Lead is dead//Australia to ban lead core projectiles for hunting!!! Expansion test of copper bullets

[@Jojomomo236666]

We appreciate the time and effort you’ve put in here mate, and bringing more light to this matter. Legend.

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

Thanks for your comment mate 👍 glad you got something out of the vid

[@briankelly2886]

I find copper bullets far superior to lead. Especially Barnes x- bullets of various designs.I still go heavy for caliber and moderate velocity and they still do plenty of damage.They are also some of the most accurate bullets I've ever shot.The only drawback is the price.

[@johnmacleod7789]

An excellent set of analysis and covering story - thank you

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

Cheers John, glad you found it interesting

[@philbensley297]

Very informative video. Thanks for taking the time to put it together. Do you think, as the copper projectiles have a lot better weight retention would loading light for calibre resolve the longer range expansion issues you had with the 30-06 and 308. ie instead of 150s in the 30-06 would the 140 or even a 130 be a better option as these will carry a higher velocity out further?

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

Thanks mate, yes dropping to a lighter weight would solve the issues as the velocities would be higher.

[@MMLife-n5l]

G'day mate, I have been using OuterEdge Projectiles for 7 years. Their performance has been incredible, awesome weight retention and consistent performance. I am shooting the 140g hollow points out of a Tikka T3x 300WM using their load data and at 100m they are going through the same hole at 200m I am getting between 1/4 and 1/2 MOA groupings. Have just ordered a couple of boxes of 140g BBT's. I will not be changing projectiles anytime soon.

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

Great feedback mate thanks for your comment 👍

[@TrailerYacht]

Steph & Nathan Foster in NZ have the runs on the board shooting deer - and they hate copper projies with the heat of a million burning suns because they don’t kill cleanly - in their vast experience. This must be personal choice NOT law. If we just accept it, the regs will only continue to get tighter and tighter. I use Steve Hurt’s OuterEdge projectiles personally, and truly love them. My issue is being FORCED to use copper, without any choice or scientific studies to back up the decision.

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

💯 with you on this one mate

[@SamsHuntandCook]

I've always been on the fence with monolithic projectiles, but after seeing those kinds of retention percentages, I'll have more confidence in giving them a go. Let's hope it doesn't go that way! 🤞🏻 Thanks for putting the time and effort into that experiment Zeb, very much appreciated 👍🏻

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

Cheers Sam, I have no doubts about their weight retention or penetration. If used in magnum cartridges they will preform well out to all ethical hunting distances

[@SamsHuntandCook]

@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures I kinda want to just build a round for the 300rum now out of interest, no doubt it would be ethical as you said. Im also interested to see how far I can push it before it drops down to that 2100fps non expansion zone. I might have to crunch some numbers 🤔 Thanks Zeb

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

@@SamsHuntandCook the Rum will push a 175gn pretty quick, I'd say you would be comfortably above 2100fps past ethical distances

[@retro8477]

Great Vid Zeb as a new hunter ive never use copper ammo and was kinda worried about the changes. This vid helped a lot cheers mate

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

Well if your the only one it helps the video was a success mate 👍

[@fubar9109]

WTF does the government have what we hunt with.!!!! The overreach of this government is getting out of hand.!!!

[@dave9.3]

Great review of coppers mate. I use outer edge in my 270wsm they smash fallow well. I generally only shoot max to 250m. I dont support banning of lead, hunters shuld have the choice.

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

Excellent feedback Dave 👍 out to that distance they would both preform perfectly 👌

[@dallasnewson6977]

270wsm in on my next gun list.

[@oncall21]

Excellent video and explanation Zeb. Thanks for sharing!

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

Thanks for your comment 👍

[@michaelgumleyguitar]

Quick question - do these ammunition suppliers sell ready-to-go rounds or do you have to buy the bullet and load it yourself?

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

I don't believe you can get these in loaded ammunition. Reload only at this stage

[@ianpenford3846]

