Labour’s in a mess over ‘working people’, and rightly so

[@sdbast]

It's no mistake, playing the same old divide and rule.

[@LoneSheWolf09]

Exactly. Divide and conquer.

[@RecycledBikes-jj]

Labour are in a mess because they are not really 'labour' any more....

[@RecycledBikes-jj]

Stuff keeps disappearing...

[@themoodyteam]

Tory-lite

[@RecycledBikes-jj]

@@themoodyteam same failed economic tropes. They must have heard of MMT?!?

[@LadyLuck8_4]

Labour haven’t been Labour for a very long time.

[@Hiram8866]

Yes, the term 'hard working families ' got on my nerves too.

[@UniqueSundials]

If you have not realised the Labour Party despise the white working class I don't know what you are doing teaching at University and how you got the job in the first place.

[@Lee_303]

They can't claim they're not far right when they use patronising far right populist tropes to justify their greed.

[@digitaurus]

Add a sprinkling of 'loved ones' in there too just for a full political cliche bingo card.

[@v8pilot]

Labour represents the political class - not the working class, who are now disenfranchised completely.

[@DrWrapperband]

I think its more like the a Military, Intelligence service and Corporate "cabal". Class sounds too educated, they're morons of nepotism smelling their own sh*t and thinking it's perfume..

[@carolyng40]

This podcast is so well articulated, Richard. I’m disabled now and find Labour’s attitude highly offensive. Lack of nuance seems a common problem with many of the policies Labour is now rapidly trying to implement, whether economic or justice related.

[@william_marshal]

Who can forget George Osbourne's first speech in the house of common as chancellor of the exchequer in 2010, he banged his hand on the statue book and claimed "WE WILL MAKE WORK PAY", the biggest lie he ever told as scam self employment, zero-hour-contracts, short term contracts and unpaid overtime crept into the workplace ... further on in that speech he announced a 5 year pay freeze for civil servants ... so much for we will make work pay, that promise lasted only a few minutes. Workers have always been treated as working ants by the upper classes, both Tories and Labour!!!

[@joannasimmonds3706]

It all sounds very familiar, doesn't it

[@richardpaine5923]

Working people is a deliberately misleading term.

[@OneAndOnlyMe]

Or, a widely misunderstood term.

[@graemetimoney7002]

Hard working people is even more so .

[@cobbler40]

Labour are owned by wealthy donors. I think Starmer has been anointed by Murdoch who decides who the PM will be.

[@OneAndOnlyMe]

Then why is the Murdoch media constantly attacking the new government?

[@puddyvalentine]

not forgetting ..Labour Friends of Israel...they financed his campain....

[@shugieshugied2269]

Murdoch needs to let his papers in the UK know of this decision, they don't seem to like Starmer at all. Labour gets quite a lot of donations from the trades unions, not really comparable to wealthy individuals that bankroll the Tories.

[@HighWealder]

And the zionists

[@summerrr1]

He may have supported him originally, and indeed The Sun did come out in support of Labour, but not any more. How can any serious person support Labour?

[@chillitotes]

It's eugenics. A core principle of neoliberalism

[@mollyschannel9234]

Labour isn't the Labour party anymore 😢

[@theolddog5129]

Could this be because the populus no longer wishes to elect to power a Labour party that demonstrates traditional Labour values e.g. Corbin. Elections are won, on the whole, by being slightly to the right of centre.

[@OneAndOnlyMe]

Which is no bad thing because the "working class" are also not merely labourers anymore. Most of the modern working class are knowledge workers.

[@LadyLuck8_4]

You just noticed? 😂

[@archvaldor]

Apparently working people don't use buses...you can't make this stuff up....

[@witlesswonderthe2nd883]

Idea is to fill those bike lanes along with walking everywhere with working people by pricing them out of every other option, how else do they hit the agenda 30 targets they signed up for

[@kwakkers68]

It's just another method commonly deployed. In the weird world of Westminster 'PR' getting the plebs to centre on stuff like this is preferable to having them discuss grotesque immorality, Genocide .........

