The Slavic and Bhutanese Draw

[@rogerbuss6069]

I have ALWAYS (and unknowing this history) used this "Slavic" draw and release method for the reason of finger pinch. I was self taught but had no knowledge of this "Slavic" way. It was just more comfortable and simply felt natural to shoot this way. It was 40 years ago when I began shooting and I continue this method today. It WORKS!

[@MichaelAussie05]

This is a brilliant video. We have a large group of Bhutanese archers at our local archery club, they use compounds bows and I have seen them use this method of draw and release.

[@mcmatrix58]

Thumbs up here, Ryd. I have had index finger pinch for ages now shooting shorter American longbows and I have been shooting minimal index finger contact on the release just as you illustrate with the Bhutanese. Cheers!

[@mcmatrix58]

PS..Great Videos - please keep them coming :)

[@arax20]

What a gem of a channel!

[@rooroo9216]

1:30 I found exactly this to be the case aswell. I started off with 3 under as an archer aswell, but I also shoot a lot of Korean bows like that one too. The thing is I thought myself to use Mediterranean/split finger off it because having a finger above and below the arrow helps me “pinch” it onto the string even if the arrow nocks or string serving is giving me nocking problems

[@societyofrobots]

I find that when I speed shoot, there isn't enough time to get the thumb in place. Much faster to just not use the thumb.

[@CarlitosMayo]

Thanks. Great information.

[@garychynne1377]

BOY RYD U SURE DO COME UP SOME INTERESTING STUFF. THANK YEW GARE

[@garychynne1377]

high ryd. just revisiting. second time around helps absorb more. good movies. thank yew. take care gare

[@0hn0haha]

A lot of older Russian illustrations from the 1400's and onward show a mix of short and more European bows. They definitely had a pragmatic relationship with the composite bow, keeping it around for a while after the mongols were kicked out.

[@Rouxzie]

Interesting video, thumbs up. I recently started shooting in a "similar" manner. I shoot Mediterranean except the second crease of the index finger touches the string. This helps for relaxing my forearm at anchor and I feel it gives me a cleaner release. It probably has to do with the way muscles and tendons are connected in the forearm idk.

[@ryddragyn]

By "second crease" do you mean the crease closer to the hand, or the one closest to the tip of the finger?

[@Rouxzie]

ryddragyn the one closest tp the hand. My ring and middle finger draw on the crease closest to the fingertips. Then at full draw my index finger relaxes and is used for anchoring

[@ryddragyn]

Got it. What you're doing sounds a little like a hybrid of the Slavic draw and the Hadza draw, the latter being where they have the string in the second groove of the index finger, but all the other fingers have it in the first groove. The same draw is described by a late medieval/early renaissance french treatise.

[@texian91]

Very interesting theory. I can’t think of any reason to doubt it as a possibility. Simply a modified Mediterranean when in contact with a sharp string angle- brilliant.

[@redchilli450]

Brilliant observation. Very well explained, thank you.

[@blindarchershaunhenderson3769]

Whilst this is an interesting video, there are a few points which are missed completely, especially in relation to the bhutanese style, the Slavic release is used when shooting outside, or on the right side, of the bow, the index finger is used to keep the arrow pressed against the side of the bow, especially when the bow is cannted over to the right, if the bhutanese used the Slavic style draw, the arrow would fall of because they shoot inside the bow, on the left, if you observe carefully you will see that the index finger is actually fully relaxed and does nothing, instead the arrow is held on the string by the thumb, which also applies sideways pressure to keep it resting against the bow, the bhutanese string grip and release is actually a modified pinch grip, and is much more archaic than any modern string grip and release. The point about the string angle on shorter Eurasian bows is also a false, the reason why many cultures adopted a thumb release was to facilitate the use of longer arrows up to 36" in length if you use a Slovak or Mediterranean draw you cannot physically drawn to these length because your hand will not turn sufficiently The thunder rolls use to allow the hand and wrist to turn sufficiently to draw lose longer shaft it has nothing to do with string angle, I regularly should a 40 inch long short Turkish horsebow using both static and Mediterranean release techniques with no pinching on the fingers, I am 6-ft tall and have very large hands and string pinch is not an issue, whilst these videos are interesting I feel they're just repeating what has been previously postulated by other academics who have done no real research into the subject,

[@ryddragyn]

As noted in other comments: the original treatise evidence describing the slavic draw does not actually indicate which side of the bow to put the arrow on. The right side placement is an aggressive assumption. The original treatises also do not specify that the index finger places pressure on the arrow. Merely that it is extended along the arrow. The bhutanese archers are also clearly not using the thumb to pinch the arrow. If you can find a specific picture that shows this, please cite it. The Bhutanese' technique is actually fairly common in the "barebow" compound community, by the way.