I'm going to apologise in advance for this long comment..... Firstly, great video Zeb. We all appreciate the time you have taken to put this together. So correct me if I'm wrong, but the Vic Gov is concerned about the health and wellbeing of animals that may feed on lead 'contaminated' carcasses (ultimately small lead shot from shotgun shells being ingested by birds of prey feeding on non-recovered waterfowl')? Can this in any way be compared to fragments of rifle projectiles left in the field following butchering of a deer? Show me that study. If anything, it may help to reduce the wild dog population! How does 1080 baiting play into that rhetoric? So are they going to ban the use of lead sinkers for fishing due to concerns over their impact on the marine environment? I was on a recent hunting trip with a mate who has shot 180g Core-Lokt's out of his 308 for years, with great success. For this trip he wanted to try 150g coppers due to recent discussions about the possible law change. Long story short, after shooting a 3-4 year old Rubar Stag, a long tracking mission commenced, with multiple close range follow up shots required to finally dispatch the animal, this included spine and high shoulder shots. This is something he has never experienced before, with many of the projectiles passing straight through. This experience caused undue suffering to the animal and stress on the hunter. Needless to say, he will not support a change to solid coppers! While I do support the need for government to specify calibre and projectile weights for rifle hunting, and draw-weight, broadhead type and arrow weights for bow hunting (as some people do need the guidance), the focus should really be on the 'ethical' harvesting of an animal. Happy and safe hunting.

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

I agree with you mate, 1080 is banned in almost every other country except NZ. There is little evidence of any need for this and is likely not driven by science. Copper kills different to lead and will take some getting used to for some of us.

[@clintbrewer4851]

True to form, exceptional content once again.

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

Thanks for that, Clint 👍 appreciate you taking the time to comment

[@tcr-jx6pl]

What about the thousands of .22 rimfire all lead projectiles that are used weekly all over Aust., they would probably account for a great deal of the lead used in ammo. With what do they plan to replace those projectiles.

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

So far this is just for deer hunting in Victoria

[@Huey850MP]

Thanks for the detailed review mate. I’d be keen to see some results of the Winchester copper impact bullets in 308. they have a polymer tip. I’m wondering if that would help expansion.we should encourage Aussie suppliers to manufacture copper bullets with polymer tips if they perform better.

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

No worries mate, I'm not sure if it would help or not. Maybe that's why the ball bearing tip ones expanded at lower velocities?

[@rockynrolling6206]

the copper impacts are good stuff, they're worth trying if you haven't already

[@shurt6312]

We have found that polymer tips don't actually perform as well as steel ball bearing tips, which is why we don't use them.

[@janinesnowdon7218]

Gotta keep the lead core good video zeb 👍

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

@janinesnowdon7218 thanks for your support 🙏 and yes 💯

[@rcq87]

Thoughts on thermal monoculars becoming lawful for use during the day time?

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

They should never be allowed on public land for hunting purposes. They do not align with fair chase ! Leave them to culling operators. Say no to thermal devices in out public land

[@rcq87]

@@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures Couldn't agree more. Let's hope people are submitting this in response to the impact statement / proposed regs

[@towarzyszbeagle6866]

​@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures I completely disagree. I've been in situations where I have shot a deer and it's plunged into thick scrub before dying. A three hour hunt for the downed deer through chest height ferns then ensued. A thermal would have allowed the downed deer to be located much more quickly. I have friends who have had the same experience but been unable to locate the deer they shot. Which means all that meat just goes to waste. I can definitely see a place for thermal use with reasonable restrictions. Your absolutist opinion has nothing backing it up other than traditionalism. To be honest though I'm much more concerned about the resumed push for the Great Forest National Park at the moment.

[@Darryl-o3z]

What about all the 1080 that gets dropped in the bush , what is the by catch with that

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

Exactly, NZ and Aus only countries that haven't banned it

[@dancoope256]

Love the video Zeb, well explained! Keep up the good work mate 👍

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

Thanks for taking the time to comment mate 👍

[@concernedaussie1330]

Bloody awesome video mate ! If this banning of lead hunting bullets happens , I can see plenty of wounded game coming down the pike! I’ve been a cast lead 454 casull carbine guy for the past 15ish years . What a hammer it is , kiss keep it simple stupid. It’s not energy , as you said. I have found that 250gr rnfp at 1100fps muzzle velocity kills absolutely fine . ( .452 ) They say with cast @ moderate velocity, you can eat right up to the hole. Non hunters have no business telling hunters how to go about their job! Thanks again mate awesome, liked & subbed . Btw my usual load is 300gr @ 1910fps .

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

Thanks for your sub mate 👍 that's a big bullet and no doubt whacks them hard !

[@concernedaussie1330]

@@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures the bullet is too big imo! My thinking is all mono type bullets act very similar, they all have their own sweet spot in regards of impact velocity & how the metal / alloy yields. If one stays inside those parameters the bullet will usually work & intended. ( as you explained very well ) However the general population that own firearms, don’t understand “ those parameters “ . Their blessed with the availability of “ cup & core “ that just dam work ! Force rules / laws upon the uneducated , animals will suffer! Just my opinion. Btw it’s amazing how many people use the wrong bullet / caliber / gun combinations just to save a few $$$ . But it works the other way too! People throwing tons of cash at equipment, but have no idea. Cheers mate.

