"Learning the Game 𝗧𝗵𝗿𝗼𝘂𝗴𝗵 Frame Data" Is Not Really a Realistic Idea

[@arachnofiend2859]

"Guy who learns fighting games by opening up dustloop and memorizing all the frame data" would be a good anime character tho. He loses to the protagonist's best friend who presses when he *feels* like he's plus

[@pottedplant37_]

Further pushing the notion that fighting games are actually anime

[@tatzooism]

The protagonist's first tournament win is against frame data guy and features the friendship flashback of playing a set with his childhood friend and doing wake up super in sync with the present to win the final round while frame data guy goes "I WAS HOLDING BLOCK"

[@Deezy79]

This kinda feels like Ping Pong the Animation lol

[@JayK_RLE]

The protagonist hit the EX when she press

[@harrylane4]

Nah, he IS the protagonist, he reaches the top 2 of his big tournament, and the guy who beats him (who later becomes his best friend) teaches him how to believe in the heart of the -cards- game

[@Giraffinator]

Holy shit, printing 30 pages from GameFAQs is probably the most relatable thing I've ever heard Sajam mention.

[@decksteroussnail]

Printing 30 pages from GameFAQs on a library printer and telling them it's for research.

[@iamdopeasfcuk]

these new gamers don't know about those struggles lol

[@Zevox87]

Yeah, I remeber those days. Either you had a prima guide, or you went and found a guide on GameFAQs to print out. Cell phones sure have us spoiled these days by comparison.

[@gleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeinr]

this brought back memories of printing out all the passcodes on yugioh cards to put them in the games, 32 pages i put into a binder

[@mattstringfellow9353]

I remember printing out all 80 pages of the ocarina of time gamefaqs walkthrough and my parents getting pissed

[@IamNster]

To add to this a bit: frame data does not give the full picture. A move could be say -12 on block, but in game it may cause you to be pushed so far back that there is effectively no way you'll be able to get an attack out before they can take measures to defend themselves

[@darrelladams4886]

Exactly. Lots of moves are also safer at certain ranges than what the frame data might tell you.

[@genzo454]

Yup, Heihachi f,F+2 is a prime example. -16 on block, but it's safe against some characters because of the immense pushback.

[@lololllololololol]

Soul Calibur does this on a lot of it's moves. Ivy can be super minus on her 6AA but it pushes back to almost half screen on block so it doesn't matter too much

[@trev0115]

So this is something pretty relatable for me. Is there any sort of "distance" or "units" that a move can reach, or that a move will push back on hit or block? I've gotten into fighting games the past few months but this is the biggest struggle for me. Like... I know my move is fast enough to punish another move that I just blocked, but I have no idea if it'll reach

[@sas911]

@@trev0115 My recommendation is to just training mode it. Helps a lot when testing specific answers/punishes

[@rosemaryac5608]

As a beginner, the reason why learning the game through frame data "feels" so important is because that is how games feel or are discussed. I began playing Strive pretty late (just a few weeks ago), and online's pretty much barren in my region (SEA), so there's no avoiding getting matched with an experienced player, whose game is so tight that if you're looking for an escape, it feels like a huge frame data quiz. Besides, frame data is mentioned quite often whenever someone asks for or discusses game situations, and that might have given the wrong idea to newcomers of the scene. But at the same time, to many new players like me, "frame data" goes way beyond being plus or minus. It also means hitbox/hurtbox allocation, range, invincibility, cancel options, etc. that we conveniently refer to as "frame data" for lack of better vocabulary. So I think some people actually meant to talk about these more than just the raw frame numbers.

[@thechaoshermit]

Kinda unrelated to the core of your comment but if you're from SEA and want to play online, while I can't speak for all SEA countries, most of us from Bangladesh play in Japan and the connections are mostly tolerable

[@vic9844]

Sounds like learning fighting games is rocket science…too deep for a casual like me it seems

[@rosemaryac5608]

@@vic9844 Sadly that's how it feels, exactly what I was talking about. But then, not everything was made for everyone.

[@NeoBoneGirl]

There's a reason why there aren't Theory Fighter tournaments. Knowing frame data is important, but people will always only remember the standout numbers because those are the ones that matter, and knowing on paper how to deal with things doesn't mean you can actually do it. Frame data has gotten less important over time though bc a lot of stuff has been universalized over time (including gatling tables, which are also part of frame data)

[@Uooooooooooooh]

What I find more helpful than frame data on Dustloop as a casual player is the short descriptions under each attack. Knowing the situations where a button or move is best used in and what they're weak to is more useful to me who's just playing with friends or randoms online.