[@tobyveall9906]

As John McDonnell said, "Simple request to whoever is now running Labour’s communications strategy, drop the “strivers” language as it inevitably has led in the past to reference to “skivers” prefacing attacks on welfare benefit claimants & cuts in social security support." Labour are a party devoted to Neoliberalism.

[@timothybadgett4503]

Good analysis. Labour has lost connection with its roots.

[@OneAndOnlyMe]

If Labour stayed close to its "roots" it would lose the majority of its voters in the modern age. Today the vast majority of Labour's voters are the centre ground of politics (the middle). When a political party ignore the shifting demographics of its base, then it dies.

[@fylbike]

It's not about the rich. it's about getting at the unemployed, sick and old - all our ills are the fault of these groups we are told by both parties, and many believe it

[@hughjohns9110]

It cannot be denied that there are those of working age who choose not to work, they are certainly part of the problem. Nobody is saying they are the whole problem.

[@inguzwulf]

​@@hughjohns9110 And yet many believe that to be so (and besides, I'd rather work alongside someone interested in doing 'the job at hand' rather than end up doing more than my fair share to make up for the person who is only there because they have to be).

[@hughjohns9110]

@@inguzwulf thats not true, its just propaganda by the left. Utter bs.

[@hughjohns9110]

@@inguzwulf no I think very few really believe that.

[@inguzwulf]

@@hughjohns9110 It's entirely possible that the people you rub shoulders with don't seem to believe this (perhaps they are better informed or don't outright believe the soundbites). Quite a lot of those I've rubbed shoulders with over the years have (many seem surprised when challenged - although I'm not sure they remain convinced afterwards). It is true some do choose not to work believing they are somehow 'putting one over on the man'. Yeah, I sadly shake my head too.

[@andycooper6085]

Starmer's Tories stole the 'Labour' brand. Those remaining in the party aren't part of the labour movement that the party was founded to represent.

[@ClearVista]

The only "Us and them" is that of the population and the politicians.

[@graemeshort1928]

Another informitive and incitful Video, keep them coming, we will all learn from them. *Thank you*

[@jasonali4122]

Amusingly, Murphy is really jacked off - he thought that Starmer's Government was going to lead us to the promised land. Instead, it is proved to be worse than embarrassing. And the nation is just a few months in. There's more than 4.5 years to go.

[@stevenwilliamson6236]

The first time I heard of Reeves she was saying that Labour wasn't a party for the unemployed.

[@SarahWalker-Smith]

When you put it like that it’s quite scary to think how stupid they really are. The bus fare cap increase is going to blow up in their face next . And rightly so. They evidently don’t care about ‘ working people ‘ .

[@silvafox7719]

The anti depressant companies must be making a fortune over the last couple of years. The outlook is bleak for the majority of us.

[@alanrumble7238]

Spot on as ever. I am 77 and haver been retired for many years. Under Labour thinking, I am not worth NHS spending.

[@graemetimoney7002]

yes, like myself at 73 we are " economically unviable"

[@digitaurus]

I'm afraid that ship sailed long ago. Despite the fact that the older you were the more serious covid-19 was as a disease, for someone over 70 to be given an ITU place in the UK, they had to be born lucky. I believe it was over 50% of fatalities in the over 70s but less than 5% of ITU places given to them.

[@theolddog5129]

I'm not sure of the basis of your comment. Pensioners consume more NHS resource per head than any other age group by far. As someone about to become a pensioer, I hope that younger people will always get priority for NHS resources. It is morally right and fair as well as being economically the sensible choice. We need to get away from wanting to live forever irrespective of the cost to society.

[@AlanRumble-sl8dn]

You seem to miss the point. Whilst it would be normal for the Tories to take such a hard nosed caputalist stance, old stagers like me remember when Labour was a more caring party.

[@AlanRumble-sl8dn]

@@theolddog5129 I paid tax for over 40 years and made little claim on the NHS. Now I am in need of more medical help. That is the way that things should be in a socially caring country. Read what Nye Bevan said when establishing the NHS.