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

@concernedaussie1330 thanks for your comment 👍 if this goes through we will have to rethink how we do things. Especially those stretching the distances. Do you think the 130gn was to big for the 308w? 130gn is the legal limit for Sambar.

[@concernedaussie1330]

@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures monolithic & lead based bullets act differently & can't be compared to one another. Simple as that. This is exactly what happens when governments get involved in anything. I believe we should have a totally separate firearms / hunting body . One who's whole focus should be about the positive attitude of firearms management & control. Including hunting & pest management. Police should be removed totally & concentrate on policing & crime prevention. Our firearms industry & R&D has been seriously handicapped.

[@concernedaussie1330]

@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures back to the 130gr 308. I haven't actually done anything with copper bullets yet mate. & to be honest, I've never been a fan of " long range hunting ". Sure it can be done , & a small few I'm sure can do it very well. However it really comes back to knowing your own personal limitations, including equipment. 115-130gr from a 308 will equal out at about the same distance. Give or take 20 meters or so. Nothing wrong with a 300 meter hunting rifle IMO.

[@nekminet1315]

Great vid From my experience sub 30 cal and you will have longer tracking jobs when using mono bullets. The petal shedding designs such as Cutting Edge seem to be the exception. Cheers for your efforts

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

Thanks mate, love the feedback 👍

[@redsparks90]

What's amazing is the lack of studies in Australia for this and they have enough curry to try and put this through. If it passes we can legally use our projectiles for lead sinkers, no worries 😂

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

Yeah mate there's no sense to any of it really. That's why we have to do the survey 👍

[@Australian.Hunting.Backcountry]

Studies have 'apparently' been done with bone scans to measure lead content. The issue is that because they are recent there is no baseline so there is no real data to show that the lead levels are trending up (or down) and there is no certainty of tracking where the lead is coming from i.e. is it from fish?

[@concernedaussie1330]

@Australian.Hunting.Backcountry it's all a scam to disarm us further, from every angle of attack . Buy backs , amnesties, baning this & that , appearance laws, pistol grips , toy guns , using any excuse to exclude someone from having a licence or revoking thier licence. Calibre restrictions, total refusal of suppressors. Disruption of ammunition & components. Primer shortages, fast burning powder deleated from supply chains. Now banning of lead projectiles. If people can't see it or join the dots , they will never see it . As long as it doesn't happen to me attitude exists, we are doomed to the last man standing.

[@shaneironside58]

What powder are you using for the 300WM? I’m using ADI 2225, I’m not liking it

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

You won't fit enough 2225 in behind a mono, I tried 2213sc but shot terrible. Switched to 2209 for better accuracy with the 160gn

[@shaneironside58]

@@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures cheers for that, I’ll check it out

[@4thehounds383]

What about the calibres that they don’t make full copper bullets for. 375 H&H for example

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

Hornady and Cutting edge do monolithic for .375. Admittedly you'll have a limited choice

[@shurt6312]

Outer Edge make something for just about everything from 22 cal to 50 and everything in between ( except 303's and the weird Africans

[@pavlovaw15]

Thanks for the video. I have spent a lot of time researching and looking at monolithics. I was using the 235 I think they were grainPredator Projectiles in 338 when they first came out, but found the extended ranges I was using them for hunting, they were no good at all. Had to have a copper core projectile, also with the lower projectile weight of the monolithic, the BC suffered greatly, which meant the trajectory wasn't anywhere near as flat as I was getting with the 300 grain Bergers doing a slower muzzle speed. But the killing power of the 300 grain Berger was amazing. I believe all this is doing is restricting the hunting range that people will be humanely taking animals, especially past 200 yards, where a rib shot will open up a copper projectile, but a monolithic won't. This is cruelty at its best for an issue that doesn't exist. A politician must have bought one of these projectile companies.

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

Yep we will all have to re assess our effective hunting ranges if this happens.

[@pavlovaw15]

@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures Indeed, but shooting into wet rags is completely different to shooting at an animal. Definitely having to use dirt to get some to expand is a very unrealistic demonstration of how a projectile will perform on game. This is very stupid and would only be good for the larger animals, where even the small caliber monolithic are still too hard for small game.

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

@pavlovaw15 you might be surprised how similar the results are from rags to an animal. Which I know have recovered projectiles from both

[@colinperso5825]

Great you've tried the two products but rags and water is hardly a comparison to live animal muscle and bone testing in the field.