[@blindarchershaunhenderson3769]

@@ryddragyn yes there are similar techniques used in horsebow communities to that used by the bhutanese, but with the index finger coming into play, I think the note that the index finger is extended along the shaft of the arrow is explicitly saying that it is in contact with the arrow, however, they are shot almost exclusively outside the bow, i,e, on the right, ifyou use this horsebow technique with a bhutanese bow, which is shot inside the bow, i.e. on the left, you will find yourself pushing the arrow off the bow, as for reading the other comments on the video I'd rather not, I'd rather listen and respond to your video, at least this was made by somebody wanting to learn about the subject, and attempting to pass on that knowledge, there are far too many know-it-alls, such as myself, in the comments section😎🏹🙏

[@mannatuu]

very interesting .. good video

[@getsmart2594]

I am glad you wrote this up , because I was researching this movie " Arrows of the Thunder Dragon " basically stemming from Bhutan conventional 3 finger archery which came way after the Bhutan assassination of a Buddist King. If you can do this traditional Bhutan cham / dance in this video below then anything is obtainable. Seriously watch the movie named " Arrows of the Thunder Dragon " and do this dance here. On the lighter side, with a group of guys and a dance like that.....there must be alcohol involved at some point. LOL kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z2jJlqOQrLqse6M

[@user-bi6eg1lo7v]

Thank you kindly for such an informative video. I am a new archer.

[@letssee8397]

A lot of good information here, but not a fan of the conjecture pointing in the same direction. Reviewing plausibilities should equal out, promoting and preserving diversity of open perspective, not direct it or make suggestive qualities that others could take into conclusion.

[@vanivanov9571]

Great video. A pity your channel wasn't more popular, or it might've prevented some historical fanfiction that's been going around.

[@YISHRAELi]

The same method we are using in South India , its an ancient wisdom from book of Maha Bharata

[@igorabdoaguilar9331]

do you use normal fingertabs for this draw?

[@EREBO95]

Great video

[@tangobayus]

If the Bhutanese are getting compound bows, why not get a nice modern release as well?

[@ryddragyn]

Probably because they are only interested in getting bows that have superior arrow speed compared to their bamboo ones. Otherwise, they appear to totally eschew sights and mechanical release aids.

[@9FacedDeathEatingDeity]

Late comment but anyways, many have tried the trigger release but did not like how it handled. It quickly fell out of favor and everyone prefers the old method. Sights and scopes are not really relevant as well since the distance between the targets is over 150 yards and the targets are about 3 feet in height and about a foot wide.

[@rapmamori4136]

New to compound (& archery overall). Tried to shoot my compound without release aid and my string got off essentially dryfired it. How to avoid it while shooting the compound barebow? Got scared after that.

[@ryddragyn]

Shorter length compounds are really not meant to be shot without a release aid, unfortunately. If you want to shoot without a release aid, it's probably best to get a longer length one.

[@rapmamori4136]

@@ryddragyn thank u so much for your time to reply & share your knowledge to a beginner like me, I really appreciate it. Make sense now I notice after I went to archery store to check & restring my compound, and tried to see whats happening when I pull it without release aid, the tight angle made by my (short) bow make the nock loose a bit. Thank u again for the advice 🙏🙏🙏

[@gushlergushler]

Do you believe there is a big difference in possible drawweight based upon the fact that the index finger does not bear load at the end of the draw? I have seen many people draw with the index finger stretched out during the entire draw, would that impact possible draw weight a lot or do you believe middle, ring and pinky finger can compensate?

[@ryddragyn]

There's a possible reduction in max weight, but I can handle my heavy bows with two fingers just fine.

[@gushlergushler]

@@ryddragyn That is encouraging, thank you for the swift answer.

[@alternator7893]

When i get tired of using a thumb ring i switch to tab, but use my index finger to hold the arrow in place on a left handed bow. Im right handed but like to shoot left handed bows with a thumb ring or using the slavic/buhtanese draw.

[@ryddragyn]

Personally I'm not a fan of that method. It gives horrific arrow flight by my standards. You can use the index finger to stabilize on a right handed bow just as effectively. Just topside pressure.

[@5tonyvvvv]

what woods were these bows from in ancient times in the middle east??? There was no Hickory, locust and osage over there

[@ryddragyn]

www.britishmuseum.org/pdf/BMTRB%202%20Cartwright%20and%20Taylor.pdf Data on Egyptian bows.

