Sobel vs. Winters: Is the Band of Brothers Feud Real or Fake?

[@cainabel615]

When I got promoted, I asked my CO for advice. He told me my job was to know when to put my arms around their shoulders and when to put my foot up their rear. As the boss, you take care of your men like you would your own family. As the boss, you work for them, for your people are the ones that are going to accomplish the mission. You care for your people, you show concern, and they will walk through fire for you.

[@nihonsean]

I had a platoon who told me once "Take care of your people, and they'll take care of you."

[@williamalexander1863]

I am a Sergeant for a private undisclosed police department. My people are my family. I love them and they love me. But I am kind and fair. And they respect me to do my job and they follow orders because they know I stand with them.

[@ryanS593]

I’ve had a lot of good CO’s and a few bad. The bad were always good at getting transferred out. And one of the good I became life long friends with.

[@SMDoktorPepper]

This is a good lesson for anyone in charge of anyone. Took over for a different crew chief, with a crew I never led before, and they were shocked I would work WITH them, not just sit..and sleep apparently..while they worked.

[@commonmannn4961]

This principle holds true universally. I never served in the military, but I spent my career leading teams in various enterprises. I saw my workers as my own fingers. I would no more brook an injury to my people than I would slam my own finger in a car door. As you said, they are THE MECHANISM by which your goals are accomplished. You're job is to know them well enough to be at cause through them.

[@tomgray3804]

I love how the casting department did so well at finding actors that looked like the men that they could pass for real brothers.

[@Knight_of_NI]

Agreed

[@alyssatipton5080]

Dick Winters while touring the set pulled back the flap of one of the troop trucks and said it was like he was seeing ghosts when he saw the actors in the back of the transport

[@nunzioification]

It’s the greatest production of all time, like time travel, the casting is icing on the cake, it’s the pinnacle of historical storytelling.

[@ShockwaveZero]

@@alyssatipton5080 where did you find this info?

[@paulyokoyama7162]

Sobol recognized Winters was the better officer and would be promoted ahead of him. That's why he was so mean to him.

[@nickdavis2222]

Sobol was jealous! Also

[@rikturna]

I was a company sergeant major and my OC was the dead ringer of David Schwimmer. Both Physically and emotionally as he portrayed Sobel. My OC was the ultimate sycophant. Deadly dangerous to us. This guy was despised by the entire company. I did my best to shelter his BS decisions and aggression he had towards us. But that came to point where I stopped the OC/CSM relationship and decided that the men were my priority. I’d already seen Band Of Brothers and it literally felt like i was living the series.

[@raylast3873]

It‘s crazy that any modern military would allow someone like that to run rampant. Objectively he’s doing the enemy‘s job for them.

[@mottthehoople693]

how did you deal with the shitbag?

[@07foxmulder]

Schwimmer was fantastic in this role, historically accurate or not. Him being tricked into cutting the fence is still one of my favourite moments from the series.

[@cidien]

Ya, I was hoping he was going to cover if that was real or not. I was shocked their medics tricked him into thinking they performed an appendectomy though! That's both hilarious and evil. No way that would fly these days, lol.

[@maryvalentine9090]

Wasn’t it?! Schwimmer aced that scene 🎬! He ever so deftly portrayed a combination of embarrassment, frustration, arrogance, confusion, mounting panic, and childish anger to an absolute T. Up to that point, the series had made me REALLY dislike Sobel, but at that instant, I felt some pity for him… He had it coming, but his exposed vanity and weakness made me feel a tiny bit sorry for him. It was a real “sucks to be you“ kind of scene. 😬🫠 OH yeah, side note- “Oh that dog just ain't gon' hunt"!” is permanently part of my idiom vocabulary! 😂

[@maryvalentine9090]

@@cidien yeah that was pretty audacious… Holy mackerel! How on earth did they get away with that?!

[@johnjones_1501]

Having read the books, Schwimmer was spot on. While it is true that the real Sobel went on to be a decent military officer, it is also true that in World War 2 he was a college boy, of little athletic ability or understanding of how to be the man he wanted to be. In baseball terminology, Sobel isn't the guy with natural talent. He is the guy who was smaller and thinner than the other boys, who worked his ass off throwing a ball against the side of a barn for hours a day to get good enough to have a walk on position in a minor league team and then worked his way up. However, in World War 2, he was still in his early days. If you read the book, it is clear that he was not fit to be an infantry commander, but there are also clues that he had the potential to become a good infantry commander. Sobel barely passed his fitness test, because he struggled to do the required amount of pushups, but instead of giving up, he pushed himself, red in the face, and somehow managed to just make the cut, and that this happened in front of the company, but it was one of the times the company actually respected him for, because he didn't give up. Being reassigned as an instructor was probably not only good for the Division, but it was good for Sobel, because it gave him an opportunity to learn and develop skills that came easier to everyone else.

[@07foxmulder]

@@cidien The fence cutting did actually happen which makes it even greater. From George Luz’s Horton impersonation to cows getting out. I could be wrong but I think the only difference is it happened at night.

[@cliffright1142]

Anyone who has ever been in leadership knows that it is not easy. Most people have known Sobel types too. Dick Winters got his ultimate revenge but was gracious enough to admit that hard training is usually the most rewarding when it comes to life or the military.

[@HansJuergBangerter]

US military leadership went only down-wards from WW2 and we actually analyzed and figured what USA did in Vietnam was the worst leadership disaster as men were constantly rotated in and out units. Yes the GERMANS RESISTED a 5-7 fold supremacy in Russia and in Normandy being badly equipped and starved...US command had a hard time understanding why the GERMAN SOLDIER WAS SO MUCH BETTER THEN THE US SOLDIER .....yes its called ESPRIT DE CORPS the German officers had a band with their soldiers eating the same food sleeping in the same quarters but USA had adopted the ARISTOCRATIC BRITISH STYLE which already had miserably failed in all the Arctic and Antarctic expeditions as well as on the battle field as in Duncerk Upper class officer abandoned their troops to save their sorry hides proves. Being trained hard doesn't needs to be DENIGRATED AND CONSTANTLY PUNISHED otherwise the Swiss Reserves who beat the shit out all US and British Specialized troops during the last EDELWEISS RAID wouldn't have been the overall winner and the USA-British Special units SAS Marines Green Berets would have failed so miserably that USA was evn happy that they had finished ....and hint we Swiss trained US and British troops in Kandersteg same as Russian Spetznaz...