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

What would you suggest would be a better material to test into ? I'm sure if any of these impact bone they will expand perfectly, my worries are formed around if it hits back of lungs/ribs will they expand at all at distance. My guess is if rags stuffed into a tub full of water won't expand them, hide, light muscle and internal organs like lungs/liver aren't going to either. The fact that this test media captured all but 2 projectiles tells me it might even be a more dense media than a deer's ribs. From all accounts they exit deer if hit behind the front shoulder ? What's your experience at low velocities?

[@colinperso5825]

@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures Testing on actual game would always be a better medium. They don't always exit but yes if broadside most will. They are also good on a less than ideal shot angles into the vitals due to their extra penetration IMHO

[@colinperso5825]

Horses for courses, as you said they aren't the projectile if you're shooting super long ranges. I haven't had any issues killing African Plains game and Sambar in the 200m -350m range withe calibres ranging from 300wsm to 450 Rigby

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

@colinperso5825 yeah I'd have no hesitation with any magnum cartridge. My worry is the non magnum cartridges that 80% of new hunters will be using and with the new age hunter prepared to send a long shot just because he has a dial up scope. Recipe for a disaster

[@colinperso5825]

@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures Yes, it's important hunters understand how monos work compared to conventional cup and core/bonded projectiles. An 800m killing projectile they are not,but they are an excellent performer if you stay within their capabilities. I switched from jacketed lead core to monos years ago and have had fantastic results over the years, but thats just my experience.

[@pauljay1328]

Do you reckon ADI,Buffalo river will start producing copper factory ammo

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

I'm not sure but I'd love to see these projectiles in a factory offering

[@timpaizis]

Well explained mate shot of video

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

Thanks Tim 👍

[@paulsouth4794]

Howdy .. I'm using the outer edge 150gr hollow .. with the book loads using 2209 .

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

In what cartridge Paul?

[@paulsouth4794]

@@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures 30-06 at a little over 3000 fps . Reasonable hunting accuracy on papaer . To date I have only scared a deer. I struggled with the .265 103gr ? Grain in a 6.5SE am trying barns 100gr next range day .

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

@@paulsouth4794 3000fps with the 150gn will work really well out to all reasonable hunting distances. Good luck and shoot straight 👍

[@huntinginaust.6463]

Love the Title 👍 Lead for the win mate

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

😁 thanks mate, let's hope so

[@huntinginaust.6463]

@@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures Woodleigh do the Solid Brass Projes have seen this work pretty well driven in 338

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

@huntinginaust.6463 woodleigh factory burnt down a while ago so they will be hard to acquire. Not sure anyone else is doing brass ?

[@huntinginaust.6463]

@@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures yes could very well be hard to acquire, their factory burnt down in 2021 I see and I believe their take on Solid Brass is the only Australian Made offering

[@outbackstalker6124]

I prefer heavy for calibre cup and cores. Have never got good expansion out of monos out of my 30-06 even at very close range.

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

My results show you can expect monolithic to expand above 2300fps reliably. That means you need to push them pretty quick in the 06 so a 140-150gn would suit

[@glennpatten845]

Great presentation there mate.

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

Thanks Glenn 👍 hope you guys did alright up the Gatta this week

[@glennpatten845]

@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures nah too much gusty winds and crunchy leaf litter.

[@michaelhunter3471]

Great Video mate, I don`t think many will be switching to full copper as a lot off people have investing a lot off money into acquiring there chosen projectiles for reloading as they are so hard to get hold off and have years worth in stock so unless they are going to shell out money to reimburse hunters then they will use them until they run out. What is next they have banned hunting with a bow in South Australia and now this, they might as well take all weapons off everyone and just let China walk in.

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

Thanks Michael, seems like we are always loosing something in the hunting world doesn't it

[@simons375]

Who are these uneducated people making decisions on things they probably don’t understand, it’s annoying but as a member of SSAA, ADA, Field and Game and a few more I will always do my best to make my voice heard and help others to do the same. As fare as projectiles, I use and have worked up Woodleigh, and I have found there weight retention to be exceptionally good. I shoot 200gr out of a 300rum, I generally retrieve most with a weight of 165gr and expansion of 18.9mm. All deer I have shot have dropped on the spot, would be a shame to have to go full copper. I like walking to a deer and not have to go find it 2 or more valleys over. A dropped deer has the best meat with low to no blood, just my rant!

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

I feel your pain mate, we all have a pet projectile that has served us well and change isn't what we want

[@tallboy49]

Another problem with these long bullets is when reloading the projectile enters the powder space which could give compressed loads.

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

Yes, exactly. You need to run faster powder to compensate

[@dougalmcalpine6804]

What am I supposed to do with all my lead core ammo then? The government should do an ammo buy back.

