Late Medieval French Release Technique

[@ThisOldHat]

Have you ever thought about writing a book about various forms of traditional archery from around the world?

[@alexwest2573]

I’d buy that book

[@jamesrileyish]

Thanks for this. I started archery about a year ago and I always had a problem with the arrow falling of the shelf during the draw. It got pretty frustrating. I've been trying with this draw. And it works. I don't have that problem any more.

[@sb-ant6457]

Not having a chariot, I stood in the rear of the jeep while my assistant drove, aim was poor but I didn't drop in arrow off the bow shelf in all the excitement. Boxing day laughs and it's not even lunchtime yet. Thx

[@rolldysharpshooter6593]

Keep it up. I like that you're doing this kinda historical archery documentary stuff

[@TheLastLancer]

Excellent video. I'm getting back into field archery after 40 years -covid 19 permitting, and I'm definitely going to use this technique. I've just practised a few draws, and as J Brook has said, it seems subjectively to make for an easier draw.

[@Leprecaun123]

Just tried this out briefly. Is it possible that one of the reasons a deeper grip on the index finger may also be used is to help with drawing higher draw weights? I seem to be finding that there is a much more solid grip on the string with it sitting on the second joint of the index finger making it much easier to draw. The modern way, as I'm used to, seems to actually add more tension onto the fingers, and I'm getting a smoother draw across the entire draw length with the method described in this video.

[@ryddragyn]

I've had that thought myself. It's a subjective feeling, though, hard to precisely measure.

[@Leprecaun123]

@@ryddragyn Very true. That is why I'm unsure myself, but it happened to be something I seemed to notice instantly.

[@ryddragyn]

One other thing I have noticed is that the slight sideways twist induced by the deeper index hook helps with doing an extreme, behind the ear overdraw. Sort of like I do here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/nniyhWuQeb2Bi6M You can see one of the Assyrian archers blatantly doing a deeper index hook in one image. For the other images, it's possible to interpret their draw hand in a lot of other ways, though. Some people think it looks like a tertiary draw, others a thumb draw, etc.

[@Leprecaun123]

@@ryddragyn The tertiary draw theory never made sense to me but maybe that's because I don't get on with that draw personally. I live in London so I'm lucky enough that I am able to go and see a lot of the reliefs displayed in that video. After seeing you're videos on the Persians I wouldn't be surprised if one of the draws shown is an adapted thumb draw with two fingers. That draw makes sense to me as its relatively useful. At least to me it looks like it and a lot of other areas of Persian society seems to be influenced, at least in part, by things the Assyrians pioneered. Everything is speculation though and I'm not a qualified historian by any stretch of the imagination.

[@durandal441]

I use this hook when shooting ELBs. I find the wrist alignment very comfortable with this draw.

[@josephnebeker7976]

And I think the essence of practical real world archery is those who find a different way to do it that works for them, to do it their way. From what I've noticed, there isn't one way that works for everyone, and there isn't only one way that everybody should do it. When I watch videos or read comments or books from those who suggest multiple ways archery can be performed, or who propose alternate ways for those who want it, I am far more interested and likely to listen to them than those who continue to push the idea that the arrow must/can only be shot from the left side of the bow and with Mediterranean grip. At least you didn't say everybody should shoot like an Olympic Archer. That is a niche style and is practically counterintuitive in practical and intuitive archery.

[@ryddragyn]

All I really present here is evidence that suggests that the author was likely referring to the generalized left side Med draw shooting pattern that is present in many different cultures the world over, with different variations. This being just one alternate version of that method. I do have quite a few videos on thumb draw/right side shooting topics, if you want to look at those.

[@jrs4516]

i've always drawn like this to an extent when using 3 finger. it's just more comfortable than having your fingers perpendicular to the sting which forces you to have more "twist" in your wrist. there's an interesting trend in the pictures of the african archers where they seem to have a very muscular forefinger compared to the rest. they must practice a lot and be using pretty heavy bows.

