Krimson KB Reacts - The Nihilism of Hermes - FFXIV Endwalker MSQ

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[@tenjenk]

A friend made me realize something during our time in Elpis. Something to note if you look around is that just about everyone there has someone. They have best friends, a group of close peers or lovers. you'll see this with NPCs you interact with, those hanging around, resting, those in side quests and even fates. Except Hermes, who is utterly alone. who has no one due to his feelings of alienation from being able to see an issue in his society that none others around seem to realize or care about. He lost oppurtunities to connect like the woman fascinated with his work who obviously adores him too. The feeling makes him feel like an abberation. But because he became unsocial and distant, he lacks a network of peers to bounce his ideas off and improve his work, a lack of outside perspectives to realize the flaws in his projects. Which has die consequences when it came to the errors in his intentions for Meteoin and the question he gave her or mistakes he made due to his own personal issues, like keeping her emotionally immature so she wouldnt "bind" herself to etherys.

[@Momojli]

that's why we told him we would find the answer together next time ;-;

[@acgearsandarms1343]

It’s amazing how calm Hythlodaeus is even with the gravity of the situation.

[@rexex345]

Why do you think he's such a good friend for emet and Azem? He's the level headed calm one

[@harukai7044]

Well, he was technically the one nominated for the seat in the Convocation and not Emet. He definitely possess more outstanding talents other than his ability to see aether compositions.

[@ADKV95]

@@harukai7044 Dang, sometimes I forget he's supposed to be Emet Selch, not Hades, he's just the kind that seems to dislike responsibilities so he pushed that to Hades.

[@DawnAfternoon]

He's not entirely useless.

[@nikkifoster9943]

​@@ADKV95 that's a hilarity of Hythlodaeus he's lazy as shit and that's the only reason he picked Hades for the role 😂

[@rexex345]

It's worth pointing out, what Hermes and Meteion are showcasing is fatalism, the idea that there is no meaning in life because everything is predetermined to end. Nihilism is actually the philosophy that is showcased in Shadowbringers as the concluded approach of the scions, that there is no meaning inherently in our lives thus we definevit ourselves. Neither philosophy is inherently bad, but the way they are concluded from shows an inherent bias towards pessimism and optimism that they respectively possess based on environment. With eitheris, the status quo and disposition of things leans heavily towards nihilism being the positive.

[@KrimsonKB]

Boi I am not changing the title lol

[@roetheboat1]

Rather than Fatalism, I'd suggest that they showcase Existential Nihilism. Fatalism is the idea that there is no such thing as "Free Will", and that we do not decide our own actions. Existential Nihilism is the idea that life has no intrinsic meaning or value, and that as a result living beings have no purpose. That's why Hydaelyn's theme is "Answers", because she is actively searching for the answer to Meteion's question about the absurdity of having a meaning in your life when you consider the nature of existence. To quote Alan Pratt: "The common thread in the literature of the existentialists is coping with the emotional anguish arising from our confrontation with nothingness, and they expended great energy responding to the question of whether surviving it was possible. Their answer was a qualified 'Yes,' advocating a formula of passionate commitment and impassive stoicism." I think the Ea are the closest we see in terms of Fatalism, as they discovered the concept of the heat death of the universe and ended up deciding that their pursuit of knowledge was pointless since that would be the end of the universe. But neither the dragons nor the Omicron were in a similar position. The Omicron in particular had fallen to despair after realizing that their overriding purpose in life, to become the strongest, may have been flawed from the very beginning and then developing the fear that as a result of becoming stronger they had sacrificed their innate "spark" of ingenuity and creativity.

[@jmstover]

I would agree with Meteion, and how the Meteia ended up. I still disagree with Hermes though. From my view, Hermes cared too much about the life around him, not that life was meaningless. Seeing it needlessly destroyed. I think if Hermes actual believed in Fatalism, then he would have left with Meteion not stayed to fight what she was bringing to the world. Hermes was hopeful that man would learn to value all life. But was disillusioned by the world around him that only valued those creations deemed valuable to the Star. Anything else could be destroyed without care. Remember Emet-Selch (paraphrase): "I don't consider you alive, ergo it is not murder if I kill you" --- Now take that same view on a planetary level. With all of the creations. Hermes was probably a lost cause being sent to Elpis and seeing all of the different creations, and their destructions... even when he didn't believe the destruction to be valid. *Edit:* Even Fandanial/Amon says something like "The man I was would be revolted at the man I've become." .... Amon fell whole heartedly in with his Emperor. Death is the only salvation.

