MTGs HARDEST rule is actually EASY - Let me explain: Layers for Beginners

[@andrewerickson2922]

This is the most in-depth beginners guide ever

[@attackoncardboard]

It was one of those rulings where I couldn't not talk about just Layers, I had to include Timestamps and Dependencies, just to make sure everyone had all the info they needed, but I'm pretty confident I presented the info in a way that was easily digestible :)

[@NerdJake]

I was so proud of myself having mastered the stack and priority, now I watch this and it's really humiliating to admit to be a beginner, but you're right 😢

[@TheThiccestChungus]

Have you ever tried to learn unity?

[@attackoncardboard]

@@TheThiccestChungus Not yet. I'm currently learning After Effects as right now I just do everything in Premiere 😅😅

[@iurifale7324]

​@@NerdJakee 1qq no Zé azzx😢😅😅

[@JiorujiDerako]

This is why, when I was a judge, I had a card in my pocket at all times that listed out the layer order :D I think over the few years I judged at events, I only ever had to refer to the layers rules a couple of times, but it was (IMO) the most complicated portion of the rules to keep memorized! I also still remember Humilty + Opalescence (and increasingly complicated additions to that combo, like adding a second Humility, etc) being a popular topic and challenge among judges when it was a particularly slow evening :P Luckily that was an interaction that never came up in any tournament, Legacy/Vintage players tend to not be the sorts to bring meme "stump a judge" decks to official tournaments. (Commander players on the other hand not so much, but at the time, a lot of the players I knew who had Commander/EDH decks _were_ judges)

[@blitZeero]

I had another favourite interaction involving Blood Moon: together with Conversion and creating dependencies AFTER the timestamp order was determined by simply playing a land

[@Brass319]

So, wait, hold on, the video never mentions this, but wouldn't opalescence being played first cause humility to remove all abilities from all enchantments when it enters the field, including itself???? or something like that ?????? but then, because opalescence has been turned off, it no longer is affected and regains its abilities in theory at least???????????

[@attackoncardboard]

@@Brass319 When the Layers "program" runs, it goes through each of the layers one at a time. Once it's applied one layer, it gets locked in and the 'program' doesn't go back to previous layers to change anything. Lower layers cant effect upper layers. Opalescence effects Layers 4 and 7. Humility effects Layers 6 and 7. So we apply in order -> 4 - Enchantments become creatures, 6 - Creatures lose abilities, 7 - Creature P/t settings, but we have two effects trying to apply here, so time stamps kick in.

[@thomasgryboski8978]

i feel like the only reason this whole thing feels so complicated is because ability removal is on too late of a layer leading to removed abilities still applying

[@gingyplays9843]

Here's a fun example of layers colossus hammer makes creature lose flying but gets +10/10 so if you want a flying hammer you've got to equip an equipment that gives flying after you equipment hammer

[@attackoncardboard]

Heck yeah! Timestamps!

[@mateumitjans5281]

So the timestamps there depend on when the equipment entered the battlefield or on which was equiped first/last??

[@attackoncardboard]

When the equipment ETBs it gets a time stamp and when it equips, it gets a new one.

[@chrisvainio]

Having a card in your pocket is a great idea. I would actually like to see the steps of the turn and tips cards pop-up in draft packs more often than the “magic minigame“ cards. A card on the stack, or even a card on the layers would be a great thing to include.

[@mydadgaveupopcorn]

I scoop these up all the time. Have a whole commander sized deck box of them I keep with me in my bag for new players. If someone brings their significant other or a friend and they're just watching, I'll pass them one too. I also have a teaching kit I keep with me for between rounds. Best way to get new players into the game: have the resources to show them without making it complicated.

[@jettblade]

Really helpful even for an experienced player like myself. Been playing for almost 20 years and still haven't gotten explanations as clear as this video was. This can be a really complicated game and its nice to see explanations like this to help clear confusion.

[@attackoncardboard]

That's the goal of this channel. Taking "complicated" rules, and breaking them down so they're easier to digest :)

[@greenemperor1604]

I've been playing magic with my friend for 11 years and have never heard of Layers until now. This is why people say the game's too complicated to start playing. That doesn't make sense when you say it. Both are static effects. So when looking at it and reading it. it seems that it would lose the ability lol wow how very insightful ❤

[@NerdJake]

When you formulate the question and while formulating it you see where your thinking eas wrong :D Really good video, I had no idea about these rules! Didnt even know they exist! Thanks a lot!!!

[@attackoncardboard]

😊

[@koalafridge4170]

What happens if two cards with continuous effects on the same layer that aren’t dependent on the other come into play at the same time. For example, say you cast a Brilliant Restoration that returns both Levitation and Mystic Decree from your graveyard to the battlefield at the same time. Would creatures you control have or not have flying?

[@attackoncardboard]

I'm glad you brought this up, as I didnt have time to add this to the video as it was already long enough 😅 APNAP actually takes over. 613.7m If two or more objects would receive a timestamp simultaneously, such as by entering a zone simultaneously or becoming attached simultaneously, their relative timestamps are determined in APNAP order (see rule 101.4). Objects controlled by the active player (or owned by the active player, if they have no controller) have an earlier relative timestamp in the order of that player’s choice, followed by each other player in turn order.

[@koalafridge4170]

Oh wow so in this case the person reanimating both of these enchantments would just get to choose which “comes in first”/has an earlier timestamp and thus would get to choose whether all of their creatures will have or not have flying?

[@attackoncardboard]

Yup, if they both come into play under the same persons control, they would get to choose the order 🙂

[@bariltrailette]

Instead like leyline of the void and blightsteel colossus you chose if blightsteel return to the deck or no that instead is a remplacement effect and dont touch the graveyard.

[@elenna_alexia]

@@koalafridge4170 this makes sense, since you also get to order triggers that occur simultaneously under your control.

[@kurts.7225]

The good this will do for the overall knowledge of the game is immense based solely on how easily it was broken down. I don't even think the TCC has a video like this. Tyvm and crowd-surf the Karn

[@loganator326]

Legitimately super informative, I'm glad someone finally laid it out in a way that's understandable

[@MoriBruno]

Amazing content! Also, the Ape Escape music in the background was 10/10!

[@attackoncardboard]

Thanks for taking the time to comment! 😊 Hope you enjoy the other videos 😁

[@Iceboundjester8]

I am happy you came up on my fyp! You videos are well thought out, educational, and beginner friendly. You pacing with starting the videos of in clear view of what’s to come is pleasant, and therapeutic. Something that most videos like these lack. Please keep up the work! I look forward to you and the community you grow!❤❤❤

[@attackoncardboard]

That's wonderful to hear 😁 I have such a passion for this game and I love helping people get more into it! 😀 If you've ever got any questions, I'm always reading the comments and I'm happy to help 🙂

[@marcuswehle1833]

That was incredibly helpful. I had no knowledge of these rules. I did not see some of the cards you showed in a game before. Now I know what to do when I see it.