[@jeffslade1892]

If you place your thumb up along the back of the bow it bends the wrist inwards resulting in a poor grip and will get smacked very hard by the string on release. Having the ball of the thumb on the back of the bow will force it to kick downwards, plus the thumb cannot take the pressure of a large bow. Once drawn any tight grip on the bow needs to be relaxed, the pressure from drawing keeps the bow in the hand. This allows the action of the bow to be released sweetly, only enough grip to prevent dropping it. The french archers did not have the long practised techniques of the english whom they mimicked.

[@ryddragyn]

While I'm not the biggest fan of the vertical thumb position, I personally haven't had wrist slap when trying it out. It's still very possible to rotate the elbow clockwise sufficient to avoid string slap. The biggest draw back to me seems to be slightly more felt handshock, and - depending on the bow handle - a not secure position for the bow. But other handles have felt perfectly secure, even at over 60 pounds. Horace Ford talks about this being a habit among some English archers of his time (1850's and 60's). But he disliked it himself.

[@Cogitovision]

Another way to hold the arrow on the bow during the draw is to put the string slightly deeper on the fingers than the first knuckle. As you draw, you also let the string roll down to the first knuckle. The fingers squeeze the knock while sliding away from the face. This motion has the effect of pulling the arrow toward the bow. Anyway, that's how I do it.

[@claeslillieskold2398]

Do you know if this does this in any way affect the release? I used to this, but stopped after someone made a comment, but I don't remember the reason.

[@traviswest2546]

Something to consider.....if your not shooting with a leather glove or "fingers"....shooting this way will almost never give you a blister on your index.

[@Cogitovision]

I usually get the blister on the ring finger.

[@garychynne1377]

excellent

[@brucenovotny5924]

Very interesting. Thank you. 👍🙂🇨🇦

[@Master-Shannon]

Interesting, I just recently started archery with a 50lb bare bow and I started doing this naturally anchoring to the ear. Maybe because to make use of effective biomechanics I expand the chest and roll the shoulder into position so this type of grip seems follow naturally. ...as for any aficionado comments about draw weights for beginners not interested... So maybe this natural for hunters and warriors who can afford 1 bow.

[@zoranpavlovic9540]

Great observations!

[@demos113]

Very good information, thank you.

[@cameronstewart6636]

New! Ancient techniques rediscovered, negating everything you thought you knew about archery! Modern archers do it all wRoNG! Tower: Houston, you're coming into atmosphere, we hope you had a nice visit to la-la land. Now to be serious. I wasn't aware of this, but unlike a certain viral KZbinr, you didn't make any claims that I could easily refute. I didn't notice anything that was questionable and I liked how you admitted (possibly indirectly, I have only viewed once so far) that the French likely had multiple styles employed in their service. I speculate that veterans and other seasoned archers would serve as coaches (more like drill sergeants) for dozens if not hundreds of military archers. Each one would either teach the army official version of archery, with their own flair, or perhaps they were given more freedom to teach their own style to their troops. The second is how it was in the USA before the standardization of Kisik Lee, circa 2010. Of course, after several years, there's like 75% teaching the National Training System (NTS) and 25%, give or take, teaching other systems. That became wordy, because I'm apparently tired. P.s. I used to look up stuff like this when I was in high school or college and had to write a paper on something. Also I'm a level 3 USA Archery coach that has been an archer for 16+years.

[@ryddragyn]

Thanks for the kind words. The French source material is evidently civilian/sporting in nature, so it's hard to say how much any of what the author writes about relates to military training, although the distances he talks about shooting at are pretty impressive-sounding: "For good archers the range should be three hundred paces. Nevertheless I have formerly seen shooting at four hundred paces, but it must be admitted that the archers were first-class ones (bons exquiz archiers)." King Modus and Gaston Phoebus, the other French sources on archery, relate totally to hunting.

