osu! - Slider Accuracy

[@Sleepteiner]

I agree that forcing slider accuracy on maps (at least old maps) is a bad idea, both because it would ruin a lot of the intentional design in a ton of maps and because it would mess with historical leaderboards way too much in my opinion. I am an SS player, and while I don't think I would quit if I lost hundreds of hours of effort to a change like this, I know a lot of other SS players that would, and I think that would be tragic for the community as a whole since we need players to show that playing for acc, instead of just aim and speed, is a playstyle that new players can pick if they like it better, instead of just giving up on the game as a whole. However, I don't fully agree with the solution presented in this video. While making it a mod alone would be fine, I think, making it a mod that gives more score and pp would not. Many maps don't use slider linency as a mapping conspect, and some maps don't even use many sliders in general. Because of this, you can't give a flat rate score/pp bonus for this mod, you would have to balance it. Balancing mod score bonus is new territory for the community, and with the complexity of how you would balance this (compared to just giving more or less for HD depending on the AR or something), it would probably take a huge effort for something that most players might not actually appreciate, compared to other balance changes. Good thoughts though. Thanks for discussing this issue, as I think it is a very important one going forward.

[@pinguefy]

wooooah, a new Charles video. there's not much else like it in this community, great stuff.

[@firegen7458]

I feel like this would break more modern "tech" maps more than older maps.

[@VeysTheGreat]

I fully agree with you about the problem at hand and I think that the solution mappers use for that ( "abusing" v1 sliders ) is fully valid. I think this is more of an issue of whether if it should be expected for players to be able to sightread SS maps or having to resort to retrying for that. Not knowing a song / map in a long marathon that has BPM changes, especially in the end will end up getting players punished for not having known the song / map any better, however osu! is a game of retrying ( for most people ), so it could be that people wouldn't mind as much, especially in maps that begin without any rhythm. A good example I can think of are the first four circles in val0108's With a Dance Number - when players really go for a high score play, retrying in order to 300 the first four objects wouldn't be highly impactful and it wouldn't take a long time to hit them with ease. This is also true for tournament maps, players will practice them regularly, memorizing rhythm changes and similar difficulty spikes, so once "it's on" for them in a match, they know what's coming. Another issue is about comparing v2 plays to v1 plays, especially in slider-heavy maps. Unless maps that have been mapped during v1 time are getting ignored by this feature, older high-acc plays will be wrongly rated higher than they actually are, which would be unfair if not recalculated, and if they are going to be recalculated then this might give players right now a sort of negative mentality where playing slider-heavy maps might be called "useless, as I can't know if I acced this right or not" A funny idea would be to have a separate ranking for v2 scores Another idea would be introducing a special new-combo object that is basically a circle but has more forgiving OD, or to put it more abstract; introduce a way to make BPM changes that aren't being hit perfectly more forgiving.

[@VINXIS]

#SLIDERACCASMOD

[@poddop]

vinxis do be spitting facts ....

[@epicpeegaming2438]

VINXIS scorev2

[@blowy_]

great stuff, thanks for using my old replay i'm flattered !!

[@schnibba1234]

peppy brain go boom

[@Triantalex]

thank god you put the 'laughing' text at the start, thought you were crying.

[@DeanHerbertMooCow]

cool video. i usually wouldn't discuss this stuff (for reasons stated below) but because you're charles i'll make an exception! osu! is a rhythm game and we are looking to fix mechanics that are not rhythmic. i don't believe the change will "damage song variety" as much as you may thing, and i'm all for changing the mapping meta. if using sliders in mapping to *avoid* judgement such as in the examples you've given is a conscious thing, that's, in my personal opinion, a case of misuse of game mechanics. do you have any documentation on recommendations being given to mappers of using sliders in such a way to avoid accuracy drops? i'm very curious how often this is/was recommended by BNs or just in general. i'm not going to touch on the "mod" idea because that's not going to happen. core game mechanics will be applied to all players equally. if we made it a toggle, it would be for the mapper, not the player. as an aside, there's a reason i'm not discussing such mechanics yet and i will not reply to this thread/video/topic further - we are not done with tweaking lazer and the game mechanics are NOT how they will be giong forward. it's going to be constantly changing. another example being note lock, which everyone is saying "ITS BEEN REMOVED, PANIC/REJOICE", but they only reason it's not there is because we haven't got to implementing it yet.. yes, it will be fixed in lazer when implemented but it's too early to really make calls and too early for me to involve myself in discussion. carry on though - i love seeing these kinds of videos pop up and i hope they fuel productive discussions about such gameplay mechanics which may aid us in our future decisions :)

[@forna4090]