[@attackoncardboard]

Glad I could help. Layers don't come up all too often, and I wouldn't expect anyone to remember the Layers list if they're playing casually, but it's a good thing to be aware of and keep in mind :)

[@Supernichtpatrick]

I really dislike that the dependency rule does not apply to earlier layers. Would that not make things simpler as the first example (making lands into mountaind) is clearly made way more complicated by the current layer rules? Maybe I am missing cases in which things are held together by this system.

[@sy-py]

If dependencies applied to earlier layers, humility and opalescence would create an undeterminable board state.

[@ganondorc8546]

​@@sy-py Could you elaborate? Maybe I just don't understand, but the way I interpret it, if dependencies would apply to earlier layers, nothing would change regarding the humility and opalescence interaction. Since they're on the same layer (power/toughness) and aren't dependent on one another, timestamps make the board state determinable here. Are you trying to say that the effect of humility is dependent on the fact that it's an enchantment? Because opalescence specifically states that it's still an enchantment, so there's no conflict or dependency here that I can tell.

[@LaurieCheers]

Then Humility's ability would depend on the Opalescences (because they change the set of creatures that can be humiliated), but the Opalescences abilities also depend on Humility (because it might remove the abilities). This is called a "dependency loop" and it can happen under the layer system too, but very rarely. Basically it's resolved by ignoring those dependencies and going back to timestamp order.

[@isaacking1524]

It would certainly be possible to design a better layer system that had fewer unintuitive results, but it's not trivial, and it's not important enough to Wizards for them to dedicate any effort towards.

[@isaacking1524]

@@sy-py That's not correct, the whole point of applying effects in a specific order is that there's always a well-defined end result. The only way in which the order matters is that it changes what that result is and whether it's one that humans will find intuitive.

[@KingQuetzal]

Does the example at 5:24 with Magus, Non-Basic, and Humility apply to subsequent non-basic lands played. Do they enter as mountains?

[@attackoncardboard]

Layers are constantly checked, updated and applied. With Magus of the Moon and Humility in play. Non-basic lands will still enter as Mountains.

[@polloshi]

I feel like you're doing most things right and it's just time until a weird rule pops up in tournament/for a popular streamer and you end up exploding in popularity. Which I hope you do, cus I love this channel

[@attackoncardboard]

Thanks 😊 I had that happen with March of the Machines 😅 I went from 300 to 1k subs very quickly. I noticed that nobody was talking about an interesting rules changes (tokens can now transform) and decided to talk about it and it's implications. Just need another one of those to happen 😂

[@DigitalAndInnovation]

1:40- this is the perfect use of the Will emoji!

[@kitsovereign4127]

The one thing I'd wish you'd touched on is *why* the layers are that order. Magus of the Moon + Humility make it confusing why you apply types before abilities, but it's easy to understand with Rise from the Grave + Death Baron. Layers are meant to provide intuitive answers for common scenarios, and definitive answers for tricky scenarios.

[@attackoncardboard]

That sounds like something for another video for sure. I only have a few examples where the game breaks if the order of Layers are changed. It's been brought up a couple of times, will definitely keep this in mind :)

[@ShinkuDragon]

​@@attackoncardboardreally in the end changing the order will "fix" some interactions, but create a problem backwards somewhere else. So in the end SOME cards have to lose.

[@Fuzzi999]

I'm still left questioning if a new nonbasic gets put into play after humility is out. Magus has no ability, will the new land put into play remain what it is or will it become a mountain

[@ganondorc8546]

@@Fuzzi999 I think it's still a mountain by my interpretation of the video - every time the board state is checked, you would apply the layers in order again, and so magus's would still be locked in despite another land entering.

[@ganondorc8546]

I think a better way to explain why the layers are in the order they are is to just think about why they'd be messed up if they weren't in that order. Like, how could you remove an ability from a creature if you didn't even know whether it was a creature or not (abilities layer being after the type layer makes sense here). Or, can I change the color of a permanent I control if I don't know whether I control it or not (control has to be a super early layer, of course)?

[@jarrybryant718]

Thank you so much for making this video:)

[@attackoncardboard]

😊

[@moocowp4970]

This is a great guide, but it's gonna be really hard to remember during a guide (particularly remembering the actual layers). It's obviously one thing for a judge to come in afterwards, check the rules, and say how something should work, it's another thing to think on the spot of how the interactions will work before you make your move. You'd have to study for this haha.

[@attackoncardboard]

It's not something that comes up too often, but it's good to know that this exists and is something to keep in the back of your mind :)

[@Dnallohes]

On one hand: excellent information. Truly useful. On the other hand: the title suggests that knowing this makes layers easy, and doesn't address the one thing that makes layers hard: there's so d*** many of them!

[@sy-py]

I mean, not really. Just seven, plus some sublayers

[@Dnallohes]

@@sy-py I’m glad seven’s not a lot to you. Without some pretty significant effort, I won’t be able to remember even what’s on the list, much less what order they occur in.

[@sy-py]

@@Dnallohes How much effort did it take you to memorize what order days of the week go in?

[@attackoncardboard]

When you edit a 10 minute layers video for 3 days straight, they stick after that 😂

[@justseffstuff3308]

@@sy-py I mean, about three years lol. I was three when I started really being able to talk fluently and six when I started being able to consistently get days of the week right. And days of the week are something that're used daily. You'll find a practical use for layers in VERY few games, and that's provided you play magic on a very frequent basis. Also, days of the week are learned at a very early age, and are dependent on many other things such as knowledge of time, so it's not a comparison that works. You seem like the kind of person who's too dependent on basic assumptions/"common sense" and prior learning, and less on present cognitive thought- there's not anything wrong with that, both methods have similar end results usually, but it's something to keep in mind when communicating with others. It's hard to find a good analog for the layers- I would say "phone numbers", since that's also remembering a sequence of 7 things, but on the other hand, numbers are much easier to memorize than complex subjects like "abilities" or "control" or "type".

[@oinkerbob2]

Fun fact: learning to operate within the stack at a Magic table helped me pick up the similar concept in my computer science classes. 🤓 Brilliant guide!

[@0321Dave]

Your channel is amazing! Thank you for these videos. This should be required viewing for all mtg players

[@attackoncardboard]

If there's anything else you would like to know, just ask :)

[@martinwood744]

8:08 You say that if a dependency exists, you always apply the DEPENDENT effect first. Then in the following example you apply the effect on which the dependent effect depends (Blood Moon's effect) first.

[@laedarian]

I really enjoy the subtle music in the background especially the song from Zelda. Also great video! But I'm still confused as a new-ish player and will probably always be, magic is hard!

[@attackoncardboard]

Feel free to let me know what you're confused on and I'm happy to try and explain again in the comments 🙂

[@jonw8697]

Im curious about the first example does that mean that every subsequent land that came into play after the humility are its regular land time since Magus of the Moon lost its ability? Or are the layers essentially constantly reapplying every time something is done?

[@patmacrotch5611]

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but the lands would be mountains. Time stamps only apply when determining which layer applies first. Playing a Strip Mine for example, it doesn’t have anything that is on the same layer as Magus’s effect. If you had a creature that had the ability “all non basic lands are swamps” and you played that with Magus on the field, then all non basic lands would be swamps because the magus would be applied first then the “swamp creature” would be applied next, making all non basic lands swamps. (I made up a creature for this example)

[@isaacking1524]

The layers are constantly applying; continuous effects do what the name implies and apply continuously. Any new lands will be Mountains.