[@NegativeEdge64]

Does anyone remember when we used to believe moves had "Priority" over each other? The idea that if two characters did a similar speed attack at the same time, the move with better "Priority" would win. Looking back now, it's just that one move was a frame or two faster than the other, but we had no idea

[@caliburnleaf9323]

Except some games actually *do* have "priority," where it governs the "clash" mechanic. Most often seen in games with defined button strengths (e.g. heavy > medium > weak), moves of a higher button level will straight-up cancel out the hitbox of lower priority moves, and force a hitbox clash otherwise. In some games, a clash means both players can cancel their move, in others it puts them both into a neutral recovery stance. That said, what we used to ascribe to "priority" is most often simply hitbox/hurtbox interactions, not necessarily a move being faster, but having more disjoint.

[@Copperhell144]

Or, at times, just straight up invincibility since DP's were moves thought to have "very high priority" as well

[@Naarii528]

Sf4 n 5 definitely do have priority systems tho. Mediums take priority over lights, heavy over both. If two attacks hit on the same frame, the attack with higher priority wins.

[@NeoBoneGirl]

The worst side effect this has is people thinking that Attack Level in Guilty Gear games just means attack priority and doesn't govern literally every aspect of the move on hit lol. It's why some people glossed over Sol's 5K change as being nothing more than a decreased chance to win in clashes instead of deleting 5K 6S as a combo lol

[@orionsong1624]

@@SolidFake I'm still mad about flip kicks

[@MajoraZ]

I have at like 1000 hours in Pokken, and for the most part I don't have any frame data memorized: I just know what moves can be punished by what other moves, what common links and strings there are, and what are specific moves/tools that are key to characters toolkits, and work off of that. It's much easier to retain and instinctively act on that information then to have to actively think about how plus or minus something is. I wish that sort of information (common punishes for notable moves in each character's arsenal, bnbs, etc) that's more practical information and tips was more common on resource directories, as opposed to just hard data: Not only do I think that's often more useful, but is WAY more approachable to people first getting into a title/scene.

[@meethepie]

I generally agree, but most of the time it's a lot faster to look at frame data and figure that out at a glance rather than meticulously labbing those interactions. I think the goal of looking at frame data is to quickly form a base understanding of interactions, rather than the end all be all.

[@fgDango]

Based pokken enjoyer

[@xdmon1220]

if somebody reads -5 for example nobody is gonna actually try to remember the number, their gonna remember what that number actually means for gameplay, exactly what you are describing, people are using frame data to do exactly that. also hard data simply includes the most information possible and is completely universal in the game thats why its popular. Of course just common punishes would be helpful but we barely even have full move charts for many games its kinda unlikely that somebody is gonna do the homework for you and figure out what works when you have the tools(framedata) right there.

[@defianthound407]

It's all about the person's preference. Some people may be better at feeling out situations and knowing when to press an others may need data to help with punishes. If your amazing with just feeling out when to press add Frame data on top of that so you can know what the optimal punish may be for the situation. Cause you may be accustomed to punishing in a certain way but there are most likely many more options that are unexplored

[@sneakman9873]

This is exactly how most people use framedata. "Oh I know this is my fastest punish option, I can use this when my opponents does this on block." Having framedata just adds hard numbers to explain how this intersection happens, "My fastest punish combo works on whenever the opponents uses a move that is -5 or more. So thats why this worked." So instead of having to try every option you can get a feel of what works right away without spending so much time testing every move. A person who plays the game is already intuitively playing with framedata in mind regardless of wether or not they know the numbers or even the concept of framedata.

[@sylascole5254]

As someone who has followed you channel since the Nightwing tutorials (bring back Dick for IJ3), I definitely remember testing frame data by buffering jump with the CPU set to block all and jump to get an idea if a move was plus or not.

[@Hatharo]

I still do this on day 1 whenever a new game comes out and none of the framedata is out yet.

[@sylascole5254]

@Francisco Cerpa Nightwing was in an awkward spot in terms of design and mechanics, I loved him as a character, and I also really enjoyed Blue Beetle, who probably sits the closest to his replacement. NRS seemed like they were done with stance characters for the most part, seeing as BB had very few (but notable) differences between blade and gun, and WW received an entire rework to have the random trait instead of being a stance character. But uh staff Nightwing had some scrubby AF shit with zoning with ground pound (I remember this beating launch day FTD), and the left/right mix with b2 flip kick lmao. He was super fun though, decent odds he returns in IJ3 I think.

