Leagues of Votann NEW Hearthband Detachment Review

[@kiwi1074]

I think if the kahl ability was able to be applied more than once per command phase the detachment would be pretty good.

[@frankduguay2775]

Judgement tokens should have rolled into the army rule where we would get 4x1 as the base rule and then index gives the 4x2 + cp bonus. I truly think that +1 hit on a handful of targets would push this detatchment much closer to oathbound.

[@VotannVersus40K]

Absolutely agree, we are fundamentally playing a detachment void of our hindering army rule - with no compensation

[@realname4430]

I feel like they forgot the part where they made khals ability to only be activated once per turn. I think they fully intended on the synergy being you had a bunch of khals to give out the tokens.

[@maciejkoodziejczak5884]

Improve base WS/BS of all models by 1 across the board and then just change the army rule to choose a single enemy unit at the start of the battle round, that unit is judged, +1 to hit and wound. Is it cool? No. Are we second space marines? Yes. Would this work? Yes.

[@nicholastorgerson125]

I was considering something similar: 2x2 at base with the index giving 4x2. I like the 4x1/4x2 idea better.

[@InglouriousCobb]

Great job examining the detachment! I was very underwhelmed when I read it and was great to hear your opinions on it. Thanks!

[@VotannVersus40K]

Thank you for the kind words! Wish I had more love to give the detachment as I was really looking forward to something new

[@DuckingsBread]

Send this to GW! This must be spoken about!

[@VotannVersus40K]

Spread the word!!

[@andrewjohnson4816]

I made a point of reading and analyzing the detachment before hitting up my usual crowd of KZbinrs for their takes... unfortunately, it seems like we all agree on this letdown of a detachment. I do like your optimism for the codex re-write of our core rule to see this develop into something more viable... But I'm not holding my breath. With 16 days of detachments, most are decent if not super solid options; I was hoping we'd end up in the same ballpark with an option that was at least usable.

[@DuckingsBread]

I reckon that a quick fix would be to make everything not normally hit of 3s hit on threes. Rock and stone!

[@VotannVersus40K]

Bs3 would be nice

[@01eksii]

Honestly, I was hoping fot a grimnyr centric detachment, thta i.e allows to attch him to any unit, and maybe has a couple of army rule buffs to him, and a couple of enhancements and stratagems dedicated to Grimnyr/units led by him. The guy is criminally underused atm, and I already see so many hearthguard in oathbands, this detachment encourages even more spam of the most popular units in our range.

[@AgoristDryad]

I just bought a Grimnyr as my first space dwarf because he loooks sooo coool but 🎉 huzzah 🎉 surprise 🎉 just like my rievers and tactical marines and my fliers and my hierophant: they are considered a handicap to include in a list.

[@FloderPo]

I also feel like this goes against the army rules. I think they should switch the Kahls ability to be able to handout tokens at the end of the movement phase and also it not being limited to 1 per battleround.

[@VotannVersus40K]

It just doesn’t make sense to hand out a single token at the start of the command phase to a visible target

[@Madskiewild]

Are we still paying for our sins of 9th edition?? Anyway, really love how you describe our new detachment.

[@VotannVersus40K]

Thanks bud appreciate it!

[@an93lofdeath]

I'm playing this list tomorrow just to try it out. Not thinking it will do well but we will see.

[@Oncomancer]

Without +1 to wound it's just over at all points. Our lower AP still hurts even against a double judged target

[@SimonProctor]

Remember that a unit of Hearthkyn led by a Kahl has the Kahl keyword.

[@NBeaver-bx4yl]

I 100% have the same opinion. The detachment is absolutely awesome It's just that Votann suck without the bandaid fix they applied to our old detachment. If they made our army rule start the game with 2 targets with tokens and Oathband gave us 2 more. That would already balance things out

[@belrog905]

I just want to point out, the detachment rule does not apply to E. Champion units, it say Einhyr Hearthguard. So a leader does not need to be attached to Hearthguard for them to benefit from the +1 AP. Great video, as always!

