3500kg tow wagons - what can they really tow?

[@L2SFBC]

More info here -> l2sfbc.com/3500kg-tow-rated-wagons-which-can-tow-the-most/

[@sirstevo]

Only came across your channel in the last week. Just wanted to leave a comment (help the algorithm) saying how much I like it. You're content is great. Learnt so much about the 300 series, winching, etc.

[@L2SFBC]

Thanks! Please share 👍

[@alex_rogan]

The best breakdown I’ve seen for both info and production value. Thank you.

[@L2SFBC]

Much appreciated

[@cuozzo]

Currently towing a ~3T caravan with a Discovery5 (L462, 7S) and after 6000km I can certainly vouch for it being an amazing and extremely capable tow car! Great video Robert, thank you!

[@stuarth43]

yes have the d4 sdv6 254 hp 600 nm, nothing pushes it around

[@overlandjourno]

Thank you. This was such an eye opener for me. I tow a metallic Maxi with a Discovery 5 3.0 2019. Essentially a ton fully kitted. A Breeze to tow.

[@taringaturi6950]

Thanks Rob Another great clip again I tow with a Y62 I have a bull bar, roof rack, rear wheel carrier with 2 jerry can holders. When my new van arrives I'll be putting the spare wheel and jerry cans on the van and getting rid of the roof rack to drop the weight off the Y62. Only thing in the rig will be Wife, Boofhead (Dog) fridge and me. We should be good👍🏽

[@georgeduro2699]

Mr Pepper, well put together and highly informative style of presentations, but mate!! where's the 'Everest' far more relevant than those two Mercs in the touring/towing scene let's see the Everest thrown in the mix, good payload too!!. And you should smile more Jack, maybe a few more of your wise cracks. Cheers George

[@ThePhantom41]

Great overview of both available vehicles and practical considerations. Thanks!

[@einfelder8262]

It would be interesting to see how quickly the payload adds up, when you factor in a full tank, and family of 4, with the tow vehicle having some all terrains, a bullbar and winch, roof rack, drawers, fridge, dual batteries, long range tank, the towbar and hitch, and some recovery gear. Quite applicable to the LC300, Patrol, Ineos which will almost always be kitted for off-roading & camping as well as caravanning.

[@L2SFBC]

VERY quickly, sadly!

[@LordZiomalus]

One more thing - Patrol's payload needs to be further reduced if towing heavy - specs buried down deep in fine print. On top of towball download. Can't remember exact numbers but it was something around 120kg for a 3500kg trailer.

[@juliandrake7862]

Glad to hear your countering the torque myth that has crept in over the last decade. Power with appropriate gearing is what matters. Traditionally the only value of knowing max torque was that it gave insight into the power/torque curve of an engine ie was the power available ‘down low’. With modern turbo charged flat torque curves it’s is less insightful.

[@L2SFBC]

Oh don't say that Julian, OldMate58 will be along to say torque torque torque but be unable to explain it :-)

[@Gemini_0815]

Yes. Many people seem to have very little understanding of basic mechanical physics. What matters is torque at the wheel at a particular vehicle speed. This is achieved by engine power and gearing.

[@arielle_australia]

@@L2SFBC well to be honest your explanation could also use a lot of improvement. “Put it into low gear and see how it goes for you” is not exactly a strong argument.

[@L2SFBC]

I think it makes the point and the video is not there to explore the detail of power vs torque. I may do that another time.

[@arielle_australia]

@@L2SFBC maybe I missed the point. Is it that your top speed would be limited?

[@vtcampbell]

Thanks Rob, great video. I would’ve added a section to cover which vehicles are able to have their GVM upgraded since that would’ve pulled a few of the ladder frames up to their towing limits (assuming your 500kg payload scenario). The unibody vehicles are great out of the box but are poorly suited to accept what Aussies would consider “standard additions” …(bullbar, dual battery, small fridge, 2+2 passengers, luggage)

[@L2SFBC]

Good point, didn't think to do that!

[@colinross6259]

Not really. A GVM increase without a GCM increase means the heavier the tow vehicle the less weight you can tow as GCM has not changed. If you upgrade GCM, which ain't easy or cheap, then ok.

[@L2SFBC]

Yes but if you are GVM limited you may be able to tow heavier trailer with an upgrade.

[@sklyjd3051]

The Defender I have found is a great tow wagon and off roader with luxury on road habits

[@tonygersbach375]

Wow, the cruiser and patrol not suited fur heavy towing, that’ll upset a lot of people. Thanks for the video

[@L2SFBC]

Thanks for watching! Please share :-) The Y62 and 300 do tow well, but really need more payload. Keep within that and you're good to go.

[@imnotusingmyrealname4566]

Maybe people will import the Toyota Tundra. That will do 3500kg like it's nothing.

