Low Heart Rate Training - After 100 Miles (Maffetone, Tanda, Metathon, Elevate for Strava)

I've been trying low heart rate training under a Maffetone approach for a couple weeks now. Here is my marathon training update.
Suunto Chest Heart Rate Monitor
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Jeffrey Silver with Floris Gierman
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Metathon
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[@arjanpetersen]

Zone 2 heart rate training takes months to give you the results. Especially people starting with running etc. This means 4-6 months low heart rate then you most probably plateau out. Then start adding more speed work outs.

[@kofuzi]

that's what i hear

[@frankshorter449]

Hm interesting.

[@phl0w666]

Couple of thoughts: When I saw your starting MAF training I was surprised how slow your pace was at the avg. HRs you posted. With your Marathon and other race results this year your pace at AeT should be at least a minute faster. This is a sign of a very weak aerobic base, and indicative of too high training intensity in the past. I'm afraid, you are now in the same boat and going out too fast. You need to really study MAF (or any exercise physiologist for that matter, since they all basically arrive at the same principles). First of all MAF is not "low hr training". His formula of 180-age +\-5 is an approximation of one's aerobic threshold. When I run at 140-145 (I'm also 40) I am close to my Marathon pace. Which makes sense seeing that a Marathon is run around AeT until cardiac drift sets in. Thus, you're not supposed to average that HR but have it as your absolutely upper limit that you should never exceed during easy runs. MAF also asks that you arrive at that limit very slowly and build up to it during at least the first 20' of your run, where you should stay at 15-20 beats below your MAF limit. Same with ending a run. Your HR should drop 10-20 beats during a 20' cool down. This follows that unless you run more than 40' you won't ever reach your MAF HR. Many mistake MAF with low HR but it's really just like any other HR zone based concept inasmuch as you want to spend the majority of your runs below your 1st ventilatory threshold. However, averaging MAF HR is way too fast since it's close to your AeT where you don't wanna spend most your runs at, or you will be spent after a few weeks/ not see real progress because you don't train your aerobic base. Just look at (sub-)elite runners on Strava and their avg HR during easy runs, they are waaay below their MAF HR. Will Leer, Jack Rayner, Seth DeMoor to name a few. If you head over to Phil Maffetone's website there is a wealth of information on the details in the comment section where his employees answer in great depth and go well above and beyond the catchy "180-age" simplification. Slow down on your daily miles and reap the rewards, whether you call it MAF, 80/20, Z1/2 training, or just easy running (like JD)!

[@fernandogoni2395]

I agree with the above. I am turning 40 in 2 weeks, and at that HR range I sit just 15 secs below my marathon pace. It took me a good year of slow easy long runs to get there but I have seen the benefit on race day (very strong last 6 miles and strong finish)

[@dariobuongarzone6469]

Thanks for saying it. I really think this is overlooked and your reasoning is sound. Those athletes at easy pace average 110 beats.

[@errgo2713]

This is really helpful. I'm just starting out with MAF training too. May I ask if you recommend cross training much (exercise bike) or should I focus on just running?

[@phl0w666]

error museum Like any serious book on running out there suggests: The rule of specificity tells us that if you wanna be a better runner you should run. Substituting a run with a bike, elliptical or what have you won't improve your running yet add fatigue. However, that same principle can also be the culprit of repetitive stress injuries. If you're prone to injury or not adapted to running without days off yet, XT can help build your general fitness. It won't do anything for your running though, that's what supplemental training (core, stretching, mobility routines) is for. On the rare chance that my body doesn't feel like running, I just take the whole day off and enjoy the following day's run on fresh legs, which is also in line with pretty much the whole running literature.

[@gustavogomez4138]

Kipchoge was running 10 min/mi on easy runs in preparation for the Ineos challenge. Probably no one needs to run faster than that unless they're doing some sort of workout. 🤷‍♂️

[@Ran-bb3lk]

"on your left" --other running bros not doing low heart rate training.

[@kofuzi]

Runner bros don’t low HR train

[@pabloibarra9874]

Awesome! Keep up the good work!!! BUT PLEASE DO NOT do sitting leg lifts like you showed for your leg exercises. It may give you a nice burn and you may feel a good pump short term.. but it’s terrible for your knees, especially the way you’re licking at the top. I had to opt out of the Chicago marathon this year because of that exercise , I got tendinitis and I haven’t been able to run for 2 months. Try to add Bulgarian squats and back lunges into your routine to decrease the stress on your knees. Trust me.

[@Ophio117]

I'm a strength and conditioning coach in school for physical therapy... This is good advice.

[@ironmac33]

Congrats on getting to 30k!

[@kofuzi]

thanks!

[@patrickvoo]

Thanks for taking us along for this journey Mike! I'm several years older than you (49 now) and looking to give the MAF approach a try to see if it can help bring me to a new PB in the marathon. I've dedicated this past year to only running ultras (culminating in my first 100 miler) and hope that the overall aerobic endurance will translate well!

[@kofuzi]

if nothing else, the mental toughness youve developed with be killer

[@MountTinMan]

Hi Michael, I've coached at the college division ii level as well as multiple state champions at the high school level. I love HR training and have been doing it for over two decades. I heard you say that you don't really care about your max HR and you just at used a generic formula. I've looked at your data and your HR at Chicago was 199 and in a tempo run before the race you hit 190. A few beats per minute can make a huge difference. I think it would be worth your while to figure out the correct zones for YOU. I'm 42 and my max HR is still in the 210 range. I think you'll find your paces more comfortable and your predictions more in line with your expectations. Good luck!

[@deletethisaccountmofos]

I am trying to do this (correct zones for ME) for four years now and i am not sure if i got it right, always looking for help and inputs.

[@jeffdover6845]

It works,i used heart rate training in the 90’s,went from running 19:00 5k to low 16’s! Trust it!

[@kofuzi]

i have faith. i'm not sure i yet have trust.

[@jeffdover6845]

kofuzi I have started using it again,i feel better for speed session!

[@jeffdover6845]

kofuzi I had a friend i use to train with and he went hard in all his running,it took him a while to figure out why he could never beat me in a race,or even come close!