[@irondwarf66]

As an NCO I was often called a "Joe hugger" for my constant opposition to tyrants like Sobel. Om a related note, soldiers volunteered to pull duty with me and good leaders live giving me the endgame they expected for the day. All I asked for in return was the power to release my guys when the days work was done.

[@mbogucki1]

@@HansJuergBangerter As much as I appreciate your perspective, for the love of god, please use paragraphs. 😅

[@HansJuergBangerter]

@@irondwarf66 In military school we had a whole companie refusing order to a captain who was like Sobel. He was a weakling himself but he loved to make things much harder then they needed to be for us recruits like interdiction to refill your canteen on a 50km march since he wanted to break the speed record. I got promoted out off his companie into the commado unit(was great orienteeering runner) during a night exercice he was stupid enought to get caught by us commandos and slightly tortured= stripped to underwear and forced to make push-ups. Like I said he wasn't very strong physically and mentally and repeated the exercice is over several times, but we had orders to get info out of him and he cracked fast. I had an relative who made it to NCO in the French Foreign Legion, he didn't take the French passeport otherwise would have been made officer. Becoming an instructor in the Swiss Artillerie school he said that 50% of the Officers are useless same as managers in the industrie. WW2 German soldiers showed in Russia that starved and frozen were able to resist being outnumbered 7-1 because they were the real band of brothers+ stuck together. Wehrmacht soldiers also refused to rape and kill women+ children for this they got Ukrainians + Polish SS Sonderkommandos which hated Jews.(source Fritz Müller-Stalingrad+STALAG survivor).

[@HansJuergBangerter]

@@mbogucki1 I am almost sure that my written English is better than that of over 50% of the US High School graduates. I sadly didn't speak English before age 20 but was bilingual French-German at young age..and yes adding a few dialects in both German and French from Parisian to Cajun-Québec French and from Swiss to High German-Bavarian and Alsatian German also took some Italian.

[@tiredlawdog]

This goes back to the old saying, You don't fire the team, you fire the coach.

[@jefffrazier9889]

Died of malnutrition in a VA home. THAT is the tragedy of this story WTF

[@buddystewart2020]

Yeah, that hit me pretty hard too. wtf is right.

[@HansJuergBangerter]

seems his son who tried to correct the people that his dad was an excellent officer didn't give a damm that his dad starved to death in VA home

[@ahsuser]

@@HansJuergBangerter My thoughts exactly ... malnutrition? He may have been a butthole, but he was a veteran. Damn.

[@danieldeaseweitzelwalker]

That's a big wrong; yet, he tried to kill himself and blew out his optical nerves, and ended up in a VA home.. Where he died.. Sometimes your fate is your fault.

[@HansJuergBangerter]

@@danieldeaseweitzelwalker so he starved himself to death as he realized nobody cared fro him...and all the guys of Easy were life-long friends having great cameraderie

[@Apple2-ux8uo]

Schwimmer is a true actor to take this role after the popularity of friends.

[@yammy1000]

Got to admit it, he played it so well that I took a severe dislike to him for a while.

[@mrrocco7855]

@@yammy1000 I agree. Not a big fan of his acting in Friends but respected his work in Band of Brothers, which I believe was a great role for him. He does have some good talent.

[@dlxmarks]

It wasn't a surprise for me to see Schwimmer cast in _BoB_ like so many other people claim it was. If you pay attention to Ross, especially in the no laugh track edits of his scenes, you will notice how much that character has in common with Sobel with the same neurotic need to dominate and control the people around him.

[@stevekaczynski3793]

@@dlxmarks I agree. It's an observation I've made elsewhere. Ross is of course a fictional character but he is capable of being petty and domineering, in a *peace-time* and non-military setting. As an officer in wartime, someone like Ross might behave quite like Sobel.

[@misterrea861]

@@dlxmarks -- "We were ON. A. BREAK!" --Ross

[@erics362]

If Sobel wasn't incompetent in combat scenarios, his other undesirable leadership/personality traits probably wouldn't have resulted in his involuntary transfer from Easy Company.

[@raylast3873]

Nah man, starting an out-of-control feud in his own unit against his best officer is almost certainly what got him removed. And the traits it exhibits are probably also worse for an army than being a shitty combat leader. It‘s one thing to be overly harsh. But a leader who can‘t play ball with others, can‘t take advice and makes enemies out of his entire company is catastrophic for an army in every way imaginable. Being a shitty combat leader is not catastrophic in the same way if you‘re smart enough. Just let your XO and the platoon leaders advise you on the best course of action and you‘ll mostly be fine. There were actually plenty of green officers who had to do this exact thing when placed in charge of an experienced combat unit; which happened all the time. Only in combination with terrible interpersonal skills does poor combat leadership become catastrophic. In fact, those traits exhibited by Sobel are probably the main reason he was also a terrible combat leader. Someone smarter would have been able to take advice and make better decisions based on that. But this sort of out-of-control tyrantism risks rendering a military formation nonfunctional without ever encountering the enemy. By doing that you guarantee everyone is working against you all the time, which means they‘re not working against the enemy but rather doing his job for him. A house divided itself cannot stand, and that‘s before the Germans even come into it.

[@erics362]

@@raylast3873 I kind of agree with your point. But I felt that his senior nco's took that stand mostly because they feared that Sobel would get them killed in combat without the strong second in command he was trying to punish. But U definitely get your point 👉.

[@rossjohnson1872]

Sobel was a Chicago city boy, lost in the woods. He came of age during the worst of the Depression. Social conditions were desperately self serving. My Dad was in a military academy Chicago a few years later, from age 7 to 16 south side in overlapping years. Every boy for himself. Poor Sobel was all alone tasked with creating a family.