[@snells-window]

It's frightening to see the number of overloaded 4wd/camper rigs on the road. 500kg sounds like a decent payload, but most people forget that you need to include fuel, driver, passengers, luggage and all the vehicle accessories(bull bar, roof rack, tow bar, winches, etc etc) that add up very quickly. Would be interested to hear about some of the legal/insurance implications of being over GVM/GCM - they seem largely ignored at the moment. The police/scaleys could have a field day pulling over and weighing these rigs during holiday times, but they largely ignore them to focus on truckies

[@gadgetphilosophy8290]

Thanks for the review. Land rovers are always underrated. They do great. The defender with the short overhangs toes really well in real life. So does the patrol. The Landcruiser not so much.

[@mikedunkerton3484]

I hope caravan owners are going through this exercise, because first impressions just looking at the tow vehicle and the massive caravan behind suggest otherwise.

[@hedydd2]

In the UK it is very commonplace to tow to the maximum 3.5 tons. Farmers with 14ft livestock trailers and flatbeds and plant operators towing mini diggers etc soon hit the limit and sometimes may stretch the limit somewhat and with cattle especially they move around and depending on which way round and how many, the tow ball load may vary significantly during a journey, from maybe 200kgs to 750kgs or more. The vehicles listed plus the Ford Ranger, Isuzu pickup, Nissan Navara, and older Defenders are the common tow vehicles. We do not get the LC300 or the Nissan Patrol any longer. Outside the holiday season around here in West Wales, every fifth vehicle will be a heavy duty 4wd and at certain times half of those will have a large trailer behind. Part of the reason for a high proportion of towing is that UK farms are not generally of a scale that warrants a larger truck and when these are needed then a rigid 12 ton to 42 ton truck is hired. My Ranger T6 has now covered 80,000 miles and is having its fifth replacement rear spring fitted this moment. They break when lightly or no loaded for some reason and never, in my experience, when heavily loaded. I have a Grenadier ordered to supplement the Ranger for delivery in November 2023.

[@The_Doc_Rocks]

I guess the other factor to take into consideration is just how much crap you REALLY need or want to take with you. I don't have a winch, but I do have front and rear air-locking diffs. My golden rule - only ever use those to get out of the shit, never use them to get into it. Those heavy drawer systems weight too much - I have a simple frame and shelf arrangement, with plastic containers and draw ropes underneath, and we don't take a separate car fridge - we have a perfectly good fridge in the caravan. Things like tools, recovery gear, etc are distributed between the car and the van, and more towards the back of the van to avoid overloading the TBM. I've seen so many people take so much crap with them, I wonder if they're actually going on holiday or just towing the motel around behind them..! I know people who take not only gennies, but things like electronic music keyboards, huge barista-style coffee machines, Thermomixes, etc - that's not camping! We travel very light, and go nowhere near our payload in either the tug (currently an LC100 V8) or the van (Zone). All weights, every time we've done a check weigh-in, are way under all limits. Including one that wasn't in this otherwise excellent video - the rear axle loading. Food supplies, basic cooking gear, couple of T-shirts and shorts, one lot of warm gear for cold weather use, and all reading matter stored on a couple of Kindles. And a couple of fly-fishing rods. Throw in an iPad and a couple of iPhones, as well as the mandatory Personal Locator Beacon (PLB) and that's about it. All the other payload can be used for water, fuel, gas (4Kg bottles), and we're still well under. Lesson - take less crap :)

[@L2SFBC]

Ah Dr Rock...you may enjoy this -> kzbin.info/www/bejne/rpvUeHioZ7-Libs

[@L2SFBC]

And more on rear axle coming soon

[@davidjones8644]

Great video with some really useful information. Thank you! I think you will find the rear axle limits will be a major limiting factor as well. It is even problematic for some of the huge USA "pickups". Auxiliary fuel tanks have been available for the Jeep Grand Cherokee for a while. I had a 75 litre auxiliary tank in a Jeep diesel which gave me 168 litres total and I drove from Melbourne to Hervey Bay without stopping at a fuel pump - not towing.

[@L2SFBC]

Yes, I'm going to do more on axle limits. I love my long-range tanks, always fit them to my 4X4s for towing and just generally!

[@davidjones8644]

@@L2SFBC Axle limits are something most people either ignore, or don't know about in the first place. A video on them would be great!

[@davexb6595]

I asked RAM about how much of the tare weight to deduct from the 1700kg rear axle limit on the 1500 DS and they ignored me. It's a limitation which all the manufacturers sort of like to keep you in the dark over.

[@davidjones8644]

@@davexb6595 That is less than my Discovery 5, 5-seater, limit of 1775 kg! And that is 125 kg less than the 7-seater limit of 1900 kg . Ridiculous, isn't it? Plus, the overhang is probably much greater, so the actual effect of the ball weight on the rear axle will be higher again...

[@L2SFBC]

Video on the way..and if you work on 50/50 front/rear tare split you will be pretty close for an unladen 4x4. But yes you won't get an answer because they don't know and don't care to find out because the answer wouldn't be pretty, and they often don't even understand the problem either.

