Are You Stronger Than The Average Climber?

[@LatticeTraining]

This is just one of the measures we test in our remote assessment packages (link in description). Soon we are also going to take a look at finger strength! We know data can be a hot topic so remember that although the data might not be what you expect, it must not be taken out of context. For example in the higher V-grades we may not be as concerned about muscular endurance (high reps) and more interested in levels of maximum strength, we test that too. An assessment is only as useful as its interpretation.

[@arche797]

Important comment! Would have wished for it in the video. I feel the causal relationship between max bodyweight Pull-ups and V-grades is a least debatable in terms of it scientific approach.

[@TestUserPlsIgnore]

I can't do 12 pull-ups for sure, but I can certainly climb V4. So F for all the time people waste doing pull-ups :D I bet they are the same dudes cutting loose on every single move on the moonboard. :P

[@saulsarry]

Hi Lattice 👋 when you talk about a V4/7/11 climber, are you talking about maximum redpoint or having some level of consistency/experience at that level?

[@alfonsmoller3291]

What would be also interesting is how these numbers correlate with body size and weight. So e.g. the taller v7 climber is more on the lower max pull up number etc.

[@davidbecker54]

So so important to re-state this. I wouldn't be surprised to find most high level boulderers (above V10) start flattening out in terms of # of consecutive pull-ups they can do and their 1-rep max pullup to be the one increasing at a more steady rate. I also wouldn't be surprised to find that as people progress into harder grades, they become more technical climbers and need less pure strength to do so. Would be curious to compare V10/V11 climbers with V13/14 climbers in these areas.

[@pyre753]

went from "yay strong for my grade" to "hold on doesn't that just mean that i'm bad" real quick

[@pierrotmoon1]

The opposite for me I went from "wait I'm so weak" to "Hey my technique might be better than I thought" haha

[@tibogoub6805]

Exactly me... We suck ! Haha

[@tibogoub6805]

I can probably do 'my grade' number of pull ups with an extra 10kg

[@sirlockoff]

I think the data is a bit skewed towards the people who lattice attracts in the first place, I find it pretty hard to believe 7A+ avg pullup count is between 16-17, I think if you re-ran this test with just randomly picking like 15 people in the gym you would get quite the different results

[@moonti6820]

My thoughts exactly.

[@smithy1557]

I agree, I can do around 6b+/6c and can do 17 pull ups

[@DarioPicaTips]

There are other skills involved and not only pulling strength

[@maximiliankuhleitner9139]

@@smithy1557 I climb 7b+ and can do 7. Pretty interesting how different our bodies work!

[@buchnejf]

I agree. Love the video. But this data would have been much more interesting if it wasn’t from people who signed up for Latice. Or at least the question should have been, how many pull ups do you think the average latice climber can you at different grades.

[@williamalexander9002]

as a V4 climber with a max of MAYBE 4 pullups, I'm both (1) surprised, and (2) happy to learn that strength might be a comparative weakness of mine. great vid as always!

[@th3l05t-f1z]

same I am also a V4 climber and I can only do 3 maybe 4 on a very good day

[@MrWill830]

That's very interesting, I'm the opposite of you ! My gym only has "range grades" but I'm no higher than v4-v5, yet my PB is 16 pull-ups and I can (probably) do 12 on any given day. Looks like I should assess my other weaknesses ...

[@williamalexander9002]

@@MrWill830 i'm sure part of it is body type too, because i'm fairly tall and therefore comparatively heavy but i can make use of the lank factor. nice job on all your strength!

[@MrWill830]

@@williamalexander9002 Oh definitely, a myriad of factors come into play. I'm tall as well, but very lightweight for my height, one or two kilograms above "the last healthy weight" for my height according to my country's standards. Thanks for the compliment, I'm sure you've got much better technique than me though !

[@MyMusicSosa]

@@MrWill830i actually wonder if this is even relevant for indoors, I can climb v4 indoors but last time I was at the crag I couldn’t even touch a v4 roof problem, like it would have easily been a v7 or higher at the gym. I don’t think I could touch a hard v2 outside even, I could do 4 or 5 pull-ups maybe

[@FelixBauwens]

Interesting to see that even though there is a huge difference in difficulty between V4 and V7 that which takes years of training to overcome, the difference between being able to do 12 or 16 pull ups is far less significant.

[@davidhelman3045]

I think this is an important point. I can do 20-30 pullups but I can only climb a V7, but if I haven't specifically been training pullups in a while and I can only do say 15, it would take me maybe 30-40 training days to get my pullups to like 25, whereas there is no possible way to train for 30 days to go from V4 to V7 or from V7 to V10 or something like that. Going up the climbing grades takes years of training + technique whereas pullups are just simple muscle building and muscle training. It is true that it takes some base level of time to but the muscle mass, but generally at a low-ish body weight, the muscles can be trained quite quickly to do more pullups faster that you could go in those climbing grades.

