Latter-day Saints Get This WRONG about Agency & Satan's Plan? w/Hayden Carroll

[@donnacrimmins789]

I grew up Catholic. Even as a small child I had so many questions from things that didn't make sense. The Gospel is so Logical. When I heard the Gospel it made me so happy to hear and know the truth. The Holy Spirit confirmed the truth.

[@danielthompson6631]

This is wonderful to hear for you Donna!! We welcome all Faith's to hear of what we have to share in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Sharing the full plan and knowledge as revealed through God's modern Prophets and Scriptures delights us! ❤ The light and reassurance we have as revealed through the Book of Mormon, Pear of Great Price, and Doctorine and Covenants is so precious and compliment The Bible and fills in all the gaps. ❤

[@denisekyle6603]

Same with me Donna ! 38 years ago I joined the LDS Church!

[@peterthorup2080]

I love to see people making videos and posts about this topic. It is one of my favorite topics to study. You guys make the great point that the common idea of Satan "Forcing" us to be righteous is likely not correct. However, I think you guys are not very straightforward on how "Agency" is broken down. Also, it may be helpful to make a distinction between simple "Agency" vs. "Moral Agency". "Agency" on it's own is composed of: 1. Power (A capability to do something) 2. Knowledge (A comprehension of the choices available to you) 3. Opposition (Having multiple options available. - Also, the level of "enticement" matters.) With the presence of those 3 principles (to varying degrees), you have "Agency", meaning you have an ability to make choices. If you entirely remove one of these, then you don't have "Agency". But as long as you have each to some degree, then you have "Agency" Last of all, we can turn "Agency" into "Moral Agency" by adding the principle of: 4. Law (Authoritative commandment from God) If you remove Law, then you do not have "Moral Agency". Without Law, your choices cannot have meaning or purpose. You literally have no ability to choose what is RIGHT over what is WRONG. Without law, there is no right or wrong even established. You can't be punished if there is no law. EVERYONE would have returned to God. However, there would not have been "PROGRESSION" which would have defeated the whole purpose to God's plan. There can't be progression without a law to divide one state from another. When the scriptures say that Satan sought to destroy Agency, it is really speaking of what I am calling "Moral Agency" here. Satan's plan would not have needed to remove any of the first 3 principles. All he would have needed or wanted to do was to remove any "ACCOUNTABILITY". Accountability does not exist without the 4th principle, Law. All Satan had to do was to remove Law. In other words, just don't have God get involved. And here is a great scripture that encapsulates the whole idea: 2 Nephi 2: 26, 27 26 And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given. 27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself. … knowing good from evil… (Knowledge) …to ACT for themselves… (Power) …free to choose liberty…or to choose captivity… (Opposition) … save it be by the punishment of the law… (Law)

[@cranzag]

21:00 From talking to mainstream christians, their *theology* says they would go to hell, but the *people* just say that they rely on God's mercy and hope that they won't go to hell *in spite* of their theology. It's basically 1 Nephi11:17, but what makes our theology better is that we don't have to go against it in order to maintain God's mercy. We also don't have to appeal to mystery

[@cranzag]

32:35 The way I describe it is an adult purposely breaking a vase versus a baby purposely breaking a vase. In both scenarios, the vase breaks, but the adult is going to be held accountable whereas the baby is not.

[@rolandsmith4394]

Exaltation is in a very real sense is binary. You either answer "yes", or you don't, at the alter in the sealing room. But then it becomes a lifetime of integrity in doing what you committed to do. That is, essentially, cleaving to whom you said you would cleave to.

[@grantwillis2029]

My personal theory on what happened is that Satan's plan was to remove conseqence for action or as one commenter said....what law? His argument wasn't choose me or else... it was choose whatever you want, live your best life and don't worry about it, I got you. No piper will ever come calling for you. I have my theories on how he thought he could accomplish that.

[@rolandsmith4394]

I forget the heavy in the BOM who said "there is no law", you are justified by whatsoever feels good. Sorry no reference.