[@PatrickRich]

Very nice. I can't believe the power vs torque debate is still a thing in the age of youtube videos. Its power, it was always power. Torque is a meaningless metric (on its own). Torque is a componenent of power and it changes how power is produced and has a lot of effect of longevity of engine, fuel consumption, etc. BUT ONLY power matters when it comes to doing work. Its as simple as that. Big torque numbers mean more power with fewer revs, which means a more pleasant towing experience, lower fuel consumption and higher engine life (generally) but 200kw of work is 200 kw of work, whether you get it at 10,000 rpm or 2,500

[@L2SFBC]

I know....but the average buyer is torque focused. They don't really know why. But they are. Some uses even have the torque figure ad a badge.

[@PatrickRich]

@@L2SFBC Im from the US, where the torque wars are in full swing so I know this all too well.

[@arielle_australia]

My D4 has relatively low power (about 180kw) and a lot of torque (600nm). When I mash the accelerator, facing uphill, all 3 tonnes of the car rocket uphill while the engine is doing 2000RPM - I’m pretty sure it’s not due to the kilowatts.

[@L2SFBC]

How would the car go with 1200Nm and 30kw? Or 300kW and 100Nm?

[@arielle_australia]

@@L2SFBC you didn’t address my point. Are you saying that in my case, it’s the KWs that pull the car uphill like a train?

[@motoring8407]

Another great video

[@grantm1891]

Kg per kW I think you meant. Interesting video, I had rated the Patrol very highly before seeing this. One other point, my own experience suggests you can tow boats close to the manufacturer's maximum tow rating. Very long wheel base, and most of the weight very close to the tyres. I tow a 24ft American CC boat with twin 175hp engines with my Pajero. Within GCM and very stable. I don't think I'd try towing a caravan of the same weight though.

[@L2SFBC]

Great point - caravans are the worst to tow as their weight is poorly distributed, and they have massive slab sides. Boats and cars are much easier to tow for the opposite reasons. Cars especially are easy to move on a trailer to get the distrubition nice and central.

[@EvangelosPapaioannou]

I think that it's very important to see what happens to the gear boxes after too much towing. What's the most reliable. I don't care if my vehicle can tow 3500kg and then I have to service the gear box

[@einfelder8262]

I'd like to have seen the Touareg included, the V6 is a super unit.

[@L2SFBC]

Felt 9 was enough!

[@imnotusingmyrealname4566]

Sadly the V8 Touareg is gone.

[@bretthughes3606]

@@imnotusingmyrealname4566 The Touareg V8 is still available - 310kw, 900Nm 😮

[@imnotusingmyrealname4566]

@@bretthughes3606 Oh then its only in the EU because of emissions. The V8 Touareg, SQ7, SQ8, A8, or BMW M50d all gone here.

[@belindalouise7587]

Great video.....would like to see those comparisons for the dual cabs

[@L2SFBC]

Watch this space. .

[@srdjan361306]

Hi, the % 10 TBM comes from design od trailers in AU and US . The center of axels is moved back ,that much, so the TBM is 10% when is load evenly distribued over loading area on trailer. Exmpl: 3.5T trailer when is loaded evenly full , the TBM is 350 kg. But in EU that % is 5 % 3.5T trailer have 175kg on TB. That's why eu model can easy tow 3.5 T in EU. I tow regulary 3.5T with iveco daily 2005 ,it 's a breeze . I had ML 350 cdi 2009 also easy towing.

[@patrickcarmody5905]

Nice analysis- thanks. However, disappointing that 70 series Toyota was not included as it’s such a common choice.

[@evanmurphy2165]

An informative video. However the recommendation of some of the American trucks can be a bit misleading as some models - especially some of the diesel models - their payloads at maximum trailer weights are pretty dismal. For example the Ram 1500 Laramie claims to tow 4500kg, but the payload left over from the GCM is only around 90kg. The more basic diesel model is limited to 3500kg tow weight but its GCM doesn't give it much of a payload either. The main take away should be to do the math on the vehicle you want to tow with before you buy either a vehicle to tow an existing load with or when buying a new trailering load for the vehicle you have. Weighbridges are invaluable to help keep a vehicle and passengers safe.

[@L2SFBC]

Could be the RAM, but that's also true of the Silverado which I explain here -> kzbin.info/www/bejne/kJmxh4uAj69rrNE while it is rated to 4500kg, it makes a great 3500kg car!

[@andrevanderwalt2515]

The new Jeep should be good in safety... also cant compare the wrangler to the Cherokee. As for the torque vs power argument, power isn't an ideal measure either. Example: 97 v6 Prado makes 132kw and 300Nm, but the torque is only made at 3600rpm. So towing my camper, once you get to 105km/h, it will maintain speed easily in 3rd gear (4 speed auto), but as soon as you drop just a few km/h, things get difficult. Changing to a 2.0 Amarok making 120kw and 400Nm (manual), you can easily slow to 80 and then easily accelerate back up to 100. It is more important where the torque is made. A nice flat curve is better than a high spike at high rpm, that will result in a high power number.