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

Don't hold your breath mate 😬

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

@PRCRED they'll ban them next

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

@PRCRED 😂 Mark's a great bloke

[@craigparker4108]

Federal Fusion & Terminal Ascent retain 96% & 99% with 2.5 & 2.3 times expansion. ELDX are a glorified match bullet, ok if you like eating lead but would never use them on game. Is this ban only in Vic ? Those tests were done by Mason Leather YT channel over the last 2 weeks.

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

My results show similar performance with both projectiles at high velocities. Yes only Victoria at this stage. The Eld-x is new school hunting bullet design. Just because it's cup and core doesn't make nitro a target bullet. There are differences between the X and M for a reason. They preformed perfectly on this test. How many eat the meat in the shot zone to be eating lead ?

[@craigparker4108]

@@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures Just going off Ballistic gel tests over 18 inches of penetration Much shedding can occur into both shoulders in up to medium size game. I just don't like cup & core for me they are a cheap way of eliminating ferals.

[@scottthompson9220]

Why are they pushing to ban lead projectiles can’t see a valid reason in my mind been use lead projectiles for 45 plus years government employees trying to make a job for themselves 😂

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

They claim eagles are dying from ingesting lead from deer shot by hunters using le a d core projectiles

[@scottthompson9220]

Must be the same clowns that advise the government on the so called impact Samba are doing to the high country and they must be removed at taxpayers cost and eagle 🦅 picks a bullet out of a deer and swallows it they sort stones and bones from the meat as they feed and cars kill eagles on the sides of roads are they going to ban cars bull sh..t driven by those that want everything introduced removed from the landscape but them selves thousands of rounds of ammunition will go under ground if it’s passed and policing it would be impossible

[@timpaizis]

Imagine what must be happening to all the hunting eating the same animals

[@tallboy49]

They will claim anything. We are expected to believe everything that the government tells us. I doubt that an eagle would swallow a lump of lead or anything else for that matter. The bullet does not disentergrate into a million particles.

[@towarzyszbeagle6866]

Most traditional cup and core projectiles heavily fragment when they deform, leaving small lead pieces through parts of the animal. There is apparently evidence (mainly from studies in the US) that show scavenging animals can consume and die from lead poisoning through this.

[@joelbrown458]

This really grinds my gears. The comparison between lead and copper is worlds apart. This is a great video zeb but at ranges past 300 yards copper projectiles won’t perform. There hard the don’t expand at low velocity and there light three things that are needed for an extended range projectile . There marketing will tell you other wise but real world performance is very different. Unfortunately the animals will suffer just so we can fit the status quo. People need to get real. Eagles are not dying as a result of lead it’s possibly more the 1080 baits tossed from the choppers or the use of glyphosate. We’re in a sad state of affairs here in aus now. Very slippery slope here on out.

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

Hey Joel, I agree with the second half of your comment 👍 not so much with your opinion on copper past 300yds. There are specific all copper projectiles available designed for extended ranges. There are requirements your rifle will need to use them but this is true for any long range rifle. Specifically tight twist rate barrels. Your comment that animals will suffer worries me a little bit. If and it's still an if, we have to change to copper we might need to rethink a few things on how we go about our hunting. If copper bullets don't work at the distances you are currently shooting deer at with lead core you don't shoot at them. You must get closer to where your projectiles will reliability work. This is true for lead just as much, you don't see anyone shooting Sambar at distance with a 150gn Rem core lokt but out to 300yds it'll work fine. Copper might mean we need to change our current rifle setup to suit them. Butter edge has a 30cal 215gn that is designed for long range and has been tested way past what I call ethical hunting ranges. Ps this isn't me saying I support the ban of lead I'm 100 % a Hornady ELD-X man, I'm just saying there are options if we have to go this way. It's not the end of how we do anything just a different way and requires different tools to achieve it

[@colinbridge3466]

Thanks for an interesting review

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

Cheers Colin 🍻

[@Australian.Hunting.Backcountry]

Thousands and thousands of hunters in the US are hunting at all ranges with mono projectiles in all calibres. There are no perfect projectiles for every situation regardless of construction type. People seem to be objecting simply out of their inconvenience and/or because the govt is telling us what to do.

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

I don't believe that is true, most are objecting because there is no evidence that lead bullets are causing any deaths to birds in Australia.

