#81 - Mick Gordon Interview (DOOM, Killer Instinct, Mixing, Composing, Game Awards, Royalties etc.)

[@KIWITALKZ]

TIMESTAMPS 00:00 - Intro 01:14 - How Mick Ended Up Scoring For Killer Instinct/Failing Demos 04:35 - The Direction Mick Was Given For Killer Instinct 05:53 - Learning Throat Singing 08:31 - Jago Theme Set The Direction Of The Music For Killer Instinct 10:45 - The Reality Of Deadlines & Crunch 12:40 - Doing Overnighters/Domino Effects Of Problems 14:34 - Micks Mixing Tips 16:38 - Micks BFG Division Mixing Breakdown 18:39 - Bands Having Unrealistic Expectations For Mick To Master It Like BFG Division 19:20 - Selecting Particular Instruments To Use Based On Frequency Range/Layering 21:30 - The Synth Wave Melody For BFG Division 23:20 - Originally No Guitars Were Allowed In DOOM 24:19 - Rip & Tear Was Originally Rejected/BFG Division Added Late In Development 26:25 - Implementation Of The DOOM Music 27:58 - Expectations Of DOOM Eternal/Direction Of Music For DOOM Eternal 30:16 - Writing The Music And Refining It 31:50 - Into Sandy’s City Remix Being Cut From DOOM Eternal 34:54 - Getting Feedback From Rejected Demos/Seagull Managers 36:20 - Mick Gordon Remixing DOOM For Smash Bros 37:15 - Mick Doesn’t Get Royalties 38:30 - Anonymity 40:25 - How Covid Changed The Game Industry 41:20 - Difference Between Composing For Indie & AAA 42:26 - Mick Hearing His Own Music In The Gym 43:12 - Mick’s Performance At The Game Awards 48:34 - Mick Tells Game Awards Smoke Story 49:27 - Mick Wants To Work On MK/Work Mick Has At The Moment 50:15 - Reaching Out For Projects/Challenge Of Making Games 52:49 - Designers Aren’t Sure What They Want From A Composer 54:10 - Mick Actively Moves Away From Doing Projects To Similar 55:58 - Working With Bring Me The Horizon 57:33 - Differences Between Working On Music Projects As Opposed To Games 59:41 - Spinals Theme Process 1:01:10 - Mick Shows Off Kangling instrument Used For Spinals Theme 1:02:41 - Analysing Robin Beanlands Spinal Theme For Killer instinct 1:03:24 - Sampling Killer Instinct 1:04:00 - When To Keep Themes Close To The Original Tracks And When Veer Off Course 1:05:55 - Cinders Theme 1:06:25 - Robin Beanland/Recording Of Original Killer Instinct 1:07:15 - Playing Music By Ear

[@sardonicnihilist5955]

The new Doom game won't be the same without Mick doing music, not that anyone can blame him.

[@jamescrowther7989]

K 😊kk no😊😊😊kk😊k no kkk kk

[@jamescrowther7989]

K😊k kkk no😊 kook k 😊😊 kk k no no

[@jamescrowther7989]

K K no😊😊kkkkkk😊😊

[@jamescrowther7989]

😊 Ki😊😊k no no ok

[@migilvigil]

Mick’s face when listening to questions: 🤨😳😊😳🤨

[@DropkickNation]

LOL That dude. He is such a sweetheart.

[@franciscofernandomendezvel606]

jajajjajaj yes i noticed that too!

[@3rodox]

Makes alot of sense knowing what we know now.

[@John-X]

@@DropkickNation ikr, he seems like such a passionate and pleasant guy who loves what he does, idk how anyone could believe the slander from that Marty guy.

[@ThisBirdHasFlown]

@@John-Xbecause Marty also seems sweet. You never know.

[@mister420blazeit2]

at 31:50, you can see Mick's expression changed for a brief moment when being asked about Sandy's City and the amount of tracks he sent them and still hasn't been paid for. Mick is DoomGuy for keeping all that anger and frustration to himself

[@BustyCatbot]

"That was actually rejected by SOMEONE"

[@WiresDawson]

and again at 36:10, he expects a totally different question and you can see him mentally preparing himself, before he reacts with total surprise for being asked about nintendo instead

[@SageRhyme]

This is bullshit. Mick was paid. Mick never denied being paid. He was actually paid for the rejected music in the end too.

