Kudo Breaks Magic the Gathering’s Layers!

[@ZzrzZ2012]

"That has to be one of the dumbest rulings ever..."

[@RipPullRepeat]

@@ZzrzZ2012 😂

[@martinthernlund]

I used to be a level 1 judge, and this gave me anxiety.

[@walters8748]

1st time I ever felt like someone casted phasing on me mid vid…

[@punishedcranky]

Gonna save this one for the future

[@RipPullRepeat]

Please do 😊

[@tallynnyntyg6008]

Well, in that case... Shock.

[@zackpumpkinhead8882]

Kudo is going in every single one of my GW control decks from now on

[@RipPullRepeat]

It’s a very strong effect

[@mymarshlands]

would it be different if kudo had the effects split up into 2 paragraphs? "other ceatures are bears. other creatures have base power 2/2."

[@popy-kk9fn]

I believe so, yes

[@RipPullRepeat]

@@mymarshlands yes splitting the ability would stop this from playing out with Kudo’s ability still working

[@VaticToxic]

So, could you blink your commander (Not Kudo) in this instance to remove it being a bear?

[@byronsmothers8064]

So by trying to turn the bear off without shutting him off, I'll just make him one step harder to remove?

[@extra2042]

Magic has fallen. Billions must scry.

[@CharlesLeeRay812]

That's it f**k this game. Oko vs Magnus of the Moon, Opalescence vs Humility, Chains of mephistopheles needs a flow chart to be understood, now this... I'm out. I'm selling all my cards and playing Uno from now on!!

[@zackpumpkinhead8882]

Nope, dependencies. (I'll link to the article when I'm done. I haven't memorized the specific rule numbers.) Vraska makes the bear lose all card types abilities except the type and subtype artifact and treasure and the ability {T}, sacrifice this artifact, ad 1 mana of any color. This includes all static abilities, keywords, and triggered abilities, and effectively removes the text box of the creature entirely. This ALSO removes the static ability the bear had to make all creatures bears. If we apply the bear's static ability first, then Vraska's ability second, the bear's static ability will be removed since it loses all abilities. No matter the order in which we apply these effects, the outcome will be the same. If we apply Vraska's ability first, the bear will lose all abilities and we will no longer check to see if its ability applies, since it has no abilities. Therefore, the bear's ability _depends_ on Vraska's, since Vraska's ability determines whether or not the bear's ability applies. Some examples - If the creature had or was given indestructible it would lose indestructible and could be destroyed by a Disenchant. If she targeted a Nyxbloom Ancient or a Vorinclex, Voice Of Hunger, that permanent's controller would not be able to double or triple their mana once Vraska's ability resolves, and Vorinclex would no longer prevent its controler's opponents' lands from untapping. The channel _Judging For the Win_ helped me out significantly with rulings and layers and all that stuff. Here is the comprehensive introduction to dependencies. outsidetheasylum.blog/dependency/

[@RipPullRepeat]

Are you saying this doesn’t work? I’ve ran this interaction among multiple L2s and this interaction is how I laid it out 😊

[@zackpumpkinhead8882]

​@RipPullRepeat Sorry. I'll elaborate. I gave a poor explanation. (I don't mean to insult the judges, or your ruling here. Of course, I'm not perfect, but I believe you're incorrect.) Remember that the effect given by Kudo is an ability, even though it's not a trigger like many cards have on etb, upkeep, death, etc. They're all removed with Vraska's effect. There are simmilar effects to Vraska, like Darksteel Mutation, Song Of The Dryads, and Frogify, which also remove all continuous effects of the creature in play. This ruling doesn't use layers or dependencies either. Just a misinterpretation on what counts as an ability or not. I hope this clears things up.

[@zackpumpkinhead8882]

Wait no you're right I looked up the Bello interaction on scryfall and it works much like this. God, why even play Humility anymore? Where's the fun in it? I guess you could theoretically phase the commander out with an Oubliette-style effect... then protect the Oubliette with a Sterling Grove or a Greater Auramancy...

[@lordglitch4266]

So, wait, does that make his effect immune to song of the dryads and darksteel mutation type pseudo-removal? Or is it Vraska treasuring specifically that Kudo continues to apply through?