[@nickslotus9490]

Another great video. I would be interested to know this for the next gen Platinium ranger

[@Alienking01]

Here in Germany these vehicles dont even have the same TBM ratings, 120-150kg is the max you gonna get. The required TBM by law is also different, here you only need at least 4% of the trailer mass. (f.e. 3500kg = 140kg)

[@peterclaessens2005]

Good video. Would like to hear your thoughts about GVM upgrades. So many caravanners do this for utes and the LC200.

[@L2SFBC]

Basically I don't recommend them for towing. A GVM upgrade doesn't, and in my view shouldn't, upgrade your GCM so by increasing your GVM you have in effect less weight left over for towing. More here -> kzbin.info/www/bejne/hKqUo6xphMtqfsU

[@siukalo]

Hi Good video, in your figures for Y62 did you deduct the payload as specified by Nissan? As far as I know if you tow 3.5t with Y62 you need to deduct the GVM. John Cadogan had a video about it.

[@L2SFBC]

Nissan scrapped that advice and I also explained it in a video.

[@siukalo]

@@L2SFBC Thanks for update. A s a consumer it is really kind of difficult to get these updates. Really need video like this to work it out.

[@holden3083]

Interesting doing this same test with dual cabs & suvs like the mux ect

[@ldnwholesale8552]

Hmmm, I regularly tow racecars on a rocker sprung tandem trailer. That alone makes a helluva difference. All up under 2.5 ton. With a car you can move the load back or forwards to equalise the load. Caravans, horse floats etc not really. Tyres on both towcar and trailer are a major part of this. The Euro vehicles with low profile tyres are an accident waiting to happen. Even with the correct load numbers said tyres are dangerous when carrying a full load let alone towing. I sell tyres and have seen so many that have blown. And travel the roads and see them as well. The Bimmer? Simply do not tow. Strangerover with 21" tyres, do not tow!! Even the 18s fitted to the obese 300s are becoming borderline. Ditto the rest with bigger than 16/17" I tow with a 100 IFS [and yes it does make a difference] and with the above have no issues except thirst. And I tow at 110k, not caravanners 90k blocking up the roads. Worse in convoy! Most caravans are dangerous, too high, half ass suspensions and once loaded usually so front or rear heavy. Should be banned!!! Though in the UK I once saw a biggish single axle van behind a Focus. I will sic Clarkson onto him. Dumb and dumber!! Horse floats,, well horses stomp around in the float, back and forth maybe a foot. Moving load, not ideal. Yes I have towed a 2 horse float. Not fun. Ski boats? Fine but load properly, Junoir Queen Mary,, get a truck. Anything over 2.5 tonne is tow with a truck. 3500 ton?? Really dumb. Worse so many SUVs have this mythical rating these days. Trailer design and balance as well as tyres make a huge difference. All should have rocker springs [load sharing] a long drawbar makes them all tow better as well as back better. And so many trailers and vans fall apart after a few years. Light truck tyres are simply required, passeneger tyres are for passenger cars. Light truck will make a bad trailer tow ok and a good trailer tow great.

[@L2SFBC]

Thanks, good info and yes cars are easy to weight-place. Also less of a problem in gusty wind.

[@zukjeff]

good stuff Rob...but did i miss working back from rear axle loads with and without WDH ? also the notes in the vehicle book that mentions limits of the people and amount of fuel you can carry as you get over about 2800kg for the trailer ? ( i have not read the books for these vehicles you presented today but have for some of the current utes).

[@L2SFBC]

Didn't cover everything in that presentation...to look at rear axle loads use my calculator l2sfbc.com/towing-weights-calculator/ and check out my rear axle load video which explains how they work.

[@carlosfuentealba1636]

Thanks for your analyses, they are excellent. A question: Do you have analysis videos on the Subaru XV (or Crosstreck), and the Subaru Forester? Both have very competitive towing capacities in their respective categories.

[@L2SFBC]

no sorry

[@jackar1ah]

Hi Robert, based on your analysis and 500kg payload on the vehicles, wouldn't all the mainstream utes on the market be able to tow more than a cruiser in that scenario......tare weight of approx 2000kg, GVM approx 3000kg, GCM approx 6000kg would mean that some might still be able to tow 3500kg (legally at least) with a 500kg payload aboard....

[@L2SFBC]

Quite possibly yes, utes do better for payload than wagons. The calculator tells all -> l2sfbc.com/towing-weights-calculator/

[@tasarcheryworkshop4283]

I dont understand why a 7 seat Defender can carry more weight than a 5 seat.The axels would be the same .

[@L2SFBC]

Suspension and electronic settings would be different.