[@DileepaRanawake]

People have a value in their own right - they aren’t just economic units. Very well put Richard

[@Celadonfae]

It's ridiculous that we are in a perpetual state of being governed by administrations that everyone wants gone, but have no way to remove. There is no other job on earth where you could be this incompetent and not face the sack.

[@kwakkers68]

Think about who they are really working for. < In this context they're doing exactly what they should be doing. (The City, Washington, zionists, Private Health corps, bankers....)

[@CuriousCrow-mp4cx]

Outrage farming again.

[@Celadonfae]

@@CuriousCrow-mp4cx What? Are you accusing me of outrage farming? Why? Because you don't like my opinion? And what do you mean by again? Took a look at your post and it seems you think everyone who disagrees with you is a bot. I'd get that paranoia checked out mate.

[@silvafox7719]

We live in an economy now, not a society. People don't matter. Profits do. That's neoliberalism for you

[@OneAndOnlyMe]

If we weren't governed, we'd be extinct.

[@chrisrobinson860]

Starmer is without doubt going to be going down as one of the worst prime minister’s in UK history and that’s saying something.

[@OneAndOnlyMe]

That will depend entirely on the outcomes at the end of the five year parliament. Voters typically don't care about the details, they care about the outcomes.

[@IMBlakeley]

I am far from a fan of Starmer but the last 14 years of tory misrule have been steadily worse and worse Prime Ministers, Starmer is a bit hopeless but not evil in the way that Cameron, May, Johnson, Truss and Sunak are.

[@archvaldor]

@@IMBlakeley Sorry but you haven't been paying attention. Starmer got where he is through cynical and duplicitous behavior. He is much worse than most tories - they never pretended to be anything other than selfish and cruel. You need to check out Starner's history.

[@SarahWalker-Smith]

@@archvaldor Quite right. He’s a calculating backstabber.

[@chillitotes]

​@@archvaldor I wholeheartedly agree with your analysis. I'm a libertarian anarchist and I prefer Johnson to Starmer. He was obviously a liar, Starmer is deceitful but hopes people won't notice.

[@MrPsaunders]

'Hard Work' isn't working.

[@janeknight3597]

Thank you. Very clear statement of the issue.❤

[@orientexpress1509]

Make Keir define what a “working woman” is, should be fun to watch.

[@PhilRobr]

It is not just politicians who think this way. I am offended by the term "human resources". The term was used from the I think more acceptable "personnel" .

[@kevbrown2532]

Labour saying that "the workers know who they are" is laughable. Effectively declaring a self certification system of tax responsibility. Who would declare themselves a worker when doing so would increase your tax bill? No one with any sense!

[@LadyLuck8_4]

Thankyou for putting words to the thing I could not but has been leaving a sour taste in my mouth - labours perception of working people as, as you say ‘economic units! And the front bench seem so united around this idea. I find it quite grotesque and how arrogant this party is with their babbling on about their large mandate and the scripted black hole. They were sent by the WEF to administer its favoured policies.

[@user-bi5fj3sy3i]

I just googled what percentage of the UK is on the minimum wage, it said 5 percent. If that’s true and I doubt it, it must be because another 20 percent must be paid only slightly above it! Just look at indeed job offers and see how much the average job role is offering. Certainly nowhere near 30k unless you’re working 50 plus hours a week for it. I am happy for people to be rich and wealthy, I don’t care, just pay working people in lowly positions ( which is far more of us than they will admit) a proper hourly wage, that people can actually live on!

[@goodlookinouthomie1757]

It also might mean that a significant percent are paid below minimum wage because they are "off the books" if you get my meaning.

[@Hickalum]

We are just economic units … We are fungible economic units to politicians.

[@williamcampbell9335]

Slavery never went away

[@inguzwulf]

And also to most employers.

[@UtubeRwokeLefties]

Labour is in a mess, full stop. Don't have the brains to cope.

[@cobbler40]

They keep saying workers won’t see any increase in tax on their payslip. However they will pay more indirect tax with the net result everybody will have less disposable income.