[@RipPullRepeat]

@@lordglitch4266 song of dryads creates a dependency so it will override kudos ability

[@marpj6138]

@@RipPullRepeat As someone that loves Song of Dryads thank you for the clarification

[@seandun7083]

Song applies specifically because it removes abilities via setting the basic land type, meaning it applies in the same layer (L4: type changing). Compare that to Imprisoned in the Moon which also turns it into a land, but then removes abilities later through an effect that removes abilities (layer 6).

[@cdmonmcginn7561]

i now have a headache

[@KusinagiRasuke]

I've been dealing with this card for a week straight with my group, and we came across the issue of (Traproot Kami) "This creatures Toughness is equal to the number of Forests in play." Does that mean Kudo makes it a 2/X or 2/2 based on layering?

[@seandun7083]

Traproot Kami is a characteristic defining ability. They are generally denoted by having a * in the p/t, or being an effect that sets the p/t of a newly created token. Layer 7, which contains power and toughness modifying effects, is broken up into 4 sub layers. 7a is characteristic defining abilities. These will basically tell you a value that you should consider to be printed on the card. They generally are accompanied by a * in the p/t, but also include setting the p/t of a newly created token. Traproot Kami is one of these. 7b is effects that set the power and toughness to a specific value. These will generally say a card's "base" p/t is set to an amount. I believe effects that animate non creatures will also apply here (Mutavault or Opalescence). Kudo is one of these. 7c is effects that add or subtract p/t (+1/+1 counters, Glorious Anthem, Giant Growth, etc). 7d is effects that swap p/t (Twisted Image, etc). TLDR, it will be a 2/2 since Kudo applies after Traproot.

[@KusinagiRasuke]

@seandun7083 thank you. You also added the rule layer so I can show my friends and get them to stop bickering about it.

[@seandun7083]

@@KusinagiRasuke no problem. If you want the specific rules for the sublayers of layer 7, they are described in 613.4 a-d in the rules.

[@AdamPaulTalks]

The Stack For Life

[@ImrazorZodd]

Sometimes I really hate this game. :D

[@Aaron.Seabolt]

All of these comments and nobody is going to talk about the boxes being stacked with the big gas station cup that’s by the player using the planeswalker?

[@Kapkap117]

Honestly I would rather just ask everyone to rule 0 and ignore layer rules unless we actually need them. Half the time they seem unnecessary and just don't make sense

[@carolinedavis8339]

See, that's the thing. 99% of the time, they don't matter. The problem is, the 1% of the time they do, they matter A Lot(TM). The layer rules are much like state-based action rules, they mostly clean up some under the hood stuff. It's only very specific cards that throw wrenches into the system, namely stuff like Humility, Kudo, and Blood Moon, things that change things on multiple layers at once.

[@marpj6138]

The thing is they make sense in pretty much every situation, but those situations you dont look at layer rules since it works as you expect they to work (aka they are the engine making what you think should happen actually happen). The problem is the 1% of cases where the ability itself creates a bug within the rules and you need to actually look at how they will interact

[@craigandrews7544]

The fuck …

[@MagusKain]

wut

[@AKitchell]

Layers are dumb and overcomplicated. Dumb it down, WOTC, _please!_

[@QuicksilverSG]

This video is no exaggeration, "layers" are retconned, rules-lawyering bullshit. Play the game straight, using updated card errata (NOT "rulings", ERRATA), and such disputes are unambiguously resolved. Continuous effects persist only so long as their source or target remain in play. In the case of planeswalkers, continuous effects triggered by a Loyalty ability persist only until the end of the turn in which that Loyalty ability is played. (Otherwise you would have to keep track of every goddam Loyalty ability that was played in every fucking turn of the game.) Kudo, King Among Bears makes all other creatures Bears with base power 2/2. This continuous effect persists so long as either Kudo or each of his targets remain in play. Vraska, Betrayal's Sting's second Loyalty ability turns a target creature into a Treasure artifact continuously until either the turn ends or either source or target exit play. Once Vraska's continuous effect ends, the target creature reverts back to being a Bear with base power 2/2.