Klamacz says no refrogger suppression | Arma Reforger 1.3

[@JoelLinus]

I recommend everyone to play this game with full volume, you will literally have a suppression effect reaction yourself IRL.

[@Xiaoxiao738]

Yea I agree no blur affect just having your aim affected and at most a slight vignette if its a high caliber round. For me suppresion is not about making players value their lives, its more about making heavy weapons actually effective, like you said its almost pointless to use a vehicle mounted machine gun most of the time.

[@caracal3892]

That is what I was trying to convey. There should be a mechanical distortion of the aim to simulate the instinct of trying to hide form danger that is present in real life.

[@ArchOfficial]

The noise and dust flying into your eyes is quite a large component of it. Grenade launcher 40mm is almost impotent as an area weapon, but causes tremendous noise and dust. At the very least, volume should be muffled and reduced while suppressed (Safer than loud noises IMO) and vision should be obscured depending on the weapon.

[@JabezBRO]

Another great video mate, the whole concealment part you’ve spoke about is a great take on why there needs to be some sort of suppression system. I love sniping in this game and overwatching objectives from treelines and foliage from a distance of 500 meters or more and I know I’m gonna be safe 90% of the time just because how it’s almost impossible being able to spot from a distance without a scope. If a suppression system was added of some sort and it created more tension when being fired upon I wouldn’t be nearly as effective as I am now because of the suppression blurs or screen shakes. I guess there’s positives and negatives to both sides but it’s definitely something I hope they rethink to give more chance for both players (myself sniping from a tree line, the people I’m sniping are suppressing me in the direction of fire) Keep it up Caracal 👍

[@caracal3892]

Thanks! That's the thing, in real life a sniper would have to duck from fire at 500m from not wanting to risk his life betting against the fire hitting. Also in real life a 10% chance of a hit is probably a bet no one would like to take. Refrogger has to have some system that approximates the desire to avoid danger.

[@Fanatic102nd]

​@@caracal3892 Screen effects are not it. Bullets landing right next to you are good enough for tension. The only thing that makes people do suicidal things are unlimited almost instant respawns. Whenever you load up a scenario in any Arma where you have limited or no respawns your approach completely changes and screen effects are absolutely unnecessary. Yesterday I joined a server where the game was just about to finish with soviets overrunning the coastal base. In these short 15 minutes I respawned probably once every minute to instantly run back to the CQB mess inside the base. You think any screen effect would make me "scared" to die in such scenario? No. But a 5minute respawn or at least the inability to respawn right in the middle of the conquested base would. Then I played another game where I had multiple firefigths and whenever bullets started impacting right into my cover I stayed down, threw smoke and moved because I had no quick respawn available close to the location. There is simply no need to make Reforger into another Squad.

[@MRrealmadridRaul]

Suppression in real life greatly depends on combat experience. Everyone in the military has heard a bullet crack from being on the range. However, the first time reacting to accurate fire, lots of people react by ducking their heads, sometimes even panicking. However, looking at footage from Ukraine, once people get over the "oh shit someone is actually trying to kill me" factor, they become a lot harder to suppress. They even become reckless. There's two stand out videos from Ukraine. One of the Ukrainian with a squire fending off a mechanized Russian attack with a section of Russians and a BMP2 shooting at him with a 30mm autocannon within 50m of his trench. The Ukrainian peeks multiple times to fire his RPG even though the BMP2 is actively shooting at him. The Ukrainian eventually hits and disables the BMP2. Another video is a BTR82A along with a dismount on top of the BTR shooting hit disposable AT at a lone Ukrainian. Even though you can see the 30mm autocannon, coax and RPG rounds landing all around the Ukrainian, he continues to fire gp-25 rounds at the BTR. War is hell and experience along with the warrior spirit makes people do what normal people would consider INSANE.

[@caracal3892]

I think there is also selective perception that should be a factor when considering: 1. Videos like that where someone goes fearless rambo (and they survive it) are likely a rarity. Because if someone goes rambo against an armored vehicle with a 30mm gun and it fails there is a chance the helmet camera will never be found. 2. There are probably more situations where people panic or at least stop peeking out of cover, however no one likes to show a video of themselves where they panic so there is an underrepresentation of those situations in combat video. 3. And if everyone would become fearless with combat experience then why do armies teach fire and maneuver? If every defender could just pixel peek one shot without fear? The argument of people being able to ignore suppression with experience is true to some extent, but I think there is a limit to that. 4. And what if a person's combat experience is having seen people close by being rambo and it failing? That would have a terrible effect on their confidence of peeking out. I have read stories of people saying they lose all sense of self-preservation in these situations and just want to work with their team. But even then they would likely be only as much "rambo" as their perceived situation allows. For example a soldier getting shot at in in open field will likely not rambo and he will instead run for cover. A soldier who has been in a fortified position for sometime will feel safer and be more likely to try to rambo.

[@jerry6368]

sometimes I like to stare at the FPV drones and day-dream, thats just me though

[@sudonix5923]

I agree with you. After a while getting shot at becomes the norm. However this is a video game so the game can't depict whether or not you've been acclimated to the battle space for 6 months. What they could do is, the initial fire suppresses you. As kind of a shock. And then, after sustained suppressive fire, the suppression effect wears off. I'm not talking about a suppressed overlay that affects your entire screen but there should maybe be a slight fish eye affect that definitely keeps you from making risky moves and forces you to use cover. After sustained bursts of suppressive fire impacting all around you and going over your head, the affect goes away. This gives machine gunners in the game their ACTUAL role and creates another tactical advantage for the shooter vs defender. This can result in strategic decisions.