[@simold13]

@@davidhelman3045 That's really interesting. I wonder if it's an age thing. I'm 55 and find it really, really hard to increase my pullup numbers. Months of work to add just one or two reps. Climbing grade, on the other hand, is partly based on recovering muscle memory so a few weeks in the gym will see me ticking through the grades. Grades one has never previously reached are largely down to technique, which can be gained much more quickly than strength. People often underestimate the importance of technique for progression.

[@biomorphic]

@@simold13 47 years old here, completely inactive for the last 3 years (and very inactive in the last 6 due to injuries and laziness). Started climbing again one month and half ago. I climb V4 and very few V5 problems. I flashed a 6b+/c route, auto belay. I can do a max of 6 pull-ups and when I started I could barely do 2, one month and half ago. I noticed I need more time to recover between sessions, and I am not getting strong as expected. I used to do at least 15 pull-ups in my 30, and I could do 3 with one arm only, holding the arm I was pulling with the other hand. So I would say dirty one arm pull-ups. Now I can barely hold my weight for a few second with one arm, but I can't pull. Even though I think in the last 2 months I climbed at my best, because I really focused on technique and problem solving, and I think my fingers have never been so strong. Consistency is paying off. Of course I climbed in the past, so this surely helped to quickly climb V4 boulders. Right now my major weakness is explosive power on dynamic movements. I climb with a few guys who are way stronger than me, and they do much better on overhang, when instead I can do slabs they can't do.

[@Jaredvic]

I’m a v3-v4 climber and I just did 18 pull-ups. I find my biggest weakness is my fore arm endurance, finger strength, and technique. You probably can’t quantify technique, but I’d love to see other relevant aspects of climbing have their own videos.

[@ИванИванов-ц1я9ф]

I have similar experience, pull-up strength is not the most important for climbing. You can do ton of pull-ups but if you lack tehnique, flexibility or finger strength, no way to climb high grade.

[@sabajeroo]

I was going to point that out, i can easily do 7 pull ups and even 3 weighted (10kg) pull ups, but i just started climbing, technique is fundamental, probably in lot of ocassions more important that raw power, and also i noticed that dead hang time trial was more impactful in my climbing performance this first weeks of climbing.

[@taliapage6259]

My dear if you have 18 pull ups and are climbing v3, I might suggest that you consider if forearm strength is a weakness or if you are simply over gripping to fatigue while attempting to campus up the wall. Just a thought to consider!

[@soccutd77]

@@taliapage6259possibly, but in my experience the amount of pull-ups you do is not correlated to your finger strength at all. Believe it or not I can do 30 pull-ups but am still at v4 because my fingers are incredibly weak on small/bad holds. Boulder difficulty is defined by smaller/worse holds, not pulling strength and endurance!

[@Aaron-xq6hv]

@@soccutd77 I realize I'm half a year late, so maybe you can answer. But I have a feeling the issue is one of technique, not finger strength. Strong people often try and make up for a lack of technique with more strength, but obviously that doesn't always work. Also crimpy climbs are one thing, but there are lots of other V4 (and above) that are not just crimp ladders. Slopers, pinches, compression, dynamic movement etc. There are quite a lot of climbs that are hard moves to good holds.

[@sarahwardles1947]

When I was a v4 climber I could probably do maybe 1 pullup. Now I climb v6 and can do 3ish. The data is very interesting haha

[@LatticeTraining]

Absolutely! Though less common in our data this is totally normal. Climbing is a fantastic sport because there are so many was progress in our ability to climb harder! Upper body strength is just one factor of many.

[@niklasstahl98]

V4/7 in your gym or outdoors?

[@LatticeTraining]

@@niklasstahl98 Our data set is from across the world and generally people report their best outdoor grade. But some people might exclusively climb indoor, so they can report an indoor grade.

[@niklasstahl98]

@@LatticeTraining I meant this commenter, I'm sure I can trust your data. But thanks for the reply, cool video!

[@niklasstahl98]

@@LatticeTraining Just asking since a V4 at most gyms might as well be a V1 outdoors 😀

[@chasleichner5895]

I would love to see flexibility data for these grades as well since flexibility often opens up technique opportunities that reduce the strength required for a given climb.

[@Styl4x]

It's hard to put a number on flexibility tho. Like if you ask - can you do a side split you get a binary answer which doesn't tell you everything in between. You could ask - if you tried a split, what's the degree your legs are spread apart (from 0° to 180° being a full split) , but who knows the answer to such a question. You also need to decide what specific flexibility you even want to question people about. Alternatively to splits you could ask how high someone can put their feet on the wall, which is really important for climbing but, again, almost impossible to quantify.

[@mariamueller1946]

I think lattice essentially tests this angle. They do middle split (against a wall) width and height.

[@dunavanjanzen-morris5245]

Really interesting! Thanks for sharing lattice. Also would be interesting to control for the style of boulder. I imagine in general male climbers are self-selecting to do boulders that rely more on pull-up strength whereas females might be gravitating towards boulders that rely more on flexibility, technique, and crimp strength. So I wonder if the gap in max pulls ups would decrease if the "style" of V11, for example, was standardized. Just a thought that came to mind! Thanks again for the data.

