Kreia's Conundrums - Too Human

The difference between "You were afraid" and "You had no choice." Special thanks to Kostiantyn Lisovets for the donation and requesting this topic be covered.
Kreia's Conundrums - A Star Wars Explained Series Focusing on Kreia and Knights of the Old Republic.
Twitter: / papitoqinn
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Music used:
Deus Ex: Mankind Divivded - Michael McCann - Safehouse
Mass Effect - Jack Wall - Uncharted World
Shadowrun: Hong Kong - Jon Everist - Prosperity
The Witcher 3: Blood and Wine - Marcin Przybyłowicz - Lady of the Lake
Final Fantasy X - Nobuo Uematsu - Scenery of Spira
#StarWars #KOTOR2 #Expandeduniverse

[@kristosturambar7074]

Disney will never be able to make something as amazing or as deep as Knights of the old Republic 2

[@kristosturambar7074]

@@sloff5940 Some of the best games I played in the 2000s were Star Wars games like KOTOR, Rouge Squadron, BattleFront, Republic Commando, Empire at War, Jedi academy, Force Unleashed ect. So far since 2013 EA has brought us 2 shit battlefront games and Star Wars kinect. And they have exclusive rights till the end of time.

[@Zen-t2j]

Agreed

[@sandmasterflex]

I think it is possible. I can see the potential in the current rights. The story or Lord Mommid is a good example that the new writers can do good.

[@jasonleslie203]

I dont think anyone is even trying now a days.

[@jasonleslie203]

@M・4・8 unless it comes out on dvd I'll never see it. I dont have disney + but i was interested in it when i heard of it

[@AP-qr8en]

Makes sense. Most Jedi are brainwashed into not valuing their own lives over their duty to the Jedi or the force, but the Exile is unique in that way. She couldn’t give her life up for the Jedi code, unlike the masters at the end. She saw life without the force and was able to accept it rather than just die due to becoming so reliant on it

[@PapitoQinn]

Seems we're in agreement.

[@tweso1499]

I always wanted to pull of the “Dark Side Exile who spares the Jedi Masters and see what happens” approach. Thank you guv’na for the enlightenment

[@tweso1499]

*DAMN* IT TOOK ME THREE YEARS TO _START_ THIS PLAYTHROUGH?! 😂

[@derpingtoast]

this is my favourite series on youtube

[@PapitoQinn]

Commander Shepard, is that you?

[@gray607]

I know right

[@armandoalcb]

9:46 I'm not crying, you're crying. Great video, I have no words to describe my appreciation.

[@Maxbeedo2]

I just did a Dark Side playthrough in the past few weeks and the option to NOT fight Kavar or Vrook was not available. There were no dialogue options that allowed me to avoid a fight with them. This might have to to do with siding with the mercenaries on Dantooine or with Vaklu on Onderon, so you might be forced to do the "light side" story choices to even get to the "You had no choice" line (though then I don't know what the cutoff is to get it, just a certain level of DSP?). Zez Kai-Ell though is still reasonable on Nar Shaddaa, which seemed to fit considering he was the most similar to the Exile, though he still forces a fight on Dantooine later once he learns the other masters are dead. In regards to being human, it's interesting to think about where the tenets of the Jedi Order regarding relationships came from. Did they truly believe distancing themselves from others was a good way to maintain objectivity to make the best decisions? Or, given that catastrophes like at Malachor V can cause their deaths (or conversion to the dark side) through echoes, were they really just focused on their own survival? How can someone shut themselves off from others, yet hold onto enough compassion to act in the universe's best interests when it counts? Would you either know WHAT to do or HAVE the motivation to do it? This was the problem Revan had with the council, who had gone so "far down the LIGHT path" that they probably wouldn't have done anything about the Mandalorians at all, not wanting to get involved for the risk of forming connections that could be used against them. Eventually it seems that most Jedi cross the line between "I'm a human who wants to do good" and "Instrument of The Force", which basically turns them into passive observers, as their humanity has been replaced by The Force's will. Without being human, without free will, without connections to others, you would lack the motivation or understanding needed to make a positive difference in the universe. For a weird reference, I'm reminded of the multiplayer mechanics in Demon's Souls and Dark Souls. Becoming Human again allows you to summon others for help, but also makes you vulnerable to invasions from players trying to kill you. It's a risk you have to take if you want that "connection" with someone else. Clearly the Jedi though the risk was always too great.