[@Looking4Mountains]

​@sudonix5923 you could also de-buff the suppression the longer your character has lived. Initially after spawn suppression has full effect, but if you manage to survive long enough to get the veteran points bonus you take less suppression. That incentivizes people to take care of their character.

[@sudonix5923]

@@Looking4Mountains yea that's what I mean like the suppression stops working over prolonged fire. However. Maybe a cool down. Like after 30 seconds of no suppression affect, if you get suppressed again, then you're hit with a suppression affect all over again, which subsequently wears off after a few seconds.

[@_Toxiicc_]

I think that the problem with the idea of a suppression system is that it leaves a bad taste in people's mouths because you have games like Battlefield where your entire screen goes "high stressed" of which people dislike and what not. But I definitely agree with you on the mounted guns. The only implementation they really have in the game is vehicle vs. vehicle combat and fear factor just a bit

[@caracal3892]

I think this is a good example, in BF they overdo the sensory distortion for everything all the time. That is why I wanted to make the point that the aim vector distortion is what should be used, not the screen blur.

[@Suomiwimbula]

If milsim like qualities leave a bad taste maybe milsim games aren't for you? Peppering a building with an MG and getting sniped by the guy you're trying to suppers due to lack of mechanics sure leaves a bad taste but lets prioritize the rambo wannabe peoples feelings.

[@dosdoğruyup]

@@Suomiwimbula I don't understand why no suppresion mechanic to you people mean allowing rambo wannabes? Obviously the movement system and how weapons mostly work wouldn't allow that. It is not all about suppresing. And imo suppresing is neither realistic nor fun. Suppresing happens already when you deny them from leaving the cover by shooting at the cover edges.

[@Suomiwimbula]

@dosdoğruyup Because it stops rambos which is why rambos whine about it? Despite your no doubt very extensive experience of being under fire, suppression is a very real thing and is taught to all soldiers when practicing squad and platoon level tactics, which are kind of the core elements of milsim games. Yeah its not 1/1 because its a game, you don't respawn in real life either or patch up a torso turned swiss cheese but no whining about those for some reason.(because that would mean less time going rambo) Fun is totally subjective and a weak argument. Lean spam peeking a corner and shooting the guy trying to suppress you like it was R6 siege is also not fun and very much not in the spirit of milsim games.

[@sudonix5923]

​@@dosdoğruyup hi, I can 100% unequivocally say that getting shot at IRL by a pkm has an oh shit factor that makes me keep my head down. However, in a video game I don't care quite as much and will just peak the corner and shoot the machine gunner while he is impacting the walls all around me because, well, I can just respawn if it doesn't work out.

[@PENGUIN5115]

This issue has been hotly discussed for months on the feedback tracker. How we as an individual respond and how our avatar do are separate reactions. Not all of us will repond to stress the same way. Its the physiological vs the psychological response of a individual. Thats the hard part of the "suppression" equastion. Just because the smart thing to do is keep your head down or get cover doesnt mean that the player will respond that way. That freedom should be preserved, because in real life its no different. We all respond to stress and danger differently. Some of us run, some fight, some freeze. The impact these actions have directly impact the engagment. Maybe you engage the machine gunner directy and die in the process. Maybe you grab cover utilize communication to have a freindly flank or provide fire support. Maybe you hop around like a lunatic because your brain isnt working. Or maybe your addrenaline kicks in your return fire is accurate enough to "suppress" the MG and he moves out of fear of dying. We dont all react the same why should we be treated as if we do?

[@danczer1]

In real life people react differently on suppression because of the fear of death. You can make similar value in game if you have a server which does not allow respawn. If that would be the case in arma I would agree to not use any suppression effect on the targeted. However Arma main game modes has respawn so some kind of suppression is needed to counter effect the value of the infantry vs vehicles /static mounts. Eg.: in conflict game mode your rank could have effect on the effect on the suppression. Higher the rank it should be harder to suppress.

[@gabrielchcosta]

nah, players will not be scared for their character life most of the time. Suppression won't really have an effect and players will calmly fire back with accurate fire if there aren't any mechanics implemented. So that dev's decision is not the best imo, its naïve to think all or even most players will be affected by that real psychological suppression of "oh shit I'm gonna die, i better hide". Most likely the opposite will happen and they will quickly peak and try to kill the threat that isn't laying down accurate fire.

[@sillyslapper92]

I think a good way of implementing a suppression system for a game like Arma would be to simulate the affects of raised heart rate and adrenaline in response to fear of close incoming fire. In other words; increase hand shake in a realistic manner, not exaggerated though. That's a realistic response to fear which improves the effect of suppressive fire without the immersion breaking screen blur. Honestly, the biggest issue with most milsim shooters is difficulty in simulating how difficult it is to shoot accurately at distance. A soldier in real-life would struggle to perform similar feats of accuracy you can do in game like this especially when you consider context of fatigue and excitement/fear in combat.

[@luanthomewagner187]

The most realistic form of supression in gaming is flinching. Like when the player is getting shot at the camera should move away from the round as if the character was reacting to it. Making it so that the player has to zero-in everytime a bullet passes by him. Discoloration and blur or screen darkening are cool, but they're just to unrealistic. Things like adrenaline (The character shaking) or fatigue are also good in games like Refrogger since most engagements take longer to end.