[@5tonyvvvv]

Ive never seen carob, tamarisk, Christ thorn or acacia bows, have you?? And how good of a wood are they??

[@ryddragyn]

I have not, but then again I do not live in the Middle East.

[@fire_lord862]

You've got a new subscriber

[@aasishnechalee4121]

Only with compound bow as with traditional bow we can’t hold long like in compound bows

[@adam-k]

Slavic (and other eastern European) people were exposed to Asiatic bows hundreds if not thousands of years before Islam. The Scythian and Samaritans used such bows on the Eastern European steppes at least since 1000 BC

[@ryddragyn]

Exposure and adoption are different things, as evidenced by the Roman texts discussing the Slavs' use of wooden bows, plus their origins in the Baltic region.

[@adam-k]

​@@ryddragyn In Roman time the Slavic people located over the area from the Vistula to the Dnyeper region. In the close neighborhood of the Scythian and Samaritans. In the 7th century Slavic people formed alliance with the Bulgar Turks and created Greater Bulgaria. In the same time they coexisted and mix with the Pannonian Avars. Again in the same time they coexist with the Khazars. Many names among the Hungarian tribes in the 9th century are Slavic origin. All these people Scythians Sarmatians, Avars, Khazars, Bulgars, Hungarians were famous of using Asiatic bows. (BTW in the 14th century Hungarian mercenaries used Asiatic bows with Slavic release. Or rather the Italian author described them drawing the bow with three fingers or something)

[@ryddragyn]

3 finger release could mean just a standard "Mediterranean" release, common all over the world. Also, I made an addendum to this video where I point out that the first author to refer to the "Saqalibah" draw explicitly said that it was three fingers. Which would neatly parallel with what is seen in modern Bhutan: draw with three, release index at full draw to avoid pinch.

[@andrewodonnghaile2353]

Just curious, from what manuscript is the image you include with the two horse archers shooting at the qabaq (gourd)?

[@ryddragyn]

I think it’s from Kitab al-makhzun li arbab al-funun… Or from a different, similar text of around the same time. The archive link I got the image series from is now dead, unfortunately. p.p1 {margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 10.0px Verdana; -webkit-text-stroke: #000000} p.p2 {margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 14.0px 'Helvetica Neue'; color: #0b68b4; -webkit-text-stroke: #0b68b4; min-height: 16.0px} p.p3 {margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 14.0px 'Helvetica Neue'; color: #0b68b4; -webkit-text-stroke: #0b68b4} span.s1 {font: 12.0px Helvetica; -webkit-text-stroke: 0px #000000} span.s2 {font-kerning: none} span.s3 {text-decoration: underline ; font-kerning: none}

[@zoki.to974]

its few years latter but there is one, maybe two things to add to your explanation. arrow rest is on the "wrong" side of the bow, right instead of left when utilize slavic release. point finger hold/push arrow to the left on the bow, with middle and ring finger pull the string. side note, those maps you show with slavic people, it excluded celtics, dacians, tracians from their cousins and that is mistake pushed up to this day. that has to be corrected and many things will be more clear.

[@ryddragyn]

The idea that the arrow was on the right side with this release is a modern interpretation, as there is actually no evidence in the historical treatises to support this. There are also technical complications/problems associated with that method, especially with higher draw weights. The objective approach is to reserve judgment and not declare something historical without evidence.

[@zoki.to974]

@@ryddragyn will you give me example of problems you have with slavic release on higher draw weight bows, and what is higher draw weight in your example? btw, slavic release only has sense if arrow is on the right side, all other release has more sense on the left side than that one. btw, you can get so many examples of arrows on the right side from old pictures and frescoes not necessary depicting slavic release but again, very close...

[@ryddragyn]

The Slavic release actually works very well on the left side - if you watch this video more carefully you will notice that the Bhutanese all shoot on the left side of the bow. The index finger is merely extended, not pushing into the arrow. The original treatise does not specify that the index finger pushes the arrow, merely extends. There are also examples of tribal peoples (Amazonians, Mentawai) who shoot with a similar draw hand position on the left side. Artwork is inherently unreliable evidence. Full of conventions, obvious mistakes, surrealism. We have to treat it with caution. It wasn't made to instruct, like the treatises. And the artists weren't necessarily archers. Higher weight is 90+ pounds, but the problems are evident at any weight. The arrow flight and accuracy with the modern slavic interpretation are problematic compared to thumb draw or standard Mediterranean. That's because the nock end of the arrow is launched in the direction of the handle,m. Obviously one can try to correct this with handle torque, but that is increasingly difficult and painful at higher weight, and even advocates of the modern slavic style will admit this. It is simply a flawed way of shooting, but it is nonetheless popular among people shooting kid's bows who value speed shooting over power, accuracy, and grace.

