KPZ III - Fact? Fiction? or Fake?

This video is going to look at yet another World of Tanks release the “KJPZ III T” as a tier 9 tank destroyer.
The only problem is this was never a tank destroyer but rather a MBT from the mid-1970s’.
Wargaming has alerted changed and butchered the vehicles’ role, purpose and reason to suit their game and once again adjusted history to suit them. The danger in doing so is further muddying the waters between facts and fiction and increasingly their misconceptions and mistakes are being accepted as the truth and replicated by modelling companies and articles elsewhere.
This video is not looking at game balance - as trying to fit a MBT from the 70’s into a system where it has to be pitted against WW2 period vehicles is foolish to even try, but rather to show you what the vehicle was intended to be, why and when, and let you the viewer at least understand how much they try to change and alter to deceive players.
Sources: The original proposals and paperwork submitted during FMBT
#KJPZIIIT #KPZIIIT #worldoftanks #Premium #armouredvehicle #armoured #Tanks #MilitaryVehicles #fredsmum #rare #experimental #fake #FMBT #weapons #GERMAN #premium

[@mrjockt]

Wargaming lost the plot back when they seemed to make the decision that every nation in the game had to have a full line up of light, medium and heavy tanks, tank destroyers and self propelled guns and if there weren’t enough in service, prototypes, unbuilt designs or even unbuilt proposals for them then they might as well just make shit up.

[@SheepInACart]

Thats the weird part though, there ARE plenty of tanks they could use. Germany built plenty of mobile guns that would fit into the role of this vehicle in game (even if most where NOT considered tank destroyers by name or doctrine), but for some reason they've decided its better to downrate the armor and mobility of a prototype MBT to fill the role. In my mind it'd actually be far better if they made totally fictional vehicles then designated it somehow (eg all vehicles with suffixed with *) than created wrong impressions of real ones.

[@mrjockt]

@@SheepInACart To be honest the German lines aren’t really the problem, it’s ALL the other nations where Wargaming insist on making vehicles up, the Chinese and Japanese TD lines are perfect examples.

[@allanrowland130]

@@mrjockt, the Japanese TD line is reasonably accurate with changes made for 'the game'. The lower tiers are close to reality. The 8, 9, and 10 are based on 2 proposals and the 1 that went to build and was supposed to enter production. No arguement about almost all the Chinese vehicles being the result of 'creative licence'.

[@Taffer-bx7uc]

They straight jacketed themselves by limiting themselves to tanks going up to tier ten only.

[@chost-059]

It looks like a TAM hull with a weird oscillating turret, possibly inspired by the df105

[@Diedwhilemakingwaffles]

It's marder hull I think

[@PrivateMemo]

Brahs. It's a unique hull. It just looks like the TAM and Marder hull because WG needed inspiration from something, since it was never made. Both of those hulls are shorter than this. And potentially taller.

[@makergreen]

​@@DiedwhilemakingwafflesDF-105's hull is Marder 1A's 😂😂😂😂😂

[@Diedwhilemakingwaffles]

@@makergreen so now it means any other vehicle can't have a marder hull?

[@SkylinerPL]

I love this series 💜, keep it up 👍. It would be nice if more people found out what vehicles in WoT are Fake/Non-Historic so that they don't spread false stories later.

[@chriskortan1530]

I'd like to see more about that gimbal turret monstrosity. The idea seems so unworkable yet interesting on how they made it function.

[@comentedonakeyboard]

I think the concept originated with the Borgward prototype for the Leopard I (ca 1960).

[@TastelessM-13]

Hello, im here from ConeofArc. I am gonna watch all your videos when I have time. This is gonna be such a great content in between my War Thunder matches :D

[@Kirbyops109]

Finally. Turm III history reveal. Now I don't have to question about it in War thunder anymore

[@minhquang2640]

You see Ivan, insert a J into the name would make a MBT become a Tank Destroyer...