[@michaelsecomb4115]

The LRs are actually better on payload than your figures show. For example, the LR handbook for my 2009 Defender 110 says when the vehicle is loaded to GVM there may also be up to 150kg on the towball. In my Defender's case, that means the effective payload is actually 840kg + 150kg = 990kg. The handbook also states my Defender can tow 4000kg, not the usual 3500kg.

[@L2SFBC]

For Australia?

[@bvward]

Robert, from what I've read, the Grenadier will only be petrol (although Turbo) in the 'States. Never heard of it until your video ;)... We have very few diesel offerings. Dodge Ram ute with a Cummings, anyone?

[@L2SFBC]

Oh wow, the Grenadier is a VERY important 4X4! Yes, the North American aversion to diesel is well-known...you guys will go straight to electric I think!

[@BlenderBends]

Great video. Have spent many hours trying to figure out which of these would be best for my towing needs. It looks like new defender seems to be the sweet spot. I won't tow 3500, more in the 2500 space for a decent camping trailer with family and payload. thanks

[@L2SFBC]

You're welcome! Please share :-)

[@sudstahgaming]

I am buying a 16 foot by 8 foot catering trailer, will I need a vehicle that can tow 3500kg or is 2500 enough? any vehicle recommendations cheapest options

[@jackar1ah]

The max power and torque figures alone don't really tell you a lot about how well a vehicle performs as they are simply that, max figures at a given RPM.....a petrol V6 Grand Cherokee for example has a higher peak power output than the diesel version, but only if you keep the tacho needle north of 6000rpm or so....not a lot of help when you want to know how easily you can do a hill start at GCM....things like acceleration data and actually testing the vehicle (or asking someone who has) are far better indicators....

[@L2SFBC]

Agreed...I mostly put that in so I could say it didn't matter too much. Don't forget gearing too which is a decent part of why the LC300 goes better than the LC200.

[@waynehobbs5175]

Well done again Rob. Did you omit the weight of a towbar, WDH and wiring kit associated with towing which could be 40kg to 80kg? Or was that part of the 500kg deemed cargo? If it was an accidental omission it would drastically reduce the potential ATM of any towed trailer. Example (from memory) the Jeep had 168kg remaining payload with 500kg taken. If a tow kit knocked say even 60kg from that the tow potential would be 108kg x 10 or 1080kg. I really enjoy your reports and this isn't a criticism. Speaking of wagons purporting to be 3500kg tow vehicles Isuzu makes this claim with the latest model MUX. 2155kg unladen 2800kg GVM 5900kg GCM 645kg payload With 500kg payload and lets assume that includes towkit it leaves 145kg TBM x 10 = 1450kg GVM. At GVM only 2100kg left under GCM If you put 3500kg trailer behind the cars GVM is only 2400kg which is -500 on your test. Also if you put 3500kg behind of which 350kg went to TBM 2800kg (GVM) minus 350kg would leave only 295kg for all occupants, all accessories including towbar kit. That is tantamount to misleading in my opinion by Isuzu claiming the MUX to be a 7 seater family SUV with 3.5t towing ability! The fact that you can not tow in AWD on bitumen makes this a very poor choice against the 9 vehicles you compared. The Isuzu primitive transfer case system is just not a good one for towing IMO. Your thoughts?

[@L2SFBC]

Yes a towbar may eat into payload, a WDH definitely will so you're right there. Should have mentioned that. It can be 30-40kg. Some cars are built in eg LC200/300. I don't like part-time 4WDs for towing. Much, much prefer full-time so agree the Isuzu's selectable 4x4 is a disadvantage. A 7-seater 4x4 can either seat 7, or tow its max. No both. So yes, "with" is misleading.

[@brianhood9779]

Great informative videos. Just discovered. I have just ordered an off road 21.5’ van and my calculations are that it will be a 3400kg (water, gas, food, kitchen and bedding etc.) mass to tow. I did have a preference for A 1-3 year old LC200 with a minimum 3850 GVM as tow vehicle. I have not purchased tow vehicle as yet. I would appreciate your thoughts about such a combo before I outlay $150k plus? Or should I be looking at an American truck with 4.5 tow capacity? Brian

[@L2SFBC]

I'd tow a 3400kg van with a light truck like a Canter or an American ute like the Ram 2500 (not 1500 despite the 4500kg capacity). 3400kg is a lot of weight particuarly in offroad mode with a high CoG and mud tyres. Use my calculator here - l2sfbc.com/towing-weights-calculator/

[@patrickvanrinsvelt4466]

I am looking at caravans that will have a GVM close to 3.5t here in NZ. Bit skeptical about getting a tow vehicle that is rated for that. Looking at utes which have higher tow allowances but then the GCM goes up since these vehicles are typically heavier. Am I overthinking this?

[@L2SFBC]

Not at all, you are on exactly the right track. If your trailer is close to 3500kg then you want something like a Ram or Tundra to tow it. Anything less and there will come a time that sees you evaluating your life choices...kinda like running 15 year old tyres then it rains.