[@skyblazeeterno]

Thankfully I'm unemployed...yes one of the million plus people who are ignored

[@OneAndOnlyMe]

Voters care about the number in the lower right of their payslips (the net take home). Many voters don't even understand the tax calculations so don't look at the other numbers. For voters, they will still be taking home the same amount, therefore not paying any more tax.

[@JamesBrown-mt5ru]

Indeed, and when NI kicks in a lot of workers will no longer have jobs and voila! they won't pay tax.

[@goodlookinouthomie1757]

@skyblazeeterno Are you one of those lazy Brits they talk about who won't do the jobs that we need all these migrants for? Surely there is a care home or a car valet with vacancies in your area.

[@skyblazeeterno]

@goodlookinouthomie1757 we don't need immigrants to fill jobs

[@xAKIMBOCURLYx]

I am devastated that they're increasing employer NIC because I get my own work on contract as a consultant. IT will come straight out of my take-home. My salary is nowhere near the top bracket. They're a totally dishonest bunch and they're just trying to play class war with no idea about the detail

[@firebyrd437]

What I find chilling is the proposal to put job coaches in hospital for the mentally ill. Those in the hospital are generally admitted when in a mental health crisis. I've worked in a psychiatric unit, and what I see is patients who are not able to work. People with mental health conditions face discrimination and have done for years. This policy by labour is just awful

[@joannasimmonds3706]

Starmer can't bring himself to utter the words " working class" or " skint people"

[@dennismccarthy7032]

Thank you Richard 😊

[@HunkumSpunkum]

The Labour party no longer has any relevance......especially not in this country.

[@punditgi]

Well said!

[@michaelmayo3127]

Starmer has no understanding if social pedagogic "Working people" is his way of saying, that he isn't going to address social inequality or facilitate social change by nurturing and applying the tool of leveling fair-taxation. The gap between the poor and the wealthy; should closing, not widening.

[@lat1419]

He is actually confirming the divide, and embedding the inequality in policy.

[@OneAndOnlyMe]

@@lat1419 I see it differently. I see it more as acknowledging inequality and trying to use policy to make things a bit more fairer.

[@lat1419]

@@OneAndOnlyMe the disabled, sick and elderly don't see it as so benign. A pledge to eradicate childhood poverty, for example, or food poverty for 15m people, that might be a positive move. Instead this has got the chattering classes knicker-twisting about who is (and more importantly who isnt) included in this the new redrawing of the " deserving poor". I would expect there will be a further DEI twist added, if the stay true to form.

[@goodlookinouthomie1757]

I think there's a certain amount of pragmatism to it all, an acknowledgement that we can't possibly sustain the system the way it is. Which is reasonable, but I'd be more sympathetic to it if we weren't simultaneously sending obscene amounts of money to fund foreign wars and accommodating illegal migrants.

[@michaelmayo3127]

@@goodlookinouthomie1757 "sustain the system the way it is. Which is reasonable" What argument can there be, for wanting to sustain food banks, child poverty and a lage population of working poor and underprivileged?

[@sailawayteam]

This. You lay out the core problem of our post 20th century societal discourse.

[@aficio698]

This administration is beyond ridiculous! Is this really the best we have? This level of stupidity is dangerous.

[@jimshelley8831]

Labour certainly does not know

[@SurzhenkoAndrii]

Your tax system knows how to distinguish working and non-working people

[@Redf322]

Working people is a deliberately opaque term.

[@goodlookinouthomie1757]

Taken at face value I'd say if means anyone with a job.

[@aindriubradleymarshall6226]

The uniparty laughs, as it plays the nation like a fiddle...

[@Starmerispureevil]

Starmer can’t define a Worker But I can define a W⚓️

[@Grandude77]

How can they be so utterly unable to answer this? I can and I didn't come up with this BS.

[@kevinrobb86]

Anyone paying NI is a working person

[@nehpetsretrac]

Thanks for your analysis which was bang on. The new government keep making very naive mistakes and need to stop sounding like the last lot all of the time to pacify the right wing media.

[@manuelcamacho2836]

Your recent article on subcontracting was spot on. The problem is much bigger however. The use of facilities management companies is rife throughout local and national government. The justification is the same as using consultants, to isolate the officer or minister from any subsequent blame.