[@tinman3586]

Sobel had a tough life at the end. Damn. Poor bastard.

[@wirelessone2986]

Amen it broke my heart.. he did a great job and needed to forgive and calm down and he would have been fine...and never did...as in EVER...dang hard

[@TroyGlaus-yv2yb]

When I was promoted on my job. My old team which was now my new team. Tried to throw me a pizza party in celebration. I allowed them to do it but I insisted on paying for the pizza. My boss asked me why I did that. “ with my promotion I got a very large increase in my pay, I was in their shoes last week. They don’t make a lot of money. I will never put myself in a position to take from these people.” Later I watched the series Band of Brothers. In one scene Then Captain Winters is scolding Lieutenant Buck Compton for shooting dice with his men. He said “Never put yourself in a position to take from your men.” I learned that trick during my enlistment with the Army. It was told to me when I was promoted to Platoon Sargent by my First Sergeant. It was one of the most important things I learned about leadership. I have always used it in my my civilian career as well. Now I know where that saying came from.

[@vaughanjones5933]

An important feature of generosity is allowing others to show generosity to you. You can repay with your own act later but don't rob people of the blessing of being generous as being denied can feel demeaning to those who wanted to show you kindness.

[@allenjenkins7947]

Regardless of your feelings towards Sobel, I find it disturbing that someone could die of malnutrition in a Veterans home.

[@NatoBro]

They can't make you eat.

[@FloridaManMatty]

You’d be horrified at the condition of VA nursing homes up to the early 2000s. I have ZERO doubt Sobel was neglected in his later years. He was an inept combat leader. He was best utilized as a logistics officer.

[@stevekaczynski3793]

A rundown one as well, it seems. "Thank you for your service" doesn't always count for much...

[@ppumpkin3282]

It was a delayed fragging.

[@Owlsnestranch]

The way our veterans are treated does make me angry. No matter who. Our government has no problem sending people to war for their profit, but tosses them away like trash when they are done.

[@0ldb1ll]

Nothing welds teams together than having a common object to hate. Sobel died in old age of malnutrition.

[@nyquildays]

That and drinkin' together.

[@SoloRenegade]

No it doesn't. it tears amazing teams apart. It crushes moral, breaks down discipline, destroys motivation and performance. it gets people killed. people start giving up and doing the bare minimum. Sobel is contemptable in every way. I've served under too many like in in training and in actual combat. people like him are evil. He held grudges, was a cruel and sadistic tyrant who knowingly and intentionally tried to hurt people, and then held a grudge about it the rest of his life.

[@garywheeler7039]

I suspect that in 1970 his sons could have even been anti war and anti army. During the Vietnam conflict and the social reaction to it of young people at that time. And that Sobel was a diehard black and white right wing asshole. And maybe that is how their family disintegrated. And caused him to put a level gun to his temple and take out his optic nerves. What a shame that some people cannot adapt.

[@mickryan2450]

Well done

[@BobbyEdwards-bu9lx]

"He would even scold them for a name he didn't like..." Malarkey: um....

[@TesseRact7228]

One of the few "box sets" that I have EVER purchased is "Band of Brothers".

[@nursesteve2004]

I have always wondered if COL Sink ever acknowledged that Sobel was going to be a disaster in combat even though he was a good trainer, and that transferring him out was definitely called for.

[@africanpenguin3282]

Sometimes you need a real reason to remove someone and hope something comes up early. Though it's also hard to focus on every matter at that position. He probably was aware of discontent towards Sobel, but not probably the full extent of the issue until the "mutiny".

[@vipergtsmre]

I'm no Schwimmer fan, but he was amazing on this series

[@abubaca2683]

I'm surprised to learn he jumped and did a job. Good on him. Some people cannot handle leadership.

[@mickryan2450]

Well said

[@cmphighpower]

He was the type of guy who would get fragged in combat

[@hughbondurant2730]

Yep

[@j.dunlop8295]

Chicken shit in the military, it's harping on things not helpful to the group effort!

[@mottthehoople693]

except he wasn't .. fragging is only limited to americans with bad training..

[@ThaiLifeChronicles]

As a retired Sergeant First Class, I can say that discipline and fitness are crucial for survival, but it seems Sobel had no business leading troops. Leadership in the Army is all about purpose, direction, and motivation-if you understand what your troops need, they’ll follow you anywhere. Sobel lacked this, which is why Winters excelled as a leader. The most tragic part of Sobel’s story is how his life ended. After attempting suicide in 1970, he was left blind and spent the last 17 years of his life in a VA facility in Waukegan, Illinois, where he died from malnutrition in 1987. No memorial service was held for him. It’s a heartbreaking end for any veteran.

[@terryeaster1]

I did basic at fort Sill in 1987. I am still yet to admire someone more than drill sergeant Johnson. F battery 1/19 FA 4th platoon

[@FmlyRat]

I served in the United States Army 1969 - 1971. There was a Lieutenant in 2nd Company who just came from West Point. He was a horrible officer and person. I tried to talk with him about his attitude. He told me that he was going to file charges against me for disrespecting a fellow Officer. I smirked at him and walked away. A few months later, his company returned from a mission, but he didn't return and was reported missing. A search mission was sent out to fiend him. He was never found. An investigation was made resulting as an M.I.A. classification. Yes he served, but all those that knew him could care less. To this day, nobody knows if it was enemy fire or friendly fire. Attitude can add to different results in life.

[@maryvalentine9090]

Wow… that’s intense! He really must’ve been a horrible man. I have five older brothers, four of them served in the United States Navy during the Cold War and Vietnam era. And the youngest of that four was a surface and underwater sonar technician. He served on the USS towers and patrolled the gulf of Tonkin. Some of his activity during those deployments consisted of special teams that went in country to rescue down US pilots. All of them were well respected so I am assuming they were fair leaders and servicemen.