[@mortenjacobsen5673]

from a modern prospective with the science we know today everything about this way of release witch is more a grabbing the string thing , hook and release go together. if you dont bother about release . arrow pinch or consistency ...your free to muck about

[@ryddragyn]

I personally haven't experienced any arrow flight or accuracy issues with this method. Some people with much, much shorter bows have reported some issues, but some of that could be down to individual execution. In fairness, the method is normally used with longer bows.

[@DavidJimenez-gc1fy]

Very interesting. Thanks.

[@bubbahottep8644]

Interesting. This might resolve the many images of the arrow on the right side of the bow.

[@ryddragyn]

How so?

[@ryddragyn]

If anything, the treatise evidence reinforces why the left side practice is virtually universal. The artwork is a historical cartoon, nothing more.

[@Rajhamsa]

I have been told that applying pressure on to the arrow with the index finger can cause "tuning issues". Is this your experience?

[@ryddragyn]

Excessive pressure or pinch can sometimes cause arrow flight issues, but I wouldn't categorize those as tuning issues per se.

[@Rajhamsa]

@@ryddragyn Thanks.

[@lonewolf8820]

I believe the famous archer Howard Hill used this draw

[@shaundouglas2057]

At last some new historical evidence on how longbows may have been used (iam speculating the French use of the longbow as far as i know that was the bow they used) their is plenty of speculation and alot of nonsense currently out their. Great video this i´ll be trying when i shoot tomorrow. Now if only we could find some evidence on how heavy the English Longbows actually where back then. Some people who have examined the Mary Rose Longbows say 70 to 90 lbs others say 120 up to 180 lbs, the only person i know off who´s opinion i trust is Bowyer Pip Bickerstaffe of Bickerstaffe Bows in England he´s made exact replicas of the Mary Rose Bows and cannot get them any heavier than 90 lbs. Read his book "The Medieval Warbow a Bowyer´s thoughts" if you like reading about people´s opinions backed up with constructive research.

[@peterchessell28]

They used the crossbow.

[@jeffslade1892]

The fact is that the Mary Rose bows range from 70 to 180-lb, possibly more. Personally I cannot draw a bow of *less* than 75-lb or I do not open my back properly to lock out the string. And again I slightly object to the term 'warbow' since these are simply longbows and not specifically for military use, the differentiation is that the small bows are used for shooting light arrows, and the heavy bows for arrows of maybe 6-ounces with half inch shaft and heavy head. Just because an archer can shoot a heavy bow it doesn't mean they would always do so in practice. It is perfectly possible to build a longbow of 120-lb, these are quite common, the heaviest I have drawn of some 160-lb.

[@shaundouglas2057]

The fact is their is no evidence what so ever that longbows for military use were ever above 100 lbs. Unless any evidence turns up to show otherwise i'll stick with the current evidence.

[@notfeedynotlazy]

The Mary Rose bows range from 70 to 180+ pounds, and that already teaches us something. *They were **_not_** all the same power.* The incredibly powerful, 200 pounds bows able to put arrows _through_ oaken doors, as some chronicles state, seem to be the exception more than the norm - something supported by the _very fact_ that they found that worthy of being chronicled, instead of it being the expected outcome. I'm not the strongest archer in the world, yet even I am more than able to draw a 65-pounds selfbow. Having a good archer being able to consistently draw the 70 to 100 pounds range that is mentioned above. With both things in mind, a "common" war bow seems to be in that 70 to 100 pounds range, and the extra-heavy ones seem to be not "common" but special cases, being the medieval equivalent of our anti materiel rifles.

[@shaundouglas2057]

@@notfeedynotlazy Their is still know evidence what so ever on what poundage longbows were nowhere in historical texts has a number been mentioned on their bows poundage, the only constructive research i am currently going to trust is from bowyer Pip Bickerstaffe his book The Medieval Warbow a Bowyers Thoughts, is a well researched and written book as he goes into the materials used for string construction and the arrows notch's size found from the Mary Rose wreck something as far as i know nobody else has researched. Until somebody out their discovers evidence of the bows used poundage the rest is just here say and if they discover they did indeed shoot 100 plus bows than i'll be all for it but until than i'll be sticking with what seems to be historically accurate and not what seems to be wishful thinking.