[@Myrddin_Nebelstein]

​@@SageRhymefrom what i read in his article from a year ago this "non paying" for used songs was at the time of Interview still ongoing

[@comradecameron3726]

⁠@@SageRhymeBethesda also forced him to make and release an special edition of The Doom Eternal soundtrack. Dont act like they are saints.

[@FarnsworthOfDM]

52:10 "You hear it all the time in the gaming industry, about crunch." Mick nodding enthusiastically here makes all the more sense now.

[@legiongamer-works-podcaster]

;( poor mick

[@azrael-labs]

@@legiongamer-works-podcaster poor {name every game worker (designers, audio director etc...) of every AAA company from the last 18 years}

[@legiongamer-works-podcaster]

@@azrael-labs ??

[@JustSnowglow]

37:07 Oh Marty, you slippery snake, you.

[@Aruk02]

34:54 he's 100% talking about Marty here

[@Andiatus]

For sure. Same for 31:53, rejected by "someone". Is fascinating to watch these with the benefit of hindsight. I wish him all the best.

[@bogdanmocanu5829]

and he is still addressing this with great respect

[@roidrage4897]

he still wasn't mad at him, he was trying to find excuses for Marty's behaviour. Mick really has a good soul and that's why they abused his kindness.

[@FarmYardGaming]

For a guy that makes aggressively intense music he composes himself well

[@sjoroverpirat]

Who is marty?

[@xalener]

God knowing what was happening at the time and the fact that he's still able to conjure up so much joy at the memory of working on the game... How the fuck would someone *not* wanna work with this dude?

[@SteelOnyxYT]

Mick is way too nice and way too humble imo he was so nice to ID when working on the game He has an issue of being too good of a person tbh he’s just so kind to and about those who wronged him even when he was being screwed over he offered MORE work for ID towards the end We don’t deserve Mick Gordon 😭

[@benzzodude]

Marty “Seagull” Stratton

[@Luke-fx9gw]

mick is such a sweetheart, i didnt doubt him for a second, i knew he was telling the truth and im glad he got his side of events out there.

[@WiresDawson]

absolutely share this sentiment! he's such a legend for dealing with things the way he did for two years, before finally resorting to getting the facts out there.

[@o-REDBEARD-o]

18:43 Micks next OST leaked.

[@s0r480]

This dude is so humble, I'm shocked that people tried to bring him down.

[@BFG-hv2ml]

I see it this way: somebody with huge ego did not want to let the real genuis (mick) shine.

[@SatyreIkon]

I am not SURPRISED that people tried to bring him down. Sadly it's always the competent humble people who are targeted sooner or later because they do better work than others and stick by their decisions and suggestions because THEY DO KNOW BETTER unlike the people they work for who WANT to be the one who knows better because they pay you.

[@DoomguyAV]

Mick Gordon is legendary. Thanks for sharing this awesome interview. Rip and tear... UNTIL IT IS DONE!

[@XpMonsterX]

Funny how Into Sandy's City gets rejected for being "too gamey" while the entire Doom: Eternal threw away all atmosphere from Doom 2016 for the sake of being more "gamey".

[@novai6554]

Into sandys city would have been really offputting and not fit the game at all. Better to stick to certain melodies referencing the old games that having it in your face and confuse the 80% of players who don't know the song

[@XpMonsterX]

@@novai6554 E1M1 lacks the punch ending requires. With a different editing to match Into Sandy it would be perfect, but yes, if you just take current ending and put Into Sandy's there it will sound off place. We also don't have exact variation of Sandy's Mick wanted for the game to have, but I'm sure it would be great.

[@dannydiablo.]

@@XpMonsterX this was the exact variation Mick wanted for the game. If you check out Mick's stream just before/after the game came out, he played it and told it probably will be an unreleased track. A month later, we got it along with the OST.

[@XpMonsterX]

@@dannydiablo. ​ Forgot about this one. "Final Sin - Sandy City" is definetely way better than what we got instead.

