakes]

Oh hell yeah this was such (yet another really) good video. Watched both parts and actually have a new view and for myself retrospective on the games. Appreciate your work good sir