[@frankphillips7436]

In my opinion, Sobel was a perfect example of being very good at some things and not other things. He made his soldiers as strong as they needed to be. People talk about Sobel being “chicken shit”. Meaning he was unfair and petty. No German they faced was a “kind” as Sobel. Say what you will but, if you go into war with an expectation of fair play, you are not going to be psychologically ready. Why are Navy SEAL’s treated so poorly during training?

[@johnhansen8272]

If you’re quoting Ambrose, you’re batting.500

[@ncwoodworker]

Yes. That’s what I hear.

[@07foxmulder]

Clearly I’m out of the loop because I don’t know what you mean lol Batting .500 is an incredible stat but I’ve read that Ambrose wasn’t known for his historical accuracy…

[@dustinandtarynwolfe5540]

​@@07foxmulderI agree the statement is ambiguous to say the least

[@johnhansen8272]

@@07foxmulder your instincts are correct . .500 is 50% of the time as a historian you are wrong or made it up to save time. History isn’t baseball. The standard in history is 100% accurate or don’t write it down.

[@CasbahD]

Sad the way Sobel story ended. Regardless of facts presented here, he served our country. He deserves respect.

[@lcaceci43]

Sobel was a jerk!

[@Dave-ll6ei]

@@lcaceci43he may be a jerk but he was a veteran and a member of the greatest generation and I thank him for that.

[@SoloRenegade]

Sobel was a cruel, sadistic, tyrant. I've served under too many like him before. They are terrible officers, terrible people, and they deserve contempt for their actions and behaviors. Actions have consequences.

[@SoloRenegade]

@@Dave-ll6ei NO! Hitler, Stalin, and others were of that era too. Murderers and rapists were part of the Greatest Generation too. The damage bad leadership causes to military units cannot be understated. I've lived it for real. People die becasue of these tyrants. People were abused by these tyrants. Being born as part fo a collective period in time does not absolve someone of their bad deeds.

[@Dave-ll6ei]

@@SoloRenegade my father was part of that greatest generation. He served under Patton in 3rd Army. His outfit was one of the first to liberate Buchenwald. I also worked a long career with both men and women of that generation. The thing they had in common was they came home went to work and started families. They didn’t whine about what they went through or who they had to take orders from. They were called the greatest generation for a reason.

[@wckvn]

When I was a specialist I had to carry a supply duties for entire HHC company during our Premob to Afghanistan. When we were in the field our battalion commander took 2 MREs and said that he will sign for them later. In the evening he refused to sign the roster claiming that he knows nothing about those MREs. I tried to remind him that he took them earlier that day but he got irritated and told me to “go away”. First thing I’ve done, I came back to the supply cage and made sure that every single MRE is accounted for. I had a box with extras (people sign for them but sometimes don’t take them). So, next morning BN commander with CSM came to do an inspection personally. They counted every single MRE and a signature on the roster. I never trusted that guy ever. What kind of LTC would pick a fight with a Specialist over an MRE?

[@maryvalentine9090]

😮

[@natedowns5]

The soldiers from easy company extremely exaggerated the series of band of brothers. Sobel was a compentent trainer which is why alot of easy's company men survived the war. The Marines would have love Sobel

[@bobrivett7645]

I am marine i served from 1977 to 1983. Thank God i never had to serve with someone like Cpt. Sobel.

[@kennethsnider3456]

I kind of feel bad for Sobel now. Thanks for humanizing him.

[@thegadflygang5381]

He was a toolbag No right to have the rank

[@stevekaczynski3793]

@@thegadflygang5381 Maybe, maybe not. With a vastly expanded armed forces they would need a lot of officers and inevitably their quality would vary.

[@thegadflygang5381]

@stevekaczynski3793 without going into it too much and getting banned I imagine Sobel being "different" in terms of ethnicity/religion than 9999 out of 10000 other troops made him resentful and overcompensate Being an outsider can go two ways. You work to show you're one of the guys or you grow more and more spiteful. Sobel took the second option I say this because I went to Catholic school and had a "Sobel" in my grade. I liked him. Funny, wiseass, quick witted. So we bonded. But everyone else hated him because he made himself an outsider Who knows maybe you're right and down deep hes alright. He certainly looks like a guy who would get bullied as a kid and grow up angry

[@DanielGonzalez-vj4dg]

He left his family. Nothing to be sorry about.

[@The_Red_Rder]

I don't.

[@crashburn3292]

David Schwimmer did a hell of a job. I don't ever remember thinking, "Hey, it's Ross Geller playing soldier." He was totally believable in the part of Capt Sobel, and the scene where Maj. Winters says, "Captain Sobel. Captain Sobel. We salute the rank, not the man" is one of the best scenes in the series.

[@danieldeaseweitzelwalker]

It's been said that those beneath him hated him, but they did respect him, retrospectively; and noted that, if not for his belligerent training methods, many of them would have not survived the war. He made them tough enough to make it. That's the best thing they can say about Sobel.

[@darthcheney7447]

It's criminal how the VA treated Sobel regardless of what happened years ago.

[@JAmediaUK]

That was my thought too. Despite his poor abilities as a commander, he turned up and went to war, doing his best as he saw it. No one deserves to die of malnutrition in a developed country.

[@darthcheney7447]

@@JAmediaUK Yah, it's even worse then that. The abuse against Vets by the VA isn't new and rather endemic. Old facilities with outdated medical equipment along with poor pay amongst the medical staff and you get poor quality staff. I work at a major Dental School in the US and I am very aware of the high cost of education.

[@JAmediaUK]

@@darthcheney7447 Fortunately I am in the UK where we have the National Health Service (NHS) as it is a state system it isn't run for profit. Just good medicine. So it costs a LOT less for better outcomes. Though it isn't perfect. However, like the US, we also have the problems of many vets who have been in serious combat not fitting back into society well and higher than average ending up homless.

[@slappy8941]

​@@darthcheney7447I agree, but then and than are different words with different meanings.

[@ikiruyamamoto1050]

@Darth You have NO basis for that conclusion. You're SPECULATING based on ZERO info. Dying of malnutrition is A LOT more common than you think. When the elderly give up, they often stop eating....and waste away. And you aren't going to force feed an elderly person who is ready to die.