[@BobTheReaper]

@@XpMonsterX doom eternal is supposed to be a gamey ass game. That's why it's so damm good. But I'm trying to figure out why the hell would they say that. It's like the guys working over the soundtrack arent even in the same mindset as the guys making the game. Its soo weird

[@BrandonBlume]

Man this interview in hindsight. Even then he was being charitable to Marty despite touching on what Marty put him through.

[@thebigboi5357]

I bought DOOM 2016 because of Mick Gordon's GDC talk. Then DOOM Eternal became my favorite game of all time - I've spent 200 hours on it, which I've never done in a single player game. And now Mick is gonna sell me on another game, Killer Instinct!

[@christiangottsacker6932]

Hes also doing music for Atomic Heart

[@KentuckyFriedJohansson]

I literally bought doom because of the music (Hellwalker) that played in the main menu during the multiplayer beta. I would start the beta for the song alone, and kept the beta installed long after it ended just so I could hear the song until the game released.

[@williams8977]

29:35 What he says he is extremely accurate and makes a lot of sense. The player processes information in between the beats, and makes a decision once the beat hits. It explains why a lot of the game syncs up with the soundtrack.

[@RhysClark97]

A lot of the stuff mick says in this video about how rejected music still got used anyways tracks with his explanation of how he wasn't paid for a lot of the final music in the game, dude was truthful from the start but was clearly being professional AF about it.

[@indyg1138]

10:44 - 12:22 He tried to warn us, and we didn’t listen…

[@3rodox]

Free Mick

[@telefrag.]

Hearing him talk about how his first "guitar" demos were rejected I understand how Gordon could make any power-tripping asshole manager go nuts. They told him "no guitars" and he proved them how wrong they were to the point where he came to the stage to play a guitar and people loved it. Imagine that person watching the success from the backstage and realising that his own ideas wouldn't bring a fraction of what Mick achieved in spite, taking the spotlight in process. Now, a decent director would've let Gordon do his job on the sequel and no one would remember his mistake. A petty asshole in power, however, decided to dish out his completely asinine revenge. Good thing we know now who is who.

[@w_m_i]

Mixing tips from the legend himself? What an absolute gem of an interview

[@ehdrootofbeard4411]

He's so genuinely enthusiastic and humble! 😍 Like he never lost that Newbie Thirst!

[@juno5241]

24:19 so THATS why rip and tear sounds so different than the other tracks

[@ericinfinity4211]

I want mick back Nothing against the new composers but the ancient gods dlc music just doesn't feel the same And putting into Sandy's city in the final scene instead of e1m1 would have been way better imo Edit: 2 years, 2 years of being mocked for defending Mick, being right has never felt this good

[@BobTheReaper]

@@cosmozapallo4530 that's unfair to say. Blood swamps is really damm catchy and so is UAC Atlantica. Gotta admit, not a big fan of the other themes in dlc 2(besides immora, the credits, and the main menu music) but dlc 1 had fire ass themes not one fell flat for me. I've learned not to compare it to what mick has done because I have so much love for him and what he has done for doom

[@ghostapostle7225]

@@cosmozapallo4530 "Id is gonna be very sorry for what they did"? Get your story straight, it's all Mick's fault.

[@Wobbothe3rd]

I think Gordon's work is unmatched, HOWEVER both Levy and Hushult's work was fantastic and actually had some of the most memorable moments in the entire soudtrack. Blood Swamps, Holt as well as the DLC2 theme and the final boss are as good musically as anything Mick Gordon made - they just aren't arramged and mixed as well and they don't use the same process as Gordons.

[@Proxima.q]

Mick Gordon's statement on twitter has all the answer.

[@eldonhill4840]

@@ghostapostle7225 this aged well

[@user-rw8zj1td9v]

Back in Black is also a good example. The snare is in between the guitar in the main riff.

[@praisetheson4601]

This is probably the best Mick Gordon interview I've listened to. The questions were great and thorough. Subscribed :)

[@ChaosPootato]

His answers take a whoooole other dimension when you consider the latest events...

[@SatyreIkon]

Glad I found this. I was a translator on Killer Instinct and discovered Mick's work from there. Great guy, incredible talent! Shame that his Quarantine and Chill livestream recording on DOOM Eternal is not available anymore, I really enjoyed that, but HOLY SHIT, I am happy hearing him talk about KI. That's some great musical variety.