[@RVSAU169]

This was really cool, would love to see more videos about average data such as this one!

[@jaimseygirl2594]

I'm a female climber breaking into the V7 range (I've done a grand total of two V7s haha), and my max pullups is 5. So the numbers were generally a little higher than I expected. I guessed the V11s though perfectly. Haha

[@MyMusicSosa]

What style do you favor?

[@jaimseygirl2594]

@@MyMusicSosa Slightly dynamic, decent holds and bigger moves. I’ve been improving my crimping as well. As a short climber, I struggle with big jump moves. Slab is also not my forte, but I’m working on it. 🤙

[@davidhelman3045]

I find the difference in men-women in pullup strength to be quite refreshing in climbing. I am also a V7 climber, just slowly breaking into V8 but I can do like 25 pullups. Here you can do 5 but we are both at the same level of climbing grade. It just goes to show that there are so many ways to get up a boulder and upper body strength is not really a great indicator. I think footwork and technique are vastly more important than simple pulling power when getting to the higher grades.

[@MyMusicSosa]

@@jaimseygirl2594 that’s really interesting to me, I’d thought with not so much pulling power maybe crimpy boulders or slab would be your preferred style, I guess technique plays a bigger role than I’d thought in larger or more dynamic moves. Thanks! Would you say you have good core or leg power compared to pull-up power?

[@jaimseygirl2594]

@@MyMusicSosa My lower body is definitely the most naturally strong for me, I build muscle in my legs very easily. I would say my core is quite average. A few months ago I started training a lot on the 45 degree overhang and that improved my core strength greatly! I think my greatest strengths though are route reading and never quitting, I always try for the next hold even if I’m pumped or think I might not make it. It’s amazing how often you do make it if you just try!

[@alexe3700]

Ive always had the idea of a system wall which has holds thath can measure how much force is being applied to them (both feet and hands). Would be super interesting to for instance be able to compare how much % of your body weight you can apply to a foot hold comparad to the best climbers in the world.

[@alexcouret]

That'd be so sick!! Being able to see the data between successful and failed attempts would be super interesting to help know what to focus on for next tries.

[@denlolify]

Either the V4's i know are all easier where i climb, or the data is biased, most people i know who can climb V4's can do 6 or less pullups

[@plastikmaiden]

Same here. Those must be some spicy V4s.

[@LatticeTraining]

I commented this above but I'll copy here because I think its relevant too...... I think the V4 is high because its not representing a 'requirement for the grade' but rather typical strength that climbers already have when they start climbing. A lot of people were surprised by V4, but when I asked what they could pull when they first started climbing i.e. V1 or V2, many would say 8+ pull-ups, in some case 15+. This is because many people find climbing later in life but have some experience training in a gym for example. The other big factor is, as a new climber, the pull-up is a very simple and obvious exercises. So if you are interested in training it's likely the first thing these climbers start doing in the gym. I think the psychosocial factors count for a lot in the data we collect. The interpretation is complex but important.

[@denlolify]

@@LatticeTraining ow wow thats interesting, never thought about people being strong before even starting climbing

[@LatticeTraining]

@@denlolify yeah. Similar story for me actually. You can imagine climbing is quite an appealing sport to try if you already have a good amount of upper body strength

[@Tan12]

I climb V4-5 and can do over 20 pullups and a 90 pound weighted pullup for 1 rep. Been strength training a lot longer than I've been climbing, and my upper body strength is way ahead of my finger strength and climbing skill. Consequently the V5s I can send tend to be ones with a steep slope and/or relatively big and powerful moves, but good holds, allowing me to really use my strength.

[@biomorphic]

On the contrary I can do only 6 pullups and I'm stronger on verticals and slabs where I have to do a couple of very hard move, requiring precision and fingers strength. I have seen people way stronger than me doing V5 I can't send, struggling on boulders I can do and they can't. What I miss is that explosive power you need for these long, dynamic movements. I do especially struggle on overhangs on the moonboard. But I am getting better, just one month and half ago I was able to pull only twice.

[@TheJackawock]

Unweighted pull ups are weird exercise. I can do 35 and I'm an 8a+/b (v12/13) max grade but I have no idea what that means tbh. Whilst clearly correlated, I expect the relationship to be pretty messy/complicated. I suck at one-arm pull ups though relative to others I know at my grade.

[@DutchBoulders]

Cool vid, curious for the finger strength data!

[@BuzzLiteBeer]

Really surprised at how high the pull up count is for V4 as this is considered a beginner grade and most casual climbers reach this grade without any strength training. I would expected most v4 guys to be getting 4-6 and girls getting 2-3 pull-ups.

[@LatticeTraining]

I commented this above but I'll copy here because I think its relevant too...... I think the V4 is high because its not representing a 'requirement for the grade' but rather typical strength that climbers already have when they start climbing. A lot of people were surprised by V4, but when I asked what they could pull when they first started climbing i.e. V1 or V2, many would say 8+ pull-ups, in some case 15+. This is because many people find climbing later in life but have some experience training in a gym for example. The other big factor is, as a new climber, the pull-up is a very simple and obvious exercises. So if you are interested in training it's likely the first thing these climbers start doing in the gym. I think the psychosocial factors count for a lot in the data we collect. The interpretation is complex but important.