[@d4N137SC]

Really great, you need more subs!

[@attackoncardboard]

Thank you 😊

[@rionnachelliot8951]

by the dependency rule you describe wouldn't that make magus of the moon turn off and return nonbasics to their original form? Since the static effect will no longer be in play because of humility? Or have I missed something significant? Sort of like how if we had an Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite a humility won't kill my creatures because they are turned to 1/1 at the same time as EN's -2/-2 debuff ability is turned off.

[@attackoncardboard]

Timestamps and Dependencies only come into play when we're looking at Effects trying to be applied in the *same* layer. Magus works on Layer 4 (Type) and Humility works on Layer 6 (Abilities) and 7 (Power and Toughness) :)

[@marshallscot]

​@attackoncardboard I don't think that answers his question. I think he's confused over the logical inconsistency of the ability not being there anymore, yet still applying. Logically, the continuous effect of Magus of the Moon should be checked for continuously. Like if we destroy the Magus, the effect goes away no?

[@psymar]

​@@marshallscotThe effect changes other cards, before the effect is removed from the card it's on. this does not undo the changes to the other cards.

[@scheikundeiscool4086]

@@marshallscot It just can't work that way cause then two cards that each say the other loses an ability would crash the game. There needs to be a time when things are applied. Layers are a solution to this. The trick to getting ist is not wondering why it was chosen to work like this but just doing it in order.

[@apiranha1]

I don’t feel like dependencies were explained well enough in this video. I understand the subtlety and can infer, but everything else was so defined I feel dependency was left behind. None the less you’ve blown my mind after 10 years of casual magic, thanks for this video! Ohhh..it’s fairly clear. Blood moon works whether or not urborg is there, and Urborg depends on blood moons timestamp, therefor blood moon takes priority. It’s clear. Again, thanks for the video

[@attackoncardboard]

That's it, you got it :)

[@apiranha1]

@@attackoncardboard Truly thanks for this video. I remember my first year finding out about the stack..this brought me RIGHT BACK to that time. Great stuff.

[@toddbussey5718]

> Urborg depends on blood moons timestamp Technically, it doesn't. The interaction is the same whether Blood Moon enters first or second. Before applying either effect in Later 4 we see if applying one would... - change the set of objects that the other would apply to... - change what the effect does to the set of objects it applies to... - cause the other effect to not exist if we were to apply Urborg first... - Blood Moon still applies to the same set of objects - Blood Moon still makes those objects Mountains - Blood Moon still has its effect but... if we were to apply Blood Moon first... - Urborg wouldn't have any abilities and its effect hasn't been applied yet so Blood Moon would remove the existence of Urborg's effect therefore dependency as a result Urborg has to wait for Blodd Moon to apply and once it does Urborg has no ability and no effect.

[@shutupandlisten1075]

4:50 what happens if you then remove magus of the moon? It has no ability so removing it should leave the command tower a mountain, but that just doesnt seem right.

[@attackoncardboard]

Continuous Effects are constantly checked and applied. Any time any action is taken, the game runs through the Layers list. If Magus gets removed, the Layers "Program" gets run again, but this time there's no Magus effect to apply at Layer 4, so non-basic lands will go back to normal :)

[@CloudsSword]

@@attackoncardboard How does the Magus work with a card like Witness Protection? Since Magus is Layer 4 and Witness Protection is Layer 6 would that not mean that there is no way at all to remove the Magus effect since any effect that would remove the magus ability would ALWAYS happen AFTER (layer 6) the Magus already changes non-basics to mountains (layer 4)? (I'm ignoring the Layer 7 P/T changes as they're not relevant to the question I assume)

[@isaacking1524]

@@CloudsSword WItness Protection removes abilities the same way Humility does, so it doesn't affect Magus of the Moon making things Mountains. I'm not sure what you mean by "no way at all to remove the Magus's effect", but in general that's not the case. For example, you could turn it into a copy of a vanilla creature using True Polymorph. Or you could turn it into a Mountain itself with Ashaya, Spreading Seas, and Trait Doctoring!

[@evdoke1]

Great video, and a great explanation! You should do one for replacement effects too; those can be tricky to understand.

[@attackoncardboard]

Who let you read my scripts folder?! 😂 It wont be the next one as that video is already 90% complete but maybe the one after that :)

[@Constrictor_Victor]

Gotta say, great presentation very clear and concise... but I think I'll just do my best to avoid these cards going forward. Gives me real pole position vibes from Yu-Gi-Oh.

[@attackoncardboard]

Complicated layers states don't come up too often, but if you're playing cards like Darksteel Mutation or Humble (effects that remove abilities) effects, it's always good to know how they interact with other permanents, especially Commander :)

[@jackkelley9657]

Gained a sub from me. Been playing for over a decade and this is the best breakdown I've seen.

[@attackoncardboard]

😊

[@nootnewt]

The Mario Kart music really caught me off guard. This was a very well-made video, and everything was explained clearly and consicely. I always look forward to and appreciate your rules videos, as a newer player

[@attackoncardboard]

Much appreciated! Glad you enjoyed it 😊

[@bladeworkzgames]

What layer would effects like Doran the Siege tower (an effect that makes creatures deal damage equal to their toughness instead of their power) apply on?

[@attackoncardboard]

Doran applies on an unofficial "8th" Layer, along with a bunch of other abilities. I'll be talking about this in my remanke of this video :)

[@Red_Mag3]

For other rules, I understand linked abilities and how they only reference the other ability they're tied to, but it should make logical sense that you could use the second part of a linked ability if you were able to otherwise fulfill its condition. Here's an example: Kheru Mind-Eater equipped with Kaldra Compleat that exiles another creature with combat damage should allow you to play the exiled card. It doesn't because of the rule on linked abilities, eventhough it makes sense to allow it if you read both cards.

[@attackoncardboard]

Ooo nice. I think I was kind of aware of this rule, just purely down to how many games I've played, but I would have never of known it was called "Linked Abilities". This looks like some good night time reading!