[@DawningEnd]

Went majorly (but not completely) Dark with my playthrough, I think it's about who you sided with at those points. Or it's possible that it has to be those AND with a certain cut-off point with DSP. Part of my few gripes with KotOR II is the heavy lean to dark or light to be strong on your own - much like Kreia's lesson about strength, I had Hanharr easily wipe out a lot of late-game enemies and now I've kind of hit a roadblock with Kreia without him to use now. As for those thoughts about the Jedi, I feel like they really had just gone that far into being The Force's instruments, moreso than being afraid of death, especially since you see quite a number of them be able to help or train others as a Force Ghost, while as far as I know, Sith that become Force Ghosts are less common. They *use* the Force, but do not submit themselves wholly to it until they either die or would be faced with death if they did not let it keep them alive. They regard it more like a tool while Jedi...well, for want of a better comparison, it's like a religion with them. Being one with the Force is like a state of ascended being for them, which might also explain the tendency of a few to be able to see themselves as "above others," whether malicious or not, while still alive and training to reach that state. As their creed goes, "there is no death, there is the Force." So it feels less like concern for their own well-being and more concern about disrupting the order of the galaxy, and as Atris said at one point, about how their actions may be able to breed contempt and hatred where there was none before, but they fail to realize how inaction may foster those emotions, and worse, make them more intense by than picking a "wrong" course of action. For me, that demonstrates their perceived superiority even more - the galaxy does not spiral into chaos because they are detached, but because others will not follow their example, that they must be "educated" to be the same way. In face of such dogmatic belief, it is not important that they survive, but that they are right, even if it must be onto their dying breaths that they refuse to see the world through the eyes of another.

[@DawningEnd]

Though, for fairness' sake, I will admit my knowledge is somewhat limited. KotOR I and II are basically my only deep looks into the Sith and Jedi ideologies, I'm not much of a lore hound, and the original movies that most know obviously center themselves a bit more on action. So feel free to take my thoughts on the Jedi with a grain of salt.

[@cyberninjazero5659]

I did a run where the only Dark Side decision was helping Vaklu. The same thing happened. Kavar would not stand down no matter what I said and during the reunion the other two attacked me. You kill one Jedi Master you kill them all. That's how the game is written

[@movieknightproductions4786]

These videos are really helping me combat my depression each morning. Thank you Papito, the Dark Side is a little easier to resist thanks to you!

[@PapitoQinn]

That's great to hear. Don't let it win. Hang in there.

[@julianp14]

That last part when you talk about humanity and life, made me remember when your companions faced Kreia in Malachor V and she warned them (especially Mikal who was fighting her, or trying to lol) about risking their lives for somebody else. This is very interesting. I have played this game a lot of times since my first walkthrough in 2008, but never have I realised how this game touches that humanity-jedi/sith duality, and how being human is somehow even better or stronger than adhering to one of those two codes.

[@petermozuraitis5219]

This video reminds me of a lot of thoughts and feelings I have when I think of the movie Titanic. Kreia seals the Jedi Masters from the force, and they have to choose between life without the force or choose death because they have fallen so far from their platform of power. In the epilogue of Titanic, the stock market collapse is mentioned, Hockley, the billionaire Rose is betrothed to, chooses death and kills himself rather than live in a world where he has no money, he has no power. Much like the Jedi Masters, take away their source of power, of authority, and what's left ? All external sources of influence, all their silk clothes taken away and only the person is laid bare, and there is nothing so see. They have no internal skills to fall back on, and they know it. Also this video references the super ego and ID dynamic, which also appears vividly in the Titanic movie. When Jack steals Rose away to join the party on the lower deck. First class are in their tuxedos and regal dresses, eating caviar and cake, listening to the cello and violin; high culture. A nurtured, groomed and sought after ideal, but it's dry, dull and boring. Below deck, underwater, in the subconscious is where the passions lie, and life is being Lived (with a capital L), it may be squalor, but it was the most fun Rose had in her life, and in the end she chose that life. A life of internal riches, not external ones

[@harmonica7064]

Good point. Power is that which remains after everything has been taken from you.