[@Steven_Rowe]

People get sucked into media hype. Yes,they advertise vyou can tow 3.5 ton and pull it up hill like your going up comroad straight What they DON'T tell you is all the truth. Now much payload do you have left in the tow vehicle, normally very little. Also is it really wise to tow a van that is way heavier than your tow vehicle, all very well until things go pear shaped. The wise persom will leave a healthy safety margin.

[@rjl110919581]

love my 2010 Isuzu 300/75 because can do only do not have the soft finish get another 4x4 wagon because the been truck

[@johncunningham4820]

The actual definition of Tare weight is , The Basic Vehicle Platform in driveable condition with 10 litres of fuel and no Driver in it . Kerb Weight is the " As Sold " condition , all Tanks Full and all Permanent fixtures fitted etc , and again No Driver . GVM and GCM there is often a discrepancy between Factory Ratings and Local Administrative limits . MOT or DOT or RMS etc .

[@L2SFBC]

That is one defintion. There are a few of kerb and tare.

[@johncunningham4820]

@@L2SFBC . Not really . Tare is the vehicle in basic form , but capable of being driven to the weighbridge and back . Kerb is " As Sold " with all the specified inclusions of the Model involved OR as post sale Modified . May easily change during the Duty Cycle and should be updated as required . You're talking to a retired Heavy Combnation Vehicle Driver .

[@L2SFBC]

Yes that's essentially what most definitions come up with...except for variance in the driver, fuel load, and definitions of standard fit. So turns out there are quite a few ways to define both. EU vs ADR for example. And I'm talking light vehicles.

[@johncunningham4820]

@@L2SFBC . I realise you are talking Light Vehicles Robert . But Tare and Kerb weights DO NOT involve the Driver being in the Vehicle . There is however quite likely a " Standard Man " weight factored in . Real People can be Jabba the Hutt size or Cad Bane size . Or Ahsoka Tano size even . Characters used simply for visualisation purposes . And Kerb Weight is supposed to Include Full Long Range Tanks and Water tanks too and Bullbar and Winch and Other Tankage for Hydraulics if fitted and Spare Wheels and Anything Else that is Permanently mounted to said vehicle . People and their Overnight Bags are part of the GVM numbers . Freight , as it were .

[@alifarooqi8980]

Hi, can you please advice if i can tow a 2022 Jayco Silverline 24.75 outback with a 2022 Mercedes Benz GLS 450? if the loaded caravan is 3345kg

[@L2SFBC]

That sort of question is exactly why I created this -> l2sfbc.com/towing-weights-calculator/ plug in the numbers there and it will tell you.

[@paulmcintosh5589]

I was surprised how good the VW Touareg stacks up in weights also the merc wagons

[@darrindouglas1]

I was considering selling my y62, and get a Canter crewcab 4x4, but my wife won't let me spend the extra 25k. My van only weighs 3t fully loaded, so a truck is probably overkill, and nearly as thirsty as my Patrol......

[@rich7447]

I don't like to go above 80% of rated tow capacity on a conventional hitch. If you are getting that close to the rating your vehicle is too small for the trailer or you need a different hitch (5th wheel or gooseneck).

[@L2SFBC]

Agreed!

[@ScottKeane-if5qp]

What would the rear axel limits and available load be on the diesel defender with 350kg TBM?

[@efibendor1]

Awesome video. What is the ranking for the P400 defender ? Thanks

[@L2SFBC]

Ranking?

[@bryanjeddy]

Hi all, looking for some guidance, I have a ranger 2019 and towning a Op4 trailer. With it all hitched and still approx 100kg to add to the trailer side of things my rear axel comes in at 1700kg and front at 1400kg. While this is within the recommended amount, should I get the GVM upgrade to get the rear axle to 2050 and the front to 1650kg to be safe or is this over kill? For ref rear axel limit is 1850kg Front axel is 1450kg

[@L2SFBC]

+100kg on the trailer wouldn't necessarily man +100 or even more on the TBM which is the major load factor on the rear axle, so probabty safe without for the moment.

[@Mambey]

Y62 have long range tanks available already.

[@Gemini_0815]

Good video! A remark: at 7:44 the column should be “kg per kW” instead of “kW per kg”, right? Also, for low speed ability, curb crawling, traffic jam driving, it would be good to include a number for the total gear ratio (engine rpm / wheel rpm in 1st and in Reverse) vs GCM. That way you’d get a good idea on slow speed manoeuvrability.

[@L2SFBC]

Yes, you are right, good spot!

[@djkramerd4582]

Interesting that the cars that people usually associate with heavy towing (ie. LC, Patrol) actually cone up short ..🤔 Especially that people usually load them up to the max

[@L2SFBC]

yes it is interesting...wanted to open people's eyes!

[@Ted...youtubee]

Some advice i got from mates to me. Sadly. Just buy a van in the tow limit. You watching towing stuff again. You must have towball at 10%. You worry to much about your (future) caravan balance. Caravan place to me after I said 1 65L water tank was too far forward: " it's balanced with the rear tank". Sigh deeply.