[@EthanMckinnell]

Just a little flinch would be nice

[@caracal3892]

That is why RO2's system was so nice, most of it was just some flinching. It was minimalistic and did exactly what it should do. Throw off the player's aim to decrease the chance of accurately firing back.

[@me67galaxylife]

Just nothing at all would be nicer

[@sudonix5923]

@@me67galaxylife then why have machine guns?

[@me67galaxylife]

@ Firepower and suppression. You don't need artificial suppression if you play with people that know at least somewhat what they're doing on both sides

[@sudonix5923]

@@me67galaxylife you can do that with a rifle. They fire literally the same ammo... 4 riflemen (M4s) can have the exact same effect as a machine gunner (m249). The difference is that the machine gunner suppresses the enemy so that the rifleman can maneuver into a better position during their assault. IRL, a machine gunner has a job and is critical to a fire team element. There is no way to replicate that in a video game unless there is a debuff to the defender by a machine gunner.

[@brexxes]

I am my own suppression effect. The 'oh shite' moments and adrenaline is enough sometimes 😂 I would rather like no suppression at all than one with those visual effects. I am already having problems seeing stuff because of visual snow syndrome and those effects are really irritating for me. Red Orchestra 2 is really one of the most immersive experiences I had. I remember getting overrun in a multistory house and I somehow was the last one alive. Enemy troops all around me and I've been hiding and sneaking around taking out one by one until someone got me. Pure adrenalin

[@caracal3892]

That is what I liked about RO2, when I played as a DP-28 machinegunner, having situations where the enemy side figured out my position and kept hammering it until I had to abandon the position and crawl on the ground to safety.

[@realvuk]

We wouldnt need suppression if there was a fear of dying, but being able to: 1. Respawn after ~ 30 seconds. 2. Spawn on FOB 3. Spawn on radio kits 4. Teleport to base/ radio kit 5. Spin around instantly are all design feature that make one not care about dying. I completely understand what Klamacz means when he says its not realistic but if you are going to have all these features I mentioned then any kind of suppression system is more than realistic.

[@command_unit7792]

Every person is different so I kinda see the point of not adding suppression effects...(I simulate most of them myself anyway in the game naturally with my reactions to sudden gunfire.)

[@caracal3892]

I think it starts distorting the realistic gameplay when players hiding in a treeline with no real cover start shooting AT launchers at armored vehicles. In real life the fear of what may happen if the thing sees you would force people to make decisions on what cover to use before even shooting. In refrogger that fear is currently not simulated so players will take any risk to take a shot at an armored vehicle. So the moment an armored vehicle is spotted, AT players turn into fearless terminators. While the player in the armored vehicle carries the risk of supply cost worth of 50 player spawns.

[@command_unit7792]

@caracal3892 Depends on the person...Some people are just built different. meanwhile I experienced PTSD from being shot at in Reforger...especially with higher caliber weaponry.

[@Norkeys]

​@@caracal3892 I mean ambushes happen. If players are shooting while its shooting at them its a different matter of course. But to anyone sitting in a treeline looking at a distracted APC/IFV, of course theyre gonna shoot and scoot.

[@gr1m375]

Arma claims to be a military simulation. Militaries have infantry doctrine that is dependent on suppression in order to win a fight. Machine guns themselves are area suppression weapon systems (because they aren’t as accurate as rifles) their main role in an element is exactly that. To gain fire superiority over the enemy and suppress them so you you can maneuver and kill them. For ARMA to truly be a simulation of infantry combat you NEED suppression mechanics. Not screen blur but the other methods you went over would work well.

[@tweedyharfunkel]

there is only one real supression mechanic - when life in game really costs something. Heck, even giving one life per TvT event is not enough for many people, but it still alters people's tactics. For conflict mode you can implement mod which bans player for 1 hour for dying to get something similar (will help to have smaller queue btw). Better mod could be not banning, but altering queue in a way that kicked player won't connect for given amount of time unless there are no players not having this debuff on them.

[@narcolepticmarshmallow9012]

@@tweedyharfunkel that would make supression better, it would also be complete anti-fun and no one would play it. There is a line between immersion and annoyance and that goes way over it. And it's not like changing servers is immersive either, some things we just can't simulate on a computer screen and making players fear for their life is one of them. Imo it's a futile effort to even try

[@tweedyharfunkel]

@@narcolepticmarshmallow9012 yep and that's why you have to cope with it and stop peeking at mg trying to snipe gunner :-) You also have to pick driver and drive/fly more carefuly to avoid road accidents and ambushes. You also have to operate in some group (aka squad) to survive longer, when driving BTR or M2 Humvee or LAV 25 you have to operate with infantry cover and on distance from enemy infantry to avoid getting destroyed by AT weapons. In theory one can even surrender instead of dying, but in practice that's still highly unlikely. One-life TvT events are even more un-fun in this sense, but hundreds of players still play them weekly on Arma 3, Squad and Reforger, mainly because it's much more immersive (but harder too) that way.