[@NateGerardRealEstateTeam]

He shot himself soon after I was born and died soon after I went away to college. That’s a long time to languish. For me, the lesson here is that you have a choice on how you present yourself to the world. May all members of Easy rest in peace whether they died in the 40’s or more recently.

[@shouldhavedonebetter]

He languished in a crap-hole VA nursing facility and died of malnutrition. He jumped on D-Day - and took out a German machine-gun nest. He retired a Lt. Col.. Purple Heart, Bronze Star. His family rejected him because he took a Catholic wife. He fought with his children since he objected to their vehement anti-Vietnam War stance. Rest in Peace Lt. Col. Sobel - you were unfairly done very dirty.

[@townsville69]

"He did not impress me as a battlefield soldier". Epic levels of polite savagery.

[@TheTole-l5c]

Supremely excellent video, this brings some peace to my mind as I wondered about Sobel's family's response to the series. Thanks for that. Cheers!

[@DanielGonzalez-vj4dg]

Sorry but I don’t pity the fate of a man who abandons his children.

[@Harldin]

Sobel was a boss, Winters was a leader, big difference.

[@thisoldman7142]

Love the series, I’ve watched it several times. Thank you for the video. I appreciate the time that it must have taken.

[@mottthehoople693]

music makes me cry every time....

[@peartree8338]

When I was attending a squad leader course in the Swedish home guard I had a captain who shared Sobels attitude towards leadership. He concluded after the course that he thought that I wasn't yelling enough orders to my fellow grown up men and that he thought I lacked the qualities of a leader. Today I work with children on the spectrum and most often ADHD and in their words I'm simply the best. So I guess that old fart just as Sobel didn't know shit about leadership.

[@enak413]

It was rough on the men having Ross Geller as their company commander ... but at least he saw to it they were well trained . They would have been all ate up if they were led by Joey or Chandler . " My God ! Could this training manual BE any more tedious . " " Aye - oh ... This spaghetti ain't nothin' like what my mudder makes . We gotta stop everything and fix the chow hall right now. "

[@jimmaurer8361]

"PIVOT!!"

[@petertorres3192]

In as much as I take the story of "Band of Brothers" to be true, especially regarding the part referring to Captain Sobel, I still can't help having sentiments of compassion for Sobel. I feel, definitely as an outsider, that he made his bed and that the justice of time was served. But no one ever really knows what demons a man carries with him in his walk through life. God bless him still. He did, for good or ill, serve along side of The Greatest Generation.

[@petertorres3192]

And Schwimmer is a GREAT actor. Period.

[@ericturner2477]

When I was watching the series, I was thinking "didn't these guys realize that Sobel being tough on them is what made them the best?!" Very interesting to hear that they did understand that. It's also a huge credit to the makers of the series for how they accurately portrayed that aspect of it.

[@lifeisgood3589]

After all that we found out about Sobel in the video It broke my heart to hear what happened to him in the end .....

[@HansJuergBangerter]

so his son tried to fix his reputation but didn't give a damm his dad starved to death in a VA home

[@cidien]

@@HansJuergBangerter Do you know that for sure, or are you making assumptions? You can't (easily) force someone to eat, and you shouldn't if they want to pass on. Dude was old and blind for over a decade. It's not cruel to let them go if they want to go. It IS cruel and extremely selfish to force their hellish existence to continue though.

[@HansJuergBangerter]

@@cidien my aunt, a certified nurse was doing palliative care are at patients domiciles, she had patients in final stage who as grown 6 foot men only weighted around 70 lb when they died. In one hospital in Zurich even 40 yearrs ago was customary only giving water to quasi brain-dead patients...and you could make your will not being connected to machines getting kept alive... so they would let you die in dignity.when you weren't able to take decisions anymore...many people let themselves die...actually espcially old inuits simply wandered outside in the winter and let themselves freeze to death...as you simply fall asleep...Fritz a Stalingrad survivor told me that his comrades who froze to death all smiled ( he was as an 18 year old sent to Russia and stayed there 9 years, 5 as guest of Stalin)

[@mottthehoople693]

@@HansJuergBangerter why would someone in a VA home be allowed to starve? Pretty poor form.The military should look after all Vets

[@HansJuergBangerter]

@@mottthehoople693 In 1970, Sobel shot himself in the head with a small-caliber pistol in an attempted suicide.[28] The bullet entered his left temple, severing his optic nerves and rendering him blind.[28] Soon afterward, he began living at a Veterans Administration assisted-living facility in Waukegan, Illinois, where he died on September 30, 1987;[2] the death certificate listed malnutrition as the cause of death.[28] No memorial service was held.[28] Legacy

[@ryankelly369]

Fully aware of what he was doing? I understand his family defending him through thick-and-thin, but come on! Sobel was fundamentally dishonest! To me, that seems like a dangerous line to cross when you're about to lead men into combat...

[@hectorcoria3650]

WOW!!! Winters earned and deserved that respect!!!

[@tonylittle8634]

The one thing I noticed that is never discussed….that being 1st SGT Evans. That position has a lot of influence to the CO of any unit. I suspect Evans added fuel to Sobels flawed personality.

[@johnhadley7715]

Never, never, EVER cross your top-kick.

[@dlxmarks]

In his memoir, Donald Malarkey had the opinion that Sobel and Evans were a bad combination with each encouraging the negative behaviors of the other. Evans also did not participate in the mass resignation of Easy Company NCOs.

[@laidoffjournalist]

My father was also in WW2. He came back different.

[@EricEasterling-o6r]

May God bless your father and seat him on his right. May God bless your father's family and you.

[@charleslesky2932]

Who in the military doesn't like their CO. Every member of Easy company has said, It was Sobel who brought them together and came them a Brotherhood.