[@ganondorc8546]

607.5 for anybody else reading this: " If an object acquires a pair of linked abilities as part of the same effect, the abilities will be similarly linked to one another on that object even though they weren’t printed on that object. They can’t be linked to any other ability, regardless of what other abilities the object may currently have or may have had in the past. Example: _Arc-Slogger has the ability “{R}, Exile the top ten cards of your library: Arc-Slogger deals 2 damage to any target.” Sisters of Stone Death has the ability “{B}{G}: Exile target creature blocking or blocked by Sisters of Stone Death” and the ability “{2}{B}: Put a creature card exiled with Sisters of Stone Death onto the battlefield under your control.” Quicksilver Elemental has the ability “{U}: Quicksilver Elemental gains all activated abilities of target creature until end of turn.” If a player has Quicksilver Elemental gain Arc-Slogger’s ability, activates it, then has Quicksilver Elemental gain Sisters of Stone Death’s abilities, activates the exile ability, and then activates the return-to-the-battlefield ability, only the creature card Quicksilver Elemental exiled with Sisters of Stone Death’s ability can be returned to the battlefield. Creature cards Quicksilver Elemental exiled with Arc-Slogger’s ability can’t be returned._ " yeah, I agree that's silly, seems like it's actively working against good deck building

[@magusofthebargain]

Now that we understand the Layers, Timestamps, and Dependencies rulings, we can speculate that there might be a time when the rules committee decides to simplify the rules and do away with the counterintuitive Layers rules, leaving us only with Timestamps and Dependencies. Furthermore, Dependencies may not be necessary any more either, since they create an unnecessary complication in the rules system, leaving us only with Timestamps, APNAP, and the choice of the controller to apply effects to break ties. This would be the simplest version of the rules. But for now, I recommend learning the rules as they are and then relearning them when they change. I say "when" and not "if" because damage used to use the stack, interrupts used to exist, and the Legend rule has changed many times. Thanks again for making this clarification video, which I will now watch again.

[@sy-py]

Layers are unlikely to go. There used to be a time when only timestamps existed, and let me tell you, it was capital c confusing

[@isaacking1524]

@magusofthebargain I would encourage you to spend a while thinking about the consequences of those changes. Look up some cards with continuous effects and ask yourself what the result would be with no layers and no dependencies. You may be surprised. ;)

[@scheikundeiscool4086]

Now think about the absolut nightmare of haveing to memorise the entire order of when what card whit a contiues effect was played in a long comander game yikes. Give me layers over that option all the time

[@simplyyunak3189]

The magus of the moom + humility example still confuses me. Just sent this example of the cards to my friends and asked them if their nonbasic lands are Mountains. None of them said yes...

[@attackoncardboard]

It's certainly not intuitive, but that's how the layers work in MTG 😅

[@cousindonkeystudios872]

Yeah I got it wrong too at first cause I thought dependencies worked across different layers 😅

[@attackoncardboard]

Timestamps only matter when looking at Effects on the same layer, Dependencies are related to Timestamps. That's how I learn it :)

[@sy-py]

how many of them are judges tho?

[@simplyyunak3189]

@@sy-py none of them. Just a group of casual commander players

[@JohnMarston42]

If I would kill Magus of the Moon, he would be removed from play, and so would be his ability, right? Why would that turn the lands back, but removing just the ability does not? Also, what happens if Magus and Humility are in play and then Magus gets removed? Are the non-basic Mountains forever then?

[@attackoncardboard]

So think of Layers as a program that is constantly running in the background of your game. Any time something happens, the Layers "program" checks all the continuous effects and runs them through the Layers List. 613.5. The application of continuous effects as described by the layer system is continually and automatically performed by the game. All resulting changes to an object’s characteristics are instantaneous. To answer your questions, "If I [destroy/exile] Magus of the Moon, he would be removed from play, and so would be his ability, right?" - Yes, Correct. "Why would that turn the lands back, but removing just the ability does not?" If Magus of the Moon leaves play, their continuous effect also leaves. Removing Magus' ability with a Humility-like effect is the crux of the video, it's because of the Layers system. Because Magus' effect happens on Layer 4 and removing abilities happen on Layer 6, Magus' ability has already been applied to the game state and is locked. 613.6. If an effect should be applied in different layers and/or sublayers, the parts of the effect each apply in their appropriate ones. If an effect starts to apply in one layer and/or sublayer, it will continue to be applied to the same set of objects in each other applicable layer and/or sublayer, *even if the ability generating the effect is removed during this process.*

[@JohnMarston42]

@@attackoncardboard thanks very much for the answer 😊

[@VexylObby]

I think making the text on Magus disappear made it seem like it's effect was no longer at play. I would have made it's text float or faded to show that it's effect continues. Even then, I disagree with Wizards' rules on how this should happen in-game. @@attackoncardboard

[@attackoncardboard]

@@VexylObby thanks for the feedback. I'll take that on board for next time. In this example, Magus of the Moon does 100% have it's ability removed. Humility effectively removes the text from the card, but because of Layers, its effect has already been applied, so removing it's ability at Layer 6 does nothing.

[@VexylObby]

@@attackoncardboard I wonder if there are card examples as to why such a layer interaction MUST work like this. Otherwise, I wish MtG rules didn't let this happen.

[@petrri323]

In the example given with command tower, would a non-basic played into this board state become a mountain? Or would it remain as a non-basic with all of its effects because Magus of the Moon no longer has an ability?

[@attackoncardboard]

Any time anything happens, (changing phases, playing a land, casting a spell etc) the Layers "program" is ran and checked. If Magus is in play, the Command Tower *will* enter as a Mountain.

[@SloanWentzell]

im confused about how Humility turns into a 1/1 if it’s played after Opalescence. Layer 3 Type: Humility becomes a creature. Layer 6 Ability: Humility removes its own ability because it’s a creature now Layer 7 Power: Humility becomes a 4/4 first because opalescence was played first. but then Humility’s ability that turns it into a 1/1 no longer exists because it was removed on layer 6. so wouldnt it remain a 4/4?

[@TheEpicSpire]

i'm confused on this as well. but it also removes the ability to take away it's ability forcing an infinite cycle...

[@TelepathicWhale]

@@TheEpicSpire This is why it works like that, to my understanding. Humility "overrides" Opalescence because Humility has a newer Timestamp. Edit: The power / toughness clause, not the animating enchantment part.

[@SloanWentzell]

@@TelepathicWhale i think you're misunderstanding my confusion. if you do the layers in order, humility removes its own ability before it turns itself into a 1/1. by the time it would turn itself into a 1/1, it no longer has the ability to do so.

[@SloanWentzell]

i actually did find the answer though. it was easy to google search. "This is the current interaction between Humility and Opalescence: The type-changing effect applies at layer 4, but the rest happens in the applicable layers. The rest of it will apply even if the permanent loses its ability before it’s finished applying. So if Opalescence, Humility, and Worship are on the battlefield and Opalescence entered the battlefield before Humility, the following is true: Layer 4: Humility and Worship each become creatures that are still enchantments. (Opalescence). Layer 6: Humility and Worship each lose their abilities. (Humility) Layer 7b: Humility becomes 4/4 and Worship becomes 4/4. (Opalescence). Humility becomes 1/1 and Worship becomes 1/1 (Humility). But if Humility entered the battlefield before Opalescence, the following is true: Layer 4: Humility and Worship each become creatures that are still enchantments (Opalescence). Layer 6: Humility and Worship each lose their abilities (Humility). Layer 7b: Humility becomes 1/1 and Worship becomes 1/1 (Humility). Humility becomes 4/4 and Worship becomes 4/4 (Opalescence). (2009-10-01)" basically you can think of it like the stack. when all these continuous abilities are on the field, you read and take note of every single one of them BEFORE resolving any of them. This is similar to how if a creature has an etb effect, the effect will go on the stack. even if you kill the creature before the etb resolves and you can no longer read the etb effect anywhere on the battlefield, the etb will still resolve later. So, even though Humility removes its own ability that would turn it into a 1/1 on layer 6, you still have that ability marked down to resolve on layer 7.