[@zetryk4600]

@@tweedyharfunkelit doesnt matter what infantry you are with buddy, as soon as they hear the .50 rip all eyes are on that until hes dead, and its not like the .50 can do much because he is stationary and he cant do anything but kill them which is hard when u have a large area coverage of enemies, which makes your death inevitable, however with suppression he can continuously put fire over all of the different areas simultaneously while infantry move up, and if someone is stupid enough to peak they wont be accurate enough to get him before he sees them and takes them out, which is exactly how it should work, you should not be able to contest vehicles head on easier than infantry, it should require tactical decision making and maneuvers to take out such an important asset(unimportant without suppression)

[@tweedyharfunkel]

@superclip4600, yep if only those humvees had shield of some sort on MG, or .. wait maybe remote controlled turret like CROWS to deter those guys :-) sounds familiar? Then why they did that in real life if not for recognizing same problem you describing here? Why do you think BTR-70 KPVT paired with PKT is located in armored tower, when in BTR-50 MG was mounted on top of the vehicle? Why didn't they relied on magical power of real life suppression you want to introduce here? Takeaway here is that if you sit on top of the vehicle open with MG and shoot at enemy and they can return accurate fire with their rifles you placed yourself in a risky situation. Which is kinda strange because 5.45-5.56 rifle effective range is about 500m, when your .50 cal can shoot targets up to 2 kilometers. Same with PK, which can rain steel on enemies at 1000 meters and enemy can't shoot you back with anything but MG and maybe lucky sniper (thanks to absence of wind effect on bullet ballistics in this game), heck caracal even had video about it here on his channel. That's why popular taliban tactic against US forces in Afganistan was to use PKM near it's maximum effectiveness range against US troops - which couldn't respond back with rifle fire or SAW effectively. And that's in part why current iteration of rifle for US army has bigger caliber and shiny computerized optics with laser range finder on it. I think in this part this game is really good because it's able to teach you this by example.

[@sudonix5923]

There needs to be a slight suppression system. The issue with video games is they have the curse of respawn. People will engage you in very risky ways because there is no real consequence. They just respawn. Sure, they have to wait 20 seconds. But thats it. Suppression is a way to affect the enemy players in a way that prevents them from taking those risky actions. People forget that its still a game and aspects of the game, such as making risky decisions because of respawning or just the fact that it isnt real life, need to be artificially debuffed. Also suppression lets you know you're being shot at directly vs just over spray.

[@fijiwater1v]

As always, a great factual video, keep it up caracal

[@caracal3892]

Thanks!

[@glennpeterson1357]

BI did try a suppression mechanic on Experimental a while back, personally I didn’t like it, but do agree some suppression effect could be good. It’s a polarising thing, I get it. Klamacz said to “value your life” and that’s the trick. You gotta “punish” players more for dying

[@zetryk4600]

when did they do this i dont recall?

[@glennpeterson1357]

@ can’t quite remember. A year ago? Longer? It was pretty crappy

[@Nutter-l3s]

I agree, long respawns are not a substitute for suppression mechanics.

[@blanchbacker]

Yeah. People just watch TikTok when they get long respawn timers. It’s not a punishment

[@me67galaxylife]

@blanchbacker Well it’s true that if you have zoomer brainrot and you actually enjoy using that, it might not punish you; but it still balances the game

[@sudonix5923]

@@me67galaxylife good lord dude up and down these comments. Maybe Arma isn't the game for you.

[@me67galaxylife]

@ Hm sure i must "dude up" because i criticized being addicted to brainrot tiktok dopamine, then again at the marine corp they eat crayons so that might explain it

[@me67galaxylife]

@ Hm sure i must "dude up" because i criticized being addicted to brainrot tiktok dopamine

[@Adam-i5h8f]

If they add barrel changing to balance MGs from red orchestra as well this game would be perfect Oh and team loading like in helldivers.

[@DiezALOT3128]

Suppression is necessary because the gunfights just turn into full auto strafe and spray without it.

[@JoelLinus]

It's not necessary, please don't let this game become Squad.

[@ArchOfficial]

@@JoelLinus Squad IS a full auto strafe and spray game. Project Reality is a better comparison. Arma SHOULD become more like Project Reality. It incentivizes realistic infantry tactics.

[@M4rcom44]

look, it's not written anywhere that gunfights have to be fun, war is not fun. the most terrible thing about reforger is that you can't hold your breath, the weapons are already inaccurate enough as it is

[@Looking4Mountains]

​@M4rcom44 what do you mean the weapons are inaccurate? If you go and practice shooting in single player you'll find that mechanically both the M16 and AKM are approximately 2 MOA accurate which is more accurate than either rack-grade rifle would be in real life.

[@M4rcom44]

If you can't catch your breath while aiming it won't be as accurate as it should be, even if you rest the gun on the surface. then I really hope that one day they will also release the AKMs which unfortunately are not present in the game at the moment Sir : )

[@Fanatic102nd]

Someone already said it here but many new and old Reforger players do not understand how to use specific weapons correctly. Jumping into a static weapon out in the open to shoot targets 200m away is a suicide regardless of wonky suppression effects. Hide your weapon, use the range advantage. People do the exact same mistake with BTRs in the game. Instead of finding a vantage point to provide support from distance to put the superior optics and range to good use, they drive up into towns where AT infantry can easily hide behind corners and sneak up from blind angles.

[@tweedyharfunkel]

It's good that developers have their own judgement and don't introduce it for everyone. Who want it can have a mod, that's easy.

[@Dev_Six]

I would like to get similar ability to driving as it is in walking, where you can adjust the max speed of your walking with the scroll of your mouse, but instead you could adjust your max speed while driving.

[@kaiorus]

i don’t really like suppression cause it forces you to just stare at the screen and not move i get that’s the whole point but it gets boring very quickly

[@caracal3892]

I don't get what you mean, suppression should make you duck away from the danger, you are not locked to remaining in position.