[@niklasb6849]

​@@LatticeTraining If you say v4 is this outdoor/board grades or do people commit their gym grades? Because at v4 on the 40 deg moonboard or outside in an area with a few overhangs I am absolutely not wondering about these numbers.

[@KizzaDS]

I think seeing the max weight 1 or 2 rep for grades would be interesting, as well as max hangs, covered a little bit in the response to Emil's video but a stand alone would be nice

[@LatticeTraining]

We have filmed a max hang video, should be out relatively soon :)

[@sandervanschaik6528]

I’m a max V6 climber and just did 15 pull-ups. I have been training with lattice for a while so nicely confirming the data set 😊. I think it’s cool they share their data. All data collections are going to be flawed in some way. So this set is as good as any, probably better due to the size and variety.

[@xinsanedefeatx]

I think finger strength on a small edge is the best strength predictor of someone's climbing ability, as it's the most specific to the sport (if you're familiar with exercise science you know the importance of specificity in exercise selection) Most people don't realize how specific strength is and how important positional strength and strength endurance are. As someone with a lifting background, my top end pulling strength is leagues above most people at my climbing grade, but often my endurance is where I fall short. Either positionally I'll be weak (bad at pulling from true dead hang, as most people don't do truly strict dead hang pull ups) or I run out of gas before someone who I can do more pull ups than or do a heavier weighted pull up runs out of gas

[@KindaAmazing667]

Same. I've always said this. I come from a gymnastic/calisthenic background. 15s front lever. One armers. I physically can't pull hard on small edges because my fingers can't take the force my back can produce. Meanwhile I get outclimbed by people struggling to do 10 pull ups but have crazy strong fingers.

[@xinsanedefeatx]

@@KindaAmazing667 yeah it's a little ridiculous how much I can lean on my pulling strength to make up for my shoddy technique and lack of open hand strength (damned slopers!) I've only climbed up to V4, but I've easily campused lots of (probably soft) V3's. Meanwhile unless it has big holds and dynamic moves, I don't have a shot at any V5's at my gym My advice would be to avoid dynamic moves and overuse techniques while warming up. If you're strong at pulling its way too easy to abuse that strength on lower grades and you never actually develop your technique (definitely speaking from personal experience here lol)

[@La0bouchere]

True, I could do a weighted pullup with 145 lbs at 160 bw, and still got shut down on V4's when I started climbing. Pulling strength doesn't matter if you can't hold the hold's, so it's always bottlenecked by grip strength

[@amberblackford9999]

I was lowballing too! ...I think because I use more flexibility and technique and my strength is probably pretty low for my grade. Found this very interesting.

[@chaozzah]

My guesses before reveal: Female: 2, 5, 14 Male: 10, 16, 24 So a V4 male does the same amount of pull-ups as a V11 female, damn. While I do agree your data would skew towards people who train more. I climb with one woman regularly, around 6C+/7A top rope, and we tried it once. She could barely do two. I can do about 12 at 7A+/7B, which makes sense since I rarely boulder. It's really fun to see how she solves different sequences. Where I might pull and throw myself up, she can fold halfway and put a feet at shoulder level and still somehow get pressure off of it. Look forward to the finger strength one :)

[@AndiPrachner]

Nice series. Interesting you aren't seeing a linear relationship here. Also for repeated pull-ups we see pretty good linearity across the grades, with 6b: 11, 7a+: 16.5, 8a: 23.5 (males only; too little data for females for reasonable readout) Anyways, at least there seems to be no selection bias between people signing up with Lattice in comparison to people trying a free online test.

[@Whiteblooder]

I dont think you need do a single pull up for most of V4's. And I don't think any amount of pull ups will get you up most of V11's :D But it's cool to see where median amongst climbers is.

[@LatticeTraining]

I commented this above but I'll copy here because I think its relevant too...... I think the V4 is high because its not representing a 'requirement for the grade' but rather typical strength that climbers already have when they start climbing. A lot of people were surprised by V4, but when I asked what they could pull when they first started climbing i.e. V1 or V2, many would say 8+ pull-ups, in some case 15+. This is because many people find climbing later in life but have some experience training in a gym for example. The other big factor is, as a new climber, the pull-up is a very simple and obvious exercises. So if you are interested in training it's likely the first thing these climbers start doing in the gym. I think the psychosocial factors count for a lot in the data we collect. The interpretation is complex but important.

[@gumbytrash]

I can do 20 pull-ups and am pretty hard stuck at v5 / 11d, but obviously my finger strength and technique need a lot of work

[@sighcai]

@@LatticeTraining I’m the opposite. I did start climbing later in life (in my 30s) and have no prior gym experience whatsoever. I know a few people at my gym who are the same. We broke into the V4-V5 range without any pull up strength. So, yeah, with decent technique and body awareness, most V4s are definitely doable by someone who can’t do a pull up.