[@isaacking1524]

It does remove its own ability, but that doesn't matter. Rule 613.6 says that since the effect started applying in layer 6, it can continue to apply in layer 7 and make everything a 1/1, even though the ability generating that effect has already been removed. Also, the type layer is layer 4, not 3. :)

[@bigredmonster19]

The ape escape music ties it all together

[@storeblaa]

I hate how magus and humility works cause it dosent mske intuitively sense, if a static ability is removed from a creature it should be removed from the state of the game

[@grafzeppelin4069]

Exactly. This is just an example of the "rules" being wrong. If a continuous effect is taken away, then the effect should stop applying. In other words, Magus of the Moon might "try" to change nonbasic lands into Mountains, but it needs to continuously apply in order to do so. For example, take Humility out of the equation completely, suppose it's just Magus & some lands - if Magus is destroyed, do all nonbasic lands remain Mountains while they're in play? Of course not, because the effect is no longer applying. The effect went away. The same should be true if Magus of the Moon's effect is taken away by Humility.

[@TheBroLuke]

THANK YOU!

[@VexylObby]

I think it is unintuitive, and Magus should not continue to make non-basic lands Mountains.

[@siosilvar]

This is one of the extremely few cases where it's unintuitive. The vast majority of the time, type changes coming before ability changes is helping you out by saying, yes, "other creatures you control have trample" does in fact apply to your Raging Ravine when you animate it.

[@VexylObby]

@@siosilvar IMO, if the source that had other creatures you control have trample" lost that ability, then my Raging Ravine should not have trample even after I animate it.

[@VexylObby]

@siosilvar Also, I don't see why we need layers for this interaction. Either the Ravine is a creature or not. And if it is, it is going to have trample. "Have" is the key word. Making it easy to know what has trample and what does not. Magus of the Moon should NOT make non-basic lands mountains when it loses its ability. The ability is lost, and no longer relevant. I say rely on time and when things happen in chronological order, and leave the rest up if effects are temporary or continuous.

[@siosilvar]

@@VexylObby That's actually how it will work - adding and removing abilities both are layer 6 and "other creatures you control have trample" would have a dependency here because losing that ability affects its existence, so you'd lose the ability and then not get trample. It's only stuff that affects the first five layers in some way that cheats its way past losing the ability.

[@siosilvar]

@@VexylObby Time is precisely why layers exist. If you go all on time, then animating Ravine and *then* dropping the trample lord would result in it not getting trample.

[@Varler_]

If there was a Magus of the Moon and Humility out and then someone played a non-basic land would that land still be a Mountain? Or would it enter as a non-basic land since the Magus no longer has that ability? (IE, does Magus still have its ability active but hidden under Humility or is it gone but the damage was already done so it only applied to old lands?)

[@attackoncardboard]

Layers are constantly checked, updated applied. When anything happens the "Layers Program" is run. So any new Non-basic lands will be Mountains

[@Varler_]

@@attackoncardboard Awesome, thanks for the answer! 😁

[@diggerdog9205]

See? Simple...

[@attackoncardboard]

Once you know what the layers mean and how to apply them, it really is 😁

[@vkaeru9692]

Great video ! What happens in the magus/command tower/humility example if the magus is removed from the battlefield ? Does the lands in play staying Mountains as far as they stay on the bf ?

[@attackoncardboard]

Layers are constantly checked, updated and applied. Any time anything happens the "layer program" runs. When Magus leaves the battlefield, so does their effect 🙂

[@Nienna_Asyare]

8:37 so I’m slightly confused here, is Blood Moon turning nonbasic lands into basic red (mountains) lands? And since they’re basic, they don’t have abilities?

[@attackoncardboard]

Blood Moon turns Non-basic lands into Non-basic Mountains. Mountains only have the ability "Tap: Add R"

[@jordyneves7089]

I have a question about the incarnations, what's wonder/anger timestap? When it goes to the graveyard? What if the player does not control the corresponding land type and plays one later? What if the land is blinked, does it get a new timestamp?

[@attackoncardboard]

Per the rulings for those cards, it's set when the card first enters the graveyard. It doesn't care if you control the land or not. "The timestamp for the "in your graveyard" ability is set at the time that this card goes to your graveyard, regardless of whether you control a Mountain at that time. " Hope that clears things up for you ☺️

[@Dow9399]

Beautiful. Thanks 🎉

[@David-km3fx]

Thank you for the video, I didn't know about the layers system! I have a question regarding the Humility/Opalescence interaction at 6:33 though: By the time Humility's effect is being applied in Layer 6 it has already become a creature. As its effect states "All creatures..." wouldn't it be dependent on itself? It seems to me like a paradoxical situation in which it would lose its ability only if it keeps its ability... if that makes sense.

[@attackoncardboard]

While in the video, I explained that Layers are applied step by step, they're technically applied all at once, at the same time. So Humility will end up being a 1/1 creature with no abilities (with Opalescence in play) but this is only after the layers are applied.

[@Tater8q3f]

Im confused as of why Magus's ability still exists even though its been removed. I understand the ordering of the layers, but once that ability is no longer on the table, why would the nonbasic lands remain nountains? You would think it would work the same way as removing the ability by removing the creature.

[@attackoncardboard]

Someone made a really good analogy earlier, so I'm stealing it. Imagine cards are Missile Silos, and Layers are the order we can fire Missiles. Magus of the Moon fires its missiles at Layer 4. And nukes all non-basic lands. Humility launches its missiles at Layer 6 to try and stop Magus, but it's too late. Magus as already fired its missiles. All Humility can do now is prevent any more firing of Missiles from Magus (and any other card). However because layers are constantly checked and applied, this scenario repeats anytime anything happens, so new lands entering play will still enter as Mountains.

[@Skeithalot]

Great explanation.

[@attackoncardboard]

Glad it was helpful! 😀

[@pummppkinn]

7:30 What would happen if Humility and Opalescence entered play at the same time? Like if you restarted the game with Karn Liberated and you began the game with both on the field. This is just one example I could think of how two permanents would enter play at the same time.

[@attackoncardboard]

APNAP takes over :) If you control both enchantments, you get to choose the Timestamp order. If you control one and your opponent controls the other, the order is Active Player, Non-Active Player.

[@mse326]

@@attackoncardboard Is it APNAP or reverse? Layering seems to resolve in order 1st to last. APNAP, as it applies to triggers at least, puts them on the stack 1st to last but that means resolves last to 1st. So which way does APNAP go here

[@attackoncardboard]

@@mse326 It's APNAP order to work out which effect has the earliest timestamp. The Active Player objects will have the earliest timestamp. 613.7m If two or more objects would receive a timestamp simultaneously, such as by entering a zone simultaneously or becoming attached simultaneously, their relative timestamps are determined in APNAP order (see rule 101.4). Objects controlled by the active player (or owned by the active player, if they have no controller) have an earlier relative timestamp in the order of that player’s choice, followed by each other player in turn order.

[@TroppoZump]

WOW I never knew this was a rhing at all. Thank you so much!