[@TheKcrossen]

I’ve been integrating MAF training pretty consistently for about 5 years. I hear you on getting passed by running groups. This summer I had a mini meltdown on a popular running trail due to people blowing by me with double jogging strollers and dogs, lol. However I’m 50 now and I’m happy with my marathon results, health and staying in the game. 130 to 135 is the best for me during base building

[@kofuzi]

Trying to focus on the long game

[@CraigRumble]

Elevate works on TSS (training stress score) which assigns a stress value to each workout based on HR (the higher the HR the higher the TSS). Your fitness on elevate is essentially the rolling average of your stress score. This will be a lot lower now you're going with low HR training. I'm not saying this is a bad thing but just making you aware of you won't be able to compare previous race fitness figures with where you are going now. If anything your fitness (according to elevate and TSS) will plummet. I've done low HR training before, most of my training is still low HR and I'm still getting faster. Stick with it and good luck.

[@MikeSmith-rd9fi]

i cant get it to sync fully! annoying.

[@OgrePeak]

Before you continue with Maf, throw in the bin that suunto strap and buy a Polar h10. H10 doesn’t go all over your chest and it gives the most accurate hr read on the market. Suunto sensor and his belt are rubbish.

[@kofuzi]

Ok

[@hsitz]

To assess whether there's been improvement I think you may need to look more carefully. For example, you say that you've already improved by 1:00/mile at same heart rate, but if you look back on October 25 you'll see you ran 10 miles at 9:04/mi at 141 hr, basically same hr and pace as this run. There's going to be variation in your runs; you may want to look more carefully to avoid cherry-picking comparisons that exaggerate improvement.

[@kofuzi]

I think that’s an incredibly accurate assessment. I haven’t applied a statistical regression analysis to the averages per mile, as I don’t think there’s enough data. So I’m definitely doing a bit of cherry picking. But my overall gestalt so far is that it felt like there were a lot of 10+ minute miles before. And there are more in the 9:30 range or faster now. I could be completely wrong.

[@hsitz]

@@kofuzi In my own experiments with Maff training I found that my feel for "overall gestalt" was often wrong. It's easy to get excited about a new training method. Coming into it in decent shape already, which it seems you are, I'd be surprised if you're able to find a definite, benefit, but I'll check in down the road and see. Good luck with it.

[@LuisBecerra79]

Congratulations on 30K subscribers Kofuzi. This may not help with your heart rate hahahaha. You deserve it. Good videos.

[@kofuzi]

thanks so much!

[@gabrielmaldonado2195]

Sometimes this just takes patience and running slow gets you places. The results will come, just trust the process.

[@kofuzi]

i have faith. working on trust

[@WhiskyMystery]

"sad and lonely" really made me laugh. I have been there.

[@seanwyatt2052]

I like your thought process. low HR training has worked well for me for the past few years. I follow Matt Fitzgerald's 80/20 Running training plans.

[@kofuzi]

I’ve listened to it as an audio book. The 20 part makes intuitive sense.

[@brianforan2721]

Hi Michael. Very interesting process. As i mentioned last week i probably would have gone with your Nike Coaches program given the only thing that stopped you getting your sub 3 was that difficult period in China town after probably going out a couple of mins to fast.... But i am intrigued by the new approach and impressed. Your body should stay relatively injury free to. I think its a good idea to access it again in two weeks and make a call.

[@timotheverrette5988]

Get passed now, pass them back in the race. ;)

[@stevez3332]

Ha from not liking to run group runs to hosting them youve come a long way my friend.. DO you still use Maffetone im watching all your vids on it today not sure if its possible to do here in FL in the summer as my HR for it would be 138 and well when its 90 and humid before sunrise that could be a powerwalk lol but willing to give it a shot.

[@MyChaz1]

When someone starting low HR training or zone 2/ MAF is leaving the ego at the door. Most people train the grey zone (no mans land). Essentially your MAF pace is a true reflection of your body’s ability to utilise fat as fuel which is essential in endurance events like marathons and triathlons. Over time you will get faster at the same HR meaning you are less likely to bonk later in a long race e.g marathon. Remember, no medals are handed out it training. Stick with it you will be amazed and hopefully a bit of an eye opener.

[@kofuzi]

i am really looking forward to that eye opener

[@Thebombingofdresden1]

Also started the MAF journey two weeks ago. I’m in the 124-134 bpm range but feel I should keep it closer to the lower end range as opposed to the higher end. I’m committed to staying with it. I was never fast so don’t have anything to lose and much to gain. Lol. I love hearing about your MAF journey and reading the comments of so many MAF runners. Thanks. Good luck in the coming weeks. Cheers.

[@kofuzi]

Good luck with your training!

[@Gary-iz8re]

low heart rate training in winter & summer time make a very big different

[@kofuzi]

I would assume so

[@pitchmeupscotty]

Really interesting experiment to do on KZbin! I have my idea's based on personal experience, really curious to see how this will evolve. My guess is, as you've had a good base before, the end result in 2 weeks will not make you happy. You're coming down from a peak. You are simply "shifting" your comfort zone, the zone at which your body is "adapted" to. If you run low HR, your body will prefer low HR. If you run high HR, your body - or you - will feel comfortable in high HR. It is true however that a low HR will have less impact on your body. But it is only when you start to do speed work based on higher HR's you will see the results picking up again. And yes, your HR will not want to climb at that moment. In the same way your body is having trouble shifting the HR down. It is adapted to high HR's. Yes, you really need to slow down to force your HR down. It's adaptation in progress. Not fitness level. Anyway, who knows...? Nice experiment! :-)

[@kofuzi]

that's an interesting perspective. i like the idea that a body acclimated to low HR will want to stay low HR, even at effort.

[@KennyPang]

This takes a lot of discipline. If you want a quick fix. This isn't it. If you have a problem with people passing you during your runs. This is not it. What this does is reset your aerobic base. Look at all the pro and elite runners. Not saying you have to become them. But look at their HR. It's insanely low. Doing 5 min paces at middle 150BPM. insane. Once you reset and have a high aerobic base THEN you add speed. You just become an efficient runner. Consistency is key. In 5 months my MAF went from 10:30'ish to 9:00 128-134BPM The ceiling is higher with LHR training.

[@kofuzi]

That’s great progress.

[@KennyPang]

@@kofuzi Just did the NYC. PR by 8min with a head cold. I know in the bottom of my heart I could have done 8:00 pace at 142-148BPM if I was 100% healthy. Which is insane for me. No fade. No wall.

[@GC-wn3dw]

Hello k p u said once u reset then add speed, what do u mean by that ?? Did u mean once ur aerobic is set then we can do speed workout training but that will elevate our heart rate ??