[@eternalcringe990]

Oh hi, Charioteer and GSOR 1008

[@fourche7]

I love how they make up gimmicks for fake or near-fake tech tree lines, but willingly ignore opportunities to give historical vehicles gimmicks, and just water them down into generic vehicles. I would imagine this same tank but with the engine gimmick you mentioned would actually sell better. It could have been sort of like the temperature gauge thing they showed for auto-cannons. You get can boost for 10 seconds at most, but then after that, it acts like the removed speed governor on crack, which would quickly destroy the engine and set you on fire. It would require more micromanaging, but could have allowed for an unique min-maxing builds where prioritizing internal module durability actually lets you get more out of the turbo mode.

[@HarverTheSlayer]

I can give you an even better one: give it the same mechanic those Chinese "rocket tanks" have. It works literally the same way, giving a power and top speed boost for a few seconds, and takes a while to recharge. Nerf the top speed a bit and you're golden.

[@matthiuskoenig3378]

HarverTheSlayer I like a heat management system more, instead of set recharge you can boost at difference times, but the longer you wait to boost again the longer you can safely boost.

[@HarverTheSlayer]

@@matthiuskoenig3378 Oh, absolutely, that could be cool as well. I was just making a point of using a mechanic they ALREADY have in the game.

[@maxo.9928]

Oh lmao i love seeing WOT getting bashed by people who've tried their darnest to give them all the information and even suggestions needed to implement these vehicles in a historically accurate or, at the very least, properly representative (as much as possible) of the IRL vehicle's performance and role. Sad to see them misappropriate so much hard and excellent work.

[@9bang88]

WOT should focus on fixing their game mechanics. Game is trash in its current state

[@Thekilleroftanks]

@@9bang88 you say that, but the biggest complaint of world of tanks is the fake stuff. compare that to warthunder. where 90% of the game is shit and people are bitching about it constantly. ironically enough the vocal community hating world of tanks, dont play the game and are massive warthunder diehards.

[@9bang88]

@@Thekilleroftanks you haven't proven anything

[@omuffin1854]

​@@Thekilleroftanksyou're a clown. WOT is an arcade tank game

[@NakiriX1]

@@9bang88 he did, youve played the game at most for 1000 battles and call it shit, but you probably have 10000hrs on warthunder

[@matthiuskoenig3378]

The fmbt German engines seem right up WoT's alley for a gimmick tank, surprised they didn't use it. Espeically with the blue flame affect you described.

[@jameslawrie3807]

These things, like movies, propagate myths that are impossible to stamp out

[@chromiumphotography5138]

Love the blue pills comment. Unfortunately, it looks like WG devs have been at the Krokodil again.

[@feckya4773]

i love your channels is a pure gold mine of information i especially love these videos on wot as i used to argue an debate people a lot on how wargaming create new vehicles that never existed but they passed it of as real or twisted existing ones to an extreme degree please continue doing these videos as they are interesting and i can point people to them

[@Sleepy.Time.]

WG is their own worst enemy, back in 2015 they had a fairly well balanced enjoyable game with WoTs and since then they have done everything to run it into the ground.

[@ivankrylov6270]

Except for the few times the game became unplayable while the e25 was on sale

[@Sleepy.Time.]

@@ivankrylov6270 yes those little cockroaches are evil and back then you could get 5+ arty in a match so it was far from perfect

[@admiraltiberius1989]

Just got to work, gonna enjoy some AA as I get the day started. I always love these videos.

[@michaeldenesyk3195]

Well done, I always wait for your videos. Thank you for this.

[@CthulhuInc]

haha! well, like, you know, we want a realistic game of tank warfare! but, like, you know, we want it to be "fun" or "playable" haha! well done, ed - thanks for another great video, cheers!

[@RedXlV]

When Wargaming does this to designs that have fairly complete real stats available is the most obnoxious part. If they're outright making up a tank, or using a tank that only "existed" as a concept rather than being fully designed, fair enough to make the stats whatever they need to be for the intended in-game role. But if the tank has real-life stats that don't fit the intended role (or are outright too strong for the game period, as would likely be the case for an accurately modeled KPZ III), the obvious answer is *don't use it.* Don't turn it into something completely different to shoehorn it into the game. Why is that so hard for Wargaming to understand?