[@L2SFBC]

Makes me sad. Send them my weights video so they can see the error of balancing weights at either end.

[@hunkemberema2152]

Very informative video. Can you do a video on Land Cruiser Single Cab 79 vs Toyota Hilux vs LC300 and Nissan Patrol Single Cab vs Nissan Navara vs Nissan Y6 Suv

[@L2SFBC]

maybe...

[@woody1851]

Hmm - my old defender with 700Kg payload pulls my 3axle 3.5t trailer with 50Kg TBM without any problems. Total weight is 6.55t - so no issue at all (>8000km in 2021). I just bought a GLS 350d - 3,5t + 500-600Kg payload - no problem for that car as well. (Who is loading more than 100Kg TBM on a 3.5t trailer?)

[@L2SFBC]

Almost everyone in Australia would run more than 100kg TBM on a 3500kg trailer.

[@woody1851]

@@L2SFBC Actually - my trailer tipper has 150Kg TBM since its only a 3t trailer (tandem). In Germany 3.5t trailer weight is the legal max - including TBM! Therefore my boat trailer is a tripple axle so I can reduce the TBM actually to 25kg(!).

[@rich7447]

@@woody1851 How much does your boat trailer weight? I wouldn't even consider running 25kg of tongue weight on anything (even my log splitter has more weight on the ball than that). I sold my truck (2011 Ram 2500 crew cab diesel) a few months ago to get a more capable tow vehicle. The Ram was okay with a 14,000 lb(approx 6.5t) 30' enclosed trailer, but it limited how much I could put on my flatbed gooseneck trailer. Tongue weight on the enclosed trailer is usually in the 1200lb/550 kg to 1800 lb/815 kg range (class 5 - 2.5" receiver on the Ram).

[@bretthughes3606]

No Touareg?😮 Poor comparison. We’ve been towing a 3.3T van around Australia with a 2016 V6 diesel Touareg- 180kw, 550Nm, 8sp, air suspension. Does it with ease and so comfortable. Can still carry its full 650kg payload (less the towball weight). Sad to see this great vehicle omitted.

[@L2SFBC]

So was the Q7..and others. 9 was enough. I've listed some more on the website post to go with this. What towball mass are you running on your 3.3t van?

[@bretthughes3606]

Thanks. We have 280kg on the towball - manufacturer’s maximum. This leaves is about 400kg of payload which is more than enough for 2 of us, 80kg of fuel and a few things like a toolkits, recovery gear and a Jerry can of water. The Touareg tows better with some weight in it because it’s relatively light. We average around 17 l/100km with a 100 litre tank so we have decent range. The Touareg is great for us and many others who want a daily driver, stay mainly in the blacktop and take reasonable day trips off road. It’s more capable than it looks especially with the airbag suspension that gives more clearance than a standard LC200. We see many more Touaregs towing than BMWs, Mercs or Grenadiers (!). But sadly it keeps on getting overlooked in reviews, for no good reason. I’m sorry, I searched for ‘Touareg’ in your website, but couldn’t find anything. Thanks for your other excellent posts and videos, especially the weights calculator that I often refer to others. Regards.

[@L2SFBC]

I just posted something in the Community section :-) The reason it is overlooked is because it is a small-volume vehicle and the audience is therefore small. I agree it is capable as a towcar and offroader, but limited aftermarket support limits it soffroad appeal. You won't find any Grenadiers yet but interest is very high.

[@slowboat6021]

you missed the best tug of all Robert, VW Touareg.

[@L2SFBC]

Apparently so...

[@Dorko85]

Its not about just KW, you need torque to pull. This factor is very important uphill and offroad. Low revs and torque gives control. You can have all the power at high revs, but no torque you won't get up a hill from a stand still. This is why trucks have huge torque and lower power. Drive a truck and you will understand.

[@L2SFBC]

You can't have any power without torque can you? Hence the quote of the power figures as you can gear down for torque but how do you gear to create power?

[@Dorko85]

@@L2SFBC that's a stupid agrument. You need torque to if you want to pull; its as simple as that. Go get your power with no torque and you will be sitting at the bottom of the hill all day long.

[@L2SFBC]

You can't have power without torque. Power is essentially torque over time. So for example, you can double the torque at the weehls of the average 4WD quite easily - just put it in low range. Loads of torque. How'd it go freeway towing? You tell me.

[@Dorko85]

No, low range does not double the available torque compared to high range. The purpose of low range in a 4WD is to provide increased torque multiplication, which allows for better control and increased power at lower speeds. However, the actual torque output of the engine remains the same. In low range, the gear ratio between the engine and the wheels is increased, resulting in a higher torque multiplication factor. This means that the wheels receive more torque for a given engine output, It's important to note that while low range increases torque at the wheels, the actual torque produced by the engine remains the same. The torque multiplication occurs within the transfer case and the drivetrain components to deliver more torque to the wheels.