[@Revup1]

I have every sympathy for Herbert Sobel. There are warriors who are born to lead, but they are rare. Most are 'normal' folk thrust into a role, especially in wartime, that they do their best to fulfil. It is clear that Sobel was playing a role. His son is correct, this is the way Sobel thought he should be, but it was not his natural persona. In playing the role he thought he should, Sobel then suffered the consequences for the rest of his life. His 'failure' or at least the lack of recogniton and the shame of it, weighed heavily. I've known many like Sobel, who struggle because they behaved in a way they thought was right in the worst of circumstances, but for whom the outcome was unpalitable. They are morally compromised, unable to reconcile what they did with who they are. They are no less warriors than those who were 'born' to it!

[@Sebastianfnc]

The resemblance between the real Lt Winters and thé casted one are remarkable great series close to the truth it seems # let us never forget what these man and the victims of WW2 went trough to give us the freedom’s we cherish to day……

[@Taquito_Rat]

The thing that bugs me about Sobel is the disdain modern people have for him. He was training men for a World War, I can't imagine how I would behave with that responsibility. These men rely on you to prepare them. We have the hindsight to know why he was wrong. The men who trained under him even said he helped them. He was a petty tyrant, but he doesn't need our hate.

[@ryanbauer3680]

There's being a hardass then there's a petty asshole running things like hardass. The difference being the hardass will lighten up if the situation calls for it or they see they've gone too far. The petty asshole will only do it if it benefits them.

[@Taquito_Rat]

@ryanbauer3680 I know, but it's really really easy to look back at him and see how wrong he was. He didn't have our hindsight.

[@ac1646]

Who said anything about 'hate'?

[@stormryder4305]

Well he's wrong for holding grudges and intentionally harm others.

[@zenistfpv]

His son's defense is admirable but Sobel's utter lack of judgement during the field exercise belies his claim that his father "knew what he was doing" he was a petty tyrant well deserving of the infamy of his name in both military and civilian circles due to BoB's portrayal

[@Ray-dv3nz]

I truly don’t want to be disrespectful and I did watch the Band of Brothers series to the point where I could almost recite all 10 episodes word for word. In the show I despised Captain Sobel, potrayed so well by David Schwimmer as incompetent. Only now I find out that Sobel put a gun to his own head and couldn’t even get that right. I was heartbroken when in 2012, I read an article in a newspaper here in Australia , that Major Dick Winters had died. I will never forget that, in answering his grandsons question,” Grandpa, were you a hero in the war ? “, he replied. “ No. But I served with a Company of heroes. “ RIP Major.🙏🏻🇺🇸

[@wisemanwalkingdowntheroad4275]

Though not the military I worked a job where we had a supervisor who was disrespectful to everyone and I mean everyone. If it weren't for upper management blindly protecting him he would been fired a long time ago in spite earning numerous complaints filled with our union against him. He worked for around thirty years in the company and never had any friends, was never married or known to have a girlfriend. When he finally retired people were elated that he finally left. A couple years later he had a massive heart attack and went blind from uncontrolled unchecked diabetes in spite of our job having a great medical coverage because he hadn't bother to see a doctor in many years and everyone cursing his name and hoping he would be burning in Hell. I am thankful I will have friends and family that loves me dearly and will miss me when my time comes. You reap what you sow.

[@davedee4382]

Swimmer should have gotten an award for that. He was amazing. He was so believable!

[@armynurse1510]

Retired Major and ER nurse.....leading Soldiers was, by far, the best part of my career......miss that SOOO much. Tryin to find the equivalent as a civilian........not easy

[@velvetine74]

Wow, did no know about Sobel's attempted suicide and blindness. I hope he found some peace in the end and was able to let go of it all. It's hard to know how to feel about the man. What would he have made of the show if he had lived to see it? Would he have become more bitter or would he have had an epiphany.

[@TerryKeever]

By the time he brcame estranged with his family, there's no chance of any recognition of his errors dealing with the men. He would have only remembered his great work training them not realizing their hatred of him was a big factor in bringing them to the point of being a close knit company of well trained warriors.

[@Alex-oy6wb]

Books like Band of Brothers, Ender’s Game, and Starship Troopers highlight the bonds/skills/development formed during adverse military training, sometimes resulting in effective combat individuals/groups. In retrospect, sounds like Lt Sobol was an invaluable tool to the survival of many men.

[@r.b.ratieta6111]

I always felt that Winters knew the court martial would catch the attention of high command. It was just months before the invasion, high stress, everyone struggling to get all the equipment to England without letting their plans leak to the Germans, food, housing, supplies being tight, constant training and planning -- Suddenly a court martial appears on Strayer's desk. One can only imagine Strayer saying, "What the hell is THIS about?" He reads it and finds out it's a dispute over latrine inspections between two officers. "Really?! At a time like this?" I think Winters was smart enough to know that high command would demand to know why the hell someone is requesting a court martial over latrine inspection when there are clearly more pressing issues at hand, and Sobel would refuse to back down from his word. Big can of worms.

[@BrianMax]

Herbert Sobel lived a tragic life, much of it his own doing.

[@shouldhavedonebetter]

Much of it not his own doing. His family rejected his Catholic wife, and his children took a vehemently anti-Vietnam War stance - which he objected to. BoB did him very dirty. He retired a Lt. Col. - jumped on D-Day, and was heroic in combat, taking out a German machine gun nest with grenades. Was severely neglected in some crap-hole V. A. nursing home.

[@khikhowhippet324]

hands down the best wwwii series, the acting was superb, thank you for your service men of Easy Co.