[@defianthound407]

Thanks for making this video. My friend got into GGxrd an couldn't stand losing to me. So I showed him dustloop. It was an awful call on my part now he thinks I somehow memorized all of dustloop an he's fighting against a God.

[@JadenDaJedi]

I'm probably a weird exception but I play a game called Supreme Commander Forged Alliance and I have spent about 4-5x more hours looking at the unit stats and theorycrafting how they might match up, compared to how many hours I've spent actually playing the game. Sometimes the math is just fun.

[@duelme1234]

Hey man, to some people the lab is fun, glad to see someone else like that here :)

[@maxrusty3596]

Well tbh a rts is a lot different than a fighting game. With theorycrafting and crunching numbers being much more practically useful than in fighting games.

[@aganaom1712]

the only frame data i know about my characters are the ones other people tell me when they try to justify bitching about them

[@mirror2922]

Tekken 7 teaches the importance of frame data, but the game sense to contextualize what that data means all comes from playing the game tbh. Thats how I'd like to think of it, it just shapes/ and gives you a better perspective of the in game scenario.

[@nateolison7553]

Yup. Totally agree. I think game design changes the context of frame data and Tekken has a perfect balance imo. The existence of ss makes it such a fun science to play with! 👌🏿

[@MrBoltstrike]

I had a longer post, but Sajam says it all in the video. I only look into the data when I get stuck on something or find myself getting abused in a specific situation. Usually as Nago, and almost always when I get stuck in the corner. I just need to know what moves I can use to fight my way out, or if I genuinely have to sit and wait to punish some kind of overhead. Frame data just helps speed up the trial and error process.

[@liamatte]

Now I'm a nerd for frame data, but in a match I'm not like. "According to my CaLcUlAtIoNs, I should be plus 7 here, thereby meaning if they press their fastest move I can beat it with a more powerful move due to their being negative and get a more damaging punish with better scaling!" It's more like "I'm plus lol"

[@snitchbug]

“i’m going to hit this button thats plus and then mash a combo starter and then delete you if you try to hit a button” is all you need

[@liamatte]

@@snitchbug Ye, but then there's always the "He MASHED on my PLUS FRAMES?!?!"

[@SuperT380]

the extent of my in the moment knowledge of frame data beyond jabs: "this will make me plus/negative if its blocked/on-hit" that's it

[@Imanifestchaos]

I can probably relate this to my experience in combat sports. He noticed that I was the type of fighter that thinks about all interactions and have all the ideas on what I could probably do how I should have done and etc etc. He told me to stop doing that and just fight. At first, I interpreted it as LMAO DONT THINK JUST PUNCH BRO YEAH. Then I realized he meant to first know how to fight how everything looks within the ring. How every twitch of a muscle, how every spacing of their feet, how their hands are positioned and how that all flows together with each other, THEN start thinking. Know how the fight works and frame and contextualize your thinking and ideas through that lens.

[@JFLunch]

Unless it's for a specific reason, I don't even remember the actual numbers of most things. I just remember if I'm advantaged, disadvantaged, or even lol

[@t1red3yez27]

The only reason I can think of people defending the removal of frame data is people wanting to increase the longevity of the game or for the game to seem more complicated Like for Tekken ~ alot of the fanbase was against the addition of frame data just because they were used to playing off of "feel" and felt like frame data would remove most of the mystique from the game.

[@isshintheguy4172]

The take i got from this is that frame data is useful as a troubleshooting tool, which means its almost useless if you don't run into a problem beforehand. Consequently, FGC newcomers can set their priorities wrong when learning a new FG and that might demotivate them when they understand nothing.

[@FayeHunter]

Ah hell yeah i've spent 2 months on Stage 9 and i am not stopping.

[@genzo454]

Yeah, the two most important things to learn in FGs are: what your character is and isn't capable of, and that you need to give yourself time to learn. Frame data helps with the first thing there, but it's only a part of it. Knowing what moves the opponent is doing is nice, but you also need to know _why_ your opponent is doing those moves. Basically, frame data only gives you, well, the _data_ , and you also need the theory in order to make an informed decision/conclusion.

[@MrXXVII]

I love how both Sajam and Brian_F made the same video with the exact same points and they still try to repel the rumors they are the same person.

[@macdrizzae]

That anecdote about printing out an entire GameFAQs and getting yelled at for using all the ink awakened a visceral memory for me.

[@jameswashere187]

Bruh back when Smash Ultimate players could only analyze invitational footage I said that theres no way Zero could know that Young Link is s tier and everyone got mad at me, his method was literally trying to go frame by frame through a stream to read the data.