[@joelbrown458]

No there not.. and if they tell you there killing game at extended ranges with monolithic projectiles you’ve been had mate. You can’t tell me a monolithic projectile will kill at 800m + like a frangible soft eld m that will expand down to 1400fps shed majority of its weight causing a broad wide wound. In the absence of velocity (extended ranges ) you need projectile weight to initiate expansion and that projectile also needs to be soft. Copper won’t do this period. We have bigger issues then lead. No one seems to address the use of glyphosate Willy nilly everywhere and knowing that it is a known man killer yet banning lead makes them feel warm and fuzzy. Get real. Australian hunting backcountry I believe it’s guys like yourself with the platform you have that should be making a stand not just taking someone else’s advice with no real world experience and accepting this nonsense.

[@Australian.Hunting.Backcountry]

@@joelbrown458 I appreciate your passion and input here but I think you've made an assumption - I have not stated that I'm for (or against) the ban on lead core projectiles. I am simply seeking information from everyone about why copper may or may not be a reasonable alternative. Alot of the comments I've read (not just in here) are just emotion based responses so I am challenging people to encourage them to go and do their own research so they can make an informed conclusion on this topic. You've made good points about the behaviours of copper projectiles but I don't believe this is across the board with all brands. There are a number of other mono-manufacturers out there that we just don't see in this country - yet. I don't want to use my platform to push my opinions on everyone as I may not be correct. I want to use it to provide people access to the information that is out there - and some of that information may challenge what you know or believe. I'm more than happy to learn from other people about their views on things. But if I'm going to make a stand, I want to make sure I'm well armed with evidence not just opinion. To your points above though, the percentage of hunters in Australia that are actually capable (and have the opportunity) of ethically shooting a deer at 800m I would suggest is in the single digits. I am happy to state that the vast majority of deer shot in Vic would be well under that range. I also see that Hornady recommend the minimum velocity for their ELDX is 1600 fps and I know some mono manufacturers (Hammer for example) recommend a minimum of 1500 fps for expansion. I've also heard people (with genuine real world experience) talk about the permanent and temporary wound channels and the effect they have on the death of an animal and that different projectiles have different characteristics on this effect. There are alot more questions to ask but these are topics that I need more information on and I will seek out people to talk to so I can bring this to you all. What we need to also be mindful of is the ulterior motives of the government in this proposed ban and the under-table political deals that may have been done with certain anti-hunting parties. To that effect, we need to make sure that this doesn't divide us - regardless of our opinions on the topic. If you want to reach out to discuss more or you have some access to information that you think is useful, please do.

[@B61Mod12]

Inconvenience and government telling people what to do are reasons enough to object.

[@petercraft8634]

What most are not considering is the effect this will have on those who choose to hunt with lever guns an shotguns in thicker scrub full copper projectiles wont be effective in those round if velocity is the key for good expansion, i hunt with bolt guns but i have friends that use 30/30's an 45/70's which will struggle to run solid copper. To me its another way of thinning out what is going to be useful hunting tool for the hunters.

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

There are some specific copper for lever but I'm not sure how they preform to be honest

[@Mafk101]

It's really frustrating, but I do see where they're coming from. Lead poisoning impacts birds of prey really badly, and I've had multiple times where I've seen a wedgie or a hawk take off from the carcass of my kill the next day. Lead core bullets work so well, and they're so much cheaper than the solid copper ones, so I'm really torn on this issue.

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

Bet you haven't seen a dead eagle or hawk though ? The impact would be minimal at best. More would die from secondary poisoning from 1080

[@huntinginaust.6463]

@@Mafk101 lead poisoning would be near impossible to measure in my opinion, most likely minute doses long term but I don’t think an animal would eat shrapnel

[@mchughcb]

​@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures report says of the 63 wedge tail Eagles studied 42 were from wind farms. Obvious solution is to ban wind farms.

[@markandmellwhiteley7995]

there is no "where they are coming from" , they used the exact same crap when getting rid of lead shot for shooting ducks, the biggest indiscriminate killer of wedgetail eagles and hawks is 1080 where the government does drops with their helicopters like they have done in the Otways in the past the monolithic projectiles punch straight threw and will wound more than kill with body shots, they also have a very small window where they expand

[@hawks_stuff]

338WM with 210Gr Barnes work bloody well

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

yeah my Dad used them for a while.

[@stevejeffries5843]

Probably appropriate to change your heading from Australia to Victoria. 🤗

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

Click bait mate 😉

[@philfossil3960]

You shoulda used balistics gel to show us what happens ‼️

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

I'm not that fancy 🤷

[@ldegouw]

If you are using Atomic 29, you will just need to keep your shots within 250m for slow velocity calibers. Saying the wet rags was not a tough enough medium is not correct. Containers of water are actually harder on bullets than animals. Remember a barnes all copper bullet will fully expand shooting just a grape. Watch the video

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

Yep your right about the distances, a grape now I have to see that 🤔

[@markandmellwhiteley7995]

what do you call accurate? weight retention only means that the projectile does not expand enough

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

Expansive is necessary for a wound channel to be effective. No one hunts with full metal jacket. I'm not sure what your question about accuracy is about ? I didn't test for access.