[@ElizaberthUndEugen]

What bow is that? Looks cool. Super slim shelf.

[@ryddragyn]

javamanarchery.com/bows/assyrian/ Custom version with no shelf, for rule compliance with some horse archery organizations.

[@kaikart123]

The frogs were just being hipster, they didn't want to use the same release as the English longbowmen

[@archeryboras5921]

Interesting.

[@maxnordlund7928]

Does anyone know what the "screen" mentioned in the same text is?

[@ryddragyn]

I've read that passage many times, and I'm still not sure what is meant by it. It sounds sort of like an arrow curtain/backstop netting used for shooting long distance at mounts of earth (the bells are a clever idea for letting you know if the curtain was hit). But how it's arranged (ten feet off the ground?) is bizarre. There might be something lost in translation.

[@DuckcuD]

@@ryddragyn he might mean from the ground up to a height of ten feet?

[@johnminnitt8101]

As I have always understood this the screen was half way between archer and target, at a height according to the formula in that text, such as 10ft for 100 yards. The idea was to hit the target without touching the screen (ie no bell rung). The aim being to achieve a flat enough trajectory by use of a powerful bow and good technique. An encouragement to strong shooting. I'm sure I saw some such explanation but don't recall where. Old age, failing memory, sorry.

[@johnminnitt8101]

To clarify, the bottom edge of the screen was 10ft up. Seems a bit low to get under at that range to me.

[@thewolf1801]

What type of bow is that?

[@ryddragyn]

javamanarchery.com/bows/assyrian/

[@eqlzr2]

Thanks for this instructive, intelligent video. I almost feel as though I can do brain surgery now. ;-) I have to find another video with some guy with his hat on backwards making a stupid face to bring me back to center. Haha, just kidding. This was a great video and addressed a problem I'm having with finger pinch shooting Mediterranean with my Nomad Warriors horse bow.

[@ryddragyn]

You can also try loosening the index finger off the string, much like the Bhutanese do. (Though I honestly prefer longer bows no matter what release I use. Less stack, smoother, etc)

[@eqlzr2]

Thanks! It helps!

[@adamsowacki2605]

Hey on this side it tells that i just gave you 2000 sub :D

[@ryddragyn]

Thanks!

[@adamsowacki2605]

livecounts.net/channel/ryddragyn

[@adamsowacki2605]

​ ryddragyn i should thank you for your creativity and lots of work you put to your videos

[@VennerYay]

or just use a compound bow 🤔

[@MrXyron]

Real man use thumb release..

[@ryddragyn]

Many historical archers were trained in both. They each have their pros and cons that balance each other out more than some people realize. Sometimes arguments about one vs the other are rooted more in ethnic or racial pride than anything else.

[@acvarthered]

@@ryddragyn And what exactly are the advantages of the 3 finger release? I have shot both and I just don't see any advantage for the 3 finger release other then "that is what I am used to".

[@ryddragyn]

Even the most die hard thumb ring enthusiasts will readily admit that it's easier and less technical to be accurate and have acceptably straight arrow flight with 3 fingers. It's simple and very robust. The grip and release requirements are less stringent, plus the sight picture is cleaner with the arrow on the left side of the bow. It's one of those methods that just WORKS. Hence why you see finger draws utterly dominate among hunter gatherer tribes. "Keep it simple stupid". I'd also argue that it's inherently less painful to pull heavy draw weights, as the load is distributed over a greater surface area and over more tissue. Obviously a well-executed thumb draw has its own advantages. Increased draw length/ power stroke, reduced finger pinch and cleaner release with shorter bows. etc. Obviously it's very stable on horseback, but that's a nuanced topic, as Med can be very stable too if done properly.