[@SirVyre]

The way I always took that portion of Kreia's dialogue was that the situation had forced the Exile to go against their own beliefs. To choose their identity over that bestowed by a code or creed. Since the dialogue differs depending on your choices throughout the game, it is meant to be a foil. The Light side shatters the conception of the Jedi Code, whereas the Dark lays bare the fact that a Sith Lord was made to kneel (And while the given past is that you acted as a Jedi Knight, there are dialogue choices within the game to say that you had already fallen during the war). In this story what Kreia hates so much is that The Force manipulates Existence. The Exile's choice flies in the face of this manipulation by choosing their own existence and existence itself over The Force. The greatest of ironies is that we learn this by our journey with her, where it was ultimately The Force that manipulated her actions into the attempt to use The Exile to kill The Force. Except by The Exile embracing The Force again, we are instead used to kill Kreia by it.

[@DarkKaij]

Man, I just went back to KOTOR 2 this weekend. So much to question and refletc on life. Iknow now why this game had such a great impact on my life, especially in my young adulthood. This is a essencial game for those who love philosophy and reflect upon life itself. Just found out your channel and I am in love with the Kreia's Conundrums series. Masterfully executed! Amazing job!

[@nathang6376]

"Your life is the most valuable thing you will ever have, so live!"

[@MJSpiritual]

I haven't seen a game that has inspired such philosophical introspection and analysis that has continued so long after its release like this game. This is not only the greatest Star Wars story ever told, but its one of the greatest games ever made.

[@torik9300]

Oh wow! Well done, this a great one. I never played Meetra in a dark side profile so I learned something new today, plus anaylsis and breakdown was really good. And thanks to the guy/gal who suggested Papito do a vid on this, much appreciated.

[@comraddisc2783]

Thank you very much for the reply! To say this video gave me more questions than answers will be a great understatement. Special thanks for This War of Mine materials. This game is very important for me, because i beat another 11 bit studios' title, Frostpunk, on maximum difficulty (survival). Speaking about TWoM, i tried dozens of times to complete at least one scenario, and didn't manage to finish any. This game is my personal Malachor V, there's no doubt about that. Speaking about Revan's droid - i had no idea it contains such knowledge of both sith and jedi orders. I always ignored speaking with it (like, speaking about something beyond visible topics).

[@PapitoQinn]

It's your Malachor V you say. Did it change you in any way. Apparently it did a lot of people who played it. And you definitely should speak to HK-47. He has a lot to say, but in a more logical way. Check out my HK-47 playlist and you'll see.

[@Marunius]

This channel deserves so many more subs. Beautiful. I wish you could become a consultant on the upcoming Kotor movies maybe then there would be a chance for them to be any good. We should petition for that online haha!

[@PapitoQinn]

I don't know about that. Like you said, this channel doesn't have *that* many subs. But hey, if you think I should have more subs, see if you can tell people about it.

[@Zen-t2j]

I love your videos I watch them after meditating. I love philosophy, thank you brother

[@PapitoQinn]

Thanks, man. I should start meditating before and after writing.

[@Zen-t2j]

@@PapitoQinn yes man you should! There is a meditation app I use that's great, it's called "insight timer" let me know if you download it. You can add me on it!

[@chriscoursey3927]

These always make my day and make me think of the wider aspects of the Star-wars Universe. Thank you.

[@PapitoQinn]

You're welcome. Tell your friends.

[@luisaguilar2416]

Wow great deep analogy from many perspective. Always looking forward to seeing This videos.

[@isobelduncan]

Kind of off topic, but I love the background music you use for your videos. It’s oddly soothing.

[@PapitoQinn]

Thanks, man. I try to do my best when it comes to the music. I'm a big music fan.

[@go_better]

Thanks! Very interesting series.

[@derekchambers9368]

Thanks! For the beautiful voice music share at 9:35, and for your life, your inspirations... For existence... All life is precious

[@PapitoQinn]

Wow! Thank you so very much, man! I do my best to use fitting music in these.