[@grantwillis2029]

@@rolandsmith4394 Sounds like something Sherem would say, the antiChrist who faced off against Jacob, but don't quote me... could also be Nehor or Korihor

[@grantwillis2029]

@@rolandsmith4394 I just checked, it was Nehor

[@entelechy00]

To me, Satan wanted to remove agency by removing the ability to comprehend / think. If you can't think, you can't fall. More than that, his actual contention was that pain would make all fall, so the Father's plan would fail, so his plan, even now, is to cause pain until all fail and fall, and therefore all have to admit Satan was right, all follow him, and he becomes God because all follow him.

[@grantwillis2029]

@@entelechy00 that is an interesting view point. Definitely sinister enough.

[@Hol0gr4m]

I'm glad to see Hayden on this platform more and more recently. I hope for the day that he is able to flood KZbin with content to the same extent as Ward Radio or Thoughtful Faith.

[@rolandsmith4394]

The War That Began in Heaven rages on in our communities, our churches and even in our temples. "What law?"

[@entelechy00]

My view of the three kingdoms divided is how do you usually handle pain: Telestial Kingdom people handle pain by filling the moment with titillation (think Valhalla). Terestial Kingdom people prefer to not get invested (think Nirvana). Celestial Kingdom people will embrace pain for the sake of love. Outer Darkness is for those that think pain will cause all to fall, so we should follow Satan, who promised to remove our ability to think, so we can't comprehend pain.

[@jorivera9928]

When can we expect part two? Discussing how Satan tries to destroy our agency.

[@ByWayofCommandment]

Part two will be out tomorrow (Thursday)!

[@lw1959]

Enjoyed your video! Thank you!

[@mrmod123]

I’ve been on the exact same wavelength for quite awhile!!! Don’t know why the force narrative has been out there for so long. I first heard about Greg Wrights book from a Connor Boyack post. It just makes perfect sense and there really isn’t anywhere in the scriptures that back up the force narrative but the sinning with no consequences is everywhere. Nehor is the perfect example. Love your other scriptural references as well. I gave a talk on this once and I used an example of the Nehor mindset of today of who God is by talking about the God of Spinoza. This is exactly what Satan would say and many believe!! When Einstein gave lectures at U.S. universities, the recurring question that students asked him most was: - Do you believe in God? And he always answered: - I believe in the God of Spinoza. Baruch de Spinoza was a Dutch philosopher considered one of the great rationalists of 17th century philosophy, along with Descartes. (Spinoza) : God would say: Stop praying. What I want you to do is go out into the world and enjoy your life. I want you to sing, have fun and enjoy everything I've made for you. Stop going into those dark, cold temples that you built yourself and saying they are my house. My house is in the mountains, in the woods, rivers, lakes, beaches. That's where I live and there I express my love for you. Stop blaming me for your miserable life; I never told you there was anything wrong with you or that you were a sinner, or that your sexuality was a bad thing. Sex is a gift I have given you and with which you can express your love, your ecstasy, your joy. So don't blame me for everything they made you believe. Stop reading alleged sacred scriptures that have nothing to do with me. If you can't read me in a sunrise, in a landscape, in the look of your friends, in your son's eyes... ➤ you will find me in no book! Stop asking me "will you tell me how to do my job?" Stop being so scared of me. I do not judge you or criticize you, nor get angry, or bothered. I am pure love. Stop asking for forgiveness, there's nothing to forgive. If I made you... I filled you with passions, limitations, pleasures, feelings, needs, inconsistencies... free will. How can I blame you if you respond to something I put in you? How can I punish you for being the way you are, if I'm the one who made you? Do you think I could create a place to burn all my children who behave badly for the rest of eternity? What kind of god would do that? Respect your peers and don't do what you don't want for yourself. All I ask is that you pay attention in your life, that alertness is your guide. My beloved, this life is not a test, not a step on the way, not a rehearsal, nor a prelude to paradise. This life is the only thing here and now and it is all you need. I have set you absolutely free, no prizes or punishments, no sins or virtues, no one carries a marker, no one keeps a record. You are absolutely free to create in your life. Heaven or hell. ➤ I can't tell you if there's anything after this life but I can give you a tip. Live as if there is not. As if this is your only chance to enjoy, to love, to exist. So, if there's nothing after, then you will have enjoyed the opportunity I gave you. And if there is, rest assured that I won't ask if you behaved right or wrong, I'll ask. Did you like it? Did you have fun? What did you enjoy the most? What did you learn?... Stop believing in me; believing is assuming, guessing, imagining. I don't want you to believe in me, I want you to believe in you. I want you to feel me in you when you kiss your beloved, when you tuck in your little girl, when you caress your dog, when you bathe in the sea. Stop praising me, what kind of egomaniac God do you think I am? I'm bored being praised. I'm tired of being thanked. Feeling grateful? Prove it by taking care of yourself, your health, your relationships, the world. Express your joy! That's the way to praise me. Stop complicating things and repeating as a parakeet what you've been taught about me. What do you need more miracles for? So many explanations? The only thing for sure is that you are here, that you are alive, that this world is full of wonders. Nehor’ism all the way. Anyway Thanks so much for this episode!!! Loved it!! I’m gonna share it with as many as I can.