Sure. Ok. More Rhythm less Osu od the past, I am cool with it. But why not add a whole new circle type and allow us to use 3 keys..? Where in the game development to you see osu being pure music to game 1:1 ratio or being a "to music, its fun to play with and express"? I think that changing the more "gamey" slider mechanic we currently have is a bit too much on the side of min maxing the rhythmic part of this game. Do we all want to ppay mania where it can be auto generated due to the auto generator not knowing that with slider leeway a map can infect represent a song in many more ways? Just food for thought. I love thinking about why and how a map explores its music though the current capabilitys of the editor reslly fun. It feels like you are taking away mkre mechanical possibilities for the wrong reasons

[@kahafb]

My issue with this is, as you said "you're charles". He had a considerable sway in the community before, so I find issue with him posting dishonest videos such as this. People are going to discuss this asinine issue of slider accuracy, pointing to this video cuz he apparently knows his shit or something.

[@VINXIS]

@@kahafb Lol

[@hotgayfurryfeet]

have you ever thought about making something like slider od? mapper can change the od so that they can choose to make the map harder with higher slider od or more playable with lower slider od?

[@Rad-88]

8:15 ''Good song, but Beatmap? well..'' Oof, someone doesn't like your maps charles lol. They don't know what they're missing tbh

[@banana_]

DAMN never thought it as a mod, it feels perfect!

[@blankie4669]

Please continue pishifat legacy thank you

[@dagaki3793]

^ yes please

[@limetwist4870]

I agree ^

[@kingz7151]

It's more like pishi took up Charles' legacy, was really hoping Charles would pick back up the torch tho :(

[@pastap21]

I wanna see someone SS The Big Black with slider accuracy or play Notch Hell or all those tech maps with sv changes and weird shapes.

[@quacc4748]

it's just fundamentally lame that half of the objects in the game require pretty much no timing. if the song changes bpm rapidly, the player should have to play to the song. that should be obvious. the entire segment about rhythm changes more shows the problems with _mapping_ than with slider accuracy. people oversimplifying things when unnecessary. the thing i agree with is intros to songs being unfair. in my humble opinion, it would be best to improve the countdown feature, or perhaps a feature like disabling the hitwindow on the first object or something. but having to acc the slider heads should've never been a problem anyways.

[@daysofthunder6110]

finally someone who makes sense.

[@andraslaszlokiss8801]

Option is always better than choosing one or the other

[@ykybfz272]

In songs in which the bpm of the song does not vary due to human error i think that past use of slider head leniency was mappers trying to make the maps easier by allowing the player to misread the rythm change in the song. I dont think that there should be no punishment for misreading. It makes sightreading much easier which i am guessing the intent is but I don’t think it outwheighs the benefit of accurately being able to judge a players accuracy in slider heavy maps. Now once again this only counts for maps that have predictable bpm changes. I think your solution should be reserved for songs that are unpredictable due to human error only.

[@qx7392]

I can't even 300 a slider most of the time. Then slider accuracy. Im fooked bro

[@tylipscomb5441]

Why this only at 4K views wtt? Very nice video 👍

[@kecHik445]

ah the nostalgic intro

[@askplays]

Great VID!

[@davids7646]

I wouldn't mind slider accuracy if sliders are gonna be rebalanced/buffed and complex ryhtm changes will be rewarded. Cause as it stands now they are kind of underweighted.

[@drayzer_osu]

In osu!lazer there is slider accuracy

[@bemanicat6779]

neat video! if possible... can you re-upload the link under the period on your userpage? doesn't need to be updated on your userpage if you don't want to break your 3-year streak, but i'd like to finally listen to it since it was a bit of a tease haha

[@lCharles445l]

rest in peace puush we'll miss you... I'll have to find a place to put those even if they are hilariously heavy handed

[@kantateethepworawut5570]

@@lCharles445l Yes charles please re-link that part i want to hear it too.

[@Dawnsday]

gameplay decisions made by someone who does not play the game, who is actively going against people who both play the game and make content for the game (using the elements currently being forcefully changed in negative ways). this seems very stupid and also not cool. downboats

[@Dawnsday]

doubt a community vote will ever see the light of day, either. just force fed changes we don't want.

[@devrulx]

wow one of the first times i have agreed with dawnsday

[@TechnoBite]

HeLlOu DeR

[@swerro9978]

you completely missed the subject about hittinf very short kicksliders and buzzsliders earlier which is way more relevant than this one you mentioned. Do you ever watch tournaments? Many many songs and maps have odd rhythm yet players shown to be able to 99%+ in scorev2 on all of them. big disagree but still a well made and explained video gj

[@lCharles445l]

Yeah the buzz slider repeats combo break, I made a bug report about it many years ago and it never got fixed. I don't blame them though, it seems REALLY hard to fix. About tournaments, those skilled players have practiced the map numerous times, which means they've heard the song a lot and know what to expect from the map. The issues with slider accuracy are seen when a person plays a map for the first time, or hasn't memorized where a map has strange rhythm.