[@ryant1506]

Sobel is a fantastic lesson of a gifted supervisor made management

[@Rubinicus]

David Swimmer seemed quite in shape on BoB

[@don_5283]

No question, the writers created a character which Schwimmer brought to life expertly, that resonates with a lot of people and their experiences. However, I think it's critically important to keep in mind, when you're seeing the character portrayed on the screen, or as written in the book, you're seeing a subjective representation of a real person. Herbert Sobel the man deserves the recognition that the popular image handed to us in both the show and book were composed essentially exclusively from the memories of the men in the company who most disliked him. It bears remembering that every one of us, as we go through life, will touch the lives of others, and some of those will remember us as a Winters, and some will remember us as a Sobel, and which a person talks to can seriously shape the way we are perceived. It may be that Sobel was exactly as depicted, but parts of that depiction just don't ring true given other parts of the historical record. He did in fact lead men in combat, and did in fact win decorations in combat, and I know of no deficiency that he demonstrated in his combat leadership. The men he trained ended up disproportionately decorated and promoted, and grudgingly agreed that they owed a portion of that success to his training. I'd like to offer a different possible interpretation of Sobel, that I think rings more true to reality. Start with a guy who is obviously intelligent and educated, graduating from university at a time when that was a rarity. He went to a military high school, and he's spent several years as a Reservist, as a commissioned officer, trained in the doctrines of the interwar period. He's 30, he's grown up, he's been shaped by a doctrine that is heavy on strong discipline, and he's probably had to fight that little bit harder at everything all his life because he's Jewish, at a time when that was still something that could easily get you excluded from things. Now, he's put in charge of a bunch of immature guys in their early 20s, and told to train them to fight in a war. Broadly, none of these guys had much previous military experience. Most were civilians volunteering, who had been through basic infantry training, but who largely didn't have an ingrained military mentality. Sobel wants to strive for excellence, wants to make sure his men are hardened and prepared for whatever is coming, and so he pushes them to be better than they are, and better than they think they can be. And of course, what happens when you really push a bunch of kids in their late teens and early 20s? A lot of them will buck. Get resentful. Get mad at the guy trying to push them. Just look at the long and well-established tradition of kids bucking against their parents' lessons, only to turn around and raise kids that they just can't convince to put in a little work and get a decent job. Figure Sobel is a little socially awkward, not a great communicator, and that just amplifies the friction. Add in that he's a Jew, and that becomes a focal point for all the immature discontent working its way out of these men he's training. Some of these men will respond by playing little pranks. Like, for instance, deliberately misplacing maps and navigational tools, to sabotage him. Perhaps that goes some way to explain why he's remembered as having a terrible sense of direction? I've known some guys who just could not read a map, but when dealing with someone as obviously intelligent and educated as Sobel, I'd find it easier to believe he gets remembered as totally inept with directions because there was no map for him to read, than because he just couldn't make sense of it. Playing those kinds of games is likely to only incite him to turn up the heat further, which I think is understandable, and I also think it's understandable that such a connection wouldn't necessarily be discussed extensively in the memoirs of the guys who most disliked him. It's easy to see how those guys in that situation could latch on to Winters as "the good guy," which I fully believe that he was. Then, if Sobel lacks the communication skills or charisma to sell the guys on the value of what he's trying to accomplish, it can all just start to get away from him. It becomes a big feedback loop that ends up with everyone upset... But after the fact, everyone looks back and begrudgingly acknowledges that what Sobel was trying to do actually kept them alive and made them better men. It's too bad they couldn't see it at the time, or it all could have worked out even better, perhaps. It's that catch-22 of maturity: The time when it's most valuable is when you most lack it. A company is 100 or 150 men or so at any given time, and Ambrose leaned heavily on the memoirs of a relatively small circle of friends within the unit in the crafting of his book. It's a shame, because without exploring a wider array of perspectives, it's impossible to ever really know what Sobel was *really* like. All we have is a near-caricature, that this one circle all agrees on, more or less, which may indeed be true, but which is deeply lacking in substantiation and corroboration, and which has a few very obvious glitches that reveal that all may not be as it seems. Lacking a more complete picture, I'd ask anyone still reading to put themselves in each of the seats in the situation, Sobel's and Winters's and the several other men in the unit, and ask themselves what they think is most realistic, and keep a little space to remember the depiction we see on the screen is an impressionistic one, not a documentarian one.

[@maryvalentine9090]

I do not understand how Sobel starved to death at a veterans care facility. WHAT in the serious hell happened there? Did he refuse to eat or were they deliberately starving him? Does anybody know the answer to that because I’ve heard this story over and over again and I’m baffled and horrified by it. However obnoxious of a man that he was, he still was a human being and the thought of him starving to death horrifies me. Anyone who can offer more information about that I would really appreciate.

[@petersmith7126]

I find the notion of Sobels brutality being the reason for Easy Company being good.....many, many units were equally as good and as well trained with officers who didn't act like arseholes

[@brandonhalliday2029]

Soble sounds like he was absolutely consistent in and out of the military. All that training, and he still couldn't figure out how to use a gun.

[@kolasom]

Well done video, even giving Sobel the small credit he was due for Easy Company's success.

[@lanzroco2]

Sobel's story was a sad one. I wish he got more help. And dying from malnutrition in a VA home sounds like you're living in Africa. Thats the real tragedy

[@Zamiroh]

I have said it before, and ill say it again, no veteran should have to suffer his fate. He was a horrible leader, and a real pos, but i wouldnt wish that type of suffering on anyone.

[@jk-76]

They couldn't force feed him. He was a very stubborn man.

[@MrNaKillshots]

Genuinely fascinating. Better than fiction.

[@armyvet8279]

That was a lesson for life in general. Think hard...

[@irondwarf66]

The biggest tell about sober is that he failed to commit suicide with a gun correctly even after being in combat.

[@kencrouch668]

Anyone read Parachute Infantry by David Kenyon Webster? Webster was depicted in Band of Brothers- he was an original Toccoa man and was in Normandy. Survived that and was in Market Garden and was wounded in that battle. Because of his wounds he was not in The Bulge battle. Webster attended Harvard and wanted nothing to do with leadership, Ambrose found out that Webster had taken lots of notes and read the notes and got Webster's widow to publish the notes. Interestingly enough most of Easy company men did not like Webster.

[@TheHoldenmcgroin]

Holy shit, Sobel may have been an asshole, but that is NO way for a Veteran to go....

[@sr71sr71]

Man, I know he did a lot wrong, but thats a sad end to hear about his late life. Some people just should not be in leadership positions. They may be amazing people elsewhere but, leading takes a different quality.