[@Orannis01]

With Fury of the Hearth, having a Karl you'll have Lethals on those Plasma too

[@Colonel-WhiteRaven126]

Question: if the Khal is in a unit does the unit get to bonus for this detachment rule? I’ve seen conversations go back and forth about rules like this

[@lnspir3]

I hope the codex isn't coming too soon after seeing this detachment. I think GW struggles with the identity of Votann and I think they need some time to flesh out a proper idea for our (little) space dorfs.

[@Kolobius]

I am so glad that I am not the only one that saw all of these issues. Codex has to change the Judgement Tokens and the army has to go back to BS/WS 3+ in order to make this detachment worth it. Otherwise I freakin love this detachment. I will just never play it at a tournament

[@stefanodebartolo5489]

The rule saying " each model can re-roll a hit of 1" does that meen we have to slow roll the unit. becuse each model can only re-roll a single one.

[@Colonel-WhiteRaven126]

Ok so we still get grudges but so few that it will be noticeable. We lose the CP from the grudges which will be noticeable. All for a focus on HearthGuard that will preform better in the index detachment?

[@Oncomancer]

Pretty much yeah

[@Colonel-WhiteRaven126]

I was hoping for a side grade not a complete down grade

[@Viacheslav_Efimov]

I know this is garbage, but kahl with 10 wariors with ion blaster if they shoot closest target is ap -3 ignor cover. Could drop out of hekaton with reroll wound. They can dipstrike within 6 and throw grenade (also 2 chances of getting cp on5+). Intresting which loadout on heavy weapons are solution for this... P.s. just saying what this exist. So if gw will add extra tokens in army rule this could be very spicy

[@lord17c]

a great break down. Outside looking in, the tokens are too important to us to not be in the detachment you are running. I hope the codex fixes it.

[@MrNobody0369]

Put the -1 to hit on the iron master with a 6 man squad of thunderkin with bolt cannon. I'm tinkering with a list ill share to disc later

[@willsweetin2313]

Oouch. This hurts

[@moodyminis9896]

waiting for the codex to change the army rule to give out x amount of tokens at the start. (imagine this detachment with the starting tokens from ruthless efficiency) i will try this with some sacrificial sagitaurs with bezerks in them......l

[@VotannVersus40K]

Yep all it needed was some token generation to get the ball going

[@01eksii]

Assuming we have a 4x1 JT faction rule, what would be your average run of the mill 1k and 2k lists for this detachment?

[@Oncomancer]

I imagine Volkanite HG would play a huge role. Fishing for Dev wounds

[@realmweavergaming7129]

This was my thoughts as well. Losing access to 4 units judged with 2 tokens isn’t worth it for this detachment. Our army rule needs a rework.

[@StarkMaximum]

The detachment is _fine._ It's annoying that it's so focused around Hearthguard, given that they're already one of our best units so the end result is that there isn't really much of a shift in army desgin (other than "lmao now you don't wanna use tanks, now you only have FOUR good units instead of six!"), but it's playable, has some cool stuff, and in a vacuum is a perfectly playable detachment. The _problem_ is that it can't be judged in a vacuum because GW has been so weird in how they're balancing Votann. The army comes out and they're fucking busted, absolutely must-pick or must-counter. Then they get nerfed hard and literally no one plays them. Then they got a bandaid artifical Juicing Up by cranking up the Judgement Tokens on the index detachment and now they're "fine" solely because at the start of the game you get to pick half your opponent's army to potentially melt over the course of the game. The Votann are absolutely riding on that one fact, because all of the statlines are balanced to undershoot your average unit but overshoot someone with the Judgment Tokens, so you're either living high on the hog or absolutely miserable, no in between. Now the Votann _need_ that rule to be competitive because their units have been balanced around it _and we only have six unique units so all of our fucking army lists are the same!_ There's no experimentation because we _know_ the optimum Votann list! And now this detachment just takes that rule that we've been using as a crutch away so we fall the fuck over! It's been said a hundred times and it's even been said in this video, the codex _needs_ to solve the army's problems. It needs to herald the release of the _other half_ of the Votann range, and Judgment Tokens need to be revamped so Votann don't rely so heavily on them for every single thing. The problem is that if Judgment Tokens go away, Votann statlines are too weak, but if you buff Votann statlines, they become too good with Judgment Tokens. So it's a parasitic relationship they both have with each other where they both sap away at the other. When I played Magic, there was a term called Magical Christmas Land, which was the idea of a combo or deck premise that relies on _everything going perfectly_ and all the stars aligning in your favor. "Bro, you don't get it, if I assemble this creature and this enchantment and leave up counterplay mana and my opponent has no blockers and I manage to get the perfect mana base to assemble this combo across four colors, it _just_ wins the game!". GW seems to balance Votann under the assumption that Magical Christmas Land _is a reality._ All of the statlines are so weak because GW says "well, of course you'll have all the Judgment Tokens on every single important unit at all times and have the perfect firing lanes to get a good shot off without any repercussions, so if we made their numbers too high they'd dominate!", without realizing how many games happen where you just don't get the Judgment Tokens you need because one of the key ways of getting them is _your opponent giving them to you,_ and the other key way is by using a quite frankly mid-tier leader unit. The Votann just need an overall overhaul and I don't know if we're going to get it in time. And no one can say "well it's because GW is biased against xenos", because Space Marines are the face of the franchise and they've been bad for about half the edition, and Imperal Agents came out as a "new army" in the sense that they shoved all the old models they had in a book and sold it to you so you can _kind of_ use them as an army. GW has no favored children anymore, they hate us all pretty much equally.