[@kaiorus]

@@caracal3892 yeah you have to get back and wait until they stop firing which i think is bad cause it takes control away from the player

[@rickfastly2671]

@kaiorus the other player took away your control tho, you should be punished for getting shot at, not given no suppression and a way to counter without any consequences.

[@zmmzlt6822]

If i'm BI, I would just reuse the flinch in DayZ after getting cannibal virus for suppression.

[@spuqe69]

Hehe refrogger hehe :D

[@Swisshost]

I totally agree, thats the design point of MGs in real life to suppress the enemy and let them feel fear. The only good way to do it in games, with a little weapon flinch. (RS2)

[@aaronwhite1786]

I think you definitely need a good suppression and hit system for the gun combat to be effective and realistic, at least as much as you can make it in a game, since there's no inherent fear for your life. Playing a game like Escape from Tarkov recently, one of my biggest frustrations is how often the AI can just have rounds hitting all around them and do nothing like what a real person would. Rather than seek cover when fired on or hit, they just immediately spin, instantly know the position of the shots and return accurate fire without pause. Getting hit doesn't really seem to do much to disrupt their aim, and it's entirely possible for them to headshot you while simultaneously taking a round in the chest. I know the mechanics can be overdone at times, but for artillery and machine guns to be effective there has to be some sort of mechanic to make them scarier to the player/AI than just some standard assault rifle. Otherwise those heavy systems are just heavier caliber weapons that fire slower and aren't really worth the extra effort to carry and use them.

[@mckseal]

Gday Caracal, I'd be happy to get into the mod system and figure this out (in a few weeks time). I don't like the gimmicky suppression effects, but I do like ones that encourage better gameplay. Personally I like the flinch, flinch shadow (that shows if a bullet comes really close), sharpening (from insurgency sandstorm - adrenaline!) and sight misalignment from Squad. Triggering the effect would be quite easy, but I need to fiddle around with how the sighting/aiming works to see what I can do there.

[@Lightless_124]

For me, other game modes like PVE game master, or Arma 3's Invade & Annex, benefit massively from suppression mechanics. In those scenarios, your building a story, comradery and a feeling, less so a competitive experience. Suppression therefore makes players value their strategy and team-play more, because they know that if they have suppressed the enemy properly, they're half way too success on an objective. Some of the greatest video's of Refrogger I have seen is trench clearing on WCS, where artillery is striking around a group of players. Although there is no suppression, the noise and camera shake of the blast does a fantastic job of making these players fear for their lives, and share that experience with others.

[@theplaguedoctor3283]

Unironically I've played roblox games with some insane suppression mechanics (Trench War and Horizon Blue) those are WW1 games and very basic flinches makes a whole difference but for some reason WW2 and above era games hate adding suppression when literally everyone has guns that have higher firerates and suppressing targets like those is way more important

[@SO-if3yn]

The Suppression system is amazing.

[@hansenhenry5438]

That's why I love and hate reforger so much. It is such an amazing game and there's nothing else like it, but it's also stuff like minor issues with suppression, gunplay, certain small mechanics ect. Like you said, we're 90% to the perfect game; it's an amazing foundation and execution but all it needs is some very small changes and we'd have a near perfect game imo

[@Channelterror117]

Arma 3 Ace effects are good enough. It goes to a point where the color goes away if you get suppressed by cannons. Also, there should be screen movement when explosions or heavy rounds are too close. Right now you stand right next to a BMP shooting and won't shate the ground. Hopefully that'll be changed with the LAV. But if you get shot like that in reallife you'll be disoriented. HOW DO WE SIMULATE DISORIENTATION NOW? WE DONT

[@kalleranta2260]

I'm open for a suppression system, as long as it's minimalistic.

[@matiasemanninen]

I have very mixed feelings about adding any kind of suppressing mechanics to arma reforger. I think the suppressing is not powerful mostly bc players don't value their life. If someone dies on the battlefield, he/she can just respawn from 1-2 min ride to the same battle. If players can only spawn on mob, hopely they would value their life more and actually play as a team/squad. Suppression works in the game but that needs everyone to respond to enemy contact, even If you don't see the enemy necessarily. I've seen that happening in the game, and the squad always wins.

[@StormBat]

I hate suppression effects, kills my immersion. So glad they are not going to do it!

[@generaldemestos2950]

Honestly the fact your getting shot at and hearing the crack is suppression enough, people need to stop asking for pointless additions.

[@tiberius8390]

If it's that pointless why do the immersion/realism mods add it in? Why do milsim servers have it pretty much always in their modlist? Come on.

[@generaldemestos2950]

@tiberius8390 then go get it from a mod, there's literally no point adding extra things that make no difference to the already decent combat system.

[@tiberius8390]

@@generaldemestos2950 Sure you can have everything you want with mods. That is not the issue. The issue is as caracal put it, the game is at 90% and not adding a suppression system keeps it from going to 100%. It would improve the game and make it more realistic and immersive, that's why me and others would like to have it in the base game.

[@generaldemestos2950]

@tiberius8390 Literally, the threat of being killed and having to walk 5k back to the combat zone is enough to make you keep your head down when you're taking shots. The suppression has been NAILED without even adding it. And this wouldn't make the game 100%. Theirs plenty of other features they have got in the road map that are far superior and far more worth than a hazed screen affect. It's fucking bullshit because it doesn't happen.