[@attackoncardboard]

Glad I could help 🙂

[@Beeromir]

I realize this video is over a year old now but I'm a bit confused about something. In the Timestamp example at 6:33 I would have figured it worked as follows: Layer 4 - Opalescence add "creature" Humility's type list. Layer 6 - Now that Humility is a creature, it causes itself to lose all abilities. Layer 7 - Opalescence now sets Humility's power and toughness to 4. Since Humility no longer has its abilities, it will not affect this layer and hence there is no conflict, eliminating the need for timestamp consideration. I'm also fairly new to layers, so I'm guessing there's something I'm missing? If anyone has any explanation as to why this logic is flawed, please let me know. EDIT: Forgot to mention - great video!

[@attackoncardboard]

I'm looking to remake this video in the near future 😁 But basically once a "block of Layers text" starts applying, it will apply the whole block even if the card loses all abilities. CR613.6 If Humility said: "Creatures lose all abilities. Creatures are 1/1s." Then the power and toughness Ability wouldn't apply in this example.

[@Beeromir]

@@attackoncardboard got it. Thanks for the clarification!

[@joem8507]

Fantastic guide. Can you elaborate more on dependencies. How blood moon interacts with Urborg.

[@GBH420]

Well done. Thanks.

[@AamariWilliams]

Just for my own clarification, in the Magus of the Moon example with Humility, if another non-basic land is played while both Magus and Humility are on board, does the the land still enter as a "mountain" or as whatever it is now that Humility is blanking Magus?

[@attackoncardboard]

Layers are constantly checked, updated and applied. With Magus of the Moon and Humility in play. Non-basic lands will still enter as Mountains :)

[@AamariWilliams]

@@attackoncardboard somehow I missed the constantly checked. Duh lol

[@TheGorillah]

Thanks man! In the case of Magnus of the Moon, Nonbasic Land and Humility - would every Nonbasic Land played after the Humility also end up as a mountain or would the play of Humility create a timestamp, after which the ability of Magnus of the Moon is not present anymore?

[@attackoncardboard]

Layers are checked and applied constantly and instantly. When you play a land, Layers will be checked and applied, so your non-basic lands will still be Mountains even after Humility is in play.

[@highlander7462]

Love the Ape Escape track.

[@BraveSirPaul]

Thanks for this, very helpful. So am I right in thinking if my opponent has a Maha, Its Feather's Night in play, and I have a 4 Constructs in play from Urza, Chief Artificer, that the constructs would become 5/1 creatures

[@attackoncardboard]

Correct, Characteristic defining abilities are always applied before power and toughness setting effects. Constructs start on 7a, Maha on 7b :) Edit - Im thinking of the wrong constructs. Correction below

[@BraveSirPaul]

@@attackoncardboard thanks - I asked this same question in the MTG discord, and they said because the constructs are written as 0/0 rather than * / * that they would be 5/5s with Maha out

[@attackoncardboard]

Sorry, I'm thinking of the wrong Constructs. The Constructs from Urza, Chief Artifice don't have CDAs, CDAs are always denoted with star/star. In this case they have an ability that increases or deceases power and toughness, that ability applies on Layer 7c, which is *after* Maha. So in this case, the Constructs would be 0/0s, then Maha applies, setting them to 0/1 then the Constructs ability applies giving them +1/+1 for each artifact you control/

[@dariokupper471]

So does the 'locking in' mean that any continuous effect from layers 1-5 will never be affected by an ability removing effect? So something like Darksteel Mutation just doesn't do anything to deal with Magus of the Moon?

[@attackoncardboard]

Correct. Layers above can't be affected by layers below. Song of the Dryads is one of the few continuous effects that can stop Magus. It comes into play at L4.

[@dariokupper471]

@@attackoncardboard Very interesting, thank you!

[@misterhorse8327]

Can you make a video on the stack?

[@jmbw4271]

Really clear explanation. thanks!

[@smeatar]

I feel like I have learnt all this stuff like 5 separate times over the years but then it comes up so rarely that I forget it all by the time it is relevant again

[@attackoncardboard]

Practise makes perfect. The only reason I remember it all is because I made this video 😂

[@Roll-Penut]

Question: why does the ability adding/removing effect not stop humility or opalescence from giving power/toughness since it applies in layer 6 and the power/toughness applies in layer 7?

[@siosilvar]

You finish applying the rest of an effect if you start applying any part of it. Rule 613.6

[@Sejotobi]

This was actually VERY informative holy shit.

[@attackoncardboard]

Hope you enjoyed it :) If there are any other rules you need a hand with let me know 😀

[@bernalilentejas7599]

Just a clarification on the Bloodmoon Urbog scenario, it was mentioned that Urbog's effect is dependent whether bloodmoon's effect is applied first, does that mean if bloodmoon was already in play and a turn later a player would play Urbog, lands will be swamps? TIA

[@attackoncardboard]

Layers are constantly checked, updated and applied. When Urborg ETB, Layers will be check, the layers will see a dependency between Urborg and Blood Moon. So Blood Moon will be applied first and remove Urborgs ability :)

[@ReinOfCats]

This makes me think of the card "Infinite Reflection" and its kind of busy text-box. If the card was reduced to something like "Each other nontoken creature you control is a copy of enchanted creature", then it sounds like it wouldn't actually affect creatures that are under your control only due to control effects (noting that Copy comes before the Control layer). Do I have that right? I'm guessing that's why the card is structured to have control be checked only at very specific moments (on trigger). Though, I wonder why those two layers are ordered in that way. What would be the implications if they were flipped?

[@isaacking1524]

That's correct! If layers 1 and 2 were swapped, what would happen if you played Copy Enchantment and copied Control Magic? :)

[@chapmanandchapmanproductio974]

Omg this is great !! U have no idea what any of those are !!!! Wooooo

[@attackoncardboard]

I'm confused, what are you responding to?

[@Timbobs]

I can’t wait for the “explaining where all these cards came from” video! That must have some complicated layers as wel…

[@GregJourdan]

This was great, thank you! I might still need some clarification on dependencies. Are we talking "anything from effect B that would change the effect of effect A?". That seems like it might be too broad? Also just double checking: dependency only applies within the same layer, right?

[@attackoncardboard]

So dependencies only come into play for effects on the same layer. The comp. rules tell us the exact meaning of a dependency: 613.8a An effect is said to “depend on” another if (a) it’s applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect; (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to; and (c) neither effect is from a characteristic-defining ability or both effects are from characteristic-defining abilities. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect. Effectively yes, if Effect A would change the outcome of Effect B, B is dependent on A, therefore apply A first.

[@catfishrob1]

I am not sure I have it right, but to me, an easier way to word it would be: "any effect that would alter another effect in the same layer if it came first, does come first."

[@pryocrazy]

In the example you gave with magus of the moon and humility, wouldnt it only keep the lands as mountains until the next time the board state was checked? if my opponent plays MotM, and i play Humility, all my non basic lands would be mountains by the end of the stack, but when i play a new non basic land, MotM would have no abilities, so the new land would not be a mountain, and because his effect was checked it would reset all my non-basics? Follow up question (assuming that im correct in my previous assumption) wouldnt me playing anything/changing phases check the board and change all my non-basic lands back to what they were, so the effect of having only mountains would only really effect my next card play in that phase?