[@Lykandras]

Tbh with the lack of any interaction with tokens I think they might be gone in the codex. The codex is already written ( all are ) and this detachment is written with codex on mind. They could easily make us a bs 3+ army again and nuke tokens. Would make things so much easier to balance for them. Getting to pick 4 targets in Oathband was always only a bandaid fix für giving us bs 4+ and it lead to making it really difficult to play any other detachments than oathband.

[@Createdbyphilipp]

until the time our codex comes out and they maybe rewrite our tokens the eidtion will most likely be almost over. At least we get some new modells i guess xD

[@VotannVersus40K]

In before last codex of the edition!

[@paulmason2404]

Such a shame this detachment. Its like they forgot what the army rule is. So much is dependent on the judgement tokens the index hands out.

[@VotannVersus40K]

Feels like it was taken out of our future codex where we have new rules… except they forgot we don’t have those rules yet lol

[@paulmason2404]

I think you're right well I hope so else they don't understand how undercooked the faction is without plenty of grudges! We live in hope

[@Zaggy_Grinn]

If all Space Marine detachments gets "Oath of the moment", why shouldn't all Votann get Judgement tokens? This is their whole schtickt

[@Al3xtheMeh]

Better movement shenanigans and token generation would have made this playable. I knew it was never going to be as good as our Index, I was proven extra correct sadly.

[@hawaiianmaniac2070]

I'm not a fan of sacrificing scoring units for my good units to kill better. We needed better.

[@willsweetin2313]

Thanks for trying to be positive! This bummed me out so bad. Plz try and come up with a decent list for us to run 🤓

[@jb_boom]

Came here excited, I left disappointed. It seems my dwarves will stay in the display case.

[@VotannVersus40K]

It’s unfortunate because The detachment rules in a vacuum are quite fun and different from the index. It’s just crippled by the army rule

[@jesskeys5790]

We got coal for Christmas

[@jessierine3981]

Finally, a new way to play lmao! Ive had votann shelved for a few months bc it was just kinda boring, unfortunately.

[@VotannVersus40K]

unfortunately this one might not be the reason to take them off 🤣

[@jessierine3981]

@VotannVersus40K NnnnnoooOOoOOOooOooOOOO! Ah well, back to Flyblown host i guess lol

[@bryanzoll7383]

@@VotannVersus40K Couldn't agree more, there is just zero reason to run this detachment right now over the index one. Maybe we get a surprise codex next year and it adds more character units. Maybe a Kahl that can lead bezerkers??

[@BlueCraneStudios]

This detachment vs death guard would be terrible 🙃.

[@StellaCustos]

No views in 27 seconds, bro fell off

[@VotannVersus40K]

🥵

[@Dfvill]

You have a chance to say "kin fell off" but you ruined it.

[@MrNobody0369]

Idk if it's just me, but you were quiet to me. I had to turn you up.