[@RealSeductions]

Realism and immersion is a fine line in gaming

[@Stewbe]

The problem with heavy machine guns is that people dont know how to implement them properly. You need to be outside of effective rifle range so around 400+ meters away so you have a clear advantage over standard riflemen the farther away the better. I feel like suppression effects dont really belong in mil-sim style games where you are playing as soldier already why is my soldier always acting like its his first time seeing combat and handling his weapon? Maybe if we were playing as like civilians or conscripts but im a soldier i should be able to react to incomming gunshots without defecateing my pants every time.

[@PimpCatTV]

I don’t think suppression should be default mechanic, make it a mod for more realism based servers.

[@me67galaxylife]

Based, unironically

[@urmumgey4202]

if theirs mo gamy suppression system that just shows how well the particle effects better work, I wanna see dirt flying in my face, concrete hittin my check and it bleeding yk… that fear is based on YOU, not too much id agree with on dis vid

[@cadencollier9225]

I knew they wouldn't add suppression. I agree that it would be nothing but beneficial for the game, but this is Bohemia we're talking about. I consistently rant to my friends about how Red Orchestra 2 was, and still is, ahead of its time. Vanilla Arma games have always lacked common sense mechanics, and now that it's on console they're simplifying the game rather that making it better.

[@hemogoblin69]

No suppression is the opposite of simplification. Suppression would be a no brainer if they wanted to be lazy

[@yodamorpheus3128]

@@hemogoblin69 less features = more effort How the heck does that make sense?

[@hemogoblin69]

@yodamorpheus3128 bullets making your screen blur is an effort at realism?

[@dubmeisterxd2133]

I don't want visual supression (screen bluring/shaking/getting dark) for infantry at all. squad took this way too far, and I honestly don't think it's very enjoyable. I think that impression of consequences could be achieved by making it a longer process to heal a wounded person by implementing a more complex medical system, something closer to arma 3 ace. I think the fear of needing to spend more time healing yourself (and thus more time waiting for someone to revive you) could create a psychological need to stay in cover. also, if the game had an actual bullet penetration system then this would help a lot, as you could suppress a gunner and they would fear that the house they were shooting you from is not bulletproof.

[@Profane_Pagan]

I can understand people who ask for supression effects if they play a game with a quick respawn system. But I agree with you, the degrading visual supression is not an enjoyable experience, why would we go blind? I really dislike cataract simulators. My idea for a supression effect would be an intensified/ noticable camera movement - head bob appears. IRL our brian filters out the shaking of our head when we walk-run. Head bob under supression would try to convey the sensation that our senses are under attack... Another way could be introducing some lag in wielding the weapon - the way how Operation Flashpoint used to have it on standard...

[@Suomiwimbula]

Being suppressed is not fun what a shocker, it's almost like causing discomfort in order to force repositioning or pinning them might be the whole point. I just know you don't use MG's in squad because even with its mechanics "taken way too far" its not enough, you cant suppress a single building let alone an entire forest line and if you do manage to catch someone the effects wear off in seconds. Many buildings in squad aren't actually bullet proof(and almost none against .50cal), same with terrain but everyone pretending they're OP don't actually use MG's so they don't know. People just don't want to accept the consequences of being predictable/camping same spot long enough to get caught in the enemy sights.

[@War_Economy_Enjoyer]

maybe every death makes the respawn timer go up so people will wanna stay alive then just respawning

[@Suomiwimbula]

@@War_Economy_Enjoyer Doesn't work, giving up and queuing for respawn immediately in Squad gives you long wait of up to two minutes but people playing solo often give up even if I'm ten/twenty meters away as a medic. Even just waiting in the injured state for 30 seconds gives you a near instant respawn but people would rather stare at the respawn screen for 120 seconds instead of the downed screen for 30... Instead of reworking the game for impatient people, impatient people should just go play something else.

[@me67galaxylife]

@Suomiwimbula go play squad and stop trying to make every feel like squad

[@Safis100]

Surpression is such a bad idea. Every game I've played that has surpression I have to give it a break every play cycle where I need to rest my head or something, and mind you: I play Jets and Helos regularly so its not a motion thing, its just seeing a mechanic fucking with my character and then being surpressed by AI or something and then being screamed at by some meathead where I was coordinating with another AT trooper to take out a tank to get spacing is a massive bad taste in my mouth

[@Safis100]

Basically TL;DR: Surpression Mechanics usually has ruined my taste for playing said game in long bursts. The only ones I was OK with was Battlefield, Red Orchresta, and I think thats about it.

[@yodamorpheus3128]

Unironically a skill issue, you not being able to deal with a high stress environment doesn’t mean suppression is bad.

[@Safis100]

@@yodamorpheus3128 No I can put up with high stress situlations like Aerial combat, also Aerial Combat is way more stressful as you have to use your brain and your senses more to figure out where you're getting shot at, the trajectory of the enemy, and timing countermeasures, Guns and Missiles. Compared to Infantry Combat where its a annoying chromatic Aberration effect that procs constantly where it can give me a headache due to how it phases in and out at a seizure-inducing pace.

[@Safis100]

Besides, I can do aerial combat really well where I can down squadrons, and I can kill entire squads of Opfor, I just hate how most games handle surpression Mechanics since they do graphical shit that fucks with my senses and my graphic quality. Its why I refuse to play certain ArmA 3 unit modpacks unless I can get behind it because of mods like Immerse iirc where every time you fired your gun, your screen shakes and becomes distorted, which is frustrating as fuck when you're engaging people from 500 meters away and you have friendlies next to you screaming "Where are you shooting at" despite your shots and sightlines being blatantly obvious where you're shooting at.