[@brokenwing51]

Imma be honest, When I was in the navy I did print a 30 page game faqs on a game so I could see how to get past the game when I went on the ship, and it was the work printer. I to this day do not regret my dumb decision

[@thotacon]

Its like learning music. You could learn all the music theory you want but without the physical practice on an instrument you have no music.

[@StubenhockerElite]

I learn by the "good Button/Bad Button" metric

[@sneakman9873]

I don't think a lot of people realize they are already playing with framedata in mind, even if they don't know the numbers. Knowing when you are safe, and when to punish is a core skill of any game. Framedata just puts a hard number ans can help remove possible guesswork. Most players are already playing with framedata in mind even if they don't know what framedata is.

[@orionsong1624]

the frame data in that page also doesn't show stuff like attack cancels and hitboxes. Also LoL-style MOBAs can sometimes be more annoying to learn than FGs considering all the different mechanisms in those games

[@gwen9939]

What's particularly funny about the LoL example is that a few casters at one point would call out what they called "Losing to the shopkeeper" because pro players were buying suboptimal items. Most of the time pro players just play the game and buy whatever, and the teams and orgs hires analysts to go over optimal builds and are like "this is what you need to buy".

[@deddrz2549]

Dustloop has pretty good descriptions of moves that include frame data, hitboxes, and cancels if they are abnormal for that move type.

[@no_nameyouknow]

The term frame data, while accurate, seems to trigger a lot of people. It's the same information you learn through playing, it's just more accurate and efficient to have the information written down somewhere, rather than each person figuring this stuff out in the lab or through trial and error. Shit, most players still just learn through trial and error, try a move, it get's blocked, try a jab after, it get's countered, ok that move is punishable on block. The "data" just gives you that answer accurately and upfront, if you choose to use it. I get it, when I first started getting serious about this stuff, I was like what the fuck does frame data mean, what does plus frames mean, etc.

[@kirbdini]

Haha I used to print pages upon pages!!! Bass tabs and game faqs. Frame data is alot to take in for someone who isnt a fan of numbers. On SNES I had the concept of "if I do this and it's blocked, I'm getting hit" just playing the game a lot makes it come naturally at some point. I'll never be able add all my frames up while subtracting the opponents.

[@axis8396]

This is very true especially when things are largely homogeneous like for something like Tekken you generally have your 10 frame jab punish, 12 frame chunky combo, and 15 frame launcher but if something is -10 but recovers crouching then jabs will whiff since they're high or maybe the move just has absurd pushback and even though it's -200 you're on the other side of the planet and can only do a WR move or something or other matchup specific things like getting launched by twin pistons against Kazuya for doing a -13 low that other characters probably don't get that good of a punish for

[@orionsong1624]

there's also moves that evade some highs in addition to the moves that evade all highs

[@strategist9]

I learn the game by feeding the source code directly into my brain.

[@kinginthenorth1437]

I like having numbers instead of just being like "looks fast" or "feels slow" but people should just learn the way they want to learn and not worry about how other people want to learn.

[@storiesat1]

The funny thing is, there is another game that I play that I actually look at a frame data level that's not a fighting game. In Diablo II, the internal clock of the game is set to 24 fps (even in the remake, despite the surface of the game running more). To determine how kuch hitstun, blockstun, attack speed, and cast speed everyone has, you run how many frames the animation takes. Increases to any of these aren't actually a percentage increase like the game tells you, but rather a benchmark to tell the game to speed up the animation for a frame. So, for example, if you have 100% faster cast on a sorceress, you aren't actually casting the spell at twice the speed per se, but casting the spell several frames faster than if you didn't have that. The endgame builds for this game are designed with all of this in mind, to hit certain benchmarks, but even still, I didn't know about this until only a few years ago, despite the game being 20 years old. For most players, not knowing the details of this will have no impact, and they can just collect gear that makes them faster. The players who know about this typically just look it up, rather than memorizing it, and then go about their day. So despite frame data being a core, fundamental mechanic of how the game runs, people learn about it generally way after they start playing the game. But my same friends who didn't need to know this seem to think frame data is holy in a fighting game. TLDR: There are other games that have frame data as a core mechanic, and people who play casually don't need to worry about it. Likewise, they don't need to really worry about it in fighting games.