[@Meloguam]

I keep friggin coming to listen this interview every now and then 🖤

[@hubbles117]

18:06 I once caught a fish this big

[@drakewilliams6069]

I STAND WITH MICK

[@МаксимБирюков-э3э]

#JUSTICEFORMICK

[@Squiggly6942]

Mick being very humble. As someone not in the music industry or the gaming industry, Mick is the only game composer I really know. Goat

[@Jombo1]

He seems like a very upbeat person for someone who makes absolutely brutal tracks.

[@evgSyr]

Let me introduce you to Junji Ito.

[@ebookjapan8054]

Very telling how he doesn't throw anyone at iD under the bus or talk negatively about the project after reading his article.

[@json_bourne3812]

The fact he hasn't listened to his DOOM 2016 album since shipping is INSANE to me..

[@syro2412]

I didn't know he was that friendly. A shame the developers didn't treat him well.

[@RhysClark97]

47:30 Yeah nobody wants a static camera rock performance that is completely out of tone with what its all about, I think that choice forcing everyone to adapt is one of the reasons Micks performance from 6 years ago is still easily the most viewed thing on the Game Awards channel

[@dystonic]

Mick doesn't get royalties. All the more reason to listen to Doom Eternal OST ripped from the game and put here on youtube. Tracks are still not protected to this day. This interview is gold btw.

[@Cthulch]

A podcast like this should definitely include pieces of music being discussed for the listeners to kinda sample what's being discussed.

[@bobbywjamc]

All these talks with composers have been invaluable. Little nuggets of info I wouldn't get otherwise. Fantastic interview questions!! I look forward to the next ones!

[@cathyouyang9521]

It always makes me happy to see this man I love him

[@jakedill1304]

He really is a complete and utter wonderful human being ray of sunshine, like my first candid just him talking was the GDC he did for Doom 2016, and it was genuinely one of the best not just GDC presentations but just a really good presentation for both industry musicians and just just everything really, it was definitely not what I was expecting* like, this is not always the best tie in but as a musician he's a communicator, and usually that communication skill is.. I suppose it it's usually not this transferable LOL and and that's why it's just so genuinely wonderful in addition to him just kind of seeming like a wonderful dude. I hope the current situation right now doesn't completely destroy the atomic heart future.. been following that game for almost what seems like a decade... Can only imagine the genuine what the fuck just happened yesterday moment on a lot of those companies, on every side of things.. and that's the complete disregard for business livelihood and Future, let's not even get into the complete disregard for human life of course.. which I feel like I had to mention at least, cuz it's it's not a one-to-one LOL it's just below the bar of shitty and scales down from there I suppose. *Although in all fairness a lot of the ID presentations were and are really good in general, cuz they're just kind of a different company, like in terms of what the industry is going towards and what the current crop are thinking and the sadly at least in America the corporate structure that has become the mainstay... Which actually kind of explains a lot of why things have started to stand out even less over the years, and yet in contrast even more.. when they're you know not shitty, no matter how much hard work you put into a thing, if it never really had a soul to begin with.. the only soul that really has is all the blood sweat tears and nervous breakdowns from abusive managers, which it's it's something but it's definitely not a good thing LOL and doesn't seem to make great games, at least now that it's become systemic rather than just traditional production byproduct... Lke GDC is is wonderful.. but it can be very depressing at times lol and id is just not usually a part of that... also they they talk out loud, in public sometimes which is just in and of itself a marker as to how different things are there.. Even if it's complicated nowadays LOL and the differences aren't always black and white night and day, it behind the scenes it definitely is.. just kind of sit there and count your blessings that Activision didn't buy them up like they did Raven, and bethesda\Zenimax had already had its fill of blood from human head studios I guess...

[@EndyBlackUnofficial]

Also Mick is sit on sofa, that amazing looks like soviet carpet on walls. Решпект!

[@dogemaester]

Wow.. Never realised Mick was such a nice guy.

[@richardbeare11]

As a player, my impression as to why the slower/groovier tracks in Doom Eternal works well is that their rhythm and groove matches the rhythmic "flow" of gameplay in Doom Eternal. I happen to LOVE those slower grimey beats ❤

[@franciscofernandomendezvel606]

I am a digital artist and i do motion graphics too..i just identified with many thing MIck gordon said...about deathlines and changes in projects!! Totally my job many times is like that!