[@scandinavianarcher7015]

@@ryddragyn I think you are makimg conclusions on a false basis here. It would make so much sense for at rider to use the Slavic draw in kombination kathra, to be able to shoot while riding. Just as we see with thumb draw. In my opinion, much more so, than to spare the index finger from pain. It is also in my opinion a flawed perception, that medieval bows were higher poundage. This would possibly be true for standing soldier, but not for horseback archers, where the bow was actually a close combat weapon. Unfortunately, you seemingly skipped this part in your video.

[@gushlergushler]

@@scandinavianarcher7015 Coming back to this a long while after the fact; medieval bows both in central europe aswell as in countries with horseback culture have high drawweights. Adam Karpowicz, one of the most well known composite bow makers talks about it in his book, he mentions that most Ottoman Bows were well above 100 pounds at their respective drawlength.

[@muhammadhidayat4253]

In the early islamic era most arabian use wooden bow then there is order to use Persian bow but arabian wooden bow and their fingers draw not forbidden.

[@CrawlingAxle]

sorry, what is the source that Mamluks used a two-fingers-under draw? I'm not arguing, just curious. I couldn't find any definitive source online, and also, weren't they Turkic people and therefore likely to use Central Asian thumb ring style?

[@ryddragyn]

AnCap Chossid It's a Mamluk text that first mentioned that "Saqalibah" used a kind of two fingers under. The Saqalibah being either Slavic peoples in their homeland, or Eastern European slave soldiers in the Middle East. There's no suggestion that Turkic peoples (such as the Mamluks) used such a draw themselves.

[@kenyonegbert1125]

Incredible video but much too quiet.

[@HunterXenios]

Who is the guy in the old picture of using 3 under

[@ryddragyn]

Art Young

[@letssee8397]

This is also the "Native American Draw"

[@ryddragyn]

That's an overgeneralization. Some forms of the native tertiary draw superficially resemble this draw, in that the index finger is extended, but differ in that they are an augmented pinch draw, incorporating use of the thumb. Whereas the slavic draw is said to not use the thumb at all.

[@rigeus]

interesting, the sources are intriguing, nice research! Once, I could not use my index finger properly because of inflammation. I end up taking a break from shooting. It feels so weak. The index finger is the stronger finger, with many modern archers aiming to load it with 50% of the bow weight. I'm sure people can learn to draw without the index finger, but it's ... not easy. I'm not convinced about the validity of using the compound comparison. The compound has a let-off, meaning an archer can draw with three fingers, and as soon as the let-off kicks in he only has to hold for as little as 20% of the max draw weight. He can take the (stronger) index finger away, at the end. But without the let-off ... no evolution path. Regardless of the strength of the draw, another evolution path could exist if we think about what would happen if somebody will try to use a classic split-finger release with an arrow on the right side of the bow. The index finger may be there to keep the arrow pressed against the bow. So maybe is just a weird mix of thumb and Mediterranean release which was not very strong and got replaced as bows got stronger.

[@ryddragyn]

I honestly find putting more weight on the other fingers easier due to how they are more centrally aligned with the bones of the forearm. I wouldn't consider index-less shooting a challenge. One isn't necessarily holding full draw for a long time, unlike with a compound, so the comparison is still valid. I first noticed the usefulness of loosening the index finger with a rather short 60# Korean bow. Also, there is a followup to this video that looks at the original source's wording more closely. Also worth noting that none of the sources discuss pressing against the arrow. Nor what side of the bow to put the arrow. And that using it on the opposite side creates additional technical problems to be solved that get more severe as the draw weight increases.

[@ryddragyn]

Just as an example: I just pulled on my 92# bow with the ring and middle fingers. No issues, even though I normally do shoot with 3. Two finger split was a little more awkward due to the angles. So I suspect anyone who struggles to shoot without the index has some other issue going on. The fingers are supposed to be relaxed. I also think we should keep in mind that the primary sources may have never actually seen this draw in person, so their knowledge of the details may be a bit fuzzy. There are variants of the tertiary draw that are visibly quite reminiscent of the text's description, but you'd have to get very up close and personal to be able to see the pinch origin-sire-media.fichub.com/generic/clip-main/147862.400x225.jpg

[@rigeus]

@@ryddragyn hmm, I guess we are all different. I still believe that using the index finger is creating better control, but is more a matter of opinion. 92# is almost double then what I shoot :-) you got me here. I'll watch your other video on the subject.