[@petermach8635]

I'm no admirer of Mr Jeremy Corbyn but when he was asked what a "working person" is ........ he had the answer immediately.

[@rocktapperrobin9372]

When I was a working person our union discovered that management called us ‘cost units’. Yet who brought in their revenue? We did. Now I’m a pendioner I learn that I’m still a cost unit.

[@stuarthutchinson2477]

Policies matter, not labels and slogans!

[@davidpickard9393]

Labour are still using the student thinking and language of an opposition party. Most Labour MPs have not had REAL jobs like most WORKING people. Is the Prime Minister a working person. I HOPE SO.

[@edpaul1434]

Well said. Starmer's "working people" and the Tories' "hard-working families" must mean those who contribute directly to the economy. There are also, however, some "hidden" ways to contribute, e.g. by voluntary work, raising children and providing care, as my late mother did, which saves the NHS money. The kindest comment on Starmer is perhaps that he's shown once more how little political sense he has.

[@monkeyboyclyde]

The man's just an empty suit waiting for his backers to fill him with policies that favour their interests . In return he and his family will be set for life with consultancy jobs in big firms etc . This seems to be the real issue with modern British politics , it's just a contest to get into power for even just 1 term to set you and your cabinet up for life on the back now favours you do .

[@saaversteen]

the tories copy and pasted 'hard working families' from gordon brown

[@alanrobinson2559]

Liz Truss was right with her budget where people who earned over 250,000 pounds shouldn't pay any income tax , these are working people

[@OneAndOnlyMe]

LMAO. No. She was a lunatic.

[@richardhale9664]

I am going to view what I suspect will be Labour's disastrous upcoming budget from the perspective, purely selfish, of myself, a working man. Even Labour must be able to recognise that I am one of those folk as I am employed for 40 hours a week working in a factory operating a forklift. 1. My next pay rise is likely to be 2% less than it would be purely because of the suspected rise in employers NIC. 2. Energy costs are so high it affects my employer's profitability considerably as well as my ability to light and heat my home. 3. Lacking suitable public transport, I am forced to drive to work but am penalised for doing so by high fuel duties and crumbling road infrastructure. I doubt the budget will address these issues positively. If I were a younger worker I would also be crippled by massive car insurance costs, and likely have to drive further to and from home because most new builds are in the middle of nowhere. 4. I have had my pension age pushed back from 65 to 67. This is not going to change for the positive either. 5. Labour are threatening to raise taxes further. When I first started work I paid 33% income tax, 9% NIC + 9% E'ers NIC and 15% tax. Now because I was low paid and living at home I spent everything I earned so my real tax rate was 66%. If I were not so low paid it would have been quite a bit less. Now I will pay possibly 20% tax, 23 or 24% total NIC and 20% VAT, plus more varied other duties. It looks like my tax rate will be around 64% before the chancellor decides to raise these or other stealth taxes. People like myself struggle whilst working, younger workers have it even tougher because of housing and childcare costs. Both are ridiculously high because of government policy. In what way is this Liebour government looking out for my interests? For this bunch of parasitic, ignorant and idiot men and women child place men to patronise me, whilst allowing one of their main paymasters (Lord Ali) to own several offshore companies paying minimal tax is deeply offensive.

[@CuriousCrow-mp4cx]

Sorry mate, but you need a better AI to help you write your comments. Quantity is not quality, when an argument meant is not based in reality. And there's certain clues in your comment that show you used an AI to create it. Why? There's no thread linking the factual beads your trying to string together. It's just a list of issues which doesn't reflect reality. You're outrage farming.

[@richardhale9664]

@@CuriousCrow-mp4cx I am sorry to see that you don't believe my life experience. No AI used at all, just reality. I am not even aware I have made an argument or proposition, more that it is a statement on how I feel, based upon what I know and what I believe likely to happen in the coming days. Now if that does not accord with your preconceptions, tough.

[@goodlookinouthomie1757]

@CuriousCrow-mp4cx Since you post the same "outrage farming" phrase in a lot of answers here, it's you who looks more like the AI my friend.