[@rubo8925]

After painstakingly learning these games since last November I’ve officially packed this genre in. It’s a pity the community was probably my favorite part, content creators such as this fella and learning as I go but fuck me, the juice isn’t worth the squeeze so I’m off to learn IRL shit. Thanks for the hours of entertainment homie🤜🏻🤛🏻 and to all of you folks that don’t spend your time with FGs tilted af, you’re more man than me😅

[@themangomanjuice]

Very insightful, very nice video.

[@christopherwest671]

When you learn a game you slowly develop heuristics and shorthands to simplify the experience and make decisions to aid in the learning process. Which psychos are going about their new player experience expecting to read a spreadsheet with no in-game experiences to draw upon and expecting to learn let alone win? That being said - it’s still incredibly important to have the tools and abilities to move past those “rules of thumb” that you develop and break down those situations to actually improve. Few great fighting game players played entirely on instinct in the past; you just didn’t see their labbing process. Few great fighting players of today spend all their time in the lab and on dustloop. FYI if you are the kind of player that wants to spreadsheet a lot first (like me) and lab after the first few hours of a game. It’s worth knowing things like the average reaction time of a player in frames and what option selects exist (Leo DP on block stun being the basic example). I definitely stunted a lot of my learning in the beginning my not understanding how some OS’s work and thinking that my opponents were making high risk guesses more often than they were.

[@capefeather]

Please KZbin, I'd just like to watch the video

[@hijster479]

I agree that learning frame data completely isn't necessary to be successful, but in certain games it's certainly an asset. Knowing the full frame data can clue you in on who has advantage in more complex interactions. Backdashes (and even spot dodges or sidesteps) are a good example, as the response after success depends on recovery frames. In general your minus (or even punishable) after a backdash in okizeme and pressure situations, but heavies and even certain mediums might be slow enough to leave you at advantage, especially if your character has a fast backdash. Knowing the recovery frames can be the difference between getting a punish and getting punished. Leaving it at "That moves plus, and that moves minus." can leave you underprepared for certain situations.

[@Lorenzo108Rulez]

damn he's right

[@doomtron4]

I feel like the reason this has been such a hot topic the last few years is that the situations where frame data is relevant are more frequent. A lot of modern games have had relatively slow movement and a larger focus on frametrap/throw mixups that require you to poke out to escape. When blocking doesnt push the opponent back much , and you cant backdash or otherwise evade, you do need to know where the minus frames are and how fast your button needs to be to get your turn back.

[@riffcrypt8438]

I mean what ranks are you talking about? You don't need to know the numbers, you need to know when to poke, when to punish, etc. Fundamentals. All that can be learned through matchup experience or a little training mode lab work. You never need to explicitly know, "oh there is a 5 frame opening here so I can poke" you just need to know what your go to fast button is and through a half dozen trial and error experiments that can be done in 2 minutes figure out how you can handle a situation. People stay trying to overcomplicate this stuff.

[@doomtron4]

@@riffcrypt8438 I never said frame data was required to solve these problems, only that the situations in which frame data is useful seem to be coming up more frequently in a lot of modern games.

[@jpVari]

It helped me to have words for the few concepts I remembered about fighting games from childhood (certain moves are strong but dangerous) and I still like it to check certain things but it's just a tool like you said. I don't get how it can bug people. But certain people are perceived and knowledgeable and when they say things people repeat those things. Imo.

[@HorizonEdge]

After jumping back into tekken 7 ive noticed some things, it's like one of the only fighting games Ive played where it feels like you have to know your opponents character as well as your own in order to do well at a mid-high level, which includes their frame data.

[@t1red3yez27]

I agree with this halfway Most if my Tekken knowledge comes from playing the game from so many years and just being able to recognise the moves from seeing them so much Tag 2 - Tekken 7 is the only time I realistically started using frame data but I didn't need it

[@keystonelyte]

It's really just recognition of what TYPE of moves can be punished with which of your moves, and then figuring out the outliers. For instance, most hopkicks can be punished with a 13 frame move. There are some characters that have a killer 13 frame punish, so this is important. Most launching lows (snake edges) can be launched on block with time to spare. You don't have to know the frame data for every character. You need to play the game and pay attention.

[@Copperhell144]

Tekken 7 has a very generous input buffer on its attacks. So punishes that in most fighters would be "optimal to get but kinda tough and not really required for mid-level players" like jab punishes, suddenly become mandatory, or at the very least they are free damage you just left out if you don't get your punish.

[@mr.madhatter5538]

you are 100% correct. It's a supplement to learn how to deal with certain situations better. That's how I at least use it.

[@darthsynchronic]

Finally a video that we can understand about FRAME DATA in fighting games...