[@sy-py]

The layers don't loop around. They start with each card's printed text and go down, layer by layer.

[@Chojan7189]

For the humility + opalescence I would have guessed that Humility would be a 4/4 but for another reason😅. I thought it would go like this: opalescence type change aplies first; the the ability removal from Humility happens making Humility creature not have any abilities; and then the power toughness setting comes in but only opalescence still have the ability so it becomes a 4/4. What am I missing?

[@patmacrotch5611]

That’s how it happens. Assuming Humility was played first then Opalescence. Opalescence makes enchantments into creatures. Humility makes all the creatures 1/1 with no abilities. Then Opalescence (because it doesn’t make itself a creature it doesn’t lose its abilities) makes all enchantment creatures power/toughness equal to there mana cost.

[@Chojan7189]

but in that case the timestamps don't matter right? we simply follow the layers

[@isaacking1524]

What you're missing is that removing Humility's abilities in layer 6 doesn't prevent it from modifying a creature's size in layer 7, because that effect already started to apply in layer 6. An effect will never "half apply". Even though its abilities have been removed, it can still set creatures to be 1/1s in layer 7. So you need timestamps to determine whether they'll be 1/1s or 4/4s.

[@patmacrotch5611]

@@Chojan7189 I think timestamp does matter. If Opalescence is played first, it would make the enchantments creatures. Then, It would make all enchantment creatures power/tough = to mana cost. Then Humility would make all creatures 1/1 with no abilities. Since making the power/toughness are the same layer, timestamp mattes for which one will apply in what order.

[@Timbobs]

Ok, question time: I have a deck with a lot of land animation. The deck sometimes also cares about creature colours and/or types. Say I have an Ambush Commander, stating: [Forests you control are 1/1 Green Elf creatures that are still lands] and I play an Animate Land on one of the forests which states: [Until e.o.t., target land becomes a 3/3 creature that’s still a land.]. The land becomes a 1/1 green elf first, and then a 3/3 creature. But, is it still green and an elf? If I play a Life and Limb, stating [All Forests and all Saprolings are 1/1 green Saproling creatures and Forest lands in addition to their other types.], with the ambush commander in play, it says [in addition to their other types] So they would become 1/1 green elf forest saprolings. But if I play the ambush commander after the life and limb, do the forest lose the saproling type because the ambush commander doesn’t state [in addition to their other types]? Also, are decks like these the reason I don’t get invited to commander nights anymore?

[@siosilvar]

Rule 205.1b - "still a land" is the same thing as "in addition to its other types". First example is a green 3/3 elf forest, second example is green 1/1 elf saproling forests regardless of order.

[@Timbobs]

@@siosilvar thanks! One card stating the “in addition to” and the other not had me confused, but it looks like it doesn’t really matter 😄 Now I wonder why one card uses that line and another doesn’t.. ah well.

[@scheikundeiscool4086]

I thin the only thing that is missing from this video is the interaction between effects on permanents and cards that where played as a spell until end of turn.

[@attackoncardboard]

Will take this on board for when I do the remake of this video :)

[@nosietogla7541]

I have a question about the Jurassic Park set card Dino DNA. If I were to use Dino DNA to make a copy of a card with variable power and toughness like Crusader of Odric, would the Crusader copy be a 6/6 Green dinosaur in addition to its other characteristics? Or would it be a white and green, human soldier dinosaur, with its variable power and toughness in addition to its other copiable characteristics? I ask because even though Dino DNA makes the copy's stats 6/6, I wonder if the crusader's ability would then override it as it enters.

[@attackoncardboard]

So in this case, the Dino DNA is explicitly setting the power to 6/6 and any abilities that would otherwise set it's P/T (eg Crusader of Odric's power and toughness are each equal to the number of creatures you control) are ignored. It also sets it's colour and creature type too. So if you exiled Crusader with DNA, then activated it 6 cost ability, you would end up with a vanilla 6/6 green dino. You generally want to combine Dino DNA with cards that have "enter the battlefield" abilities or "Enters with X +1/+1 counter abilities" like Arcbound Ravager. Arcbound Ravager would enter as a 6/6 with a +1/+1 counter on it (and its other abilities).

[@HAOwanderer]

I don't understand this 4:55 why removing Magus of the Moon ability would nor remove it's effect? and does that mean that in 8:18 if Urborg is already in play when Blood Moon enters, its ability is not removed?

[@attackoncardboard]

There's a couple of things to bring attention to here: Magus of the Moon effects Layer 4 and Humility Layer 6 and 7. We apply layers from top to bottom, and subsequence layers cant affect previous ones. Once a layer is applied, its effects get locked in. If Magus effected Layer 6, then yes, it would not effect the game state. Blood Moon and Urborg both affect Layer 4. And Urborg cares whether Blood Moon gets applied first or not. Where as Blood Moon doesn't care whether Urborg applies first or not. It's not affected by Urborg. So we have a dependency, so we ignore Timestamps and apply the non-dependent effect first.

[@HAOwanderer]

@@attackoncardboard Thanks for replying I had to rewatch the video but I think I got it now I'm definitely gonna have this layer list with from now on Great video!

[@joaquinoreamuno1677]

What if I use darksteel mutation on Bello, Bard of the Brambles? The artifacts and enchantments would be creatures on Bellos turn?

[@attackoncardboard]

Dark Steel Mutation doesn't make Bello lose their ability until Layer 6. By that time, Bello has already started applying their ability in Layer 4 and will continue to apply the rest of their effect, even if they "lose" that effect in a later Layer.

[@mackinzie]

Can you explain the interaction of leonin shikari, syr gwyn, and argentum armor being passed between attacking knights?

[@isaacking1524]

You're only going to get one Argentum Armor trigger and one Syr Gwyn trigger. All attackers are declared at the same time, and that's when "whenever a creature attacks" triggers trigger. Moving the Argentum Armor after the creatures have already attacked won't make them attack again.

[@mackinzie]

@isaacking1524 I think my misunderstanding came from the difference between "attacking" and "attacks" your explanation makes sense.

[@Slaptop.]

in the example where humility turns into a creature, would humility remove its own ability? and if so would that affect cards that are put onto the board after humility is turned into a creature?

[@attackoncardboard]

Layers are constantly applied and reapplied. Anytime anything happens, you run through the Layers list. Once Humility's ability starts to apply, it will continue to apply even if it's removed.

[@jedstanaland2897]

I have an effect that isn't applied properly in MTG arena and it seems to only apply when I use it against someone who I don't have on my friends list almost like there is rampant cheating involved. Nemata, Primeval Warden Liesa, Forgotten Archangel These two cards have identical or nearly identical exile abilities however the angel's abilities will always stop you from being able to create treasures with pitiless plunder or any other kind of death trigger but the treefolk won't. This problem becomes especially when I attempted to exile the angel ARENA wouldn't allow me to do it. My opponent was able to not only get their death triggers but they were able to completely negate mine. It got worse because when I sacrificed enough squirrels to kill the angle with chatter fang it didn't even apply the reduced toughness but only the increase in power. Why is it that death triggers seem to matter sometimes when an exile upon death ability is on the field and other times it doesn't work. I have also talked to judges about this and gotten two different excuses one was that exile upon death effects do stop triggers and that area was simply glitching and another said that they should still trigger but the creature simply doesn't make it to the graveyard. I remember the second one being the correct when I was a judge for MTG years ago but that was years ago now and I'll admit that I'm not completely up to date on the rules fine details of many things but I also know that ARENA is fundamentally broken almost always and they don't fix issues until forced into doing it.