[@fischergreen4134]

Spot on

[@normaparfitt2614]

What the Hell am I supposed to do now? I have a small income on top of my state pension. I am already taxed on that. I'm old and sick, so not a 'working person'. I did work hard for 50+ years. Would it help if I crawled to Starmer's doorstep and throw myself on his mercy? I suspect not........suggestions welcome.

[@v8pilot]

Labour assumed they would be challenged on nothing.

[@OneAndOnlyMe]

I don't have a problem with regarded as an "economic unit", because that is what I am when I am working. I exchange my economic output in return for monetary payment. That doesn't mean this is all that I am. We can be an economic unit and be other things as well. When I'm not being an economic unit, I am being a consumer, a creator, an innovator, a helper, a volunteer, etc. - none of this is degraded by my by being an economic unit as well.

[@josephrobinson6171]

I think they should've talked about 'working income" and "passive income" as opposed to people.

[@Lee_303]

Let's hope someone tells Starmer to his face that he & the rest of his grifters gaslighting & patronising the people will not be tolerated.

[@xiaominghuang7388]

I subscribe because of this one, good job. However, what I guess is Labour know what Richard knows, they just use this definition for their own party benefit, not for 'work people'. If, Labour say they don't know, that's even more pathetic and dangerous for UK.

[@shaz7132]

It's the low paid, low income, low wealth..... simple, we know what they mean

[@malcolmbarnett8470]

UK Lsbour has a very strong dose of America contained therein

[@davidmcculloch8490]

Very little optimism over Labour's economic plans. We have gone from the sociopathic (Tories) to the clueless.

[@tenfour2215]

When STUPID is the best option what was written on the other cards?

[@inguzwulf]

​@@tenfour2215 Bend over?

[@DavidMax-i8s]

storm in a teacup old boy. There are many more important things in Britain to FACE!!!!!

[@ianbarnes8593]

A working person is someone who sells their labour to an employer. It’s that simple.

[@Redf322]

Correct

[@fylbike]

@@ianbarnes8593 you have obviously never run your business and employed people

[@ianbarnes8593]

@ I don’t disagree with your sentiment at all. To say employers don’t work bloomin’ hard is utterly ridiculous. Nevertheless, the definition of a working person is someone who sells his labour or skills for a wage to another person.

[@goodlookinouthomie1757]

@ianbarnes8593 Which would also include most business owners, who are selling their goods to someone else. Jeff Bezos is a working person, right? He sells his products to me.

[@chrisjourneyman]

Working people, as in not a benefit scroundger or the idle rich!

[@annepoitrineau5650]

Excellent video. Thank you. Why does Labour feel the need to repeat tory propaganda, starting with "strivers/working people" and "illegal immigrants"? And do not get me started in the current labour party's definition of "anti--semitism"...which in fact is just anti-zionism, which applies to many Jews including me.

[@inguzwulf]

Remember Peter Lilley's "I have a little list..?" Sound familiar? Same old contempt.

[@normanross3422]

As far as I can tell (and it was there in the previous Blair/Brown governments too) - the definition of a worker is a paid employee of a company and anybody who is not a paid employee of a company cannot be a worker. Also, better off employees, for some reason, are no longer classed as workers. So workers, by Labour's definition, are poorly paid employees - except for poorly paid workers who might (e.g.) own their own home - because then they are wealthy and cannot be workers...

[@noonecaresaboutgoogle3219]

"Working people" = Anyone earning no more than a train driver or civil servant.

[@domm1341]

Who are “working people”? Whatever you want them to be!

[@wicksinn]

Labour is quite accurately, a liberal party. Pretending anything else is just wrong.

[@stevenwilliamson6236]

Strivers and skivers was the phrase.

[@JupiterThunder]

We're back in the late 70s with Denis Healey. Labour has not learned the lesson of the late 70s. They will cause a recession with this budget.

[@CuriousCrow-mp4cx]

Outrage Farming is not argument.