[@KennyPang]

@@GC-wn3dw yes. Even Floris did some speed work before his sub 3 Boston. Also, all his guests on his YT do speed work as it gets closer to race. A lot of us do the traditional marathon training without a solid base. Then you hit that plateau. What LHR does is make that ceiling higher. Look at all these runners trying to do sub 3 and they can't do it, get burnout, or get injured. They hit their ceiling. You will never know your FULL potential. Min of 6 months to a year of just LHR. High mileage will help. Consistency is key. It's very gradual.

[@GC-wn3dw]

@@KennyPang Thanks 🙏

[@usertutubo06]

I was wondering, during the LHR and hence slower pace, do you keep your normal cadence and shorten your stride length? Or did you reduce the cadence too? I think keeping high cadence with short steps is healthier (?)

[@kofuzi]

I don’t worry about cadence. I know a lot of people disagree, but I am of the opinion that my body will self optimize for my level of fitness, my instantaneous level of fatigue, and my speed. I slow down and let my body do what it wants

[@enricoantonacci4704]

thanks for sharing. Very useful! Trying to stick to MAF until the Marathon of Rotterdam (April 2020). Let's see what it brings.

[@kofuzi]

My race schedule put a bit of a wrinkle on it, but I’d like to be able to use it more extensively through the winter months

[@Draddar]

I've been using Elevate for about 6 months now and I find it pretty useful. Seeing fitness go up over time in a graph is just wonderful to watch. Using MAF the fitness level will never really go up outside long runs, and that is fine! Every run isn't supposed to give more and more fitness, in fact not losing any or very little is already great for a usual daily run. I'd also be very careful drawing any conclusions from the number itself. I think it's very good to track progress inside a marathon cycle, but not sure how accurate it is over long periods of time let alone comparing to anyone else. What I find most useful is actually "Form". If you enable training zones (left most switch in fitness graph) it'll give a bit more information. Basically it's the difference between fitness and fatigue, it shows whether the training is appropriate, too much or too little based on your fitness. Keeping you in check on both sides, especially preventing overtraining. When training hard the idea is to stay a in the optimal zone and then as you taper move into freshness. And thanks for the Metathon suggestion!

[@kofuzi]

I was playing around with that setting a bit in the past couple days. It’s interesting

[@shiguek]

Cool "review", you are putting in some miles!!! Looking forward for the update in a couple of weeks

[@brunocassettari]

Greetings Michael, I would love to hear your thoughts on low HR training and power. Are you still using Stryd, and if so, how does your low HR compares to Stryd’s easy zone. Thanks

[@phl0w666]

Provided your CP is set correctly, you should be well into the endurance zone (z2), close to its upper limit at MAF HR.

[@shaggyrunner]

I’m starting MAF now too. I feel your pain on slowing down. I figured that heading into the winter was good time to try it. Good luck to you. Hope it works for both of us!!!

[@hellbunny9394]

Is it necessary to mix in weight or high intensity training during the months of low heart rate training? How do you prevent power and muscle lost?

[@johanndaart7326]

If you are losing weight, then you can't prevent losing some muscle along losing fat. It's possible to calculate optimal weight loss rate to limit it. It's also a myth, that you should eat more protein while you bulk. It's the opposite, you should eat more protein while you are cutting weight, because it provides satiety and helps keeping muscle mass if you are exercising it. Watch Eric Helms about diet priority pyramid on KZbin. In short, yes, when you are cutting weight, you should do some weight training and you should increase your protein intake a bit. Also you should keep weight loss rate at moderate levels, higher when you are seriously overweight, lower when you are getting into low body fat percentage levels.

[@kaazino911]

Must be !!!!!!120 heart rate💯❤️☀️

[@spacemanstanly]

Great video, super useful to average joe type runners like myself who have always been a little intimidated by heart rate training/data, might just have to get myself a chest strap and some conductive goop 😂

[@kofuzi]

I don’t think everyone needs the goop. But I do. I have always been a bit idiosyncratic

[@anujadkar245]

Hi... I could relate to you 100% I've been a non regular runner for the last 3 years, where I have accumulated around 1300km. Not following a specific heart rate training. My latest 5k PR is 29:50. I thought of giving a shot to MAF 180 method. According to the formula my MAF range is 140-150 and my equivalent pace is embarrassingly slow 9 min/km ( 14.5 min/mile). Do you think someone's MAF heart rate pace could be this slow???

[@kofuzi]

That’s where I was

[@Lazarky9]

I feel you, I also get that "Race Horse" mentality i call it, on my river run route. I often feel the same do a lot of secret racing or passing. its tough but as you said, you just have to stay focused, trust the plan.

[@kofuzi]

i want to give it as true a shot as i can

[@Saielb]

We need a list of songs you run to. Would love a playlist

[@kofuzi]

kofuzi run club on spotify. same name for a playlist on apple music.

[@Saielb]

@@kofuzi Yooo amazing thanks lol

[@chanedsk]

I am just curious, do you do any speed work during this low heart rate training period at all?

[@kofuzi]

nope

[@mauricewashington226]

Thanks so much for donating to my charity race that I’ll run on November 17th! (every little bit helps) In case there are issues seeing the link, this one should work: www.wizathon.com/heroesofhoperace/?p=display&action=participant_Page&id=76383 Also, congrats on 30K subscribers, and continued progress with your low heart rate training!

[@kofuzi]

good luck Mo!

[@jacobriis7859]

There is also Runalyze that you can use to see your form. It's a quite advanced tool. Elevate is great, it's really simple. Runalyze is a little bit more complex. But you don't need to figure out all the numbers and graphs on day 1. Just have a look at the site. It's possible to sync your runs automatically via Garmin just like Strava. Runalyze is free to use.

[@kofuzi]

Thanks! I’ll check it out.

[@andrewmorrissey2349]

Fitness on elevate is based on your stress scores from strava. So your fitness will continue to drop until you do a long run or a tempo or threshold workout. Don't expect it to flatten or improve over the next two weeks, it's highly unlikely

[@kofuzi]

Where do stress scores on Strava come from?

[@andrewmorrissey2349]

@@kofuzi if you go onto elevate, fitness trend then click the little ? in the top right. It gives a great, detailed explanation. Its really interesting stuff! It's basically the relationship between your HR in the activity vs your max HR and resting HR. So low HR running will always lead to a low heart rate stress score, which in turn leads to smaller "fitness" gains. Obviously these scores are just a guide to fitness and assume that consistent hard workouts lead to large gains in fitness. Whereas maffetone focuses on the large aerobic base training which prepares you for the hard workouts in your main training block.