[@isaacking1524]

[L2] The term "dies" means "is put into a graveyard from the battlefield", so if something like Nemata or Liesa prevents the creature from ever going to the graveyard, that means it didn't die and no "dies" triggers will occur. If it works differently on Arena, that sounds like a bug. I'd recommend reporting it to them so they know about it and can fix it. And if the judge who told you otherwise is interested, feel free to put them in contact with me and I can explain why the "dies" triggers don't occur. (If they'd like a rule citation, it's rule 700.4.)

[@jedstanaland2897]

@isaacking1524 I understand that and I have also reported that error/glitch. The reply I received was that it wasn't an error and death triggers still work even with cards like the angel, treefolk, and leyline of the Void. So either they are changing the rules soon or they were talking out of their arse just so they wouldn't have to do their job.

[@Undercoverfire]

How do you handle circular dependencies? E.g., what if three cards are in a mutually dependent triangle?

[@attackoncardboard]

Then Timestamps come into effect :)

[@theparagonal]

A+ for Ape Escape music

[@yaza862]

when this video appeared i had just talked a few days earlier to a friend starting magic how layers were the most complicated rule in MTG XD. Also if humility's on the board before magus of the moon, does magus of the moon still "have time" to apply his effect ? The only thing i can think of is if layers "resolve" when states are being checked and state based actions take place

[@sy-py]

Layers don't resolve, they apply constantly. And yes, Magus still applies his effect

[@chrisvainio]

Do new lands coming in after Magus of the Moon loses abilities still become mountains, or just pre existing?

[@attackoncardboard]

Layers are constantly being checked, updated and applied. So when a new land comes into play. The Layers "program" runs, and it will apply the layers list to the card where appropriate. So yes, new lands will ETB as Mountains (with Magus and Humility in play) :)

[@JRPKeller]

In the Magus of the Moon/Humility example...what happens when I play another non-basic land? Does it become a mountain or not?

[@sy-py]

It does. Continuous effects are evaluated top to bottom constantly.

[@wilsoncrunch1330]

Due to timestamps will the new lands played after Magus of the Moon has been changed by Humility now keep their original form and only the lands that were in effect before stay as mountains.

[@sy-py]

Nope, new lands will still be mountains.

[@arebalwithacause]

In the magus of the moon/humility example once that resolves what happens if someone plays a nonbasic land on the next turn? Since Magus of the moon now has no abilities now would just this nonbasic not be a mountain?

[@attackoncardboard]

Layers are constantly checked, updated and applied. Any time anything happens, the "Layers Program" gets run, so when a new land ETB, if it's non-basic, it will be a Mountain.

[@arebalwithacause]

@@attackoncardboard hm that's so interesting. Thanks for the reply!

[@dannybeane2069]

So in the Magus of the Moon example with Humility, I had a question. If Magus of the Moon, without Humility on the field is removed from the field, non- basic lands are no longer mountains and revert back to their orginal card text; correct? If yes, then would removing Magus of the Moon while Humility is in play NOT turn non-basic lands back into their orginal card text. As the continuous effect that was already applied, no longer exists; it's reverting a non-existent effect.

[@attackoncardboard]

Layers are constantly check, updated and applied. Any time anything happens. So if Magus gets removed from play, so does their ability. So all non-basic lands would return to normal. The reverse is true, if Magus is in play with Humility, any new lands that enter play will still be Mountains.

[@dannybeane2069]

@attackoncardboard Thank you mate. It feels like you're coding when you actually state and apply the rules in real time.

[@Rapandreas]

This is great to know. Does this mean that Veyran, voice of duality would still be usable, if she lost her abilities to an aura? The not magecraft part.

[@attackoncardboard]

Veyran's first ability Is a triggered ability and the second one is a replacement effect. If Humility (or an ability removing effect) was played, they would no longer have either of those abilities.

[@kingvire]

I’m a literal idiot and understand things way better when told and laid out like this. I will retain this so much more than other bs but just in case I’ve saved the video so I can always find it again. I appreciate the helped watched tons of videos about layers as I wanna judge but I can’t wrap my head around it this helped a ton even though I’m sure it will get mixed up later. I do wanna ask if you could add any additional information about dependencies cause I don’t understand how exactly the urborg or sliver was dependent on the blood moon or humility respectively.

[@Netro1992]

In the blood moon example, what happens when the magus dies? As per application of the rules. Intuitively, they would stop being mountains, but given at that point the magus doesn't have the ability, what part of the rules would change the board state so ghat the lands would stop being mountains. Or am I wrong and those lands will remain mountains?

[@siosilvar]

The game recalculates continuous effects "continually and automatically". Once Magus is no longer there to provide the layer 4 type-changing effect, it goes away, and all lands go back to normal.

[@hexproof44]

I guess this is the video i needed to answer a question about the interaction between Geist of Saint Traft, Annoited Procession and Divine visitation. So i attack with geist, place angel 4/4 attacking, Annoited procession triggers and I play another angel... Divine visitation simply adds vigilance to those Angels which i will have to exile at the end of combat. Is my understanding correct?

[@attackoncardboard]

So you attack with Geist and get a trigger that *would* put a tapped and attacking Angels. Instead you get 2 tapped and attacking Angels that now have vigilance (they'll still be tapped). You'll then exile them both at end of combat.

[@deathvalley200exo]

7:27 kinda confused would humility not remove it's own ability if it was a creature. but if it removes it, it would also remove the remove so it would have it again? what happens there?

[@attackoncardboard]

If you start applying the layers of a card, you have to apply all of them. Instead of thinking each layer of a card gets applied one at a time, they actually all get applied at the same time. The other way to think about it is that imagine the game state is a blank canvas, and we're going to paint it with 'layers' of paint from each continuous effect card. You would dunk the whole paint brush into the paint bucket of "Humility" and paint it on, you wouldnt try to separate out the colours in the paint bucket.

[@isaacking1524]

@@attackoncardboard The analogy I like best is that of putting colored filters in front of a movie projector. The movie can still play and change, but it's constantly being affected by the filters.

[@cogdill20]

very informative video! could you give me a little bit tougher example of a dependency? I think I understand it but just want to make sure.

[@sy-py]

My Archetype of Imagination is enchatned by Darksteel Mutation. Does my Grizzly Bear have flying? Why or why not?

[@kryttercakes]

Magus of the moon is the most confusing. Does that mean even if both the creature and enchantment leave play, the nonbasics remain as mountains?

[@attackoncardboard]

The layers are applied instantly and continuously. If they leave the battlefield, how can they apply their effect?