[@markbowley5780]

Working people???? What happened to working class??? This inability to define the working class is unfarhomable to me. Its like a farce. It should be as it akways was defined by profession and income .. we all know this its not a mystery . !!! A doctor is middle class a factory worker working class .. a barrister upper middle class

[@northwestcoast]

What's the confusion? A working person is someone who works. I can understand the difficulty in defining 'working class' people, but working people is self defining. The issue isn't around the people involved, rather passive income vs active income and the way it's taxed.

[@goodlookinouthomie1757]

Why should passive income be relevant? If I work 20 hours a week and earn the same as someone else working 40 hours, is half of my income "passive"?

[@phillipbailey9615]

Economically active is what they'ed hope, (politicians), and they havent got a modern day clue , but they hope you do, for throughout successive govts, and all their blunders,they would hope we will go ahead and patch up their mistakes, and suddenly a miraculous turn around in the British economy would emerge, only possible with committed politicians.

[@seb-fluffysnowcap9530]

The simple answer requires a dash of marx. "Does your money come from ownership or from selling your labour?"

[@mcgruffallo]

And Adam Smith :) He had a lot say about economic rent too. The "father of the free market" never intended the kind of laissez-faire extremism we see today.

[@Tensquaremetreworkshop]

If you invent something great, and get a patent for it- it that income from work or 'ownership'? Should not creating value this way be rewarded, or is it rent seeking? It is the way most wealth is generated (for us all) these days.

[@mcgruffallo]

@@Tensquaremetreworkshop I think the general principle is that everyone deserves a fair reward for any real work done and real value created - but no more than a fair reward. So patents are fine provided we get the balance of rewards and time limits right.

[@Tensquaremetreworkshop]

@@mcgruffallo 'fair' - you realize there is a broad range of opinion on what this constitutes? How about copyright? Instead of 20 tears for a patent, it is 70 years after the makers death- so rewarding others. But agreed internationally. How about if I build a house, and then rent it out- how long before I am a 'rent seeker'? Or sell it, and live off the proceeds- for years? When you address an issue as complex as this, it is worth considering if your initial premise is at fault. We have a market economy, with associated rules. If you all follow the rules, why should some be discriminated against? That would be decried in sport, and surely life is even more important? Ownership- perhaps you were given it, or perhaps you made it yourself. You accept the latter (patent...) but not the former? Even though the gift was taxed (inheritance)? The problem with having views such as yours is the extreme difficulty of achieving consistency. And ensuring that your motivation is not envy. Remember, if someone else is gifted a large sum, that does not diminish you in any way. 'Real' - wow. Can of worms. As a systems designer, I am aware that many of my best designs came from my subconscious. I would deliberately absorb the requirements and sleep on it. Usually, I woke up with a clear idea of the way forward. Is this 'real' work? The customer did not care- he got a good design, created with unbillable hours (I never charged for sleep time). Was it 'real'? The design was. Is it the process (the 'work') or the result that counts?

[@Charlie-oj4wj]

Taxpayers, producers and consumers is what we are - the source of all wealth. Labour needs to change it's name.

[@OneAndOnlyMe]

I have long said this about the name also. There is no working class anymore in the modern age. We're all consumers/producers. I think a better name now would be "Social Democrats", or just "Democrats". I think having the word "democrats" is vital as the word "conservatism" is starting to be seen as moving toward authoritarianism these days.

[@alancran7612]

I have been self employed for 40 years and work 80 hours a week. I own property and investments and I get well paid so I am not a working person! - Or part or a hard working family. I agree - this is Labours black hole - or a rabbit hole.

[@andrewturton484]

They don’t know what a woman is, so why should they know what a working person is?

[@OneAndOnlyMe]

Grow up.

[@safirahmed]

Biology, chromosomes, hormone levels and reproductive characteristics determine whether a person is biological male or biological female.

[@AW12-W]

Someone whose lifestyle is augmented by loadsa freebies?

[@JSmith19858]

I thought it was fairly obvious. They mean low to average earners, employed or self employed. It’s taxing higher earners without directly saying it, as it would set off the Tory media

[@annepoitrineau5650]

You have reached 30.1K! Great!!

[@annepoitrineau5650]

@TheRichardJMurphy Why not. How?