[@BlueDragon7100]

Wish I'd seen this a year ago. I spent so long trying to learn DBFZ through frame data alone, it took me playing Strive a long time to understand that you have to play a game to learn a game.

[@demonkingnobunaga]

Y'all not ready when imma pull up to evo with them frame data flashcards it's over

[@BAGELMENSK]

If you know excatly how many frames are in a move, but take 20 frames to actually input it or decide to input it, your knowledge is moot.

[@Raxyz_0]

In every game, not just fighting ones, I'm always relying more on knowledge checks that raw skill. In TF2 I knew every chokepoint to put a sentry as Engi, every flank route as a Scout and every blind spot as a Demo. In Dota 2 I knew pretty much how every Orb effect (back when those were a thing) interacted with each other and most synergies with heroes and items. In fighting games I usually do look up frame data to know which buttons I can use to challenge and whatnot. The notion of learning the game exclusively through these is still nonsense to me. Those are only ever extras that you get after getting a base understanding of any game, and you still need to improve upon them by playing and making decisions on the fly. Even for someone who relies _heavily_ in them you still cannot learn exclusively (or even mostly) through it, it's only ever an extra. I never really understood this notion.

[@Emiridian]

Maybe the reason it’s a thing for people to say “learn fighting games through frame data” is because most of the people who play fighting games are not hardcore players who have tons of legacy skill. Like for me, Dbfz was the first fighting game where I actually got into the fgc, looked up tech, combos, etc… And because I lacked a lot of understanding of what is actually *good* in any given fighting game, the frame data ends up being something through which I can “learn the game”. It’s definitely a tool to assist the learning process of grinding matches and gaining experience, but without frame data… I would’ve felt completely lost.

[@shman5000o]

Ngl way back when I first started playing FGs a lot more "seriously" I use to believe that knowing frame data was a MUST to even stand a chance to above average players. But all it ever lead to is further frustrating me because I'd be convinced that my move/sequence shouldn't be "disrespected" but then get proven dead wrong and I'd just be salty thinking "WHY DID HE DO THAT? THE FRAME DATA TOLD ME IT SHOULD BE MY TURN" But forget to take into account several other variables that can greatly change the benefits/values of a move/sequence. It sounds silly, but sometimes with certain moves/sequences frame data is more like a "suggestion" than an absolute fact I've come to learn. Also, I've come to learn that how strong someone's "mind games" are turn out to be another factor that can greatly affect how one views frame data.

[@jesse76th96]

I agree with you but I do think frame data is fact, it's data. But it's not a absolute requirement to get good at the game. Frame data does make it easier to know what does what and that's a important thing for serious players but not so much casuals

[@shman5000o]

@@jesse76th96 oh yeah, didn't mean to disregard that frame data is a fact. And there is instances where it is a hard fact ( i.e. blocking a dragon punch, unless there's a unique game mechanic that allows you to not get punished of course) I was just talking about mainly how important it is to contextualize certain frame data for certain interactions. Like, how certain a move I throw out can be technically "negative" but do a lot of pushback that if the opponent does their quickest, but short reaching, move they can likely still lose cause of spacing even tho I was negative. Know what I mean?

[@jesse76th96]

@@shman5000o yup I agree 100%

[@johnliu3364]

The Original Ford Model T did not have a speedometer or odometer. Enthusiasts talk about how driving restored Model T's without those dials is part of the charm. Similar to frame data, you don't look at the odometer or speedometer to learn how to drive. They help you understand what's going on with the car.

[@micahonline_]

frame data for me has definitely been helpful in wrapping my head around certain concepts but of course I wouldn’t be able to even begin understanding said concepts if I didn’t at least hop into training mode test it out and then think about how the frame data applied

[@Mr.Faust3]

Studying only frame data is like a guy who trains for 40 years In a remote mountain then a guy who fights rando street thugs

[@kobep206]

I hate how League of Legends is the "most popular game" in the world depending on you ask and yet the game is just as, if not more, obtuse to learn to play even casually but fg weirdos say "remove training mode and frame data because it scares casual scrubs who are bad at the game and will suck even if you give them numbers, lets just make games more fun like back in the old days"

[@matheuszache7943]

Usually learning framedata comes on demand for me when I train fighting games. Hey, I got hit X amount of times after blocking Y setup. Go look into it, it's plus Z and I can do A B or C depending on situation 1 or 2. That's how it goes. I guess top players just remember more, because they are more experienced. So exposing oneself to as many situations as possible allows you to absorb information without actually sitting on a desk, opening dustloop and looking at numbers. When I first played NRS games, I didn't reach for memorizing every single frame data on my character's strings or normals, it just happened after I played for some of weeks.