[@acvarthered]

@@ryddragyn How can med give you more acceptable straight arrow flight if you can't do khatra with it? Both are equal without khatra, but with the thumb release you have the option to use khatra to avoid archers paradox.

[@ryddragyn]

So first off, archer's paradox (which is NOT the same thing as arrow oscillation) isn't something to be avoided. The technical definition of the paradox is that the arrow flies to where it points at full draw, instead of to where it points in the predraw position. The "paradox" is a desirable outcome. That's a common misunderstanding among both novice and experienced archers. Second, I did NOT say Med draw gave "more acceptable" flight than thumb. You're misunderstanding what I wrote. Rather, I wrote that it was easier to get acceptable flight with Med than thumb. Or to put it another way, the arrow flight of Med draw reaches good standards with less effort. More than once, I've seen novice archers struggle repeatedly with wacky thumb draw arrow flight (e.g.extreme oscillation and the arrows colliding with the handle), but then get clean, low oscillation flight on their very first shot with Med draw! Not being able to do Khatra with med draw isn't really a disadvantage. Because it just really isn't necessary in the first place. So in that sense, no they are not equal without khatra. Getting clean flight with thumb draw without khatra takes a lot more discipline. Now of course, the cleanest flight imaginable can be done with certain thumb rings AND khatra. I should know, I've done it with that cylindrical Nubian ring. Zero oscillation. But that is moving well beyond the standard of "good"/acceptable, and onto "perfect".

[@rodparsons521]

I'm not really interested in the opinions of someone who (i) uses modern equipment (shelves and snap on nocks) and (ii) does not focus on describing the specific practical benefits and shortcomings in each case. Nothing new here, but useful in encouraging a wider view of methods used in other times and places.

[@ryddragyn]

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. The fact that I use a mixture of non-shelved and shelved bows somehow invalidates the information and interpretations that I'm sharing? How so, specifically?

[@ryddragyn]

Also, what is "does not focus on describing specific practical benefits and shortcomings in each case" in reference to?

[@Rubafix989]

And absolutely no one is interested in reading unnecessarily rude and non-constructive comments.

[@peterchessell28]

This didnt help the french much the english hammered them. with theirs Crecy ,Agincourt , Poitiers etc.

[@ryddragyn]

The French seem to have mostly used archery for sporting purposes.

[@peterchessell28]

@@ryddragyn Theyd have lost that too if the english and welsh bowmen had been there too

[@Taistelukalkkuna]

Yet they still managed to lose the war.

[@alejandroleyva2833]

Poitiers was a famous battle where French army defeat the Muslims...

[@peterchessell28]

@@alejandroleyva2833 Idiot

[@geoffss2530]

Oh how we laughed at this video :D ........ you claim it is a French release technique and yet all the people you showed using it were ? shall we say of African appearance and it even looked like Africa and not a bit like France.... oh and that release is in fact known as the Mediterranean release and not the French release....... oh and yes, I am an archer, a traditional and proud English longbow archer with many years of experience including competition and field archery.

[@ryddragyn]

Geoff, I would respectfully ask that you please rewatch the video, as I fear you've misunderstood it. 1) I specifically use the term "Mediterranean release", less than 30 seconds in. 2) The historical French manuscript referenced in the video describes a very specific variation of the Mediterranean release, thus I am referring to this variation as "French", as it is not described in any other manuals. 3) The "African"-appearing people are using the same variation of the Mediterranean release as described in the French manuscript, and the convergent evolution of technique (or mere coincidence, depending on one's perspective) is something I found very interesting. The Jarawa group are actually located in South Asia, by the way.