[@toddboucher3302]

For me at 57 it doesn’t work, I live in steep hills at HR123 might as well walk. Hope it works for you, being younger in a flatter terrain. Love the videos good luck

[@kofuzi]

I hope it does, too. Thanks for your support!

[@johanndaart7326]

It's like a bodybuilder saying, that he won't train legs, because they get so sore he can't walk the next day. Training aerobic engine is fundamental for a runner. If it means walking @ 123 HR, then walk. Also, if you are serious about running, it might be a good idea to measure your Resting HR and Max HR properly, so you know your TRUE aerobic zone (180-age is just a cookie-cutter formula). Its upper limit might be higher than 123 HR.

[@judithaheichelbech382]

Johann Daart May I please ask how or what to do with your resting HR to add more specifity to the zones? Thank you!

[@toddboucher3302]

@@judithaheichelbech382 my resting HR is about 55-62. My easy-to-moderate is about 130-140. Now this varies. My runs are mostly hilly and humid which effects things. Now speed interval or hill repeats going up to maybe 160. I mostly run by feel, I know what feels easy and what feels hard. I try to keep my easy days easy in my hard days hard. Like I said I try, yesterday was supposed to be a speech session but I didn’t have it on me, so took it easy

[@johanndaart7326]

@@judithaheichelbech382 There are 5 HR intensity zones right? In most cases, they are calculated based on your Max HR, that is calculated from some formula. Formulas are inaccurate. Instead, what you should do, is to TEST your Resting HR and your Max HR. To test Resting HR you need to wear your smartwatch 24/7, it will measure it VERY accurately. To test your Max HR, you need to perform uphill test or run very fast 5k. You need to give your max effort. The test might be dangerous if you have underlying health issues, do it on your own responsibilty. Then what you do, is you use "Karvonen HR reserve calculator". You input your TESTED Resting and Max HR, and it will output 5 zones that are far more accurate than zones calculated based on arbitrary numbers from formulas. Link to a calculator: www.topendsports.com/fitness/karvonen-formula-calculator.htm

[@RichardWait]

Leg Day. It won’t get easier at the gym I’m afraid! DOMS always happens with legs. Welcome to the 40 club!

[@kofuzi]

looking to build up just to stay afloat, so to speak

[@michalbenka123]

Hi Michael, I started 2months ago using this technique. 4 runs a week / 1hour with tempo cca 8.30min/km. do you think i could have like once per week a more heavy trial run ? i am fun of narure and actually missing it ... when i have been searching for this info i did not find anything cocncrete but somehow i understood i should not do any other runs just with max Maf HR which is in my case 140bpm... to maintain this in our nature is impossible for me. would be nice if you could advice here ... thnaks michal

[@brandenbolt5573]

I've been maff running since April last year. My results are great :) . I started at 15:30 minute miles. And stopped improving in march 2019 - at 10:45 miles. March till June, I stayed at 10:45 per mile. Then I decided to lower my maff heart rate! June 2019, started with new lower heart rate. From 10:45 per mile to now 9:27 per mile in October - over a month, no improvement. I celebrated when I got under 10 minute miles consistently - I waited ages to run 10km in under an hour at effortless maff pace :) My girlfriend did not respond fast to maff, and she gave up with it. She started at 19 minute mile - and ended at 17 minute mile. It was just ridiculously slow for her.

[@kofuzi]

Those are very interesting results! I know it takes time, but I think I would have given up with you girlfriend’s results as well. What a great experiment by the two of you!

[@brandenbolt5573]

@@kofuzi I meant to say - initially when I dropped my maff heart rate I went back to 11:30 mm. Took a month to get it down to about 10:45 and onto the 9:27 I'm at now. I'm 35 - I started maff at 34. I started with a maximum heart rate of 151 - it stopped working in march, and went to 145bpm maximum and that's when magically I started improving again. Elites often train at below 130bpm and it amazes me how they do this without even realising ! Did you know that there is a maff conversion chart for race pace going by your current minute mile at maff? www.runningahead.com/groups/LOWHRTR/Forum/313d42ed8b8e4914bc3bf68a27e29f3f It tallies up perfect for me ! My poor girlfriend got so fed up running that slow - in two months of maff she went to race 5km , and could not beat her pb. Since then 3 months ago, she focuses on simply running more miles, as fast or slow as she wanted too - she went from 10mpw to 20 miles per week, and has just got a 5k pb, 3 minutes faster then ever - so for her double in millage - was the magic solution , but can't help think in the back of my mind that the maff training has caught up with her and assisted that PR! Its so hard to know the right approach but as a geek who just wants to get faster as quick as possible - playing the patient Maff game has been torture! 18 months off base building maff training makes me so hungry to race! Fed up of running slowly all the time and watching people overtake me when I know I could now wallop them!!!! Well, now is my time to start running fast starting tomorrow :) and surprise everyone that think they are faster then me!

[@judithaheichelbech382]

Hello, Brandon. You’re journey sounds fantastic. I am just starting mine. I have done Tri for about 10 years w one full in 2017 but really am dedicated to slowing my roll to work on what I know is a weak aerobic base. My questions, when you first started out with your slow pace how did you manage to run? Did you do walk/run? I did a 1/2 2 weeks ago and avg was 10:40 w HR avg 180! Doing MAF test my avg pace was 21:00 to keep HR under 127! The slowest slog would get me about that so I had to walk. Did you also walk?

[@PDARUNS]

Low hr takes a long time to develop. Im still developing my aerobic base. Dont worry about others around u. Its funny because they were probably moving 8min mile pace at like a higher hr. So in a few months u will be running low 8 min miles at low hr effortlessly. Feeln alot fresher than those guys :) keep it up.

[@mlegrand]

Two things, I can totally relate to how hard it is to run slow and let a normal group pass you like that. Every bone in your body was saying 'speed up'. I know I would have struggled. Might have been better to stop and "tie your shoe" or something. Second, affiliate link that heart-rate gel so you can make that uber small amazon %. You need those nickels and pennies. 👍

[@kofuzi]

ah, great reminder! totally forgot about links!

[@mlegrand]

@@kofuzi - I'm here to help . . . and buy all your affiliate linked stuff 😆

[@TheFODRunner]

Kudos for not pushing on when you saw that group, thats a very disciplined thing to do! You are doing well with it mate, fair play...thats good improvements in just 2 weeks!!