[@guestguest9051]

Used to know someone in the arcade days who was basically a walking Tekken 6 library. You just ask this guy what's the frame data of the move and he just knows. Doesn't make him the strongest players and in Tekken, a lot of those moves are pretty redudant but it's still impressive regardless.

[@masterofdoom5000]

Frame data is just a faster means to the same answer, we're just skipping the caveman period.

[@tk_yohan]

that's learning tekken in a semi-high level is rough. you will be left behind if you dont follow the cycle of watching interactions happen and labbing the situation with it's hundreds of commands for each character

[@forbidd3n66]

Hilarious thumbnail as always

[@lycanthropic1122]

The GameFAQs anecdote is hilariously accurate.

[@kingroosta]

In general I'm a "feel player", but I definitely do check which of my buttons is the fastest, which ones are plus, and which ones are punishable.

[@Dreikoo]

I do the opposite of learning the frame data through the game. I double-check stuff later of course but I usually get a feel for most things by just playing.

[@jasonwhigham335]

That thumbnail is cracking me up

[@Krackatoa]

As a walking personification of fighting game matlab please listen to sajam

[@unamusedrohan1666]

"Why am I laughing? Apologies, my friend. It's just that as a Mind player, this illogical practicing of yours... well, I find it amusing. What's that? Play a set with you? Not necessary. I've already calculated all the optimal punishes in my head. Mmm... perhaps a few more DPs next time..."

[@graveaxel3607]

The friend I play the most in person doesn't look up any frame data, nor does he understand it, and just plays by feel. I like to look up specific moves so I can figure out an optimal punish on commonly used moves. Both play styles work, sometimes trying to be too optimal distracts me from just playing the game, while my friends twerkin on me lmao

[@Bober909]

Didn't Daigo pull out a framedata book mid-match when he was trying to deal with Rose's slide back in early SFIV? This is old lore, but maybe someone can confirm this. His case was a bit different with Arcade/console characters not being released at the same time, so he wasn't familiar with any of the moves yet I think.

[@LinNick]

4:37 LOL that’s how I tried learning league

[@kobep206]

If people who played fighting games ventured into other genres (and werent scared of losing immediately and not getting instant gratification every 60 seconds) we would have better fighting game discussion and content. I really enjoy how Zaferino teaches Street Fighter concepts and I also enjoy watching him learn Valorant

[@itunesdude88]

[@toberone5158]

While this is all true, I really value having a strong punish game. Knowing the difference between -3 and -5 in sfv for example means a lot to me.

[@Zetact_]

But then there's characters like SFV Dictator where you can't even fight the guy without memorizing his frame data.

[@trapdoorbeaver]

no such thing as -2 change my mind, its always your turn frame data shmame data

[@shman5000o]

-2 is just a social construct that we all naively bought in tbh smh WAKE UP SHEEPLE

[@janematthews9087]

"You're always plus if you're not a bitch!" -Lythero doing Android 16's Heavy in neutral.

[@vstalbain]

I haven't seen these arguments, so pardon if I'm speculating a bit...but I think what people might mean about "learning through frame data" is that "frame data seems to be a lot more important in new games." I played a lot of ST and Vampire Savior when I was younger, and man, I could tell you almost nothing in terms of frame data for these games. In older games, moves are almost always plus, or attack sequences are so long that even if you're minus, you're not in danger. Compare that to say, Granblue Fantasy Versus, where lots of things are minus...but SOME things are plus. Now, you have to know what's plus, because the game seems to expect you to notice that and use that information to take your turn back. Granted, there are some general truths: most light attacks are plus (but not all of them), while medium and heavy attacks are minus (but not all of them). Some special moves are plus on block, but their EX version is minus...except for moves where it's the other way around. And, if you don't know this information, you could be just sitting in block stun for the rest of your life, getting chipped and thrown and chipped and thrown. And then, furthermore, because moves are varying levels of minus frames, now you have to think about whether you have a move that's both fast enough and long enough range to beat those various moves, or else they're effectively still plus. But, since there's lots of exceptions to these rules, you just have to know, or you're just guessing in the matchup (though admittedly, the guessing is exacerbated by delay netcode; it's hard to tell if you made the right guess when you can't time the move properly). Again, I'm just guessing, but I wonder if the people that say that are talking about this particular feeling, or games that do this.