[@jawnatutorow]

The god of Spinoza is definitely not the Hebrew God of the Bible. And if you're ok with that so be it. But I felt I should say that you are following a different God. The God of the Bible is not all loving, He is a just God and there will be judgement. But, those who do not move on into the next world will not be burning for eternity, that is a man made doctrine to cause fear in us. They will be burned up in the lake of fire and cease from existing, because He is a loving and just God... He will let everyone choose their path but its God that chooses the consequences. He has told us beforehand what they are.... I pray that everyone will actually read the Bible for what it says and trust in the God of the Bible, because He is good. And the only God. May YHWH bless you.

[@Quagthistle]

@4:23 - Well, it's not exactly that many won't "come back". It's that kingdoms are prepared for those who do not wish to live by higher laws so they can live according to lower laws they prefer. True it is that blessings are based on living in accordance with the law upon which that blessing is predicated, but to force people to live by higher laws against their will would be ungodly. Choice and consent are integral to growth and exaltation. No one can be exalted without their permission. Sure, some are saved from death against their will, but exaltation is a higher bar and requires the active consent of the one being exalted. @6:36 - Satan was presenting an alternate to the Father's Plan of salvation through agency (hence why he claimed the glory). He wanted to save everyone. That is not possible because not everyone wishes to live by the law upon which salvation (i.e. exaltation) is predicated. I'll give a schoolroom example. Say you have 2 students: Rick and Billy. Billy is studious and does well, but Rick hates school and doesn't try. He disrupts class, causes trouble, and rips up his tests. He tells everyone that studying is dumb and playing is more fun and tests don't matter. Then, the end of the school year comes around, and Billy and those who studied like he did move on to the next grade, but Rick and those who did as he did are held back. It's not because the teacher or the school admin hate Rick. It's because he didn't do the work needed to advance, and, worse, he brought others down with him. Passing him to the next grade would be more cruel, since he never learned the lessons of his current grade and would, therefore, be utterly lost in the next higher grade. Now, let's assume that Rick reforms his ways and applies himself the second time through and passes the following year. He will advance to the same grade Billy advanced to the previous year, however, he won't catch up to Billy because Billy is now moving on to the next grade above that, having once again applied himself in his education. That is God's Plan of Salvation in a nutshell. Satan's Plan, on the other hand, was effectively "No Child Left Behind" in all of it's misery. The students would be forced to advance and robbed of the consequences of their choices. (At the same time, they'd also be robbed of the growth and lessons learned through their mistakes, but that seems not to matter much to those who espouse this plan.) Then all would receive the same glory in the end, however, such result comes at the expense of forcing those ready to grow at a faster pace to slow down their growth while those who can't keep up are dragged along. Without the chance to fail, success is meaningless. Without success, there is no growth. Without growth, there is no path to grow closer to our Father in Heaven. In short, without agency, there is no path to godliness, no exaltation, and, frankly, no hope. Jesus never promised the path would be easy. He showed us the way and assured us he would be "an high priest of good things to come". (And he rightly assigned the glory to the Father because he was volunteering to follow the Father's Plan, not his own.) @14:19 - Agency is basically the young women's value "Choice and Accountability". It is the ability to make choices and face the consequences of those choices. It may be true that Satan's Plan doesn't directly destroy freedom, but it does so in a round-a-bout way. If you remove the capability for sin, in order to remove culpability for sin, you also remove choice with it's corollary: accountability. @21:43 - (wince) Eskimos live in the arctic. No native peoples live in Antarctica (unless you count penguins or weddell