[@markandmellwhiteley7995]

@@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures in fact you are hunting with a full metal jacket if you dont get fragmentation so to be effective the bullet needs to go through both sides of the animal to bleed out, same as an arrow, the window for expansion is too small for the average hunter to GAF about distances and velocities losing many deer that are wounded because of it, the idea of bullet weight retention is about shooting big game animals that need heavy bullets that hold together behind plenty of kinetic energy that you dont get with these copper projectiles, big failure, only the salesman uses weight retention as a good thing, its a salesman ploy there is a reason benchrest do not shoot with these projectiles they are not precise or accurate to shoot bore cleaning is different as well as dangerous higher pressures caused by the copper left behind and these bullets copper your bore very quickly, when l did tests l had to stop on very light loads because of very high pressures caused by the bore coppering, a big danger to shooters chambers will have to be cut differently to suit these bullets if you are going to try to keep the same weight making a hell of a lot of rifles unusable because they have a short throat, remingtons are one rifle made usually with short throats these bullets are not a good idea for the average shooter and the reasons for them to be taken away are BS they have a use and that is for blasting at close range but a shotgun with slugs will do a better job

[@HillDogTV]

good info there

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

Thanks HillDog, took some time to do so hopefully it educates a few that don't have the time or resources to test these things 👍

[@nathanbailey9153]

First I want to say I'm 100% opposed to banning lead bullets for hunting. That said, maybe you should try the Barnes LRX - they expand consistently down to 1600fps (480mps) and have a decent BC so the longer range shots are still maintaining velocity. You stated "it doesn't matter what brand, they all perform similar". That simply isn't true. While weight retention is universally high (unless they are designed to fragment, like some of the Cutting Edge bullets), a lot of the copper bullets simply don't expand consistently like Barnes bullets do, especially in "marginal" conditions. It's great you are supporting an Aussie company, but if their copper bullets don't perform up to Barnes standard (or close to it) then you are doing yourself a disservice by only using these. Personally, with the Barnes TSX and TTSX, I've decided I'm going to all copper (except in my old .35 Rem) since they perform just as well or better in most instances, and I'm not getting a lead spray in my meat. Now with the LRX, the deal is sealed. You really should check out the Barnes LRX bullets.

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

I might repeat the test with the "brand" copper projectiles to compare. You seem fairly confident the Barnes will preform better

[@nathanbailey9153]

@@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures Fairly confident, but never 100% of course. That said, I have certainly seen "inconsistent" results with boutique copper bullets, and have consistently seen pretty good results from Barnes copper bullets, especially the newer ones (LRX, TTSX, TSX). And Hornady CX also seem to be pretty good in testing, although I have less experience with them. There are other good solid copper bullets, but many of the smaller manufacturers seem to have inconsistent results. There is a reason that Barnes (along with Swift) are among the favorite bullets used by "Professional Hunters" (PH's) in Africa. They perform consistently well.

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

@nathanbailey9153 from what I've seen and tested all these bullets would preform perfectly at distances encountered in Africa. It's the low velocities or longer ranges that seem to test these bullets out, barnes and hornady included

[@shurt6312]

Check out what Barnes say about their expansion velocity requirements for the TTSX on their website - 2,200 fps min. The LRX bullets, don't fit all magazines or match well with many of the commonly used slower twist rates in commercial rifles. It's a balancing act that isn't as easy as many would like to suggest. There's no universal answer for anything, especially with the enormous variety of hardware out there. Serious homework needs to be done for the best fit for your application and situation.

[@nathanbailey9153]