[@ttpechon2535]

Nice! Your vids have a level of detail rarely seen, thanks for all your hard work! Also, why is there a link to your website on your youtube page if it no longer works and google flags it as hackers?

[@armouredarchives8867]

hmm neeed to look at that, no idea

[@womble321]

Hope your OK and have a good Christmas.

[@TheSybermedic]

Awesome and informative as always, keep up the great work.

[@badhippo]

Another truthful potshot at World of Wanks

[@StoneCresent]

I don't mind fake/original tanks in games as long as they are clear on what's historical, what's fiction, and what's in between.

[@dermotrooney9584]

How come nothing for 7 months? Can other geeks help?

[@WozWozEre]

I'd like an EKAF stamp.

[@sultanbev]

I do like these revisting WG hashjobs, more Cold War prototype histories are always welcome! So the 120mm would have had APDS, any data on it's performance?

[@Thekilleroftanks]

likely on par with early 120 apfsds, just worse slopping pen.

[@luvr381]

WoT is so pretend now, I just want them to introduce Bolos.

[@stoob.5767]

you should cover the LkPz 70 K as well then

[@wyld_wolfwin]

Top quality series. Entertaining to see what's going on in wargaming's mind

[@T_PLAYER]

it reminds me of one of the swiss chansard tanks, the chansard 11 (if it even is that things name)

[@theonlymann1485]

oh, that's a cool concept of a tank gun.. was like"ok so how does this differ from oscilating turrets" and then saw the gun could tilt sideways as well to accomodate for uneven terrain. that's why theres a some sort of a "gun mount" on the outer turret and the inner turret being basket-shaped to fit in. very cool. also germans designing cool engines, nice... cant believe engie boosters are actual thing for *tanks* kpz-70 in blitz also was pretty much gutted to be in tier 9 as well(base horsepower being 1500->750) so... sad idk

[@hoplophobia7014]

I hope you come back and make more videos

[@ahmedalsadik]

Absent for months after this video. COINCIDENCE?

[@theonlymann1485]

hey... also, @armoredarchives, if you dont mind, can there be a study of spaced armor and the effect of kinetic/chemical energy rounds on them, if you might? I know you have done british trials on spaced armor, thankfully, but wanting some cold war testing, if any of there is, since i overheard that spaced armor doesn't really stop the metal-jet of the bigger HEAT shells, and rather disrupts enough of the kinetic energy of the rounds to stop them prematurely. wondering about some info of this, as well as numbers if possible... even if not, thanks for taking your time and making these kind of videos. thanks.

[@adamskinner5868]

Thanks, u made me laugh n I'm still grinning like a fool at some of your comments. I was a huge WoT fan for many years but then moved on to Warships and now Warplanes as the tanks got ever more op with ever more powerful guns n ammo n ever more armor n mobility. I loved the game for the first 5 years LOL. Thanks for the content u produce, I think it's great.

[@dandel351]

WarGaming really needs to change the name of the game to World of Bullshit . Same goes in World of Warships with the subs they added to the game. Have you ever heard of a WW2 era sub capable of a sustained submerged speed of 30 knots and armed with homing torpedoes ???

[@armouredarchives8867]

homing torpedos for certain both german and UK had them, but defeated easily by foxxer systems - accounted for a few kills tho. but 30knots. no. there were some that could hit 24knots surfaced. and even fewer at 20knots submerged

[@RedXlV]

@@armouredarchives8867 The homing torpedoes that existed in World War II were also short-ranged and slow. The ones in World of Warships are a lot more akin to modern wire-guided torpedoes. Could be worse, though. In the initial test server version, they were straight up moving like Mark 48 ADCAPs. What actually ended up in the game is merely annoying rather than being outright broken.

[@armouredarchives8867]

yeah obs they went and made a dog dinner out of it, its WG related. but it was jutst to clarify such things did at least exist.