[@kofuzi]

i'm not sure it was a true improvement from a statistical perspective or just a blip due to some slightly more pleasant weather. but i'm just about drowning and will look for anything to keep me afloat. so i'll take it

[@TheFODRunner]

kofuzi good man! I tend to not run quite as slow as the MAF method suggests for me but sit just above that flr my easy days.... reason being the MAF pace would be soul destroying for me. I think we just need to look around at the elites and look at what they are doing 👊

[@georgeevangelos9086]

I stuck with low hr training for about 6 months because I was really into trail ultra races. It certainly helped for longer distances and gave you strong legs because of time-on-feet. I spent this past summer racing sprint triathlon and now am doing short trail races, 10k and half with way faster paces, sssoooo I guess my point is, try it out! Stick with it and eventually, you should definitely add back in speed work and tempo efforts. I also found that slow running gave me more injuries, but I've since corrected my cadence (from 165 to 178+ average for every run no matter the pace and no injuries at all. Follow Vlad Ixel on instagram, the absolute best running specific exercises.

[@thomasberglund]

Great work Michael, and thanks for sharing your journey. Keep at it! :) Low heart rate training absolutely works, but I think you need to increase your total weekly distance slowly but surely to make steady progress. Consistency is more important than speed, and if slowing down improves your aerobic base while reducing the injury risk, it's a win-win situation. I've been doing mostly low heart rate running for the last two years, and I finally broke the 3 hour marathon in Amsterdam this year. I ran 03:00:52 (avg. HR at 164 bpm) in Paris in April (18 min PB), and 02:55:58 in Amsterdam in October with an avg. HR at 159 bpm. This was my 4th. marathon in total. The biggest change for me in 2019 was increasing the total distance per week. An easy way to increase total distance, is to run twice per day. I started doing 5 km morning runs and 10 km evening runs, and slowly increased the distance each week until I hit 180 km in a single week at the most. The longest single session in this training block was 28 km at 4.30/km pace with an avg. HR at 139 bpm. If I were to change things moving forward, I would take the advice from Floris Gierman about doing "step-back weeks" ever 4th. week (30-40% less total volume), to maximize recovery and reduce the risk of overtraining. I would also probably increase the weekly total distance in smaller increments (maybe 10%), and add more Saturday or Sunday long runs at about 30-32 km every other week. I think the long runs are important to prepare body mechanics and muscles for the marathon distance. Other than that, don't overcomplicate it, be patient, get enough sleep 8-10 hours ideally, drink enough water and eat well. Sleep and reducing stress are huge factors for lowering the heart rate in general, in my experience. I'm by no means an expert, but low heart rate training sure works, and I thought I would share some of my sub3 marathon story. I've never done MAF tests and don't really feel the need to do them either, but I guess it's a nice way to see the progress along the way as well. My diet is mostly vegetarian. Feel free to have a look through my Strava training log, if you are curious: www.strava.com/athletes/7445985/training/log

[@JoshNishitani]

I looked at your log and I see that you don't do specific workouts even leading closer to the race. I think I saw a 5K track session in there. Have you tried periodising your training leading up to the race by doing tempos, speed work and hills closer to the race? I think there always needs to be a balance and that possibly you could run even faster by doing more workouts. Another question I have is if you do strides after runs

[@thomasberglund]

@@JoshNishitani Thanks for the questions. The 5K track session was just a small test to check my current speed ability. I do some simple progression runs now and then, but no complicated speed work, and my avg. HR is still quite low. I could and should probably have done more speed work, but as you can see it wasn't really needed to achieve the sub 3 hour marathon goal. What is your marathon PR, Joshua? I like to keep things simple, which is one reason why I really like low heart rate training. :) For about 6 months this year, I followed much of the training philosophy from Josh Sambrook jset.run and also got some coaching from him. In the 8 weeks before Josh's 2h28min marathon he ran an average of 172km per week, at an average pace of 4:47min/km (70% of race pace). The only speed work he did was 5 km park runs on Saturdays every week. You can see an interview with Josh over at Floris Gierman's channel. :)

[@JoshNishitani]

Thomas Berglund I’ve never ran a marathon, but I was meant to until I got injured this year, I was also aiming for sub 3. I’m relatively new to running. I think I have a lot more natural speed than endurance as I’m younger, so I’m definitely gonna be implementing a good base building phase in my training.

[@JoshNishitani]

Im going to focussing on the shorter distances next year though like 5k and 10k. I ran an 18:20 amidst a heavy training week early so I’m interested to see how well I can progress

[@thomasberglund]

@@JoshNishitani Hmm. Ok. Building a solid base using low heart rate training will for sure benefit your 5K and 10K speed as well. The most important thing that low heart rate training is doing for you is to make your body more robust and more energy efficient, giving your body time to adjust accordingly. Doing too much too quickly, especially speed work, will highly increase the risk of injuries, depending on your already existing robustness and fitness. Injuries breaks both consistency and fitness, and you always have to start over, hence reaching your potential will actually take longer than doing mostly low heart rate training. Your mileage may vary. ;-) Good luck!

[@ByanGwok]

Just be patient. You are now doing more like what I am doing now, mostly slow runs + some strength works throughout the week. I would say low heart rate training with probably rest and diet, and limit your psychological stress take about 6 weeks to see the slight result, if you can't see it after 6 weeks, there maybe something wrong with your health, then you may think about addressing them. After 4-6 months will be a different level, you should think about increase weekly mileage by then. I suggest at your level should still at least do a 20min. tempo run each week.

[@GarbageLegs]

The elevate graph would be more helpful if strava would actually use the power data provided by the Stryd pod. As it is its only going off of your heart rate % compared to max so generally its only going to give you more "fitness" as your volume increases. It'd also give you alot more accurate results if all your runs were done in a similar environment, ie on the treadmill and not dealing with summer heat and winter colds.

[@SamStow]

Great stuff! Are you planning to do regular speed tests? Another guy I followed did regular 5mile runs (~every 4 weeks) at upper limit to see what his aerobic threshold pace was. Maybe not immediately but I would also consider adding in short strides (4-5x 20-30s) a couple times a week where your heart rate won't peak too high but you get to work the speed and running economy still. Some people even do them downhill to lessen the aerobic load. Mark Cucuzella is a big advocate for this and he loves MAF method.