[@yodamorpheus3128]

@@Safis100 All you’re giving me is random anecdotes and that you have a bit of a combat temper. Have you ever considered that your eyes might just be overly sensitive?

[@Neon-gv5ou]

I think visual suppression effects in video games are both unrealistic and take away from immersion. In real combat, you wouldn’t see any of these visual distortions-what you’d actually experience are the sounds of bullets hitting nearby objects or whizzing past your ear. I get why they’re used, especially in casual games, but in more realistic titles like Arma or Squad, I feel like they just don’t belong. On top of that, these effects don’t really capture how different people react to stressful situations. Some might completely panic under fire, while others could stay calm and focused. By forcing the same suppression effect on every player, games ignore that everyone experiences fear and stress differently-it’s not a one-size-fits-all kind of thing. What really makes suppression work in games isn’t flashy effects but creating a fear of losing your in-game life. That fear can feel more real if developers focus on things like longer respawn times or making it tougher to get back into the fight. That way, the tension comes from actual consequences, not just some blurry screen or added shake. For me, the game that nailed this kind of experience best is DayZ. The tension in every firefight, knowing you could lose everything, felt way more intense than any visual effect ever could.

[@rickfastly2671]

Tunnel. Vision is very real when getting shot at. Also no one is returning accurate fire irl while getting suppressed because that’s how you die, that’s why many infantry handbooks say to reposition.

[@SonicGold34]

I dunno, I get it can be easily modded, and is easily modded, but I fear AI will suffer the most from there not having a suppression type effect against players, especially LMG and above. Which in the future with Arma 4, PVE will become a much bigger deal than it is in Reforger like it is in A3. I could see that this subject could be avoided if sound was improved, and of course bullet impact and tracer effects were as well.

[@danieldorey3920]

Not adding some kind of suppression mechanic is such a braindead decision by the developers. As many people have already said, suppression is a key part of modern military tactics. If they are trying to make a realistic military shooter/Milsim then it makes no sense to just ignore it. There are weapons whose primary purpose is to suppress. They dont even have realistic penetration so the 50 is a glorified death trap. "There are mods for that"? Yeah, I guess you could get modders to do your whole game for you too. Big L for Reforger and Arma4.

[@blackburn1489]

I surprised no one asked about 1st person only servers

[@M4rcom44]

Suppression does not exist, it is only a mental condition, you cannot simulate fear with a visual artifice. Each of us reacts to difficult situations differently.

[@rickfastly2671]

@@M4rcom44 The devs are right if you get shot at and don’t move positions or seek cover your just a giga chad.

[@ioioioioio6026]

the point of suppression is not to make your opponent forget how to aim, it's to discourage them from leaving cover

[@MrMcbear]

Supression has good intent but is seldomly executed well and even when it is, it just detracts too much from the game for the sake of "immersion" which it does not feel like at all in most games that use it. It's a cool feature the first few times experiencing it, but it quickly gets old. Trying make games hyper realistic just never works. There needs to be a balance.

[@caracal3892]

The problem I see is that there has to be a mechanical distortion of the aim otherwise machineguns will not have their realistic place in the game.

[@War_Economy_Enjoyer]

i just say death raises the kill timer

[@MarcinP2]

With hearing protection you woul barely notice.

[@henrikparsgaard9648]

Hard disagree. Suppression is a psychological phenomenon. Making death more punishing is the only way to simulate that factor and if players dont like it, ise mods are go back to COD

[@Soldierinthegarden]

I play ps5 no crossplay what gets me is how long it takes to get a bead on a target for a kill shot and how often i get oneshoted while running everything tells me they are cheatboxing and target locking because the game doesnt give you that shot unless a still target 98%of time and im gett8ng one shot wondered way too much im afraid multiplayer will soon be unplayable like the rest of gaming is because of cheats its an impossible shot im getting beaned with way to much i tested the sniper once by just respawning in and running in dodging he killed me 16 times one shot in about 4 min. Dont tell me ther not cheating because you will give yourself away as a cheater

[@seizareral]

lmao they are not going to add suppression so some casual ps5 players coming from call of duty won't cry. That's the whole reason lol.

[@JoelLinus]

No, ArmA should not have it

[@zetryk4600]

they are too scared of the casual players crying about it, i guarantee. most of the people who dislike suppression shouldnt really play milsims

[@sgtfoureyes5972]

I think the ultimate point you have made is how easy it is to take out someone laying down suppression due to no supersession system, I've racked up 80hours on PS5 and I've noticed how easy it is to eliminate people on large guns due to no supersession system. There needs to be something for it to be immersive.