[@derekchambers9368]

The music was well executed with the point you made, we always have a choice. - When deprived of choice we are often left with no choice. (We all have our choices to make. - Jim Raynor) - Starcraft 2 wings of liberty - A discussion I had last night with my fiance is a villain often wants to break others. - sometimes to find meaning or purpose in life as it may have been passed down by another... Carrying or passing down a legacy of pain... Or memory. However Kreia did these things to push the exile out of a style of complaciency, recognizing the cycle of madness. Your videos are top notch. Thanks again for each quality made video. I was hoping you could provide the vocal music link for prosperity@@PapitoQinn

[@PapitoQinn]

@@derekchambers9368 Absolutely. Here you go, and thank you again for the generous support! kzbin.info/www/bejne/fWK1aXeKZs2lbs0

[@sennewam]

Nice Code Geass reference there ;) "LIVE!!!!!!!!!"

[@percussionfellow6168]

2:50. My man, I will always like ME music.

[@Dresqus]

Finally i know how to achieve this dialoge option! Thank u so much Papito!!!

[@PapitoQinn]

You're welcome.

[@mr.vorrnyvorrn2516]

1:02 In my headcanon, Kreia says to the exile that he had no choice, even though he was light side/neutral, and that the exile is a Malachor mutant.

[@PapitoQinn]

Mutant?

[@mr.vorrnyvorrn2516]

@@PapitoQinn Yes. In my headcanon, the exile became a mutant since Malachor V. He absorbed the energy from Malachor V, positive, neutral, and negative energies. They turned him into a powerful giant, but his heart remains the same. Almost. He is kinda inspired by the Werehog from Sonic Unleashed.

[@nevrhasa85]

i didnt realize this even i played the game zillion times. Thanks man for all comments and work. I like your work. if i could i would donate but unfortunately i cannot. Lets take the dream further :) . i think you and avellone need to work together for a new star wars film, series game or whatever. anyway its a dream :) Thanks to your work Papito Qinn

[@PapitoQinn]

Thanks, man. That would be something. But Avellone's a genius. I'm just a guy telling people what I took from the game. For all I know Chris Avellone might watch one of my videos and say it's all bullshit.

[@nevrhasa85]

@@PapitoQinn hahah he can very well. But he can also say that you are a great commenter. You see what others cant. Thats why he wouldnt discard you quickly i think. Some writers need some outside opinion to improve and correct their story.

[@darthrevan3342]

Revan was all about mastering his emotions using them as a tool....

[@PapitoQinn]

Why do you say that?

[@darthrevan3342]

Because if you go full eùotion unleash you go like malak....... And Revan hated Malak especialy after the Telos incident... (Malak nuke the only planet cappable of growing food in abaondance iwthin the sector) If you go full unchecked emotions you no longer contrôle the dark side but get controlled by it.You loose the baility to reason...... Wich is to revan a precious ability.

[@brandonontama2415]

And eventually become an sith killing millions of people.

[@cyberninjazero5659]

The Jedi are Buddhist (focused on Ascension and detachment) while the Force itself is Taoist (valuing both transcendence and the material world) that's why both the light and dark side work.

[@zero3045]

Ironic. How so many people feel that Kreia opened their eyes only to find they were simply fluttering.

[@beskamir5977]

Curiously, in the Revan novel both Revan and Meetra seem okay with dying in their attempt to stop the Sith threat. Revan even remarks that Scourge being a Sith wouldn't be used to sacrificing himself like Jedi are taught to do.

[@starwarzchik112]

Well, yes, but the novel is bantha fodder.

[@cyberninjazero5659]

@@starwarzchik112 it's pure poodoo

[@devmin_dot_exe6551]

CyberNinjaZero Revan is to the Exile what TLJ is to Luke

[@Garmagic2yFhenrakh9]

That is what happens when you turn a great story into a MMO.

[@ddespoth78]

Fantastic series you have here!

[@PapitoQinn]

Thank you. Tell your friends.

[@donavinkeyes6539]

Love this..

[@PapitoQinn]

Thank you..

[@EthanMorgan87]

3:50 those attributes though!