[@L2SFBC]

Right, that's what I said. Increased torque *at the wheels*.

[@coccinnelle]

Do you know rhe difference in numbers for the 5 and 7 seater defender ?

[@L2SFBC]

They are on Land Rovers website. Think it is 70kg difference or so

[@pedrotheswift5937]

Maybe the best tow cars arent brand new... my 2016 SDV8 RRS tows our 3.1T van effortlessly and quite legally. Will happily sit on 100kph in 8th gear at 1200rpm all day. Over 500 kilometres range at 17LPHundred.

[@L2SFBC]

Yes the V8 RRS is a very very good car. I remember testing it when it first came out...amazing onroad and offroad, althought I didn't get a chance to tow.

[@bjrnungjensen1842]

Interesting However, maybe I misunderstood, but I think your methods of calculation are potentially flawed. I seems you do not mention or consider distance between tow ball and rear axle? This distance, combined with tow ball mass determines the actual increase in weight over the rear axle. The increase in rear axle load is much higher than the tow ball mass added, due to the moment created around the rear axle (trying to lift the front axle off the ground). I have not checked on this vehicles, but you my find that max rear axle load will be exceeded if relying on your method - depending on how the load in the vehicle itself is distributed.

[@L2SFBC]

No, I said I didn't calculate rear axle loads...the video would get overly complex. However, a good rule of thumb is add 150% of the TVM to the rear axle load, as typical 4x4 wheelbases are 3000mm and overhang 1500. This is shown in my calculator l2sfbc.com/towing-weights-calculator/

[@bjrnungjensen1842]

@@L2SFBC Ah - ok very good, sorry I did not catch that!

[@mikeday6612]

Where’s the review of the LC troopie? 1t payload and 180L fuel.

[@L2SFBC]

Bit niche. I left out a few others, 9 was enough!

[@donross6549]

The BMW X5 with BMW tow kit is also rated at 3.5t in Australia.

[@GRcorolla-bt3mn]

Is it possible to imcrease towing capacity by atleast 500kilos?

[@L2SFBC]

Of what?

[@GRcorolla-bt3mn]

@@L2SFBC let's say a 4th gen pajero v80 which is rated at 3000kilos

[@L2SFBC]

I'd buy another car would be cheaper

[@GRcorolla-bt3mn]

@@L2SFBC can you suggest one

[@L2SFBC]

Lc100

[@PazLeBon]

considerigg a range rover sport v8,, around years 2008 with 160k miles average. primarily cos i need to move donkeys 1000 mile round trip. twice! a good choice or overkill? i realise ive always wanted a v8 but if its foolish i could consider the v6. or even a reliable alterative. anyone? :)

[@L2SFBC]

To be honest I've never considered how good Range Rovers would be at transporting donkeys!

[@PazLeBon]

@@L2SFBC lol, its still a trailer they require ;)

[@youtubecarspottersguide1]

6500lb. trailer 1 person driving, flat land s, mtn passes going to run out of steam real fast ,tow ratings I don't trust them. in the US defender and most German wagons are 7000- 7710 no way we are looking at 30'x8' wide trailers heavy hitch wt 700 -800 lbs slide out rooms full size trailer need full size tow rigs, never tow more than 4000 lbs with any of those, 20' trailer

[@photon1117]

Why is pajero not considered?

[@L2SFBC]

No longer made

[@djkramerd4582]

I would prefer to be in the GLS in an accident, then BMW...

[@L2SFBC]

why so?

[@stuarth43]

WELL DO NOT TELL THE POLICE BUT I TOWED A 3800KG LOAD FROM Sydney to Sunshine coast with a discovery 4 2.7, the trailer brakes failed in the rain, car could not be pushed around. Was not until the lathe was craned off that i realized i was overweight i guess having a hg license helped with 60 years of experience somewhere on youtube is a vid of a d4 towing a van in rain, they were weaving trying to make the car break loose, to no avail with my 2015 8 speed i shift Command Shift kzbin.info/www/bejne/boqlf2OAbNB6hsU

[@djkramerd4582]

But u don't tow in low range?? Please investigate thus further.. as I feel u r way off

[@L2SFBC]

sorry don't understand the question!

[@djkramerd4582]

@@L2SFBC in relation to u saying that power is more important than torque for towing..where u said u can double the torque by going into low range.. doubles your torque😂😂

[@johnnumbat9782]

You’re tending to give a Euro/UK p/US bias which is unfortunate because most informed folk know how unreliable these brands are with Jeep and LandRover down the bottom of the independent owner reviews globally - I’d rather own a Japanese built Toyota or Nissan, tow a smaller caravan and tell my partner to leave the hairdryer and two noisy ankle biters behind.

[@rodgerhatfield3068]

I would not call ANY of these TOW WAGONS. MAYBE suv. If you wanna tow something, be safe and get a vehicle designed for such. Not an urban cruiser

[@rodgerhatfield3068]

My congressman thinks it’s a great idea!!!