[@ebnanaann5644]

Many staff shortages up here in shops and in NHS but it seems not many people are interested in working cause they will loose their benefits That is the stumbling block cutting benefits so people have to work

[@iansutton8802]

That point about people as ‘economic units’ is the key message here. I think there’s no such thing as ‘Left’ or ‘Light’ anymore or even ‘labour’ and ‘capital’. The contemporary political spectrum is between those who view people as human beings (let’s call them ‘humanists’ for want of a better word, though I know it’s taken!) and those who see humans purely as economic units (or, ‘humanomics’, as I like to call them). ALL political parties seem to be built on humanomics these days. It’s like that New Conservative obsession with falling birth rates. There’s no acknowledgement that people may not want to have children cos the world is a skip fire - oh no, its just catastrophic for the bottom line. Give people a reason to live then maybe growth might follow. Don’t make growth the expectation as to why we need to live.

[@graemetimoney7002]

i was saying this to my wife this morning. They never talk of making our lives better or more comfortable or making us happier and more fulfilled . They only talk about economic growth , both sides are obsessed with this constant striving towards growth for growth's sake.

[@inguzwulf]

And we all know that continuous growth is a myth because just like a house of cards sooner or later...

[@goodlookinouthomie1757]

Falling birth rates though.... they are fine as long as you can import millions of people from elsewhere to keep up with the perpetual growth that our economy mandates. This in itself is predicated on the ideology that all people are the same and interchangeable. Which is why they'd have us believe the moment that Somalian tribesman's foot touches the sand of a Sussex beach, he becomes as British as you or I.

[@paulgibbons2320]

The spoils of working are not divided correctly. This is why we have working families going to food banks. People who rent and people who own property live in completely different realities. Both hurling abuse at each other. But neither can really appreciate where the other comes from. Working to pay rent is serfdom in 2024. There is no good outcome for these people. They are accepting the unacceptable.

[@theolddog5129]

Agreed. This is our fundamental issue.

[@highpath4776]

It would appear that we have a definition basically that taxes on Earnings (from Work) should be different from taxes from Income (From investment) . There was already a big treasury rehash on things like Furnished Holiday Lettings - including those "under the same roof" where folk obviously worked to provide the accomodation in a clean way. Likewise some "landlords" run their houses as businesses including keeping the properties up to scratch as required by landlord licencing (inc EPC standards)

[@downshift4503]

Couldn't agree more. People have long been conditioned to think of the term "working people" as those who aren't "shirking", popular a few decades ago to blame the unemployed for their own predicament. According to Starmer, those with a bob or two wouldn't become a "working person" even if they got themselves a job. Every time if he says those two words, as he did repeatedly yesterday, all I instead hear is "working poor" (unless you are a Labour minister paid £100k+)

[@indricotherium4802]

'Hey Ho, Hey Ho, it's off to work we go.' First and foremost, Labour wanted to send the right signals to business leaders, to the unions somewhat and to any others who can be made to buy the mantra that growth, growth, growth is the one and only answer to addressing the nation's current and future problems. Thus, given Starmer and Reeves' cartoon, nostalgic take on the economy, there was no pay off in them thinking any deeper about the 'working people' tagline.

[@nickbarton3191]

I agree, completely offensive.

[@MrAlb3rtazzo]

Most of uk people don't like labour party, i am wondering why they ahve all voted for them a few months ago.

[@clive-live]

Paid employment Example Employee, self-employed, business owners, etc Unpaid Employment Examples Parents, carers, students including children, disabled and pensioners, etc Is working or simply work

[@roymillsjnr5172]

Does he mean working people ,which everyone works if you are not sick , or the manual working class , the old labouring class ,hence the name labour party was born . I agree with all your prognosis here Richard .they have little insight of how communities work , or perhaps they do ,and thats more frughtening .

[@skyblazeeterno]

You can actually be unemployed but not sick

[@robertturner2516]

Qualifications are a big barrier to overcome... when ever there is a gap in the market, people take the time to qualify, then there is an influx in that skill and those jobs dry up (but after having to wait for those to qualify up)