[@Imanifestchaos]

I feel like frame data existed before but it's just hard to get and commonly just hilariously lopsided that you can just hand wave and eyeball stuff. So people just feels it wasn't present you know

[@nkirmath8621]

Dammit, I spent hours looking at this and thinking about the game through frame data only to fry my brain when I came back. 😫

[@bowpow1]

People who tell you that you can learn the game through frame data are distracting you from looking into the real info which is hitbox/hurtbox locations.

[@harry_hydrogen]

As someone who’s brain only works on numbers. All fighting games I play I learned from frame data.

[@dxthhy]

PerfectLegend was trying to get into brawlhalla on stream and wanted to go pro, im high rank on brawl and wanted to help genuinely, so i gave him some general tips and told him to just focus on them and then improve on that. he INSISTED i gave him the frame data of every weapons moves and i told him “ knowing the frame data strictly genuinely does not matter” ESPECIALLY at his skill level it meant literally nothing to him. and after about 10 mins back and forth of me and someone else telling him that’s not how to improve, he got his frame data. he dropped the game maybe a few days later, stuck in gold.

[@jesse76th96]

Maybe he didn't like the game. It is funny though but there's no harm in giving someone frame data. It's the fact that people that want to "go pro" in a game they never played don't look at it as fun as other dedicated players. He probably didn't see a point in playing or got too frustrated because it's not a traditional fighter he's used to playing.

[@catwithorb]

Great video, very insightful Sajam. But I couldn't help that notice that you claim to not be Terry Typhoon in the past and yet here as you move around as you speak, your hair does the exact same thing as Goldlewis Dickinson's idle animation. A few strands fall down, and you run your fingers through your hair and fix it, JUST LIKE a certain Typhoon-tossing trickster I know. Coincidence? Impossible.

[@Za_Phantom]

Why learn numbers when you could just fuck around and find out

[@nate5490]

Sajam quick question, is possible to learn fighting games by reading the frame data but also getting a visual representation of what the move looks like and a description of what it does and what its use for? Do u think u when learning fighting games u HAVE to see, play ect.. In order firmly grasp the game?

[@TheJbrown60]

gamefaqs was kinda wild

[@roarkviolet1912]

Behemoth Typhoon go brrrr

[@RemiAutor]

I think everybody involved here is strawmanning everybody else involved here. Yes, of course nobody opens up the frame data and downloads it into their brain and are now suddenly ready to beat the pros at Evo, but don't pretend that if you have played 200 different Kusoge Games you can't read a Frame Data list and get a feel for a new game you pick up for the first time and know from looking at some hitboxes and + - Frame Data and immediately know which moves are safe to throw out in neutral and beat the tar out of everybody who didn't bother to open up a game's wiki. I sure do that every time I play a new game for the first time and it saves me SO much time I would otherwise spend sucking ass and having no idea what I'm doing on fightcade. Of course I need to build the muscle memory of combo strings before I can do them effectively, but reading the BnB string saves me time I would otherwise spend not even knowing what to do.

[@LettuceGod1]

The ones on the shelf r heat

[@suburiboy]

… except in tekken tho. In tekken people say that even at a beginner level, you need punishes for like 5 different levels of frame advantage. It TBH sucks that there is so much less actually useful advice for beginning at tekken than for other games. It’s almost like the good players don’t actually want noobs to get gud.

[@17Master]

These FGC Boomer takes are getting wilder and wilder. Keep em coming Sajam, even non-FG players can get a kick of this.

[@SkyTowerKurogane]

This whole discussion is so dumb. This video could be 2:20 long and there you go, discussion ended.

[@Voxoono]

I like frame data becuase of the data not because of the frames, if i wanted to know about frames i would just look at the data for the frames without considering it "frame data" smh

[@maxrusty3596]

Bascially tell me which moves are plus and which moves can be punished and thats about all the data u need.

[@ShouVertica]

You shouldn't learn through, but you should respect it. Otherwise you don't know what's safe, risky, or not to be used.

[@zaychavitch5317]

Math: Not even once

[@dawsan2691]

I think fighting games should start adding random critical hits into the games

[@AndrewRKenny]

Frame data is just a buzzword for most lol. I understand where the confusion/perception comes from though.

[@ivansotelo4622]

Also not fun for most of the playerbase, I would make a gamemode that uses these ideas though, but that would take too much time I guess

[@degarri7995]

I think frame data is a tool, it’s helpful if you know the game already.

[@griin6]

warning: frame data good/bad tribalism going on in the comments

[@niwona_]

Come back to GameFAQs