[@GrahamChapman]

You're confusing nihilism with existentialism: Nihilism -- etymologically rooted in the word "nihilo", meaning "nothingness" -- just holds that there is no meaning to anything, inherently or not, and that there is no meaning in defining our lives as having some kinda subjective meaning on our own. Contrast that with existentialism that holds that there may not be any inherent meaning in life but that we, ourselves, can define the meaning to our own lives.

[@LunaticThinker]

Thank you. I always facepalm when people call Hermes a nihilist.

[@AzureKyle]

I knew she would have something to do with the Final Days the moment they mentioned her ability to manipulate Dynamis, because we already knew the Final Days was connected to it. The moment she started communicating with her other selves, I was like "Here it is." And then there was this moment for the final confirmation.

[@shinobirecords2018]

While Hermes did horrible things, I'll always feel bad whenever someone doesn't show the slightest shred of empathy towards him. It's oh-so-easy, calling someone names because they're trying to seek out answers to the unanswerable. Or rather, what they have arbitrarily decided has no answer. If we cannot find an answer to something, how can we know that there is none? And no one is apparently allowed to be anything less than content with their life, judging by certain reactions. Sure, Hermes shouldn't have aided Meteion in starting the Final Days, that much is a no brainer. His borderline depression doesn't enable that in any way. But I draw the line at people blaming him for trying to seek answers in any way. That lack of empathy is precisely how you push depressed people into committing to dumb courses of actions like how Hermes did, because they feel like no one is gonna make an effort to understand them until it's too late.

[@thetraveler611]

Indeed, his wish to seek out the answer shouldn't be blamed, and I wonder if things will be different if Hermes met with those "weird" ancients like Venat and the last Azem before he failed and fell.

[@tsuribachi]

As someone with experience with depression, I wholeheartly agree. many said "don't be sad", "just try to be happy". Nope, that's not going to work, it only makes you feel not undertood, even more isolated. Also, Meteion's change of color really seal it with me, because that's how I would describe my depression: "it's like everything is painted black"

[@markup6394]

I dont think Hermes/Fandanial was against any "status quo", rather he was against the callousness with which his fellow researchers would kill creatures (there is a very nice side quest in Elpis adressing this, so check them out :) ) they deemed "unworthy". To him every life, whether born or created, had value in itself for itself, and it wasnt mankind's place to judge. Okay, yes, he questions the status quo ^^° Still, check out those quests :)

[@Vendacator]

At least he had his conviction in what he did

[@Chaser547]

As painful as this was for our WoL how much worse do you think it would have felt if we'd somehow managed to become unsundered? All those memories of the past rushing forth and a desire to tell your friends in an effort to save them but knowing you couldn't as things were set in motion. Cause Emet cut and dry states that we look like their current Azem (even if due to our racial differences in size there are some variation to ourself) when we met at the beginning.

[@AFKei]

We're not off this train yet, folks! There's the big finale of this arc.

[@cparle87]

"Tell me... just one thing." No! Don't do it! Nothing good can come of this! Yes, chat. Stop asking her those subjective questions! She can't handle it! 2:30. That black smoky glow is NEVER a good thing. Someone stop her now! 3:10. Yeah, chat. We know that glow, we should do something. "And it will be beautiful." Yup, there it is. 6:05 Stop her Hermes, do something! 11:20 Oh hell yeah! Feels so good to have Emet-Selch bringing out the big chunga magics on our side this one. 13:10 What I figure is since she's dynamis powered once she was away from the planet in the upper atmosphere she could tap into the dynamis in space and supercharge herself. 14:27 Yeah, taking an Ancient's magic head on unguarded. Ow. We remember, yup. Only us and Venat. Remember the conversation where Venat said she couldn't imagine doing what Hydaelyn did, but conceded that circumstances change, of course? Welp, here it is. 18:00 Yeah, love the chat. Grats Hermes, you've f'd up on so many levels we've lost track. 18:10 Oh fucking shit. The talk with Vrtra!? When he asked Midgardsormr why he picked our world to live on, Middy called it "the last bastion of hope." How many of the worlds Meteion visited did Middy pass by and go nope? 22:33 Oof. My heart. 24:15 Emet is such a mood.

[@wrathofautumn]

Is...this the Flame of Frenzy? Dear God...let Chaos take the world....let Chaos take the world...

[@MidnightLucario1]

To think, all this happened cause of one flawed question

[@theguiltyplayer9207]

Meteion does monologue and gets shadow effects. Me: I think we found the cause o_0

[@CombativeMedic]

This was my, "Yoko Taro, you back?" moment.