seals). @25:12 - One of the big problems with creedal Christianity is it's inability to comprehend the word "covenant" and it's connection to law and accountability. Those who go a step further with their misunderstanding of predestination that makes God an unjust respecter of persons, they do so out of an inability to understand what a covenant truly is. As for the 'ex nihilo' crowd, their lack of understanding and stubborn insistence on a very narrow view of eternity robs them of a view of the true glory of creation and how creation works. In a way, this is exactly the topic of conversation. Their unwillingness to accept natural law (perhaps best exemplified by the "Sound of Music" song "Something Good", which states quite clearly "Nothing comes from nothing. Nothing ever could.") is exactly what keeps them from understanding the principal they need to grow. @28:41 - I suspect that there is an even deeper concept in the principals of creation and God and law, namely that a big part of what makes God a "god" is His knowledge and mastery of law, as well as His ability to persuade native matter to follow His will. But, to one who simply ascribes all credit and blame to the Father and sits backs to await their predestined fate, that understanding is sadly beyond their comprehension. @45:55 - No, the campaign is "I will remove the CONSEQUENCES", not "I will remove the freedom to choose". Still, without consequences, there is no choice and no growth. That said, I understand why people in society today are fighting against consequences (because they feel the meeting out of those consequences are unjust and more harshly punish the poor for crimes the rich get off of easily or accused/convicted of crimes they did not commit, largely due to our legal system becoming a cesspool of profiteering and hence corruption). Furthermore, even when our legal system imposes consequences, no concern is given to making things right for the victim(s), which is an essential element of justice. @48:38 - I have often used a similar analogy for Satan's Plan. Continuing my classroom analogy from earlier, Satan's Plan is to, essentially change the tests to read something like this: "What is the capital of Texas? A) Austin B) Austin C) Austin D) Austin". Any answer is correct, and this is what I like to call the "fake illusion of choice". No matter what choice you make, it is meaningless. There are no wrong answers and everyone gets it right and gets the prize, regardless of effort or merit. Nothing is learned or gained by the test. In short, life under such a plan would be a flat, empty, hollow existence that could never lead to exaltation or glory, which glory is intelligence itself. @1:04:18 - The protestants can never understand the doctrine of grace and works, or the concept of exaltation "worlds without end", because they don't truly understand what a covenant is. They think it's just a blessing from God. They don't understand it's a mutual promise from both sides. Without that understanding, they can't really understand the atonement, either. It is probably the single most important "plain and precious truth" removed from their understanding of the Bible early in the Great Apostasy. Think of it this way, their understanding of the atonement is like a toddler hoping their big brother will give them a cookie without any knowledge of what is required to make the cookies they want to eat. Covenants make the proverbial cookies of eternity. We are saved neither by works nor grace alone, but by both, as seen in the NT scripture "Faith without works is dead, it being alone".

[@Eluzian86]

We aren't raised from the dead against our will. Receiving a physical body is a result/consequence/ reward of keeping our First Estate in the Pre-Mortal Existence. Therefore, when we are resurrected, it is simply the restoration of what we had already earned by the use of our agency, what we already desired. There is no force against agency involved.

[@cedricfarquharson5842]

very interesting. Could I just point out that the person talking in Moses 4 is actually Jesus Christ. I know it looks for all the world like it is Heavenly Father but it is not. Jesus is talking for the Father as they are one in purpose. This sounds very odd when you read verses such as "by my only begotten" but nevertheless it is Jesus speaking. I don't expect anyone to take my word for it so look up "The First Presidency Doctrinal Exposition" of 1916 where it is all explained and clarified.