[@ryddragyn]

On the off chance that there is some technical issue with the sound, here is the script for the narration: Around the year 1515, an anonymous Frenchman wrote a short book which was eventually published as “the art of archery”. The author was an archer who had grown ill, and he wanted to preserve knowledge which had not yet been committed to writing. One slightly odd method that the french author describes is his manner of drawing the bow. He describes what is essentially the classic split finger form of the 3 finger Mediterranean release, with the arrow held between the index and middle finger. But instead of the typical modern practice of holding the string on or around the distal joint of all three fingers, the author advises that “…One must have and hold the string on the second joint of the first finger, and on the first joint of the third…” There are two possible ways to interpret this passage. One has has the lower finger hooked more deeply, the other has the index finger hooked more deeply. In my opinion, the deeply hooked index finger method is more likely to have been what the author meant, in part because it offers some interesting practical advantages, but also because this method of drawing the bow is not restricted to late medieval europe. In fact, it appears to be practiced among some tribal hunter gatherer societies that still rely on archery to survive. Two significant examples are the Jarawa Tribe from the Andaman islands, and the Hadza people from Tanzania. In footage of both Jarawa and Hadza archers, one can clearly see that the string is frequently, though admittedly not always, borne more deeply upon the middle joint of the index finger, while the other fingers hold it more shallowly, upon the distal joint. This, and the aggressive, often dynamic shooting posture are strikingly reminiscent of medieval european archery. The deeply hooked index finger may be one possible solution to a common issue that many novice archers experience, in which the arrow tends to swing away from the bow at partial draw. Normally, this instability is resolved simply by reducing unnecessary tension in the draw hand, allowing for a more even and efficient hold on the string. But the French, Jarawa, or Hadza draw provides an additional, complementary solution. The downward angle of the index finger puts a slight sideways pressure on the back end of the arrow. This slightly rotates the front end against the handle, making it nearly impossible for the arrow to swing outwards. As an aside, this phenomenon also strongly supports the idea that for the anonymous medieval french author, the arrow was placed on the left side of the bow, which is - not surprisingly - also exactly how it is done for virtually all tribal archers that use a Mediterranean draw. Interestingly, the author also mentions how the archer should “should poise his bow on the thumb of the hand with which he holds it when he shoots”. This is another common practice among some tribal groups, and is also seen in some historical artwork. Again, this would seem to strongly support left side arrow placement, as only the knuckle is available to serve as an arrow rest. The capturing action of the deeply hooked index finger is vaguely reminiscent of the way the thumb draw securely holds the arrow against the bow. The bow can even be shot upside down, and I’ve seen many instances of modern horse archers using a similar angled (or twisted) mediterranean draw to help with arrow stability on a cantering horse. In fact, I have used it myself in this manner. But. I will add a significant caveat to this: in my experience with horseback archery so far, the biggest factor in arrow stability is the archer’s riding ability. Putting weight in the stirrups, and getting your weight off the horses back, smooths things out tremendously, to the point where you almost don’t have to do anything to keep the arrow stable. So, while I have used a deeply hooked index finger in some circumstances, at present, I find it completely unnecessary. It’s worth nothing that there is a separate medieval french manual, the book of king modus, that specifically deals with bow hunting from horseback. Sometimes the archers are described as shooting while stationary, and at other times they shot at prey while in motion. But, while the archers are told to draw to the ear with three fingers, there is no mention of any modified Mediterranean draw. We’ll never know if the release described in the art of archery was a commonplace practice, or merely an eccentric preference of the anonymous author. To the eyes of a modern archer, it may seem a bit unusual, but as the modern examples of the hadza and jarawa illustrate, it was likely a simple and robust technique. And at the end of the day, that’s the essence of practical, real world archery.

[@AnimaTriste]

Geoff Ss, It amazes me, really, how someone, who is not able to understand at all a clear, very informative five minutes video, is on the other hand capable of using the modern technology to post a very stupid comment. It is a dangerous time in which we are living. So, just for You, because I fear, that You will not understand again: You should not interpret my comment as a compliment or support to You in any way.

[@stevehunt4660]

What, such arrongance from an English gentleman, im aghast...