[@MegaTurkeylips]

Let's send thousands of the most innocent, sensitive, empathetic creatures into a dead universe to determine the meaning of life. Plus the fool has given them the power to channel the most plentiful force in the universe. Nothing to worry about here.

[@RealWorldGaming]

He’s lost the will to live

[@thetraveler611]

If he was he would just let meteion killed him at that point, but Hermes isn't convinced, so he determined to stay and see the trial through. Amon is the one that was greatly influenced by Xander, and determined to make everything dead.

[@Kumiko026]

Hythlodeaus is best boi. My word

[@sweepingtime]

Remember, birdgirls in FF14 are dangerous.

[@Bannedchan]

Thanks Hermes

[@cesarreynoso8366]

So you mean to tell me we're fighting the wannabe leader of PETA and his emotional support bird?

[@arekusudino1545]

"Hermes no...!" "HERMES YES!"

[@jcharitat3002]

I don't feel bad for Hermes, despite the sympathy the story is trying to make us feel for him. He says that Mankind does not deserve to live because of its careless disregard for the sanctity of the life that they create, and yet, he does the exact same thing. He creates untold thousands of a sentient being with untold empathic abilities, then sends them out into the cold and unforgiving darkness of space to make the long and solitary journey to other worlds. And then there is the flawed premise of his question: "What is the reason for living?" There are so many things wrong with such a question, but the biggest is the extremely moronic belief that there is only one answer in all of existence. And then there is Meteion. As Emet-Selch said, Hermes made no provisions for an unfavorable outcome. That doesn't even get to the callous disregard for her mental state by not even considering her coming across a planetary catastrophe or war. And the gestalt consciousness only compounded this as she encountered more and more dead or dying worlds. It's possible that many could have turned things around, but they all ended up perishing because Meteion hastened their demise regardless. Hermes deserves no sympathy, because he singlehandedly created what almost became the end of all life in the universe.

[@Derpinator01]

Hermes may have started out sympathetic, but he refused to take responsibility for harming Metion's psyche, deciding to double down on his "us vs. Amaurot" mentality instead of admitting his mistake or listening to other perspectives. The Hermes we first meet would 100% agree with Emet-Selch's retort to Metion's destructive nihilism, but the Hermes of Ktisis Hyperboreia only heard a challenge of his judgement.

[@BlackfangDragon]

I think it’s telling Meteion knew something bad would happen if she told him, and actively tried to flee to stop it. The poor girl put him before everything, yet he couldn’t see beyond his own desire.

[@Arksimon2k]

No, not "Poor Hermes"! This dude messed up with Meteion's design, and the question he wanted answered, but to then side with her after her resolution was to end all life made me lose all sympathy. Why? Because he got sad from killing his creations? The only Ancient with a conscience? It's a bit of a leap from "save the animals" to "destroying all life is the best way". This is where Endwalker started to lose me tbh. I liked Meteion until I found out this is her purpose in the story. Emet and Hythlo still best buddies though.

[@KrimsonKB]

K

[@Arksimon2k]

@@KrimsonKB I'm just ranting. Hope you enjoyed it still.

[@BlackfangDragon]

I love Meteion because it’s basically showing how stupid it would be to force children to answer the meaning of life through adults. The most functional and stable of them couldn’t even handle being in the same room as Hermes without having a breakdown, and he sent them into SPACE!? Without teaching them anything so they could survive? Like even Ancients teach their children. Hermes wouldn’t even do that.

[@Arksimon2k]

@@BlackfangDragon Oh yeah I don't think Meteion deserves any blame at all. And starbirb is best birb.

[@BlackfangDragon]

@@RopeDrink Not really. Emets deal in SB was as much about trying to convince himself as it was others, and it was his failures to protect his people and his feelings that he must do everything in his power to save those who sacrificed themselves. The problem people had with Hermes is that he was the one running Elpis, yet he never did anything to improve it, never grew beyond or saw the world and it’s sights. A fact Endwalker even makes note that Emet had traversed the world to help Azem whenever they were in need, and even after the Sundering still saw the world, and his concern was always about helping those who needed it. Hermes never did it. He never expanded his horizons, never tried to grow out of his shell, and threw literal+metaphorical children into the void expecting others to raise them. Ultimately it was more about HIS feelings on the matter more than anything, and his need for answers was more important than the pain and suffering of Meteion. I seriously wish people wouldn’t act like these two are really that similar, especially when Hermes eventually gave up on people, while Emet never did and that’s what kept Emet going.