[@PapitoQinn]

Yeah they fell off a truck. That's how I speed my way through the game and find everything I can for videos.

[@beskamir5977]

Cheats or save game edits cause once you've played the story enough times you just wanna make an OP character and have fun tearing through your enemies.

[@darthrevan3342]

I recomand you hegelian dialectic the slaver and master dialectic but from hegel not Nietzche

[@hk9034]

I still think you should make an audiobook in regards to Kreia’s Conomdrums.

[@PapitoQinn]

An audiobook? But it's not a book. Do you mean compile them all into a single voice file?

[@kingnamor7777]

@@PapitoQinn This is among one of my favorite videos on Kotor 2. On your channel and I appreciate you making this video:-)

[@kingnamor7777]

@@PapitoQinn The ensuing death and destruction on Malachor V, particularly that of the comrades and Jedi's that the Exiled had befriended during the war. Caused such a substantial wound in the Force that the shock would have killed the Exiled had he/she not unconsciously, and instinctively, severed her/his own connection to the Force. Thereafter The Exiled was deafened to the Force's call; incapable of sensing it through the interference caused by the Force, echoes of the suffering that The Exiled had inflicted and been forced to witness. The Exiled can either be subconscious, unconscious or not consciously aware that he/she instinctively severed her/his own connection.

[@lorenzoalistaire3257]

Great content

[@guudnewdle6910]

I thought Darth Nihilus survived Malachor V without cutting himself of from the force

[@PapitoQinn]

Indeed he did. The Exile would have died because of all the force bonds she had. Nihilus had no such bonds.

[@EricGraham94]

@@PapitoQinn That's when she instinctively used the lesson of strength. The Exile got stronger because of all the Force-induced bonds she had, but if she held on, she would've died when the Mass Shadow Generator was activated. She willingly cut off her source of strength just to survive, a decision the Jedi Council found abominable.

[@michaelandreipalon359]

The title sure made me think of that video game of the same name... not a fan of that game, though. (I prefer PC/player character over MC/main character. Way more natural, and because you're among a lot of main characters in games.) Addendum: Oh, nice, you also love Final Fantasy X, GitS, and Code Geass.

[@ragingraven2746]

HP Lovecraft

[@totallynuts7595]

Yeah, Lovercraft's qoute is very famous, but he really isn't the only writer to use the fear of the unkown. It doesn't even have to be in a horror novel...

[@callahanfolt6460]

whew i always kill the jedi master after knowing them was such a jerk never knew there was difference betwen LS and DS

[@darksidedelta]

First i want to thank you for your video. both Kotor games are amazing together. 5:00 We are a human *Species* not a *Race* , the difference is vast and most people do this error. It would be like saying dogs are all *litteraly* the same (race). (of course dogs differences are easier to reconize then humans mainly because they had much more time to evolve (shorter lifetime and more breeding; also humans had alot of influence in their distinction contrary to the wolves who praticaly stayed overall the same in their appearance as their ancestors). 4:38 Also no one likes War (except maybe those who are untouched by it and gain profits). But sometimes it's "necessery" or the correct word would be *unavoidable* because societies or beliefs system are different, their views of life and their existent brings them in direction confrontation over one and other maybe they are both wrong or none are wrong, just different. The Universe is about Life; and life is about struggle and Evolution of individuals and civilizations. Without war they would be no confrontration, only stagnation ! How would a tyranny be beaten or a conflict be solved if there is no more debate ? Stagnation brings only decadence with overzealous enjoyment on material values; all at at the expense of our spiritual value. life (as an individual) for simple humans maybe meaningless. But " *Life* " (organism and all lifeforms), the Laws of the Universe that permits its existence is more then simply material enjoyment. There is a goal behind it and if not then the Universe was created or created itself for nothing...And that is abhorrent to any decent logical mind because it only brings depression; and that in the long term it means unavoidable collapse of humans, that any lifeform achievements is meaningless.