[@Rudyard_Stripling]

I recently found this online and it makes perfect sense to me. Joyce Mitchell makes a good point about the requirements of entering into Heaven. Those that would enter into Heaven must by choice behave heavenly and not be unclean. I think the way to address this is to understand where political power comes from. It comes from the honor given to a leader from those that follow. Essentially Satan sought to redefine what Heaven was by setting himself up as a God (the one who has all power) with gaining the support of all that would ever sin or be corruptable (all mankind and uncelestialzed things.) He sought to win over the glory(honor) that intelligence gives to God the Father and redirect it all to himself as the new definition of God, knowing that we would all fit into the category of fallen. Satan operates the same way today by getting individuals and nations to choose crippling dept so that there is no choice but to honor our debtors. That’s why he encourages bad and enslaving choices. God the Father’s Heaven is one in which all may receive of his power and glory. Satan’s Heaven would have been one in which he has all the glory and power because we would all feel indebted to him. God does not want us to feel debt. He wants us to experience redemption, salvation, liberty, and the perpetuation of priesthood power.

[@raintech8553]

awesome.. I want the digital copy please if possible.. Thanks

[@ByWayofCommandment]

Contact [e-mail] for the digital copy! 👍

[@Rudyard_Stripling]

I have a theory about what might have happened in the choosing sides of the war in heaven, Satan went around and told other people that he had seen the future and they did not make it back to heaven and the only way they could make it back was to choose him and he would bring them back to heaven.

[@stephtimms1776]

Yes, and that we wouldn't lose anyone. The key red flag was that he was pushing the idea he knew better than God.

[@Rudyard_Stripling]

@@stephtimms1776 And what Satan did not comprehend is that once you get that attitude and act on it, you can not become a God as the Savior did, the law of existence as a God does not allow that to happen.

[@stephtimms1776]

@@Rudyard_Stripling Oh, I see what you mean. Yes, the greatest sin is that kind of pride. The difference between Jesus and Satan is Jesus bends his will and gives the glory to God the Father.

[@Rudyard_Stripling]

@@stephtimms1776 Exactly.

[@mrmod123]

How do we get greg wrights free digital book again?

[@ByWayofCommandment]

Email Hayden at [e-mail] 👍

[@Lightseeker333]

I would love a digital copy of that book. Please post the email to get a copy. Thanks!

[@ByWayofCommandment]

[e-mail]

[@Rudyard_Stripling]

Thanks for reminding me to ask for one also!!

[@novawarren5089]

There are a small group of people who really don't believe that no heaven,not he'll. They are calling themselves Wiccan or Pagan Told that they were before Christianity or They can't even think of Heavenly Father having creative plans long ago and even now still. Some don't curse, others curse like Northern Troopers! All believe in past lives,seeing dead people or spirits Their own words. I learn this from overseas people and people here and personal family member who left church and become a student and drawing even her children in to this... I feel sad about this information and a need to share the information with leaders that we need to provide protection for upcoming youths and grown children... That's correct grown child has done this... Believe that if they continue with doing good things they will not be punish by any thing... I don't want to know more. Most wear white clothes and hats,some wear black ones, you really don't know All are Witches and condiment from the land of Isreal long time ago... Enjoy your insights and video Some people never have heard about Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father or the Plan of Salvation. They are like warped Never want to have Missionaries come Even have Christianity on property... True Wiccan wear white or cream,and use no blood No curse words and do good always I'm so greatful for not all my children are wrapped in confusion. I moved in with my daughter and she does many things for me and doesn't want me to do anything much. I have to ask to do the dishes and stuff to help clean certain things that I can. I see she needs her children to step up and if you see something need doing Do It... Teens are so different from when I was in my teens in 1970s And I had hrs.of freedom! Yet lots of things to do daily and if I saw something that needed picked up or fixed,I did it. It was called respect and love ❤️ Again thank you both 32:29

[@hide181chef17]

Can somebody provide the exact email address of Hayden Carroll to receive a copy of the book mentioned at the start of the video? Thanks!

[@ByWayofCommandment]

[e-mail]

[@grayman7208]

21:40 if you were an eskimo living in antarctica, you would be lost. because eskimos live in the arctic. ) just sayin' )

[@adamshaffer1232]

Your assumptions are leading from one outrageous conclusion to another. Satan's plan was comprised of preventing sin through force, and foisting upon each one of us any sins that could not be prevented-- this is called blood atonement in the Brighamite tradition.