[@Leitefsj]

Most beautiful city in the world.

[@kofuzi]

A great place to run

[@teddyjordan8266]

LIKE 👍

[@nickivan6173]

as always an elaborate pro presentation, keep it up

[@kofuzi]

Why thank you!

[@TimGrose]

I tried that Metathon.com predictor and results were suprisingly bad in a similar sub 3 project I am starting on with a 3:15 prediction which I am hoping can do somewhat better than after a 61:40 10 mile race recently and sub 3s in the past. I then noticed does not seem to be counting "Virtual Runs" on Zwift - i.e. treadmill runs. It is thus "robbing" me of 2 days mileage per week and usually my interval session! That said my prediction is at least trending the right way as it was 10 mins slower 8 weeks ago.

[@hunterclarke6989]

Hi Tim sorry for the trouble with the sync (I made Metathon). I did make some changes in the last week that may have solved the issue if you don't mind re-syncing. If not, I'd love to figure out what the issue is. If you're interested, send me a DM on Facebook or Twitter so I can work with you to debug.

[@kloun1980]

Thanks for the video. I am trying to slow my H.R. down as well.. BUT, my heart rate is usually exactly the same regardless of my speed. If i'm running 9MM it's 150-160, if i'm running 7 MM it is 150-160.

[@will-eagle1975]

I dont know. This HR training seems like a waste of time in my opinion. I just run by feel. Pace/Speed is what I look at in training. I dont look at heart rate or all that mumbo jumbo. I just run consistent miles daily at a consistent amount of time. Ex. If I go out for a 2 hour run,it will be either 14 or 15 miles. So that when race day comes in a marathon, I should run 16 or 17 miles in 2 hours. I dont know, hope it works out for you.

[@kofuzi]

Always a possibility that I’m wasting time.

[@johanndaart7326]

"I dont look at heart rate or all that mumbo jumbo. I just run consistent miles daily at a consistent amount of time." - So you believe in "big miles mambo jumbo". 180-age is a simplification. But "you need high mileage" is also a simplification. You can either run or you can train. If you want to train, then you want to manage your training parameters, to give your organism precise stimulus. It's not simple. Some of the professional runners are picking their finger for a blood test, right after each hard running session to test their lactate. That's why they win medals. They are not "just running", they are training, so they want to hit precise training goals.

[@SuperNictastic]

I am hurtling my way towards the big 50 in a few months time so my HR should be 180 - 50 -5 = 125. I have been trying this for about a month. Starts out ok for the first 5km but then becomes pretty much a walk in dispersed with short jogging periods. I think I may as well do long hikes up the hills instead if I am to keep to this rate.

[@kofuzi]

1. do you have an external heart rate monitor? what you describe sounds exactly like what happens to everyone, including those acclimated to low HR running, if they use a wrist based HR monitor. 2. being "ok" for 5k after just a month puts you ahead of the curve compared to most other people's experiences

[@SuperNictastic]

@@kofuzi Thanks for the reply. I am using a Garmin 235 wrist based monitor. I do have an older Garmin 305 which does have a chest strap with it. I could try that for a run this weekend and see if there's any difference.

[@colino72]

Looking into doing this, given how hard I found the last 10km of my first marathon. As I am 47, I will need to be down at 133bpm or less, which I think will need to be over 6min/km pace, which I will find very very slow! With no races coming up, and only the 2020 NY marathon in the pipeline, maybe a couple of halfs in the first half of next year. It's going to be a struggle!

[@DarkPa1adin]

I am having ankle stress (Tibialis Posterior Tendonitis) on my left ankle and this is just my first marathon block. Not sure how long I should rest and if I should run at all. I have marathon end of the month. Looks like I'm done already

[@kofuzi]

what does your doctor say?

[@DarkPa1adin]

@@kofuzi I didn't see a doctor for it. I did some research online, iced a few days rested. Now I resume running while enduring the pain. The funny thing is my first 5km run it is painless. And before my runs it hurts just by walking. Not sure if it is due to swell/blood clot.

[@TomTheAustrian]

Your fatigue is the direct result of a specific run added to the rest of fatigue from former runs. Your fitness might go down now as your training intensity is lower than before as your running slower. It’s something like your chronic fatigue calculated over a few weeks. Your running form will then be the result of your fatigue at your current fitness. How ready would you be for a race now. Good would be a little bit in the positive. Just read the theory of TSS for training peaks. It’s the same principle.

[@TomTheAustrian]

And maybe add in a few rest days.

[@kofuzi]

will do

[@yayanono4833]

You are so visibly invested in this project. Very interesting to watch.

[@ryanmcgeorge5390]

I came across a 2018 addition to the MAF formula. Not to add 5 if your waist is more than half your height. Drops my MAF down to 142bpm. I’m doing the low power, zone 1, equivalent of MAF training, which does keep my HR under 142 most of the time. Just a week in but so far so good. I have upped my mileage and slowed down a lot. This method should hopefully avoid the cycles of overtraining I go through. It’s also pretty relaxing to plod along. I’ve been watching Floris’s videos too. Saw your comments there! ;) Keep going. Remember, slow down to race fast.

[@kofuzi]

It has been pleasantly relaxing. Sometimes.

[@StephanieHughesDesign]

I love your videos, very intellectual and informative. What HRM watch do you use? Do you use wrist and chest strap? I am leaning towards a Garmin 245 or Vivoactive 3/4? The Apple Watch Series 3 looks good as well. I need an HRM that uses wrist and chest-strap for cycling and running. I am trying to start running again. I want to ramp up to 50 KM per week.

[@kofuzi]

for heart rate, the watch doesn't matter as much as the external hrm. i use polar OH1+ as an armband. if you're looking at a chest strap, there are a lot of great options, such as Polar H9, Wahoo Tickr, and Suunto

[@danielhobday]

Only two weeks of MAF approach is nothing! As mentioned by others, it takes months of this same HR training to show improvement, so I’m pleased and a little surprised that you’ve knocked @10% off your average pace already. Most people give up as it’s slow to produce results. Also, two weeks and 15 runs and how many miles!? MAF training philosophy really emphasises the importance of rest days. Are you taking any, and what are they like?

[@deletethisaccountmofos]

Yea, i want to know about rest days too.

[@johy2007]

In colder months, the heart rate is lower and I can run faster paces at the same rate (for example 145 bpm). But when it is hot and humid, the HR really shoots up (the 145 bmp would go to maybe 154 bpm), even on an easy run. What do you do in such cases if you are using the MAF method?