[@mikaelantonkurki]

I have thought about Kreia and have finally constructed why i personally don't agree with her. Let's look this through the two of her closest real life equals. Nietche and Aynn Rand. 1. Aynn Rand believed in the Idea of Rational Egotism. But the problem is that 'rational' part because i don't there is such a thing or it cannot be relied on like Rand wants it to be humans possess compulsions that they cannot repress and as such do irrational things to their own dedrament. Kreia has no right to call out my decission to tell the two thugs to jump of a cliff i was merely excersising my own will and authority the way i wished. Is there in my opinion an objective morality: YES but not enough to work in Rand's Egotism 2. Nietche. "No price is too high for the priveledge of owning yourself." Even if that price is the death of the world because that is what is see. and as for his ubermench. I don't think there is such a thing. I don't think there is a man who trancends.

[@EricGraham94]

There is a lot of Rand's philosophy I disagree with, especially in regards to Objectivism. It's impossible for people to be objective about everything, including morality. Objectivity implies we're completely external to a human world's affairs, but we're all human. What we all perceive as our reality is viewed through our own lens, either in certain extremes or nuances. As for Nietzsche, a lot of his philosophy is spoken metaphorically. If you think back to Ludwig Feuerbach's belief that God is an anthropological projection of the human experience, it's something that Nietzsche further touches upon in Book II of Beyond Good and Evil. The Christian God and how it's perceived is all based on how the religion's devout disciples and followers think. At the time Nietzsche was writing his philosophies, the Jewish people were viewed as sub-human by the German people; as such, they believed that they were far more powerful as a collective for not seeking out power like the "blonde lion" Germans did (this ties into slave and master morality). The Jewish people, in their vitriolic hatred of powerful men, believed that the Judeo-Christian God would've brought justice upon the powerful and given them eternal happiness after death. The Christian God essentially teaches its followers to be anti-life, that you have to abide by the whims and will of the collective or face punishment and live with a "bad conscience" for indulging in selfish desires and individuality. In another mythological/religious example, Nietzsche made another analogy with the Olympian Gods from Greek mythology. The Ancient Greeks always envisioned the Olympian Gods as reigning over their own domain and enacted their will whenever they felt necessary. They were projections of the Greeks back then: the scientists, philosophers, and warriors; whenever they felt the need to take, kill or mate, they just did it without having any regrets. People who live in Western civilization especially believe, similarly to the Jews of 19th century Germany, that any act of harm inflicted upon others is an act of anti-life when that's far from it; we can never understand what life is if we don't understand death or harm. So when people like Eli Wiesel ask "Why does God let this happen to us," it kinda hurts my soul. Are we really living in a human experience if we are to just be content with living in daily monotony? The Ubermensch is essentially to answer to what we perceive as "God" or a "deity." Nietzsche describes an Ubermensch, an over-man (not Superman), as someone who's mastered their consciousness and will and inflicts his will and power without regret, without letting the masses drag him down. In terms of human experience, I feel I can look up to Nietzsche's philosophy more. In a way, Nietzsche wants us, as individuals, to live up to our own potential and maximize it instead of being content with being what we call now a "normie." Humans were meant to be explorers, not content with abiding by the wills of the masses.

[@fiddlesticks7245]

I love your videos but honestly seeing Meetra Surik makes me want to gag. The TORtanic interpretation of the Exile unironically deserves nothing but apathy, and we know what apathy is. Drew either had no clue what to do with him or Bioware was actively trying to undercut the Exile's character with what they did to him. Space Jesus is the real exile, not some Revan groupee with Scourge's lightsaber in her spine

[@PapitoQinn]

Thanks. But as far a name goes, Meetra Surik is as good as any. I also won't have to keep saying "his/her." But I discuss her identity from the perspective of KOTOR 2. I've never played TOR, so I can't speak from that perspective even if I wanted to.

[@realBatman-89]

@@PapitoQinn Novel adjacent

[@call99P]

You sound like Bao Dur

[@TheViktorPutin]

another wonderful video. you're a blessing to youtube and the internet in general. glad you're keeping the spirit of this game alive.

[@PapitoQinn]

Thanks, man. I wouldn't go that far though. Maybe just a blessing to the game. Since I'm keeping it relevant.

[@TheViktorPutin]

Papito Qinn good distinction, and a true one.

[@heretowatchvideos100]

I never knew this wow.