[@staredsky]

Wargaming: only good to farm the playerbase

[@vanguard9067]

Once there was effective stabilized firing on the move, casemated tanks were too seriously disadvantaged in all but the most defensive situations.

[@stevenbreach2561]

There's something very "Marder"about the hull of this pretend panzer🤔🇧🇴Another interesting article,always enthusiastically awaited👍👍

[@strategicmind2652]

It looks like a mix of an IKV 91 and a manticor (WGs light), it's so sad how WG can butcher interesting vehicles and just roll the dice and say sounds good enough when they have the documents at hand.

[@stephenwarhurst6615]

Bloody Wargaming rewriting history all just for the sake of making money

[@AusTankieGaming]

Well knowing WoT they may add rockets for that burst speed 🤣🤣🤣🤣 Edit - Seriously if players are confused then the degree of intelligence ...... Oh wait it's WoT playerbase you have a point.

[@warhawk4494]

You ok man??? Haven't heard from you in a bit @ Armored Archives

[@SRDPS2]

Bro just turned a thing into monster instead META 💀

[@btbd2785]

thats the biggest issue with Wargaming. They either screw up the name or make up a bunch of fake tanks, etc, etc...

[@FinsburyPhil]

Excellent rant Ed. You really don't like them do you?!

[@Bored_Kaga]

This is why I can't trust sources when they have something to do with World of Tanks man...

[@Tordogor]

Wonderful historical and technical analysis of these fake AFVs. Perhaps I am a little pretentious, but may you put somewhere any relevant references? As a Mech Engineer (although eorking more on Fluids/Thermo than other stuff) I love reading these kind of arcane documents.

[@tomblackburn840]

If I had a nickel for every MBT WG made worse and then added as a Tank Destroyer, I'd have two nickels, which isn't a lot but it's infuriating that it happened twice

[@blue_beephang-glider5417]

What was the M5 Stuart doing in combat D-Day and after???

[@TrangleC]

Wait.... is this Eddie's channel, Jingle's friend? The voice sounds different, but the man shown in the photograph at the end, sitting in a chair and reading books, looks exactly like him.

[@Taffer-bx7uc]

never understand why WG just makes stuff up and instead of just going what was made or prototype.

[@comentedonakeyboard]

Pfizers little known Gun Upgrade package🤫

[@mttspiii]

WG you cowards, you already have a tank with some of the most exciting mechanics, and give us a totally basic one in its shape? Give us our blue-flame-spouting German rocket tank with a funky-turning turret that pops off when you go beyond 40° inclination

[@mattp2557]

6:18 is it me or does the back half look like the tiger 1 ( turret and hull)

[@jeffjeff6077]

I'd like to see the War Thunder version. Morbid curiosity really.

[@AlexRoivas]

Last video. RIP

[@allanrowland130]

Liked it, want more.

[@fw-190]

Just saying I am here from Coneofarc

[@cpawp]

The develepoment was one of the late 60ies, beginning 70ies, as I see. The flag. shown at 9.52min ist not by far a German flag of the democratic aera (1972) - looks like one of Imperial German times.

[@MFitz12]

If at some point we could get off the gaming rants (which are useful) and back to reality, personally I would be keen on a history of the FV 4030 series of tanks for Iran. This was obviously a huge and lucrative program in its day that eventually resulted in the Challenger series, but there isn't a ton of information out there about it.

[@oz314]

It's been a year, have you decided to no longer make videos?

[@captiannemo1587]

Woo hoo

[@Shadowofthesoldier]

reminds me of their completely-off interpretation on the Batignolles-Chatillon 12 Tonnes... I own books and obtained unclassified archives about the hull design of the prototype... and they managed to get every aspect of it wrong. That's when I started really doubting the game...

[@vanguard9067]

CV90 with rotating turret? But how do you get a round into the breach (what breech?)? With a raised barrel? I don’t think so.

[@armouredarchives8867]

not sure where u are gettign cv90 from. - the magazine is from from below. pretty easy

[@vanguard9067]

@@armouredarchives8867 it looks LIKE a CV90. As other people said it looked LIKE it took inspiration from other fighting vehicles. Nothing more Look at the drawing/images at :25, a straight line down the center of the barrel would take the breech into the turret ceiling/wall, with insufficient length to slide in a round.