@@shurt6312 You are making it harder than it really is. It's no harder (and in some ways easier) to pick a decent copper option that it is to pick a decent lead option. The fact is, poor performance from lead core bullets is what got me looking at copper to begin with (bullets "exploding" at close ranges and higher velocities). Most shots happen within 300 yards, even in more open areas. But there are plenty of "copper" offerings that can reach much further. Both Barnes and Hornady, as well as "Hammer Bullets" offer multiple weight offerings for nearly every caliber. You can watch tons of ballistic gelatin and water tests online, including stuff by people like "Simple Minded Fella" who do tests both at low and high velocities, and pick a few to test for yourself. The Hornady CX expands consistently around 2000fps and the Barnes LRX expand consistently as low as 1600fps (depending on the bullet, maybe lower). If you don't reload, your options are more limited, but you are pretty much guaranteed to have a cartridge that will work in your magazine and twist rate. Test a few and see if they are reasonably accurate. For example, worst case scenario, a .308 Winchester shooting the Hornady Outfitter 165gr CX will be effective on an elk out to 330 yards. That is as far as you should ever shoot an elk with .308 with any bullet. The .300 Win Mag Hornady Outfitter 180gr CX will be effective on Elk out to 500 yards. With Federal Trophy Copper, you can stretch that to 600yds. That is plenty far. And Sambar deer are smaller than American Elk. Custom fitting a high BC handload will get you further. Most shots are taken within 300 yards, and most people cannot effectively shoot past 500 yards. If you truly can, you are probably reloading and have a few more options for better BC copper bullets.

[@georgethemis7922]

So 1080 poison is a viable ethical option despite not breaking down and causing secondary poisoning but lead is not? They have done next to no studies on this subject! Yet they are pushing it. Yes copper is effective but only in a sweet spot and failures do occur. This will complicate hunting and thus produce more wounded animals. This is the reason why they created a minimum calibre for deer as they wanted a reliable stopping power for game animals. Purely in the intrest of a guaranteed ethical kill.

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

It's wrong isn't it mate ! 1 set of rules for them another for us

[@serverlan763]

It's only in Victoria..

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

Yes mate this is only for Victoria

[@B61Mod12]

The ban was defeated

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

Yes I've just heard 👏 how good for all those concerned

[@B61Mod12]

@@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures very pleased yes! Thanks for generating awareness.

[@Vayowin]

Banning lead except for their culling ops and such. Good luck enforcing it

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

Yeah I know but it'd be me that would get caught

[@Hectichunting]

Good video mate Lead wins

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

At distance yes it does, at medium ranges you could comfortably hunt with either

[@Hectichunting]

@@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures That’s true

[@michaelcope2329]

Well whats good for teh goose, see if the lead core bans also goes for their law enforcement agencies and military........crickets. Rules for thee not for me.

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

It's only for us mate.

[@michaelcope2329]

@@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures Thanks for the reply and I'm sorry to hear that, ya'll have it really rough out that way. Take Care and best of luck to you all.

[@bradleytyrrell4417]

Hope they don't i like using what i do do really want to change

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

You and me both mate

[@asanta5390]

Lead still the go.

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

Yeah I've just seen the email from Ada 💪

[@andrewford80]

Gonna need a permit to breathe soon eh!

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

More restrictions are never a good thing

[@muskett4108]

Good presentation. I suspect when far more people start shooting the copper then they will have more game running. Monolithic copper just doesn't do the same job, as it doesn't hold the energy for the expansion required in the same way, especially in the flesh mediums encountered. Years of PB bullet development have got hunting ammunition very effective. Copper just hasn't the ballistic efficiency nor plastic properties of PB. Perfect shot placement will get the result, but less than perfect will show the shortcomings of copper. Again, wildlife won't be thanking anyone for such changes. Frankly, it's cruel.

[@matthewwarren4109]

Barnes ttsx 210 grain .338 win mag zipped straight through 2 sambar never recovered either deer. One was 120 yards and the other was 15 yards. Shot sub moa but shit on sambar in My opinion.

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

Yeah, right, shot placement is key to any projectile. I wonder where you hit them ?

[@theowenssailingdiary5239]

300 mag with 130

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

That would be singing

[@theowenssailingdiary5239]

@@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures Alaskan Ballistics have a series of videos using light for calibre copper bullets. Worth a try I reckon. At least you can be sure they'll expand.

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

@theowenssailingdiary5239 my experience is the lighter the faster in close but loose their velocity quicker so you don't end up gaining anything

[@theowenssailingdiary5239]

@@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures yep for sure. Pretty sure there is a benefit out to a bit beyond 300- cant quite remember. I think they were getting over 3400fps out of the 300. (3650fps actually- ttsx lost it's petals in water jugs) - maybe a bit hot.

[@rowanstrange1756]

Good presentation. However monolithics are poor performer's- narrow wound cavity is always prevalent with a mono - often they lose what little energy they have when they pass through the animal and exit the other side, Limited hydrostatic shock just a heap of shit I reckon. Longrangehunting group did a series on this same subject- terminal ballistic data from 200 yards out to longrange velocities- gel tests were typical of what you would expect from a mono pritty average performance compared to thw eldm-eldx

[@ZebrasSambarhuntingAdventures]

Yeah these are not for long distance