[@AlexeiDrummond]

Interesting. Have you tried multivariate regressions with other explanatory variables (like years of experience) to factor out lack of technique in new climbers et cetera?

[@matthewlueder2656]

Would be more interesting to see how much weight added for a set of 5 pull ups

[@sethroberts7922]

I love this video and the conversation it has generated. I'm a V4 climber and I can do 10 pull-ups. I would love to see the average numbers for different strength metrics. It would be interesting and it could help me direct my own fitness schedule.

[@camt1818]

Before I started climbing, I could do 20+. I was just really into training pullups at the time. That number fell off quickly once I stopped doing them so often. Now I'm a V5/V6 climber, probably at about 10 pullups, and can add 85lbs to my 1RM pullup (weigh 145lbs). I'm sure I could climb harder with where my strength numbers are, but I just don't climb enough to tap into it.

[@mechtar92]

Thanks! That's the topic I'm really interested in 👏

[@paulgennaro2001]

Love this video! I'm so happy you guys are demystifying the attributes needed for hard climbing.

[@joolsgrommers1466]

High selection bias to the sample though: People looking for training help, might have already tried training on their own (and pull ups are high on the DIY list.) People who climb hard but don't do strength assessments (with Lattice) might not do as many?

[@LatticeTraining]

Yes it's important to consider the selection bias when looking at data. We also work with a lot of older climbers that have full-time jobs, kids etc. and don't have the luxury of climbing several times a week or getting outside often, which is where most of the skill development happens. So strength training becomes an efficient avenue to progress their climbing and reduce injury risk when they get the opportunity to climb comes around.

[@SM-wr3jr]

Really interesting video, thank you

[@aidanjohnson7571]

Max effort I can do like 6-7 pullups and I have climbed V6 outdoors. I definitely need to lose some weight and work on my pulling strength haha

[@5tr4nge75]

I'd be interested in seeing the 1 rep max pull up strength as well. Because that absolutely plays a part as well.

[@stefslyfe]

I think that the test goes to show that most people’s perceptions of grade difficulty is skewed based on the ease at which some gyms set their grading. If you climb at a gym with very soft grading then you think that the grades are easier than they actually are in reality (outdoors or gym with stiff grading).

[@benwang1275]

I think it's more about your finger& forearm strengh than back&biceps, I can do 17 pull ups or 5 muscle up(with leg kicks). But I can only top around 50% of V5 and my finger joints are pain as hell, I live in Taiwan not sure about other places grading tho.

[@luismarcosvillarreal5468]

I love this concept, for anyone feeling overwhelmed by this, don´t worry, in the end this idea of strength isn´t even that direct of a meassurment of progress, I can barly hang 10 seconds in 40 mm, but I can climb some v8´s, lol

[@davesmith1588]

I'm V4-5 ish climber with just a handful of 6's and 7's under my belt (and I think they were probably a bit soft for the grade). I just literally got back from a 2 hour + bouldering session before watching this and I've just done 12 pull ups with tired arms. I might be able to do a couple more with fresh arms. I'm surprised at peoples low guesses. Not surprised by the actual results though. That's pretty much what i would have guessed

[@davesmith1588]

Every V7 I've ever done was on slab, so I guess they don't count in an upper body strength context

[@2fast4me9]

My all time pullups record is 34 and right now I climb hard on 7B to max 7C but my sweet spot grade is around 6C-7A. Im 1.79m with around 75-77kg.

[@andycowley7979]

Nice to see the NE representative with Ali and Sid...

[@briansundermann834]

My take on this, particularly for the V4 and V7 numbers (I'm nowhere near V11 so I'd feel silly commenting on it), is that a lot of people have way more pulling strength than is required. I wonder what capacities people are lacking in order to climb harder, but doing 11-12 pullups is way more strength required than V4 climbing!

[@falconbalcon632]

V7 climber, I can do 15 on a good day and my technique isn't the sharpest, yet i send v6 on my first try most the time. I top out at V8, and I am thinking maybe these numbers are a bit biased, would like to know who the performance data is based on and where.

[@Sam-oc6vd]

This is actually really interesting because if women can climb a v11 with almost half the strength then on average they haft to be a lot better at other stuff, such as technique and flexibility. Howether I don't think it comes down to technique, I think we probably underestimate the importance of flexibility.

[@biomorphic]

I think they have better fingers strength because they have smaller hands, with shorter fingers, and they are also more flexible.

[@zconradji]

Seems to be a surplus of pull-up strength for V4 but I guess it makes sense. It’s more straightforward to train pull ups than footwork, route reading or other more specialized climbing skills that let you do more with less

[@borisbolshoi7317]

So if you're lighter you can get away with less pullups? That's how I read the data. I thought v11 would be able do 30 strict pullups tbh.

[@rockstarjazzcat]

Interesting, although not sure about your sample set. The difference between 0 pull-ups and 1 pull-up is vast. Would like to see V0 to V4, and accounting for age and bmi.