[@addielramos]

Milsims should not have screen supressions at all not realistic at all peak out of corner an hope the enemy has bad aim!!!! Its up to an individual to stay under serpresion or not and risk staying down or counter attaking simple

[@RAF33Strike]

Again, nice video and grounded arguments, but it's still a subjective definition of realism going on here. If we want to be scientific about it, there's no such thing as UI helpers, tooltips, bloody vision effect or universal reaction to incoming fire in real life. Period. It's purely a gameplay mechanic which encourages suppressive fire, and the complementary defensive reactions to avoid the debuffs of that effect. What makes people flinch IRL or stressed is highly individual. You know, how if you are anticipating the toaster to pop, you'll almost always flinch, but if you don't focus on it, it happens and you don't react. As others here have mentioned, combat experience and conditioning may significantly reduce the effects of supersonic bullet cracks and nearby explosions. And even if not, your reflexes may or may not respond equally every time. However, without a suppression system, the only incentive to duck/get down is to avoid being shot and killed. In a video game, this isn't a problem because you only lose time and effort, but you keep your life. Therefore, people may react differently in the game, and rather risk their "life" for a few potshots, whereas in real life, most would try to minimize line of sight. When I was training to be a sergeant, as part of our field training we learned how to react to incoming fire. Generally speaking, the idea was to respond by establishing fire superiority ASAP to deny the enemy most of the advantages of an ambush. Thereafter, a bounding maneuver begins to either flank and defeat the enemy, or to retreat systematically to avoid being killed/pinned in a bad position. Remember that IRL, a pinned squad becomes easy prey for mortars and AGS, so you HAVE to keep firing and maneuvering. In your Jeep vs distant squad scenario, opening fire on an unsuspecting squad with the jeep like that is an extremely risky move. Why? Because you are A: Not concealed, B: Not behind cover (protection) and C: you only have a short burst of MG before you need to reload, at which point you will likely be killed fast. The better option would be to avoid contact until you are in a good firing position, as well as have more teammates (even if just the driver with an AR) prepared to fire before engaging the enemy. The situation changes drastically with armored vehicles, where those usually have powerful optics, small-arms protection and can lay down much more accurate fire. Unlike rifle bullets cracking by, overpressure from explosive weapons (backblast and high-caliber guns included) is significantly stronger and actually do have a physical effect on people. Your body will experience physical trauma such as being knocked over, overpressure, contusions and TBI. This also gives mortars, grenadiers and autocannon (HE shell) vehicles a suppressive effect. In my humble opinion, I think that vanilla ArmA reforger can live without a synthetic/forced suppression mechanic, provided that dying remains somewhat taxing (you really want to avoid it). The thing is that modders will be able to introduce this effect/mechanic, and then it becomes an optional feature (which I think is really important since everyone has their own version of what defines realism in this game). What we have learned from ArmA3, is that usually the user mods that are popular enough end up being officially introduced in some later patch/update (just look at what ACE and RHS armor mods did for Tanks DLC - the devs implemented a much improved armor modelling over vanilla). Take care and keep the discussions going!

[@contra7631]

Gotta be honest I don't really want fans of project reality,Squad,Hell let loose,Red orchestra etc . milsim gamers in Arma or give suggestions to change its gameplay or mechanics . Arma always felt unique and fun because it stayed the same for 20years . Arma Reforger plays exactly same like Operation Flashpoint from 2001 . This is why it is fun.Most milsims I have played was never fun .They were slow,sluggish,boring experience compared all arma games . And I am not joking . I am glad the devs not listening to hardcore milsim nerds like you .

[@DeadliftSpecialist]

thank god, suppression is a lame gimmick

[@zetryk4600]

horrible take

[@seizareral]

why do you think so?

[@MARPHHH]

Idea: limited suppression effect that lowers with a higher rank - granting more resistance to simulate veterancy and increased resolve.

[@blackburn1489]

omg, white reddit.. my eyes..

[@MrStrider28]

Shame really, Arma 3 had suppression though

[@milosv123344]

No suppression mechanics in a military sim, lol...the consoles really messed things up

[@hazmat2879]

Console has nothing to do with this poser

[@milosv123344]

​@ Consoles have EVERYTHING to do with the degradation of video game quality over the past 15 years. Take Battlefield 3, for example-a game that marked a significant step toward "dumbing down" what was once a complex and rewarding franchise. The shift to 4-player squads (down from 6), reducing the number of classes from 8 to 4, the removal of commander mode, no modding tools, and the introduction of DLCs in place of true expansions are just the beginning. Gameplay was simplified and streamlined to cater to console limitations, squad voice comms were absent, and the list goes on. This was in 2011, and the community saw it coming. We screamed on the EAUK forums to stop this madness, but instead of listening, EA shut the forums down entirely. That’s just one example. Shall we talk about the fate of countless other franchises that followed the same trajectory? Even zoomers-who grew up on this "dumbed-down" era of gaming-are now complaining about how shallow and simplified games have become. Let that sink in. They’re lamenting the lack of depth in games that were already stripped to the bone, requiring little more than 20 IQ to play. Consoles have consistently driven the industry toward broader, less demanding audiences, and we’re all worse off for it.

[@illie0709]

bro in real life you dont get effects when being shooted at you will hear wisseling sounds etc wich already is in arma grow up bro enjoy the game 2 years arma 4 is here you think this game is gonna be alive when thats released?

[@Xl_Fenrir_lX]

Bro aren’t old enough to know how to spell half the words you typed and you call it “shooted at” You have zero insight or experience in real life combat, hush up

[@D3LTA2]

Red orchestra 2 is the best shooter I've ever played... There is NOONE running and gunning in that game 🤌🏻 so people care for their life and act appropriately

[@StoicReaper]

I feel like they dont even know what they wanna do with this game because they keep repeating they're not bothering with making tracked vehicles so where do we go from here? They definitely should focus on the infantry gameplay then if that's the case. A suppression mechanic would be great for this game.

[@jerry6368]

arma 4

[@contra7631]

You haven't played any Arma game then