[@michaelhenry6712]

Major Winter wrote two books and goes into detail about his hatred for Sobel.

[@billmulkins3217]

They may not have liked him but it gave them focus on who/what to blame when the stuff hit the fan.

[@contention100]

I read the story of Sobel and what happened to him after the war. A long sad ending to his life.

[@johnjon1823]

Sobel in my estimation, based on his behavior and descriptions, suffered from a form of anxiety disorder. He needed to plan and be perfect in order to alay his disorder. That would explain why he was no good at spontaneous issues, they need for making quick decisions and analyzing in the moment would be overwhelming to his make-up, because there was not enough time to plan and organize for him, so he would be overwhelmed. Probably he did not know of his own condition. He was labeled for how he behaved, which was, I think, a result of mental dysfunction. He would be a "good" at training in the sense of being a perfectionist, but there were likely other personality issues as well. So, I think, for sure, he had some kind of anxiety disorder, and probably some other mental and emotional issues as well. It may well be, that had it not been for the war, none of his issues would have surfaced into his life, or at least to a much lesser extent, since the pressure of his job added to his issues and eroded his coping ability. Sometimes bastards are bastards for a reason not of their own making, nonetheless, bastards they are if you deal with them. It is a broken humanity we have and it got more broken with every war. War heals nothing, it is ugly.

[@clarabarton8350]

They were all heroes. People forget that an officer is not your friend, that is the job of the NCOs.

[@Nibitor9353]

After reading the book and watching videos like this, I got convinced that Sobel was ever worse IRL than how was portrayed in BoB. He was mostly incompetent when in came to tactics, situational awareness and decision-making. If he found nothing of relevance to criticise his soldiers for, he'd ridicule them for their appearance, like having a big nose or ugly ears. He was ridiculously strict and unfair, constantly looking for any excuse to punish whoever he didn't like. That's simply not how you inspire your men or gain their respect. Winters, OTOH, was an excellent officer who lead by example and really got the best out of his men.

[@cyclone8974]

Lieutenant Norman Dike was nowhere near as bad as he was portrayed in the series. If they would lie about that why not lie about anything else.

[@mixodorians12]

Couldn't read a map? I could do that at 13 in Air Cadets. I cannot believe this.

[@RobertLupo]

Nice job, thank you.

[@KibuFox]

Something worth mentioning here, that isn't often covered. When Sobel was training the men in Toccoa, he was a second Lieutenant himself. He had only completed officer training a few months prior to his appointment to Easy Company. Sobel didn't get promoted to Captain until shortly after the company reached the UK. The promotion coming because of command wanting to reward him for his expert training of the men. So when Winters is writing about the "Captain", this dates the letter as having happened in the UK, not in Toccoa as the video presents. Once the men reached the UK, and Sobel was promoted, he delegated the censorship of the mail off to Winters. So, the letter wouldn't have ever been seen by Sobel at that point, as Winters was handling that aspect of duties. Remember, when the court martial happens, Winters notes that he had been censoring the mail as instructed by Sobel, prior to the latrine inspection. Winters himself, and military historians suggest that the reason that Sobel disliked Winters, is because unlike Sobel, who was enlisted as an officer and went straight to officer training; Winters was given a field promotion by the Colonel, and wasn't required to attend officer training. In that regard, Winters wasn't up to the same "standard" that officers were expected to have, or at least, as was presented in officer training early in the war. Keep in mind, in the early stages of the war, traditions from WW1, and the inter-war period were still in effect; and young officers were trained that they were 'gentlemen', and thus of a higher station and class than their subordinates. Essentially saying they were "better than" the soldiers under their command. So, to have a young soldier suddenly promoted on the spot to an officer, went against everything that Sobel had been taught in officer training.

[@fireshack6485]

This is incorrect. In April 1942, four months after the United States entered World War II, Winters was selected to attend Officer Candidate School (OCS) at Fort Benning, Georgia. He met Lewis Nixon there and graduated as a 2nd Lieutenant on July 2, 1942. This was prior to Winters even being assigned to the 101st and the 506th. Sobel had been in the prewar Army Reserve, promoting to 1st Lieutenant and being reclassified as Active Duty prior to the declaration of the war in December, 1941.

[@thebigmon]

Winters enlisted in the Army and was then selected for OCS since he was a college graduate and scored high on the entrance exam. Winters is an OCS graduate. This is according to Winters on memoir.

[@wolfhound45]

Very well done.

[@williamglaser6577]

Thanks, great info.

[@BarryHull]

I didn't know how Sobel met his demise. Vilian or not, it's a tragedy.

[@maryannweldin4633]

Sad but predictable ending for him

[@Bleatmop]

Okay, fine. I'll watch Band of Brothers again.

[@superkjell]

Sobel isn't the antagonist of Band of Brothers. There are a whole bunch of Germans in those positions.

[@gringogreen4719]

Sobel would have been fragged if he was actually in the field. Or he would have been killed before he landed in Normandy. Either way he wouldn't have lasted long.

[@MichaelSisley-fw3xr]

You lead men. You manage machines and systems. A good leader leads by example, from the front. A leader is respected by the men by his character, or he is not, because of a lack of character. If a leader can demonstrate to the men that his only interest is in THEIR success, the men will bust their backsides for the leader. Leaders can be tough, but the best leaders show the men they are also fair, that there are no favorites. Good leaders also can identify willful disobedience vs an "ah shucks" mistake. Willful disobedience is a clear premeditated mistake or intentional violation of the UCMJ. An ah shucks is a young man having a youthful lack of judgement and can be rehabilitated. Lastly, good leaders will not ask their men to do something they themselves cannot or will not do.

[@nickma71]

Every soldier now, mostly past, knows he was a shit leader and toughness has nothing to do with it.

[@dariostabletopbastelecke4846]

Well Researched. Masterfully Written! Epic!

[@edgeldine3499]

Be careful how you treat people you might be a villain in a very popular book and/or series.

[@FFM0594]

The real Winters is so much more of a bad-ass (going on looks) than the actor who played him.