[@italaugh83745]

I don't really agree with the degree of hand holding being presented as what mappers should strive towards. I mean commercial rhythm games like jubeat or VSRGs have no issues presenting accuracy judgments on every single object. Fundamentally, aside from the very first scenario with the circles presented, I think you focus too much on trying to simplify and spoon feed any "strange" (read: not the dominant snapping of the map) rhythm to the player when the entire point of a rhythm game is to recognize and play along with the more interesting rhythms in the song. Even in that lan wings map I really think he could have used more circles within reason and that spamming sliders with no accuracy requirement makes the map entirely misrepresent the wonky, meandering feeling of the song. As far as higher difficulties go, having rhythm judgments on sliders seems like an obvious benefit to the "rhythm gameness" of osu; for low diffs, slider head judgments would be a logical way to prepare new players for that in higher diffs, and low diffs tend to use extremely simplified rhythm in any case so the added acc challenge would not be too out of line.

[@vreguclips8688]

I have power

[@StanR-li1fk]

BPM changes were and gonna be mapped using circles as well and it never been much of a problem. In your first example player hits all bpm changes on time anyway - if sliders were replaced with circles nothing would've change. Same is with rhythm changes. Yes, these will get harder for people to hit, but thats an expected thing is a rhythm game - the harder the rhythm the harder the map should be to play. It does kinda limits mappers, but at the same time, is abusing broken mechanic really the only way of mapping interesting rhythms? Adding slider accuracy even on existing maps wont make experience worse, hundreds of tournament players that are already used to v2 can confirm that its just a matter of getting used to PROPERLY playing not only circles, but also sliders. Just git gud, really. Its only seems to be hard because you're used to cheesing sliders and "restoring" your inner beat using them. As for start of the map - eh, dont think you can really do anything about it. Slider accuracy as a mod is stupid, honestly. You either have it or not, it shouldn't be a preference. And it's ALREADY a mod by the way. Go play with it, get used to it and understand, that its not that hard and your acc will be worse only for the first couple of days.

[@a-linn]

Add slider OD

[@youreagimp]

What skin are you using?

[@walavouchey]

Being called a rhythm game, hard rhythm should be hard to hit accurately. Right now, hard songs are represented in maps more by speed than rhythm, which is undervalued by lenient judgements.

[@HaHaBear]

this is probably the best assessment of the difficulty problems in modern mapping. kudos

[@kahafb]

You seriously overestimate how much of an issue this is, and honestly you have so little faith in both players and mappers being able to play something more difficult to the point where I'd say you're unintentionally mocking them. And the examples shown in this video made me feel like I was in the twilight zone. Showing a 2009 map as an example, and I don't know if I saw any modern map. I get that you haven't played this game in years, but if so then you shouldn't be making misleading videos such as this one. Seems like to me you just want to push your ancient ideals onto the present day with no actual thought put into how the game has evolved over the years.

[@lCharles445l]

My opinions do come from my experiences in the game from 2010 - 2016, it's up to you and others to decide if that invalidates them or not. To clarify, it's not about things being "more difficult" to play, it's how that difficulty is being achieved. Some of the best video games get really difficult, and osu! is one of them. There's "fair" difficulty and "unfair" difficulty in games. Usually, "unfair" either means that it takes a lot of luck (like roulette), or knowledge of what's coming up ahead of time (I wanna be the boshy, the impossible quiz, or any platformer that calls itself "unfair") Most of the stuff in this video is about avoiding "unfair" things that require knowledge of what's coming up ahead of time.

[@VINXIS]

@@raedev they arent

[@lCharles445l]

This isn't about slider accuracy being the ONLY way to make stuff readable, this is about it being an option when other readability techniques may not be adequate. If you look at my "Mirage Garden" difficulty, it's a diff that switches between 1/3, 1/4, and 1/6 a lot. Techniques are used to make the set readable (showing rhythms as repeats before asking the player to play them as circles, consistent new combos, consistent spacing to show 1/4 and 1/6, etc)However, there was a readability gap that needed to be closed, and you can see it in the video at 6:31. The ideal scenario is those brief gaps get taught to the player in some other way, like slider ends, but that doesn't always work, and it's incredibly valuable to have this sort of thing to use.