[@jeremiahjahn]

Agree, would really like to see this with BMI mixed in. And honestly just average BMI per grade would be pretty fascinating, if it's not already out there.

[@LatticeTraining]

We don't do test below V4 so we don't have the data unfortunately. But if I were to guess, I don't think we'd see much difference between V0 and V4. The reason being is the V4 mean is already quite high. I think V4 is high because its not representing a 'requirement for the grade' but rather typical strength that climbers already have when they start climbing. A lot of people were surprised by V4, but when I asked what they could pull when they first started climbing i.e. V0 or V1, many would say 8+ pull-ups, in some case 15+. This is because many people find climbing later in life but have some experience training in a gym for example.

[@Шедуле]

Half year ago I did just 5 pull-ups and already climbed some V4. Today I do not care how much body weight pull-ups I can do. I focus on weighted pulls and can pull-up on time plus 60% of my body weight. I believe my level is V6 because I can flash the most of the V6 in the three different climbing gyms in my area. And about 40% V7. I think the biggest weakness for beginners are technique and finger strength. To climb V7 and V8 climber also need to focus on training “slopers” and “pinches”

[@themightyquinn1343]

As an overweight V3 climber that can do maybe 4 or 5 pull-ups in a row, I laughed when the first guy estimated zero for V4. Interesting how they almost all underestimated, whereas I had the tendency to overestimate some of the ranges.

[@biomorphic]

I do 6 pull ups and I climb most V4s, even some that people on my level don't, especially technical slabs with small crimps. I think I have decent fingers strength. I used to do 15 pull ups at least, and I could do 3 with almost one arm. I was putting the other end near the shoulder. But that was long time ago. I am sure if I get stronger I can improve my grade.

[@Bobbzorzen]

Super interesting, i'm a V4-5 climber and i can't do a single chin over bar pullup

[@elizabethpogue1562]

I (woman) regularly climb V4 (indoor), sometimes flashing them, and sent one V6 (indoor). The V6 was a technique-y and balance-y slab that was likely mis-labeled. I still can't do a pull-up. If I don't go fully down and stop ~5 degrees from full extension, I can probably do ~5. My elbows hyper-extend and I haven't been able to, despite training and doing negatives, get that first 5 degrees of pull from full extension. Has anyone else ran into this barrier?

[@damian9070]

Thats more than I though. M (26) here I can do about 5 pullups and can do v5 for bouldering, and outdoor 6b+6c for sport.

[@Jackwithoneeye]

Intersting according to this based on what grade i am climbing i should be able to do way more pullups . I only really do pullups in a strength cycle and even then its purely weighted or one arm attempts / training. I usually aim for 5-6 reps then increase weight. At the peak of my power cyle i could do 180% body weight for 3 reps. Would max out around 10-11 reps on bodyweight though probably squeeze out a few more if i didnt care about form . I always figured it was probably kinda low for the numbers i hear people doing but i just figured i never train it. Maybe an underlying weakness i could improve on.

[@olivierdlc1833]

My max is actually 16 pull up with proper form and I climb around v10. I can do a one arm with both hand (actually 2-3 with my right arm). Not sur about the form of those pull ups. Would be more interesting to ask people about the max weighted

[@kais7589]

Was it that some of the interviewed folk thought gym grades and you were comparing to outdoor grades?

[@MyMusicSosa]

I think this is key, in the gym I can climb v4, I don’t think I could touch v4 outside

[@WeCoachYou]

The whole time I couldn’t tell if I was getting compliments for my strength or insults for my climbing, I can’t even climb V3s yet but I can do 15 pull-ups (only been climbing for a couple of weeks but pretty much every day)

[@mydude457]

I wouldn't expect there to be a strong correlation between body pullups and v grade since body weight is more endurance. I think a better metric would be weighted one or two rep max pullups as its more pulling strength and even better if you could measure pullup velocity as explosive power is probably most limiting as the v grade goes up.

[@andrewmccullough559]

Except that even at exceptionally high numbers of BW pull-ups (20+?), typical set times are around or under 30s, and the total load/intensity is high enough to be using the anaerobic systems. In other words, it's not long enough or low enough intensity to be (aerobic) endurance. The more convincing way to illustrate this point: compare BW pull-up numbers to one-rep max weighed pull-up, and you'll find a very strong correlation. If I can do 10-12 BW pull-ups, I can probably do around 1.5 x BW for a one-rep max. If I can (only) do 1.2 x BW, it's very unlikely I'll be able to do more pulls ups at BW than the guy doing 1.5 x BW, as if because I had "more endurance" and he lacked it.

[@Buffalo93]

Why anyone thinks that number of pullups per grade matters or that is anyhow interesting? The same goes to what random numbers beteen 0 and 20 people will tell in this survey? This doesn't translate to climbing well, so how they're supposed to estimate that? Yeah, sometimes you need to pull yourself up during climb, but definitely not 5-10 times, let alone more than that. Even if so, forearms will be limiting factor, as climbing holds aren't as good as the pull up bar.