[@armouredarchives8867]

imgur.com/a/wnBdQWa the autoloader loads the magazine from below -

[@vanguard9067]

@@armouredarchives8867 I know. look at the drawings and the tiny amount of room in the turret for autoloader, horizontally sliding breech block, rammer, recoil, and ejection operations. Looking at the drawings and photos of the turret showing the center of the bore, the gun (with breech) intersects the roof of the turret. So clearly there is not room for any angle of depression. I mean it’s only a made up tank for a game, it’s not like it would ever be developed in real life from these drawings, so it is really not a big deal.

[@armouredarchives8867]

well they did make one. the previous vehicle. the gun does not recoil its rigidly mounted. - think of it as a rifle with a magazine below. the rounds are under the breech area, fed from the bottom. - the gun itself does not depress or rise so it has no need to move up or down, the whol turret tilts up and down like and occilatign turret, but in 3 axis. they already made a workign one 6 years prior that worked.

[@harrierrex3688]

this coulod be a heavy tank a tier X one those armor are thicc and gun depresion 12 degree...

[@bikedoc4145]

WOT will come up with anything as long as they can put inside a loot box or sale in their Battle Pass 🤣

[@sylvainvanduyl6143]

Hello chap How are you doing mate?

[@iatsd]

Point to the doll where WarGaming touched you, and then we'll make the bad men go away

[@joonasnaski9513]

Hello. cone sent me

[@zorin234]

Hopefully the console can make this a proper tank for it's Cold war mode. PC continues to try to shove CW stuff fighting WW2 stuff.

[@dukwdriver2909]

Good of you to point out how the gaming industry distorts the truth in favour of income. Now, please return to your video on wheeled armoured vehicles that states a fluid flywheel allowed the same speed in reverse as forward. RUBBISH. A fluid flywheel alloyed the use of a pre-selective gearbox only. Forward or reverse were achieved by a separate conventional gear train that utilised all the main gearbox ratios from the output shaft. Austin Champ has 5 forward and 5 reverse gears but a conventional single dry plate clutch. London Transport RT type buses from 1938 could not drive backwards as fast as forwards despite having fluid flywheels. Just a tip from an ex-squaddie, driver, mechanic with hands on experience of the vehicles in question. I also have the original military driver hand books should you wish proof. Keep up the good work.

[@janwitts2688]

Might as wellHave put rockets on

[@estianburger8709]

This is why war thunder is the better game

[@oskar_2114]

it's an arcade tank game, it's not supposed to be historical. changing the characteristics of a basically fictional vehicle is not that big of a deal

[@armouredarchives8867]

hows it fictional? odd that when they try to change things like tiger 105 which was far more 'fictional' than this people get up in arms

[@allanrowland130]

Go watch the previous video on the UK premium wheeled vehicle. Despite having all the information to make an accurate visual representation the only thing they got right was the number of wheels. The complaint is not changes made 'for the game' but that they can't even care enough to correctly represent the look.

[@oskar_2114]

@Armoured Archives that's war thunder innit? World of tanks has Japanese super heavys, which are *completely fictional*. I agree that some changes made to the tank in the video were unnecessary, but having a tier IX with a 24 round auto-reloader and auto-ricochet hull along with an inane power to weight and and top speed AND 12 degrees of gun-depression just wouldn't work in-game

[@oskar_2114]

@@armouredarchives8867 (and that's not even mentioning the ammo)....

[@matthiuskoenig3378]

The worst part is them playing it off as real. "it's an arcade game so they can change the characteristics and still pretend it's accurate." is a poor arguement.