[@lord_asmo]

50:00 -- a word about Atomic Heart

[@TempGuest7]

gotta love when aussies and kiwis get together always a good time for everyone

[@ClaytonLeblanc]

Mick, your such a humble dude! Much respect to you and your craft of master pieces!

[@Mindseas]

This interview is VERY different to listen to today than it was in 2021. Great discussion tho!

[@CaffeinatedHiFi]

Man you can really read between the lines with his answers after recent news haha

[@nogoodchad4473]

Mick coming back for another round of KI would shiver me timbers in ways I can't describe.

[@Josh_bak]

Wow thank you so much for this, we need more Mick interviews.... there’s not enough

[@EdgardR.]

I never enjoyed Doom Eternal, not even a quarter compared to my experience with 2016 DOOM. Knowing how much they dared to wrong one of the most important contributors to the game that came before this one, I get it now. I always felt something was wrong and I think there is more as to why Eternal turned out like it did (besides just the music). The "Eternal" game never started to begin with.

[@_KillerD_]

Ok. 😐

[@metallicarabbit]

no, the game is great, its just not for you and thats ok. but the treatment of Mick is unforgivable

[@ThatOneRightThere]

Awesome interview! Loved hearing about Mic's decision process during crafting of the songs from the start to ensure a crisp track!

[@StayTh1rsty]

I found this to be extremely informative from a musical production standpoint.

[@StayTh1rsty]

I also take umbrage at the fact that I'm taking notes. Ew.

[@jaredrodriguez6849]

Hearing Rip & Tear was almost not in the game makes me sad. Every single Track is literal 🔥

[@Ahmad-ru4ou]

I can’t accept the fact that that mick is not in the new doom game. f*** marty

[@Synthetically]

@@Ahmad-ru4ousame dude its actually tragic, I know for a fact the game will just be trying to imitate the past 2 games but they won’t do it right since they don’t have mick

[@averagedoometernalenjoyer5990]

I am so fucking obsessed and in love with Mick's work. Doom's soundtrack is imo the closest OST ever to being perfect.

[@ArnieRodriguez]

yesss needed this.. Mick is so inspiring to me. thanks you guys

[@Squiggly6942]

What a fuck up by ID not letting Mick cook on Eternal. Sandy City should have been the outro...

[@JoeyFTL]

28:52 THEY WERE JUST BAD AT THE GAME seriously though, I will forever mourn the painful omission of the 264 bpm track

[@Wobbothe3rd]

Doom Eternal is my favorite soundtrack for any videogame since Sonic 3. I disagree about BFG10K in the game, that was my favorite song in the entire game. Putting it in a really tough level (also my favorite!) was PERFECT!!!

[@heathurdang7822]

Killer Instinct was my fav back then 🎮

[@nyxview7319]

it's been a long time since the last time i hear about Mick Gordon Thank you for Interviewing Mick Gordon!

[@peterbatten596]

16:38 Mick Gordon actually chose F# because Dimebag Darrell already said it, “F? Semi-Gayidity”. I’m seriously going to miss him on Doom: The dark ages…whenever I buy it 2nd hand from a local mom and pop shop.

[@istvanwusching4199]

good to hear his approach first hand! 🤘 🎤

[@zdendafric1739]

it's too humble to admit he's the best!

[@Schiborr]

Hi there, Excellent Interview. It was really great to hear all the details regarding his work and the things that are involved that can be sometimes overbearing. Definitely great job. Thank you. \m/

[@euronico7949]

Gonna miss my boy mick 😔

[@Mr_Waffle.]

I don't know why it took me 3 years to find this video! He seems like a lovely guy, I love his passion for music. A damned shame about the BS Id/Bethesda pulled, hope he's doing well now.

[@churro_blast8923]

He deserves better

[@Irades]

What an amazing interview

[@MrTBSC]

"rip and tear rejected" .... * TABLEFLIPS ALL OF HELL* ..... "remember that first track i made? let´s ake that" .... THANK THE GODS!!! no seriously i personaly like rip and tear MUCH more then BFG devision ... ... now imagine my (and very likely others) dissapointment with the nekravol theme not getting he same soundtrack treatmeant because to me it felt like the "rip and tear" of that game ....