[@kofuzi]

slow down? i don't know. i'm only two weeks into this.

[@47s18]

Hey man, just a little tip about dealing with psychological "passing" problem - always remember, that people are too busy thinking about themselfs, so you don't need to worry what someone is thinking about you when passed by, because 9/10 they think about how "cool" they are and not about how "bad" you are. You can easily find proof to that in your mind also :) Everybody is too busy by judging and evaluating themselfs, so you dont need to worry about theit thoughts, because you have stuff to worry about - your HR :D Have a nice day.

[@kofuzi]

Thank you

[@guest00791]

I did something similar. 3 months in zone2(fat burn) didn't make any difference. So I bumped it up to Zone3 (aerobic) and it worked very well for me, especially in conjunction with long runs. Anyway its interesting to see what works for different folks.

[@kofuzi]

It’s a big experiment (or rather, a tiny one n=1)

[@DanielSDiehl]

I’ve been reading a lot about low heart rate training lately. A few big races coming up for me, planning on trying out in the spring. Always wondered how all these people around me have 140-150 bpm running low high 5/low 6 min/mile paces, yet I’m doing 8 min/mile at 175 bpm.

[@kofuzi]

It’s bizarre

[@JSL-cc6of]

I've found sometimes it's better to not even wear a heart rate monitor and just run easy to a point where you can still easily breathe with your nose. Maybe in another 2 weeks look at how you feel after your runs. If you feel like you can still pile on more miles after you've finished your runs, you'll know you've improved. Another thing that helped me was instead of counting miles, i just went with time. ie I'll run 75 minutes today as opposed to i'll try hit x miles in x minutes while on low heart rate. This puts more emphasis on time legs rather than mileage. Doing this I was able to build up my weekly mileage substantially without injury/niggles! Keep at it, regardless whichever method you're going for!

[@kofuzi]

i've been running on time because i have a schedule to keep to, and i don't always know how fast i'll be able to run. so i run x amount of minutes out and then hope that i run reasonably similar pace on the way back. otherwise, i will be late taking the girls to school.

[@corymyhre]

Tell us about those shoes you wore today!!! The cloudflow's have a new updated version coming out today (7 NOV). I am curious if you liked them as I have been using them for the past few months...

[@kofuzi]

these are the on cloudflow. i got them a while ago but had some issues with them where they were hurting my quads and i thought i might be getting IT band problems. i took a break from them, but i thought i might give them a second chance with this new style of running. they've been great for slower miles than what i thought this shoe was originally intended for. 100 mile review coming in about a week.

[@stuartkingma7351]

I would say the 'Form' in Elevate is a calculation of how race ready you are. A combination of fitness and fatigue, obviously the higher your fitness and lower your fatigue, the better your form would be.

[@kofuzi]

that's what others have commented as well. i didn't know if it was pulling data from my footpod though in terms of ground contact time or some other metric

[@jpvliet86]

Keep going on Maffetone method, you will see more difference coming up. I started in 2017 with MAF when I saw Floris Gierman Extramilest and did Berlin this year in 2.51. Good luck on your marathon! 💪🏻

[@kofuzi]

Thanks for your input. It’s very encouraging and comes with good timing

[@dallob1]

Other factors could lead to lower HR - it’s colder, as you mention, sleep, recovery following your marathon. I wouldn’t read to much into your results thus far.

[@kofuzi]

I agree with that. I’m basically reading tea leaves, I think.

[@timtrenholm3698]

Finished my 1st marathon on Oct 20th, missed my 4hr target by 6mins 29secs. Took 2 weeks off, and started MAF training, which I'm 100% committed to for the next 3 months. All on treadmill where I can use the treadmill to fine tune the heart rate. So far it's going better than I thought, haven't needed to walk once. But averaging 6:30 to 7min KMs is humbling. Please keep up the heart rate training specific updates!

[@kofuzi]

I know the feeling. I’m right there with you

[@terrytoy6675]

Great great info! Just subscribed. Are you running fasted and are you following a specific nutrition regiment?

[@markv2087]

I started my Maffetone experiment about the same time as you, and I'm 53, so have to go a lot slower (120-130 bpm), but I remain quite intrigued by it. The mind/body aspects are especially interesting to me. I've found that even suggesting to myself, "I don't "*have* to go fast," lowers my heartrate -- if I really *feel* that I don't have to go fast. That's the psych challenge. Not feeling I have to go fast changes what neurological circuits we tap in to -- sympathetic vs parasympathetic (which in the end, will mean burning fat vs carbs). When we're engaging the sympathetic fight/flight circuits, we're responding to and reducing stress chemicals in the body. That seems to be one reason it's so addicting, we like feeling and then using that fight/flight energy. But the Maffetone training starts to push the whole project into the parasympathetic system, the rest/digest system. Many people (including me) like the feel of the sympathetic circuits (the game of running from danger, competing and beating others) but also get a lot of enjoyment out of the gliding, serene, parasympathetic feel that running can be. So it'll be interesting to find out if I feel like I lose something by really getting into this. I guess healthiest long-term approach is to have both handy, and to be able to switch to the sympathetic system in the closing kilometers.

[@kofuzi]

That’s an interesting analysis. I like fight/flight, it seems

[@pedrosluna]

Hi Michael, I guess I missed a video, but what is the next marathon you’re doing and what happened to the coach-no más?

[@kofuzi]

Houston. The coaching was provided by Nike for the Chicago Marathon

[@dominic.fielding]

Form on elevate is yesterdays fitness minus yesterdays fatigue. The fitness number might be a bit skewed if you haven't used an accurate tracker for HR since that is one of the main metrics for calculating it, if you don't have a HR tracker it wildly over estimates your increase in fitness. So it makes sense for your fitness to dive if you just went from a watch based HR to a chest strap HR, I don't know how much I invest into these numbers compared to just HR recorded during a run tbh.

[@kofuzi]

That’s an interesting point

[@edwardlee7727]

Also just started on Low heart rate training, both on treadmill and outdoors. My heart has gotten used to the slower pace. Just need to get more patient in terms of finishing the distance.

[@errgo2713]

This is such a positive and helpful video and comment thread - I'm glad I found this channel. I'm also a 40yo starting out MAF training (now 4 runs in). I realise that it's easier to control the HR spikes on a treadmill by using walks on a steep incline to warm up, then slowly dropping the incline whilst increasing speed to a jog. This is v dull but it does spare the old ego from getting passed!