[@genericpersonx333]

Always interested me how the lesser powers in NATO like Germany and Britain would keep trying to develop equipment for themselves locally when the big planners above them in NATO itself pretty much always assumed the lesser powers main job was slowing down invaders long enough for the Americans to flood the battlefield with their weapons. In other words, Germany and Britain spend a small fortune to develop a joint tank independent of the Americans, but their highest generals still expected the lion's share of the fighting would be done by American tanks. For sure, having local manufacture would be helpful, in case the Soviets managed to slow down shipping across the Atlantic, but this effort could have been focused on making a common tank for all of NATO.

[@mattbowden4996]

You have a very fucked up and wrong idea of how NATO was supposed to work. Britain, Germany and the US had to stop any WP invasion cold in it's tracks with the forces already in Germany - because if the war lasted "long enough for the Americans to flood the battlefield with their weapons" then the war would have already gone nuclear and that's the end of everything.

[@iatsd]

You do realise that the West German army was larger than anything the US had earmarked for NATO, right?

[@genericpersonx333]

​@@iatsd Two small problems with the Bundeswehr: 1.) It was a force composed mostly of mandatory-service conscripts, meaning only a relatively small fraction were fully-trained and combat-ready at any given point. Conscripts can fight well, but they generally need time to mobilize, especially reservists who have not been in uniform for years. 2.) West Germany, thanks to its geography, didn't have much space to work with, meaning it had little time to properly mobilize its potential manpower. Most every scenario NATO planners looked at that didn't end in nuclear annihilation saw most or all of West Germany wrecked and/or occupied within months. Even if German forces still held German ground, it would be contested ground being ruined by combat, with few, if any, civilian population centers unaffected. This means West Germany wouldn't be able to ensure its own factories would be available to arm whatever forces it managed to keep intact. That means West Germany would likely have to rely on outside suppliers to keep its armed forces fighting. That generally means the US of A, as it was (and is) the one NATO nation planning on not just arming itself for WW3, but also arming most of its allies as well, just as it did during WW2.

[@matthiuskoenig3378]

"but this effort could have been focused on making a common tank for all of NATO." they had different ideas of what a main battle tank should look like. Its one of the reasons why all these joint development programs failed.

[@MKRENB]

I don’t care about historical accuracy in World of Tanks at all. They should solve other issues but historical accuracy is one of the last things , I would complain about. And to be honest, it is quite obvious that the author of this video just is mad at Wargaming for whatever reason he legitimately has or not and likes to stick it to WG in this way. My advice would be to get over it, stop doing this kind of „WG s***s on historical accuracy“ videos and just go on make your normal, usually quite good content. This kind of video just let you look like a bitter person who has problems with his Ex-Employer or whatever that working relationship was.

[@armouredarchives8867]

i only get pissey at the spread of misinfomation - i dont gripe about their gameplay or balance or other creative differences thats their bag. but if the truth is not out their even in small channels, then its quickly forgotten and re-written, so much has been already lost though sloppy research, bad writing and outright fabrications in the past that the subject on tanks is already a mess and its only going to get worse over the next 10 years or so

[@battleaxe51]

It's a game. wtf

[@armouredarchives8867]

because it was part of a real and criticaly important project. but when you lie and make up false history that information spreads, before long model makers and such are reproducing it, and then the lie becomes the truth and a little more history is lost.

[@edopt7204]

history virgins when arcade tank game that isnt supposed to be insanely realistic is innacurate 😱😱😱. go to war thunder for realizm.

[@derekjinks5640]

Why am I not surprised that WarGaming are full of shit? They've been like that since they started.

[@mattkelly6226]

At least at the start they kept it in check but now it's a fat kid in a candy store

[@Simon_Nonymous]

@@mattkelly6226 as an old player who was sort of there, yes they did start well-ish, but I gave up years ago as the fantasy premium types appeared

[@petethebastard]

Kool-ish .. but wait a second or ten! @3:53 +/-12 degrees? Where does the breach and recoil go at depression? ...Ludicrous!

[@swayingGrass]

the whole turret tilts

[@armouredarchives8867]

the whole turrret tilts not the breech

[@petethebastard]

@@armouredarchives8867 Oh... Now it makes sense! Cheers!

[@omuffin1854]

Go nitpick in War Thunder instead of on an arcade tank game