[@AramZero]

30:05 look at his face xD I STAND WITH MICK.

[@The_Dinosaur_Heretic]

God, watching this interview back, you can just see how upset Mick really is about DOOM and id Software. I feel so bad for the guy. I hope he gets paid for his work

[@MrChisponX]

Missed opportunity to ask about Mick's versions of the DOOM Eternal soundtrack

[@KIWITALKZ]

At the time he had already done a 2 hour session on his own channel breaking down the DOOM Eternal tracks. It has since been deleted, probably due to the ongoing legal matters

[@user-rf4vc7mt4d]

You can find that somewhere on someone's google drive. I love that video

[@DOOMLORDHOKAGE]

2 of the best tracks in DOOM 2016 almost didn’t make it into the game. Wild. In almost every medium, creative intervention by someone that isn’t the creative ends poorly. Let directors direct, and let composers compose.

[@AndrewCARNBORN]

We NEED Mick to do a Mortal Kombat game for the love of all that's holy

[@georgie9303]

NetherRealm rejected Mick Gordon for Mk11 lol. Good luck bro

[@AndrewCARNBORN]

@@georgie9303 I know lmao I still want it

[@Gixxerkid600]

I loved Mick’s reaction when he was compared to Dr Dre, he’s like “ehh idk about that”😂 Very humble lovable person

[@antondavidovic3996]

id marketing Doom Eternal: "We're making a Video game with a capital V". Also id: "This absolutely terrific piece of music sounds too gamy and 8 bit to put in the game"...

[@dannydiablo.]

it annoys me to see that they can add the 'dazed/stunned' sound in the TAG DLC but can't add Sandy City in the ending cuz it sounds too gamey..

[@BobTheReaper]

@@dannydiablo. it's like the people who work on the game arent in the same mind as the people who work on the soundtrack. The people who actually work on the gameplay are so open with the public. But those working on the soundtrack dont make a single peep. It's like it's not the same company

[@nottrevorallen]

"no guitars i dont like guitarists" as a guitarist this is based

[@psykosmach6132]

thanks for sharing that!

[@TheFretzone]

Really nice interview with good questions :)

[@aced4fun]

mick is such a nice guy holy hell

[@avatar94100]

Mick has the sweetest smiles :))

[@VectormanOverkill]

GIVE THIS MAN MORTAL KOMBAT NOW, ED!

[@bio8258]

I did not know Mick did prey literally best ost of all time

[@DinnerForkTongue]

What I'd REALLY like to see is a collab between Mick Gordon and James freakin' Paddock.

[@kainoajungruivivar4026]

I’m pumped for atomic heart. The trailers look sick.

[@polskastylezz187]

love micks stuff wolfenstein is king

[@unknownfilmmaker777]

Nice job on the interview.

[@cryingpsycho]

Bro I miss him

[@Sykelone]

Mick is such a bloody lovely guy, holy wow

[@12345harv12345]

Well, Mick, you are our hero!

[@juliancarreon5569]

I can never forgive Marty

[@GABi-gj8fz]

Maybe not most of the people think like me but actually I really anjoy playing fast games with the fastest and most intense metal I know, I like feeling adrenaline while having to get through a really intense section of the game

[@kaibe5241]

Holy shit, I had no idea Mick was an aussie!!! :O

[@DC-zi6se]

I never expected Mick would say making music was boring at times, especially his kind of music. I guess he IS right, it's managing a grand dinner but most of it is peeling potatoes.

[@zenith8417]

Its still work at the end of the day, same with any hobby turned career, and hearing all the effort and thought he puts into his tracks sounds like his job is very stressful but rewarding.

[@christiangottsacker6932]

Seagull managers. Flys in and they only _see gull_

[@sunbleachedangel]

37:07 oh no..

[@JohnJohn-ss5vj]

Bethesda hates him for some reason

[@xNightskyy]

@@JohnJohn-ss5vjIt was Id software, Bethesda didn't do anything

[@RhysClark97]

35:25 Marty Stratton