[@kofuzi]

The weather will quickly get horrible enough in Chicago where I will need to hit the treadmill at least some of the time. I’m looking forward to trying some of the treadmill techniques that you and others have mentioned,

[@JasonBlaydes]

Good luck with this type of training. I didn't respond well to MAF but everyone is different and I hope this helps you on your journey. No matter what, it will always be a growth experience that you'll learn from. I look forward to watching you along the way.

[@kofuzi]

I’m not sure I’m responding well or just reading tea leaves at the moment. But I have faith for now to keep going.

[@WillemNanning]

Again a great video on a very interesting topic. I'm not using Strava the way you do but the lines your describing are very similar to the ones used in TrainingPeaks. Eventually I believe you'll need to focus on Form since that is the result of your fitness (being the plus) minus fatigue (the negative part since you don't want to be tired at the moment of racing). You'll most probably see that one shooting to the stars in the tapering period. Your popularity is well deserved since your producing very interesting and IMHO honest vlogs.

[@kofuzi]

I think you’re right and that I will ultimately need to understand all the metrics eventually. Just trying to process what I need to for the moment. The rest of it will come to me. I hope.

[@thatguygreg]

Hi Kofuzi - great job sticking with the low HR training. Seems like you've made some solid progress already which is great. Hope you stick with it. I'm about a month ahead of you in my low HR journey and aside from the first two weeks of torture I have really been amazed at my progress since I started. One thing I've noticed is the change in the data on the Elevate app. My fitness line started to drop but so did my level of fatigue. My level of form also started to move from close to overload up into optimal and it's been slowly increasing through to neutral. It's levelled off now that I'm getting more used to the HR training but it's hovering arounf -5 to -10 range (in the neutral zone I think. The data is useful but I don't think it's something to worry about. As long as you keep improving your aerobic endurance and getting the miles in then it should be fine. One thing that may be useful is running to time instead of distance. Like everyon I've slowed down a lot since I began with Maffetone training so it takes me considerably longer to get my prescribed mileage in when I run. I switched to time about two weeks ago now and it's been really helpful. You will also start to notice that you cover more distance in the same time as the weeks go by which is really encouraging to see.

[@kofuzi]

thanks for the comment. it's great to hear from people who are just a bit ahead of me, timewise. i will pay less attention to the elevate fitness graph.

[@hagakuru]

Your expressions and long breaths when you were talking about getting the conductive gel had me laughing bad!

[@kcoe818]

Are you still using your Apple Watch with the heart rate strap? I feel like It’s not reading consistently.

[@kofuzi]

No. Polar vantage v with Suunto strap

[@paweenutanun3090]

It does work. Usually takes me 2 - 3 month to see the gain. You have to be patient and not racing too many races during this building phase though.

[@kofuzi]

yeah, two things that i can't comply with

[@LukmanOthmans]

All the best for z2 training 👍 Following your strava

[@slodogg]

Trust the process and run your own race. You’ll be waiting for them at the finish line of the next big one.

[@kofuzi]

i have faith at the moment. working on trust.

[@joshrunsamarathon6387]

Timely topic, and thanks for introducing me to the Maffetone method! After doing my first 2 marathons in a 7 week span of each other this year (Chicago, Seattle on 12/1), and not knowing much about how to properly train for either one, I've decided to devote the entire first half of 2020 to building my aerobic base, before adding more race specific workouts for a fall marathon. Through Maffetone's own books and others, like Run for Life, 80/20 Running, and Primal Endurance, I'm realizing how inefficient (if you agree with this approach, that is) my training was, so whether I decide to use something like Metathon or Elevate like you are, or just by taking regular MAF tests, I'll be curious to see what this approach to training does for my fitness next year, and how that impacts my fall race time.

[@kofuzi]

on a side note, i do just like running a lot. so this method does enable quite a bit of running without having to take rest days (so far).

[@chiyoko2965]

Hi kofuzi, it may be difficult right now but I think in the long run, you will be in a better place than others. Patience :)

[@kofuzi]

the way i see it, i need to break things down before i can build any higher up

[@PaulWaye]

Really really enjoyed this one today. Seemed like you were really exploring inside yourself.

[@iPivo]

Is there any strategy for adjusting the distances for low heart rate training? I’m assuming your running sessions are longer than they used to.

[@kofuzi]

As far as I know, no. But I want to do as much as I can as “fast” as I can

[@anoir1115]

i have no chance to run as fast as you in a marathon but i can run 5:30 pace at around 135 bpm. seems like it is the only way i can beat you in running. haha :)

[@kofuzi]

I’d like to get there

[@benlee526]

Started dipping my toes in this style of training, as well. Interesting to observe and evaluate your experience. I am training for my first ultra (37 miles) after having finished my 2nd marathon. For this reason, I am focusing more on aerobic base and endurance at slower paces. Looking forward to the next update!

[@kofuzi]

Let me know how your training goes, as well! Good luck!

[@vetirun2884]

Never heard of metathon that's a pretty interesting statistic

[@DarkPa1adin]

They should run past you and cheer KoFuZi! KoFuZi!

[@kofuzi]

i don't think they even noticed me

[@josemanuelpastoril9184]

The race predictors don’t work for me. I tried many and They usually are way off, I just played with the metathon. It predicted for 4 weeks ago 3:04 and 3:05 for today. The reality: 2:56 in chicago 3 weeks ago, 2:55 in New York last weekend. Slow heart rate runs 5 days(at least a 1 long run or 2(14-18 miles) ), 1 day tempo and 1 day Vomax a week. It is what works for me. Basically 80/20.

[@kofuzi]

Nice

[@hunterclarke6989]

Hi, I created Metathon. The predictor (and corresponding study) is based on a marathon running population that has obvious biases. So your mileage may vary (pun very much intended). I have heard that the offset is fairly consistent, however. For instance, your offset looks like 9-10 minutes. So that may be a way to use the calculator with less error.

[@frankshorter449]

Great video. I don't have the patience and wouldn't want to wear H. R. Monitor. I've switched to the 80/20 method using precieved effort and GPS Garmin. 🏃

[@kofuzi]

How do you know your 80 is really 80 though?

[@frankshorter449]

@@kofuzi for example running a 30 mile week : I would do a tempo run plus 400s repeats another day equaling about 8 miles...the rest 22 miles easy (9:40/mile)