[@denislejeune9218]

Interesting. Ollie, question for you: my current outdoor proj is a 75-crimp monster (for me) on the vertical with no good rests. I can't work out whether training on a 10 degree wall could help me gain the necessary finger endurance faster than on a vertical one. I've heard so many theories about this.

[@BunnyRaptor]

I was very skeptical when people were guessing like 4 for V4 because when I climbed v4 i could crank out like 15, but I do have pretty bad technique so I think a lower number would be average for people with good technique

[@mystishio]

I'm a V4 climber, can do 8 strict pullups on a good day, but I am heavy, so not very surprised to see it skew higher, really

[@charleskeh7336]

Wouldn't grip strength/stamina make more of a difference?

[@LatticeTraining]

We look at grip strength in the next video in this series.

[@alensiljak]

@@LatticeTraining Is there a way to find that series from this video, without just going to the list of all the videos you've ever done? Thanks, btw, quite enlightening!

[@thenayancat8802]

Bang on average, struggling on V4s and did a max effort 10 pullups this morning! Quite a bit down from my strongest unfortunately

[@zombiecatcher]

Lol hit me right in the feels. I coulda swore I was weak af in my pull.

[@williamlowry8809]

Just curious, what counts here as a "V4 climber"? Someone who can almost all V4s or someone who can do a few every now and then?

[@MyMusicSosa]

I think I’d personally count if you’ve done one or a few V4s outside, is Adam ondra a 9c climber?

[@kadenrenko7575]

I was watching this and I am a bit confused, I am around a V8 climber and I can do 27 pullups so I assumed others could do the same, although I am pretty light so that would make a difference.

[@derekbelanger7839]

I'm really surprised how many pullups climbers can do on average (because I can do much less). Great video and comments here!

[@jonathansoll7073]

Fun video, thanks. I think the fact that the nmber of pullups is lower for women shows that men over value strength (what a shock) and under value flexibility and technique. Now that I'm old and "heavier", I don't think I can do a single pull-up, but can still climb V4.

[@priscillalalalah]

Height would also play a factor here. I'm a 4'11 female, climbing around v6 - v7 and can do 15 pull ups (last time I checked).

[@dan-snow]

First one would have to define a proper pull up as well. Is it with a pull-up with completely extended arms or just head below bar? This would change results quite strongly as well I guess. Everybody does them different. The sample is too small to not make a difference here

[@WutTheFink]

I wonder how slabs would change this. I have a friend who can climb a V10 slab but can do maybe 3 pull ups

[@thebionicclimber9187]

Does V10 slab really exist ? the max i saw was a v8 slab in a gym.

[@shanemonks3408]

Will the phone clipboard be available on the lattice website soon??

[@LatticeTraining]

Currently being patented

[@jasonlink8988]

While I like this concept, a major issue - setting the standard for and tracking the technique of the pull-up. So often you will find swinging, or no scapula retraction. K Boges mentions in his pull-up video that, if people were to do proper form, their numbers will be halved. If they pause, probably halved again. Also I'm wondering who is being polled and how, but someone already brought that up. Still enjoying the content!

[@LatticeTraining]

It's good to discuss the limitations of data like this. As you say, when looking at several hundred data points, any one measure may have many issues. Then there may also be a bias of not using proper technique for greater numbers, although we do ask people to use strict form when completing the assessment. This is why we like to insist people don't strive/train to achieve a mean score in a test like this, because the exact number is unlikely to be an accurate target. These data should just be used as a rough guide. If you sit way out from the mean, its worth taking action. Regarding the data, its not a poll. Its collected from our climbing assessment services. They are done remotely but with guidance to limit variation in technique where possible.

[@chrissendsroutes]

The V4 male pull up count seems pretty insane. I would've had it at max 8 for v4. The v7 count seems spot on, 16'sh. I actually would've had V11 a bit higher than 20 since that's such a steep grade, maybe 24-25.

[@LatticeTraining]

I think the V4 is high because its not representing a 'requirement for the grade' but rather typical strength that climbers already have when they start climbing. A lot of people were surprised by V4, but when I asked what they could pull when they first started climbing i.e. V1 or V2, many would say 8+ pull-ups, in some case 15+. This is because many people find climbing later in life but have some experience training in a gym for example. The other big factor is, as a new climber, the pull-up is a very simple and obvious exercises. So if you are interested in training it's likely the first thing these climbers start doing in the gym. I think the psychosocial factors count for a lot in the data we collect. The interpretation is complex but important.

[@chrissendsroutes]

@@LatticeTraining I think that's spot-on. I'm just biased because a lot of the people I climb with (including myself) came in with very little overall fitness level 😂

[@meowtualaid2887]

I am a V4 / 5.12- climber on slab and i can do 2 pullups max. Pull-up number will tell you what style of route you excel at more then the grade imo

[@LatticeTraining]

Yes for sure!

[@Deus0tiosus]

It would be nice if you added a graph just showing the results compared to eachother, to see the trend of pullup reps increasing with grade. I know it is not hard to get just from watching the video and making notes, but I am too lazy to skip through after already watching and finding out that there is no comparison graph at the end.

[@Ian_climbs]

Not me being a V7 climber with a max pull up of 24😅 albeit I am projecting V8/9s and looking at a few 10s lol

[@xSnowscopes]

is this different for bouldering since it requires less strength-endurance?

[@motion5810]

Wow, I wish I was climbing v11. I can do 20 BW pull-ups pretty easily.

[@JulioCoudio]

My level is around 5C, so between V2 and V3. I cannot perform a pull up, not even a clean push-up, which lead me to difficulties to enter properly into V3 with compression, powerful dyno, and most overhangs. And I must say that I don't understand how the first guy can think someone can perform in V4 without the ability to lift himself. Besides the pinches and crimpes that will ask more fingers and forearms, slopers and volumes at that level already require more than just technique. I'm not surprised by the result, but I'm surprised by the respondents reaction to the reveal.

[@Esudao]

Realistically I'm a V4 climber and I can do about 10 pull ups in a row if I'm feeling fresh. Good to know I'm average. ;)

[@motiOn732]

I'm a v4 climber (beginner) and can probably do 25 pullups. Doing sets of 5 with 70lb of weight. I'm about 155lb.

[@OrionBlaze]

I am able to do 21 pull ups at 82kg but can't climb harder than V4. Maybe hanging time and finger strength are more important contributing factors

[@NothingtoSee93]

I'm a V4 climber (or maybe even a little lower depending on style) and could probably get 12 pullups at a push. I dont know if this is good news or not haha. Looks like I have to work on some other aspect of my climbing.

[@maizalima2493]

I really think each person that votes views at differently. I can do 20 at V7 ( female) so I expected these votes to be higher.

[@ugomaranza6778]

nice ..... and what about climbing outdoor ...pitch ?

[@tibogoub6805]

Are we talking outdoor grades ? Or commercial gym ? Anyways, I thought people would do a lot more pull ups than that. It probably, no actually I know it is time to work on my flexibility and technique...

[@pablopezzoli360]

i have 25 pull up but i do V3 V4 ... but i start to climbing 5 months ago ...

[@ellisroper3008]

How do you control for form?? Seems like "pull up" is too open a definition.. Chest to bar, full range of motion including scapula pull up is the only way to guarantee consistent form across all participents and testers. I imagine the numbers would be much lower in this context

[@EverdayClimber]

I need to do more pull-ups...

[@michaelb2938]

I like this series, I think the sample might be a little skewed by the people you test. They are probably training harder.

[@LatticeTraining]

Quite a lot of factors come into the selection bias in our data. Physical assessments will be more attractive to those that what to train physical attributes like pull-ups. We also work with a lot of time-poor climbers that work full-time jobs and have kids. These climbers can't spend nearly as much time just climbing so strength training becomes a very time efficient way to progress their climbing while reducing injury risk later in life.

[@Cosmicgardening]

At a few lbs of a one arm pull up I definitely can't do 20 pull ups I think the high rep stuff is definitely a different skill 😵

[@theacousticsound9376]

Kinda crazy. I'm a V4-5 climber and can only do max 5 pull ups... maybe I should work on that to improve my climbing

[@martina-cz]

So, I learned that I should be able to climb boulder problems in the V7-V11 range 😊 But I mostly struggle around V4-V5. Finger strength and maybe a little bit more flexibility is missing I guess 🙂

[@Fontainebleauify]

sort by height... even when doing v12s I could only do about 20..... could do a one arm .... but im 181cm. The guys i know around 165-170 cm climbing at that level can do loads.

[@LatticeTraining]

Yeah height and weight make a difference when looking an absolute measure like this. Comparing to the other variables helps make it relative, which is of course important for climbing. Our assessments provid individual feedback based on relative values. For this video we just gave the absolute values because it's such a big audience.

[@Paaazzziii]

I climb V4 and I can do 5 Pull ups. I don't think that pull ups have that much to do with the climbing grade. They do but not as much as you described it

[@creektopfarms5217]

I can do 11 solid but can barely send V3 on a good day. My gym is stiff

[@kevinramirez7408]

I climb V4-V5, and can do only 4-5 pull ups. I have developed a lot of technique, balance and flexibility because I am so weak 😂.

[@kristapsp3497]

Where did you ge the data? As for me can do maybe 5 but still do 7a

[@LatticeTraining]

We run assessments with our clients and offer assessment packages for anyone interested in learning more about their strengths and weaknesses. So our data comes from real climbers.

[@olivierdlc1833]

Looking at the comments, I ant help myself but think that it doesn't make sense to talk about pull up numbers without even talking about the spec of those pull up. Is it all the way down, shoulder disengaged to all the way chin above the bar, without compensating with weird movement pattern ? Or are you starting each repetition midway through, compensating as much as you can and not going chin above the bar for the last 5 reps ? I bet a lot of "20 pull ups people" can do barely 8 solid pull ups. The sad part is that I believe the most valuable part of this movement is the initial shoulder engagement that 2/3 climbers just skip.